Sandman929 wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

JkahrrRadnar wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

What does this even mean? How are supports eliminated from cyro?.

Did I write Cyro or very specifically

AvAvA gameplay

?

A = Alliance
Alliance =/= a group of 12-24 people
Idk if you were around before One Tamriel but the whole game used to be designed around the fight between the different factions -a concept which culminated in Cyro PvP and its epic, LotR style siege battles.

The point of AvAvA was NOT for people to divide in groups of 12 (or less) and then battle each other. That's what Battlegrounds is for. In AvAvA everyone with your color is your ally (which is why the ability texts say "allied players" and not "players in your group"... smart, right?) and only if everyone in the faction worked together, the map can be played effectively (that's why it's so big and empty nowadays)

Healers unable to heal/buff all members of their faction are excluded from this aspect of Cyro gameplay.

Imagine a crucial keep under siege. You're on your way there, together with other people who saw the call in zone. There's an ambush: Enemy players want to cut off the reinforcements.
If you only see your group as your allies, you'll keep riding. If you see all members of your alliance as your allies, you'll want to do something to get rid of the highwaymen.

If you're a dps or tank you won't have to think twice about throwing yourself into the fight. What, however, can you do as a healer? Make sure the other players don't die, right?

Well, you can't. Unless you quickly exit your group and get the 3 randos currently present to form a new one, your heals and buffs do *** all. Better just keep riding.

Or, different scenario, a siege is set up, two 12 ppl groups are present. A bomber comes in, takes out most of your group mates. You used to be able to buff the other players, too. Now you just gotta sit tight, with all your quipped healing/buffs and full ult useless, until your group comes back.

Maybe if one only plays smallscale PvP with coordinated groups situations like this just... don't happen, idk. But this was the kind of gameplay I sought out and enjoyed most as a support player. As a tank I can still help all people in my alliance, if and when they need it. As a healer I can not.

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

That only works if you have 11 friends or less.

The number of friends must be >= 1 && <= 11. Also, your schedule has to line up with them, they must be reasonably experienced but not so experienced that they don't need a healer anyway...

It's wild how the supporters of this change seem to think there is one way to play this game -their way- and every differing playstyle is an oddity that deserves to be axed.

Telling people to "just group up" is so easy as someone who
a) plays solo (as in self-sufficiently) anyway and doesn't know what tf they're talking about
b) mostly plays with rl friends and never actually has to look for a group
c) has a guild and the free-time/lack of other commitments needed to stay in it
d) interprets the support role in an AvAvA environment (we're talking Cyro, NOT BG) as a monogamous relationship between themselves and exactly 11 other, pre-determined players

Note that in my comment I said

barred from Cyro PvP unless they accept drastic QoL loss/gameplay restrictions

because that's what this is unless you fit into the above categories -in which case: congrats.

If I started playing this game yesterday and didn't know better I wouldn't care (because I would have logged into PvP, seen how it works and logged straight back out) but I've been playing ESO p much since launch. I know the options/freedom I had before this change. Even with MYM causing high pop and lots of PuG opportunities to go around, the loss of spontaneity is a deal-breaker.

You don’t need to explain terms to me, I understand

I feel like how u describe cyro is very outdated. The majority of players seem to care mostly for their guild/group more than they do about randoms now anyway, not even just since the group changes. The majority of regular cyrodiil players are members of guilds... if, hypothetically, they had to choose between saving me or saving someone on their guild, I would be dead. And I’m fine with that

Also this same excuse is brought up time and time again. That you need time and dedication to be in a guild. You really do not. Most of the casual pvp guilds with 300+ players only require you to log in once a month... And if for some reason you just don’t wanna join a guild, they run pug groups every single day which any player can join. They won’t kick you out of the group for being: low level, bad, inexperienced etc etc.

Also people who “play solo” are NOT support players. That’s it. It is impossible to play healer or support and play solo. It always has been. If you were an ungrouped support player, you were still zerg surfing and following groups around wether you knew they were grouped or not. The fact that you now have to join a group to heal them doesn’t even change how you play. As a support player you NEED other players to support. People just have strange excuses as to why they don’t wanna join a group.

Where do you get your facts? I play in a guild sometimes and other times solo. I play solo on all different kinds of character including support tanks and healers. I haven't conducted any polling of my own, but I have no idea what the majority of players do.

I said “seem to” if I’m wrong then fair enough. But most regular cyrodiil players ARE in pvp guilds... they just are and u did not play solo. Just because you are ungrouped does not mean you are playing solo. A solo player is someone who goes to take resources on their own, tries to fight people on their own, as examples. It is impossible to do this as a “support tank and healer”. You literally NEED other players to support... I don’t get what people don’t understand about the term ‘solo’. If you are ungrouped and Zerg surfing and playing alongside other people you are not playing solo. And there is nothing wrong with that just don’t call it solo when it’s not.

You clearly have a lot of your own definitions that you enjoy applying to everyone, but I guess by that definition, an ungrouped person oscillates between playing solo, and then not playing solo when someone else comes around.
I also take resources all the time on support toons...so I do the impossible.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Hopefully, that explains some of our "strange reasons" for not wanting to be forced to group and then limited to only healing the 11 other players in our group. As well as, I hope you now understand, the dramatic impact that the healing changes had for ALL healers, not just the ones who preferred to play ungrouped.

VaranisArano wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

JkahrrRadnar wrote: »

NotTaylorSwift wrote: »

What does this even mean? How are supports eliminated from cyro?.

Did I write Cyro or very specifically

AvAvA gameplay

?

A = Alliance
Alliance =/= a group of 12-24 people
Idk if you were around before One Tamriel but the whole game used to be designed around the fight between the different factions -a concept which culminated in Cyro PvP and its epic, LotR style siege battles.

The point of AvAvA was NOT for people to divide in groups of 12 (or less) and then battle each other. That's what Battlegrounds is for. In AvAvA everyone with your color is your ally (which is why the ability texts say "allied players" and not "players in your group"... smart, right?) and only if everyone in the faction worked together, the map can be played effectively (that's why it's so big and empty nowadays)

Healers unable to heal/buff all members of their faction are excluded from this aspect of Cyro gameplay.

Imagine a crucial keep under siege. You're on your way there, together with other people who saw the call in zone. There's an ambush: Enemy players want to cut off the reinforcements.
If you only see your group as your allies, you'll keep riding. If you see all members of your alliance as your allies, you'll want to do something to get rid of the highwaymen.

If you're a dps or tank you won't have to think twice about throwing yourself into the fight. What, however, can you do as a healer? Make sure the other players don't die, right?

Well, you can't. Unless you quickly exit your group and get the 3 randos currently present to form a new one, your heals and buffs do *** all. Better just keep riding.

Or, different scenario, a siege is set up, two 12 ppl groups are present. A bomber comes in, takes out most of your group mates. You used to be able to buff the other players, too. Now you just gotta sit tight, with all your quipped healing/buffs and full ult useless, until your group comes back.

Maybe if one only plays smallscale PvP with coordinated groups situations like this just... don't happen, idk. But this was the kind of gameplay I sought out and enjoyed most as a support player. As a tank I can still help all people in my alliance, if and when they need it. As a healer I can not.

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

That only works if you have 11 friends or less.

The number of friends must be >= 1 && <= 11. Also, your schedule has to line up with them, they must be reasonably experienced but not so experienced that they don't need a healer anyway...

It's wild how the supporters of this change seem to think there is one way to play this game -their way- and every differing playstyle is an oddity that deserves to be axed.

Telling people to "just group up" is so easy as someone who
a) plays solo (as in self-sufficiently) anyway and doesn't know what tf they're talking about
b) mostly plays with rl friends and never actually has to look for a group
c) has a guild and the free-time/lack of other commitments needed to stay in it
d) interprets the support role in an AvAvA environment (we're talking Cyro, NOT BG) as a monogamous relationship between themselves and exactly 11 other, pre-determined players

Note that in my comment I said

barred from Cyro PvP unless they accept drastic QoL loss/gameplay restrictions

because that's what this is unless you fit into the above categories -in which case: congrats.

If I started playing this game yesterday and didn't know better I wouldn't care (because I would have logged into PvP, seen how it works and logged straight back out) but I've been playing ESO p much since launch. I know the options/freedom I had before this change. Even with MYM causing high pop and lots of PuG opportunities to go around, the loss of spontaneity is a deal-breaker.

You don’t need to explain terms to me, I understand

I feel like how u describe cyro is very outdated. The majority of players seem to care mostly for their guild/group more than they do about randoms now anyway, not even just since the group changes. The majority of regular cyrodiil players are members of guilds... if, hypothetically, they had to choose between saving me or saving someone on their guild, I would be dead. And I’m fine with that

Also this same excuse is brought up time and time again. That you need time and dedication to be in a guild. You really do not. Most of the casual pvp guilds with 300+ players only require you to log in once a month... And if for some reason you just don’t wanna join a guild, they run pug groups every single day which any player can join. They won’t kick you out of the group for being: low level, bad, inexperienced etc etc.

Also people who “play solo” are NOT support players. That’s it. It is impossible to play healer or support and play solo. It always has been. If you were an ungrouped support player, you were still zerg surfing and following groups around wether you knew they were grouped or not. The fact that you now have to join a group to heal them doesn’t even change how you play. As a support player you NEED other players to support. People just have strange excuses as to why they don’t wanna join a group.

Where do you get your facts? I play in a guild sometimes and other times solo. I play solo on all different kinds of character including support tanks and healers. I haven't conducted any polling of my own, but I have no idea what the majority of players do.

I said “seem to” if I’m wrong then fair enough. But most regular cyrodiil players ARE in pvp guilds... they just are and u did not play solo. Just because you are ungrouped does not mean you are playing solo. A solo player is someone who goes to take resources on their own, tries to fight people on their own, as examples. It is impossible to do this as a “support tank and healer”. You literally NEED other players to support... I don’t get what people don’t understand about the term ‘solo’. If you are ungrouped and Zerg surfing and playing alongside other people you are not playing solo. And there is nothing wrong with that just don’t call it solo when it’s not.

Its times like this when I sigh, because we've had so many threads over this topic where someone shows up with the "gotcha!" of "But "solo healers" aren't really solo."

Like we explain every time it comes up: No. We aren't alone. We just weren't grouped. Before the change, no one had to group up to heal or be healed by their alliance members.

With as many times as this has come up in other threads on the same topic and been answered, it feels disingenuous to see "but you aren't really solo" still being brought up. But perhaps I'm too quick to judge, and this is your first time participating in one of these threads?


In which case, let's do a little review of the topic.

You say:
"Also people who “play solo” are NOT support players. That’s it. It is impossible to play healer or support and play solo."
Congratulations! Now you understand the problem that formerly ungrouped healers had with the healing changes! If you don't group up, its impossible to heal anyone!

You say:
"If you were an ungrouped support player, you were still zerg surfing and following groups around wether you knew they were grouped or not."
Yes. Is this a problem? Every other build in Cyrodiil could still zergsurf...except healers.

"The fact that you now have to join a group to heal them doesn’t even change how you play."
No. Just no. That's very incorrect, as a moment's thought should suffice to make clear. If your gameplay doesn't change when you group up, why did you group up? (Or as my PVP raid lead would say, "If you aren't on Crown, why are you in group?")
Its especially incorrect for healers, but I'll get to that in the next bit.

"As a support player you NEED other players to support."
Yes. Its just that prior to the change, we weren't force to group up with them. Huge change to healer play.
Oh! And we could support everyone on our faction too, not just 11 other people! That was a huge change to ALL healers' gameplay!
This meant we used to be able to choose who to support, instead of tying ourselves to a specific 12-man group who might be charging the breach (good!) Or might be skirmishing in the field while our faction is losing the siege (bad!).

"People just have strange excuses as to why they don’t wanna join a group."
Look, after the many threads on the topic it feels like you've preemptively dismissed our reasons as "strange", but maybe this is your first one. So here goes my list of examples of why healers might prefer to not be forced into groups to heal only their 11 group members:
(The "we" and "they" used is general, and examples taken from my experience and from the various threads on this subject. Others may have more to add.)
1. We're not very good - Did you know that new players were often advised to grab a resto staff and zergsurf to get their AP for Vigor/Caltrops/WarHorn/Barrier? Yeah, that doesn't happen now and yes, between that and the smaller group size, new players have less chances to get into good PUG raids so they can learn.
2. We've got social anxiety
3. We have limited playtime. Or their normal group isn't on at that hour. Lots of times, when my PVP guild isn't on, I would jump in for a quick battle and jump back out as time allowed.
4. They want to jump into healing the big fights instead of waiting for an LFG group to pick them up. I liked to answer calls for help in zone chat, now I'd have to LFG up to do anything.
5. We don't want to deal with toxic groupmates
6. We don't want to deal with slow groupmates who make us miss fights.
7. We don't want to deal with incompetent groupmates who scatter, or don't bring siege, or are off doing their own thing
8. We don't want to deal with a toxic, incompetent, slow, or scatter-brained Crown.
9.We DO want the freedom to heal whoever needs it instead of focusing purely on 12 players in our group.
10. We DO want to heal every player around us.
11. We DO want to heal that ungrouped guy next to us repairing the same wall, because if he get ambushed with Vicious Death, we'll take damage if he dies.
12.. We DO want to heal everyone on a ram even if they aren't in our group, because otherwise we might lose the fight.
13. We DO want to heal the random ungrouped guy we see get ganked.
14. We DO want to heal the other groups of PUGs tangling with the ball group farmers, because when they go down, we're next on the menu.
15. We DO want to heal the other ungrouped players tangling with a pair of tower farmers, because when they go down, we're next on the menu.
16. We DO want to pick which fights are most important to us. If my factions PUGs are taking Aleswell and a home keep flags, I want to have the freedom to go help defenders save the home keep
17. We DO want to support our whole faction, not one measly 12-player group.


After all, this is what we're playing. "I can only support my 12-player group" just doesn't compare to the support we used to provide to everyone on our faction.


Hopefully, that explains some of our "strange reasons" for not wanting to be forced to group and then limited to only healing the 11 other players in our group. As well as, I hope you now understand, the dramatic impact that the healing changes had for ALL healers, not just the ones who preferred to play ungrouped.

The fact that you now have to join a group to heal them doesn’t even change how you play.

plays solo (as in self-sufficiently)

I feel like how u describe cyro is very outdated. The majority of players seem to care mostly for their guild/group more than they do about randoms now anyway, not even just since the group changes.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Just a heads up that the details for this test will be posted on Monday. Also, the revert to the healing change will start with this test and will remain that way until further notice (it is not tied directly to the test).