Kwoung wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But even if they did, Mutagen used to be quite meh (and sometimes not even used) so instead it was Healing Springs, which at least required the group to remain stationary or lose their HoTs, and thus times these groups were vulnerable.

However things used to be, there's no way a powerful HoT that requires no aiming, hits multiple people, and sticks to them should have ever been introduced into the game, let alone have remained for as long as it has. I started this game as a healer so I sympathize with them and it's hard to heal the insane damage that is incoming. But that sort of mitigation/healing power that you always have in that video should be only reserved for limited times or at specific place using an ultimate (which was the entire purpose of something like Veil of Blades).

Since we are discussing old patches, HoT's have always stacked, the reason players didn't use mutagen etc in the past is because of the number of targets hit vs its healing amount. Springs was simply more effective and efficient (due to its magicka return and stacking healing meaning that you could have 4 ticks proc'd at once). The only reason for using mutagen was early pre-buffing and for the built in purge effect if dropping low (was really useful during the Wall of Elements purge bug days).

The thing you are maybe remembering was the old barrier ulti stacking (which required different morphs / levels) so Barrier I and Barrier II would stack, or Barrier + Morph 1 + Morph 2 etc..

Heals in ESO have always been stacking in nature. That is just the design of the game since launch. They have always been active mitigation and it is built into the core foundation of the combat. Even now, Springs from multiple players still stack, you can be hit by the same single target heal from multiple players at once. The only thing which was changed was the ability for individual players to self-stack multiple versions of the same ground effects.

Here's were the important side is. Almost all heals in ESO are smart target, this means that you have no control over who gets the healing. One of the reasons why springs was so strong is that you could control where you were healing (by means of placing the ground effect) and thus you had more control over who you healed. (Its much better to heal where the damage will be than everyone). Radiating regeneration doesn't have this luxury, its heals are very random, if you cast it 3 times there's as much chance that 1 player has his buff refreshed 3 times and 1 player doesn't get any (depending on the incoming dmg at the time). Additionally it only hits a maximum of 3 players. This is half the current healing cap per skill.

It's plus sides are that HoT heals where you don't need to be standing on the healing spot are obviously better for situations where you need to spread out (think the current synergy, proxy scaling, vd meta).
Ironically groups were weaker before because they were forced to stack in the damage due to the healing method (after the AOE cap change) but people cheered that springs was being removed so that "groups couldn't stack up", for me it just tells me that people in general don't understand group combat mechanics whenever I see similar style posts these days.

Now you have those who are upset because healing can only go onto allies within groups, and cheering that ZOS has rescinded this restriction. Yet at the same time calling for heal stacking to be removed. This will mean that you have less healing from ungrouped allies, because when you are low and 4 people cast single target mutagen at you you will only get one of them as an ungrouped player. People when solo tend to only use a certain range of specific heals. Meaning Groups will have even more healing if both went ahead. (from the pugs + their own group).

but as the video above clearly shows, which is composed of at least half stamina players, somehow manage to consistently have 3 and 4 of these HoTs ticking at the same time.

Which part of the video do they consistently have 3 or 4 mutagens (im not talking about some situation where they are not really in combat and everyone is focused on healing - I think if everyone focuses on it then why shouldn't there be multiple heals going out, but in actual combat situations in the video they have barely 1-2 mutagens up, and im sure they have more than 2 healers).

What people don't seem to understand is that if healing is nerfed then groups get more tanky, have more hp.
When healing is higher and damage is lower groups build more squishy in order to deal more damage.

These broken Mechanics will continue to drive players away. Why play that when I can hop on call of duty and have the same chance of killing the other players when you have zero chance in this game. Dying is not fun when the outcome is predicted every time.

I am amazed that some players are so self centered on playing in ball groups and ruining the game for so many. There are a handful of groups that make the game unfun/unplayable for hundreds of others.

But you explained part of your own issue. Cyrodiil isn’t a death match and isn’t just about getting kills. I’m sure there are many individual players or even small groups you wouldn’t be able to kill on equal terms. So are they an issue as well? You shouldn’t have an even chance of killing absolutely anyone you come across because that doesn’t reward players for learning the game... if you don’t want to use the available skills/sets/items etc in the game that counter ballgroups or learn how to disrupt them, then why should you be rewarded by killing them?

Throwing your solo build skills at them isn’t gonna do anything. Setting up a single oil on top of keep isn’t gonna do anything. There is /zone /yell and /say where you can communicate with other players to work towards disrupting and maybe even killing them. If the other players don’t respond to communication well.... then they are the issue. But you can’t nerf ballgroups just because pugs either don’t know what to do in that situation or just choose to be ineffective. Players need to learn what is in the game outside of zerg surf and solo build skills.

Well said. I play in a coordinated group a few hours a week and it is actually quite fun, but it takes a ton of practice, theory crafting, farming sets, trial & error, and tight communications to make it work. Not to mention getting enough people who can commit to showing up. It is overall a ton of effort, much more so than slapping on a bow and hitting L. We have farmed dungeons, trials, etc... many times over just to get a set piece for a member, we practice strategies, movement, etc.. in our houses and empty keeps, and are still doing so, just to make those few hours a week we play together as a group count. I am sure 1vXers and small scale do the same to hone their skills and create the "perfect" build, cause they sure wreck me when I am out by myself.

But I also zerg surf or play in small groups most of the time, which both are also very fun to do. I just think that the zerg surfers feel their sheer overwhelming numbers should destroy everything in their path... regardless of what is generally a complete lack of coordination on their part and they just don't get it won't work. Honestly, a pitchfork carrying mob isn't going to fair well against a trained combat team in any situation, and even if they do overwhelm the team, a lot or even most of them, are going down in the process.

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

But even if they did, Mutagen used to be quite meh (and sometimes not even used) so instead it was Healing Springs, which at least required the group to remain stationary or lose their HoTs, and thus times these groups were vulnerable.

However things used to be, there's no way a powerful HoT that requires no aiming, hits multiple people, and sticks to them should have ever been introduced into the game, let alone have remained for as long as it has. I started this game as a healer so I sympathize with them and it's hard to heal the insane damage that is incoming. But that sort of mitigation/healing power that you always have in that video should be only reserved for limited times or at specific place using an ultimate (which was the entire purpose of something like Veil of Blades).

Since we are discussing old patches, HoT's have always stacked, the reason players didn't use mutagen etc in the past is because of the number of targets hit vs its healing amount. Springs was simply more effective and efficient (due to its magicka return and stacking healing meaning that you could have 4 ticks proc'd at once). The only reason for using mutagen was early pre-buffing and for the built in purge effect if dropping low (was really useful during the Wall of Elements purge bug days).

The thing you are maybe remembering was the old barrier ulti stacking (which required different morphs / levels) so Barrier I and Barrier II would stack, or Barrier + Morph 1 + Morph 2 etc..

Heals in ESO have always been stacking in nature. That is just the design of the game since launch. They have always been active mitigation and it is built into the core foundation of the combat. Even now, Springs from multiple players still stack, you can be hit by the same single target heal from multiple players at once. The only thing which was changed was the ability for individual players to self-stack multiple versions of the same ground effects.

Here's were the important side is. Almost all heals in ESO are smart target, this means that you have no control over who gets the healing. One of the reasons why springs was so strong is that you could control where you were healing (by means of placing the ground effect) and thus you had more control over who you healed. (Its much better to heal where the damage will be than everyone). Radiating regeneration doesn't have this luxury, its heals are very random, if you cast it 3 times there's as much chance that 1 player has his buff refreshed 3 times and 1 player doesn't get any (depending on the incoming dmg at the time). Additionally it only hits a maximum of 3 players. This is half the current healing cap per skill.

It's plus sides are that HoT heals where you don't need to be standing on the healing spot are obviously better for situations where you need to spread out (think the current synergy, proxy scaling, vd meta).
Ironically groups were weaker before because they were forced to stack in the damage due to the healing method (after the AOE cap change) but people cheered that springs was being removed so that "groups couldn't stack up", for me it just tells me that people in general don't understand group combat mechanics whenever I see similar style posts these days.

Now you have those who are upset because healing can only go onto allies within groups, and cheering that ZOS has rescinded this restriction. Yet at the same time calling for heal stacking to be removed. This will mean that you have less healing from ungrouped allies, because when you are low and 4 people cast single target mutagen at you you will only get one of them as an ungrouped player. People when solo tend to only use a certain range of specific heals. Meaning Groups will have even more healing if both went ahead. (from the pugs + their own group).

but as the video above clearly shows, which is composed of at least half stamina players, somehow manage to consistently have 3 and 4 of these HoTs ticking at the same time.

Which part of the video do they consistently have 3 or 4 mutagens (im not talking about some situation where they are not really in combat and everyone is focused on healing - I think if everyone focuses on it then why shouldn't there be multiple heals going out, but in actual combat situations in the video they have barely 1-2 mutagens up, and im sure they have more than 2 healers).

What people don't seem to understand is that if healing is nerfed then groups get more tanky, have more hp.
When healing is higher and damage is lower groups build more squishy in order to deal more damage.

These broken Mechanics will continue to drive players away. Why play that when I can hop on call of duty and have the same chance of killing the other players when you have zero chance in this game. Dying is not fun when the outcome is predicted every time.

I am amazed that some players are so self centered on playing in ball groups and ruining the game for so many. There are a handful of groups that make the game unfun/unplayable for hundreds of others.

But you explained part of your own issue. Cyrodiil isn’t a death match and isn’t just about getting kills. I’m sure there are many individual players or even small groups you wouldn’t be able to kill on equal terms. So are they an issue as well? You shouldn’t have an even chance of killing absolutely anyone you come across because that doesn’t reward players for learning the game... if you don’t want to use the available skills/sets/items etc in the game that counter ballgroups or learn how to disrupt them, then why should you be rewarded by killing them?

Throwing your solo build skills at them isn’t gonna do anything. Setting up a single oil on top of keep isn’t gonna do anything. There is /zone /yell and /say where you can communicate with other players to work towards disrupting and maybe even killing them. If the other players don’t respond to communication well.... then they are the issue. But you can’t nerf ballgroups just because pugs either don’t know what to do in that situation or just choose to be ineffective. Players need to learn what is in the game outside of zerg surf and solo build skills.

[snip] The skills I called out are artificial free buffs that make them way OP.

And you just summed up the ball group goal. In fact it is a death match and yes they do want as many cheesy kills as possible at the expense of performance at the expense of other players experience.

My point is to remove iMessage buffs to them and allow them to be killed and picked off by strategy.

Yes, for ballgroups its a deathmatch but they are built to kill zergs... zergs main focus is to take keeps. So for zergs it is not a deathmatch. You sound mad that you are dying to ballgroups with no chance to kill them but it's quite simple that zergs aren't built to kill ballgroups. And if you are playing IN a zerg then you're playing with other people who aren't built to kill ballgroups. The fact that people refuse to swap skills and gear when a ballgroup shows up is probably one of the biggest issues.

Like you seemed to revolve your last post around the fact that you cant kill a ballgroup and you end up dying, implying that you get farmed by them. My point was that if your're playing to get kills then zerging isn't what you should be doing because the goal of zergs is to take map objectives. And also ballgrouping is not at the expense of other players cyrodiil experience. [snip] If you dont want to fight them then go somewhere else, if you want to kill them then change your build and skills and use the chat. If you don't then you can't be upset about being ineffective against them. You also realise that if you remove heal stacking then zergs will die even easier right?

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

Actually it’s the opposite, cross healing still worked in ball groups giving them an advantage and ball groups never run more than 12 people anyway so it made it easier for them to kill other pug groups.

Sahidom wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. .

Sahidom wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. .

The only impact the no-proc test has had so far is to make the game too laggy to use skills 90% of the time if you are heavily outnumbered. Also most groups are just surfing their faction as you can see here:
https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming/clip/ExquisiteFrozenScallionNerfRedBlaster-Vd_uCY-SgvD2fh8C

I dont know why your getting a night and day experience because I haven't experienced the lag monster during the test cycle.

This just seems to remind me of the old Cable broadband verus DSL problem where their shared bandwidth bogged down individual connections during peak community use hours.

For instance, one person up in Alaska used 75% of the bandwidth in one community due to his downloading habits. It eventually caused the company to address the issue because it impacted the other users negatively.

Not saying this is the cause of your problem or escaping ZOS from their responsibilities but there could be numerous reasons why there's a division on why some get good and why some get bad.

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

techyeshic wrote: »

Sahidom wrote: »

There were two tests that strongly discouraged excessive ball grouping.

1. The removal of cross healing.
2. The 12-man group size restriction.

The current removal of the proc sets does also normalizes the mortality rate of the large groups. This doesn't mean ball grouping is weak, it means group composition matters, as well as individual builds.

These changes have their own beneficial merits, and they have their cons too. I don't feel all proc sets should be removed, however, ZOS may want to examine each proc set mechanics whether the set moves the PVP game play forward; and fix the sets that "crutch" class imbalance with class improvement so proc or non-proc sets don't substitute solid class design.

When they reinstate 1 and 2 while addressing the later concerns than new ball grouping will fall into place with its own pros and cons.

I don't think that stopped good ball groups. It certainly nailed the ones that were running more than 12 to compensate for not being able to combat the good ones on PCNA.

Actually; this current no proc test seems to be the most I have seen some of the ball groups go down, yet I've also seen some new to me guild tags looking like they are getting started and definitely need more time to bake.

I also agree the no-proc test made a huge impact on ball groups. .

The only impact the no-proc test has had so far is to make the game too laggy to use skills 90% of the time if you are heavily outnumbered. Also most groups are just surfing their faction as you can see here:
https://www.twitch.tv/cptmorgangaming/clip/ExquisiteFrozenScallionNerfRedBlaster-Vd_uCY-SgvD2fh8C

Good clip selection. DC Ball group trying to set up a farm to kill performance and gets steam rolled.

Well they got their wish and got a big response.

Also worth noting if they were able to get in they would have ram up and down and concentrated more players which would have ranked performance.

So steamroll on front porch was best outcome.