monkiie wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina/Magicka imbalances, and Stam Sorc's overpoweredness specifically, aren't limited to no-proc Cyrodiil. One "medium attack" from a Stamina Sorcerer in BGs can result in simultaneous damage from:

• Medium Attack
• Crystal Weapon
• Frenzied Momentum (Vateshran 2h proc)
• Way of Fire proc
• Ashen Grip proc
• Weapon Enchant proc

Even with full proc sets and against a non-glass cannon opponent, the Crystal Weapon can hit for around 4-4.5k damage, with Frenzied Momentum being roughly the same. And all of that damage comes with 0 in-combat GCDs being required, so it can obviously either be stacked with a simultaneous Dawnbreaker, or come immediately after a Dizzying Swing or unblockable Streak stun. Literal 1-shots are very much a thing, but even if you do survive their initial burst + stun, all from a singular GCD, they'll have execute(s) available - including one that's AOE and undodgeable.

The burst in no-CP Cyrodiil might not be as high right now, without Vate 2h and the other burst procs, but it's still going to be extremely powerful. And some other classes will be even less able to retaliate without procs, should they survive the first burst attempt.

With significantly increased healing and baseline stats, proc-DOTs have been pretty heavily devalued, which makes this silly first-person-shooter style of gameplay even more powerful. Coincidentally, Stamina Sorcerer's wholly unmatched mobility makes it stronger still.

This is a complaint about a specific build. The only thing unique to stamsorc is crystal weapon. This could be recreated by any class using elemental weapon.

Mobility and sustain is all a stamsorc has. Crystal is good, but no better than any other spammable. It is used as delayed burst, but isn't as good as any other classes delayed burst.

Stamsorc has crap healing and in no cp tests it is good, but not as good as stamcro, stamden or magsorc.

Crystal weapon is better than every other spammable because its so versatile and overloaded. Have you even looked at what crystal weapon does compared to ele weapon? Judging by your take that any class can use crystal weapon by using ele weapon is a clear no to me. Stam sorc always had mobility and sustain but now they also have the most versatile delayed burst AND medium armor/stamina builds are heavily overperforming compared to magicka builds because of the new armor changes and no proc environment.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

monkiie wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina/Magicka imbalances, and Stam Sorc's overpoweredness specifically, aren't limited to no-proc Cyrodiil. One "medium attack" from a Stamina Sorcerer in BGs can result in simultaneous damage from:

• Medium Attack
• Crystal Weapon
• Frenzied Momentum (Vateshran 2h proc)
• Way of Fire proc
• Ashen Grip proc
• Weapon Enchant proc

Even with full proc sets and against a non-glass cannon opponent, the Crystal Weapon can hit for around 4-4.5k damage, with Frenzied Momentum being roughly the same. And all of that damage comes with 0 in-combat GCDs being required, so it can obviously either be stacked with a simultaneous Dawnbreaker, or come immediately after a Dizzying Swing or unblockable Streak stun. Literal 1-shots are very much a thing, but even if you do survive their initial burst + stun, all from a singular GCD, they'll have execute(s) available - including one that's AOE and undodgeable.

The burst in no-CP Cyrodiil might not be as high right now, without Vate 2h and the other burst procs, but it's still going to be extremely powerful. And some other classes will be even less able to retaliate without procs, should they survive the first burst attempt.

With significantly increased healing and baseline stats, proc-DOTs have been pretty heavily devalued, which makes this silly first-person-shooter style of gameplay even more powerful. Coincidentally, Stamina Sorcerer's wholly unmatched mobility makes it stronger still.

This is a complaint about a specific build. The only thing unique to stamsorc is crystal weapon. This could be recreated by any class using elemental weapon.

Mobility and sustain is all a stamsorc has. Crystal is good, but no better than any other spammable. It is used as delayed burst, but isn't as good as any other classes delayed burst.

Stamsorc has crap healing and in no cp tests it is good, but not as good as stamcro, stamden or magsorc.

Crystal weapon is better than every other spammable because its so versatile and overloaded. Have you even looked at what crystal weapon does compared to ele weapon? Judging by your take that any class can use crystal weapon by using ele weapon is a clear no to me. Stam sorc always had mobility and sustain but now they also have the most versatile delayed burst AND medium armor/stamina builds are heavily overperforming compared to magicka builds because of the new armor changes and no proc environment.

It lasts 2 secs longer and gives you 1k pen... Its a class ability, but I fail to see what is so OP about it? Jabs for instance snare and major buff. Combined with potl a lot easier to line up IMO. Crystal weapon isn't bugged anymore so has no distinctive advantage. You think it's better than blast bones? Shalks? I think that's a pretty crazy statement.... My stamcro blast bones tooltips nearly as high as my dB and it is aoe and applies major defile😂 crystal weapon tooltips as high dizzy swing...

To specify that: Crystal Weapon's tooltip is only 84% of Dizzy Swing tooltip. And with that it exactly falls in line with other instant class spammables like Surprise Attack.

SHOW wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

To specify that: Crystal Weapon's tooltip is only 84% of Dizzy Swing tooltip. And with that it exactly falls in line with other instant class spammables like Surprise Attack.

So crystal weapon is single target, with spammable tooltip.

On that note, how grossly overpowered (in PvP) is AOE sub assault and blast bones?

It's like a free Dawnbreaker every 3 secs LOL

(and don't say "but it's delayed, it's not a spammable", because that makes it even stronger in PvP lol)

forzajuve212 wrote: »

The decision to go forward with no-proc Cyro for 6-7 months has truly shown the lack of balance at a fundamental level, both class wise and resource wise (Stam vs Magicka). Particularly, Stam Sorc has come to dominate as the most popular class for a number of reasons, overperforming in dueling, solo, and group play. Lets take a deeper look at the the two layers on imbalance in ESO PvP:

1. Class Imbalance

This will focus specifically on Stamina sorcerer, due to the sheer popularity and success of the spec in no-proc Cyrodiil. I could go into magicka sorc or a number of other imbalances, but many people have already addressed these topics at length.

- Crystal weapon has a number of problems. Crystal weapon acts as a delayed burst like shalks/deep breath AND a spammable as it lasts 4 seconds so you can decide when it goes off in a huge 4 second window. It can be combined with ele weapon, it reduces armor by 1000, gives sustain, procs on heavy attacks, doesn't have to be procced in melee range, and hits harder than crystal frag, a mag morph with a clear visual queue. This ability is plainly overloaded and overperforming in PvP. Combining with dawnbreaker and spin to win, and you have a class with strong aoe, single target, and execute capabilities with no effective way to mitigate this damage unless you are a stam build running major evasion yourself.

- Dark deal gives insane sustain, allowing stam sorcs to uniquely maximize damage in ways that other stam and mag classes (other than mag sorc) don't have access to. Combine this with extremely limited set options, and stam sorcs essentially leapfrog ahead of other specs as they can choose their gear, enchants, and mundus build around the foundation of having that ability in their pocket.

- Major + minor expedition + streak lets sorcs choose when and where to fight in ways that cannot be countered (see Nightblade cloak by comparison, which can be broken by aoe.) The streak morph, which is disproportionately used by stam sorcs over mag sorcs (who tend to use ball of lightning to mitigate ranged abilities) gives a powerful aoe cc and an escape mechanism all in one.

- Major evasion gives 20% reduced damage to aoe (with the nerfs to major protection, it is now a double major protection). This allows only one spec (5 medium users) to gain insane mitigation that light and heavy armor users (aka, mainly magicka builds) do not have access to. Combine this with most magicka classes predominately having aoe in their kit (mag warden and mag cro for example) and you have the near-death of most magicka specs other than mag sorc and the niche templar pug healer. In no-CP, the efficiency and value of major evasion skyrockets as CP mitigation disappears while Major Evasion retains the same flat value. Try playing solo in Ravenwatch and you'll enjoy getting multiple crystal weapon dawnbreaker nukes in your death recap. Although major evasion is available to all stam builds, when you add this in the context of everything I've mentioned above, it becomes clear why we're seeing mainly stam sorcs dominating in the meta beyond other stam classes.

2. Resource Imbalance (Stamina vs Magicka)

The recent armor changes has provided a window into how ZOS believes balancing should be, and how that contrasts with the reality on the ground in PvP.

In justifying giving Medium armor no penalties and only bonuses, with light and heavy getting penalties, Wheeler stated that "Light Armor has much more freedom with most of its Stamina costs but is less effective with outright soaking damage. Heavy Armor is now slower but bulkier, and Medium Armor is more slippery but with less sharp bonuses as it has no drawbacks."

Really? More slippery but with less sharp bonuses? Would you consider Major Evasion, reducing aoe damage by 20% and only accessible to medium armor users as "more slippery?" What is slippery about 20% raw flat mitigation that is inaccessible to other armor types and disproportionately punishes magicka classes, many of who (mag warden, mag necro, and mag templar) have no choice but to run core damage abilities that deal aoe?

If Light and Heavy armor have such sharp bonuses, why are their armor skills pitifully weak by comparison? Outside of magicka sorcs who specifically have to build to use shields, annulment is rarely if ever used due to its small size. Don't even get me started on unstoppable, which at this point probably is the most unused ability in the game. Wheeler seems to believe that medium armor is the middle ground of the bonuses that light and heavy armor builds, but when you look at the facts, this belief is not based in any reality.

Now, many of you might say, why don't you run single target abilities and dots to counter this? When you look at Major Evasion in the context of the no-proc and medium armor bonuses Cyrodiil, it becomes clear just how broken both stamina and the ability is.

There are only two ways to get around the prohibition on aoe from major evasion: single target direct damage and dots. With the core combat defining ability of stam builds being dodge rolling, single target abilities are effectively countered, as users cannot hit the player when they time the dodge roll. This provides strong, spec defining "slippery" feel that Wheeler refers to. This is not a problem on its own and is balanced.

However, what is the counter to dodge rolling? There are only two counters: aoe and dots. With major evasion, stamina builds can essentially defeat one of only two counters to their playstyle by providing a flat 20% nerf to that form of damage. This problem has only exacerbated in the recent update, as medium armor now gives 2% per piece of medium armor mitigation to aoe damage after dodge rolling for two seconds. A 5 medium user with major evasion and dodge roll can now reduce AOE damage by 30% alone, without even calculating CP into the equation or other major minor buffs.

Finally, with proc sets gone, magicka classes with a lack of strong dot pressure are essentially doomed in what I call the Stamina Paradox: you cant effectively single target and dot pressure down a stamina build because they dodge roll and you don't have strong class single target abilities; and you cant aoe down a stamina player because they get upwards of 30% reduced damage to you aoe abilities. Combine these two things, and you get a fundamentally unbalanced PvP environment with mag classes other than mag sorc (strong single target burst) and mag dk (strong dot pressure) being unable to effectively counter stam builds. They are essentially unplayable in the current meta in solo.

Would be great to hear from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or @ZOS_GinaBruno about the balancing issues between stam and mag, as well as the overperforming of stamina sorcs in the no-proc Cyrodiil environment.