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The issue with procs in PVP
Xiomaro
✭✭✭
There are a number of threads about procs but I would like to put into writing, as objectively as possible, what I think is the real issue with proc sets in PVP. For the record, I do use proc sets. I am not whining because someone has killed me with this stuff. I fully benefit from the status quo. But regardless, I can see both from facing proc sets and from playing them myself that there are a number of game breaking issues.
Let's put aside the arguments about what does and doesn't take skill. In this argument, skill is irrelevant. What is important is game balance. Additionally, I'm not going to suggest a solution. I believe that is up to the game developers. They know what direction they want their game to go in, and there are multiple possible solutions. I'm simply here to present the undeniable issues.
Number 1 - Proc sets break the action economy
Let's say, for example, you're running Maelstrom 2h, Unleashed Terror and Venomous Smite. If you charge at someone from stealth, you are guaranteed to place 3 DOT procs on someone plus the damage that Stampede/Crit Charge normally does, plus poisons, enchants and passives (for example, 2h Axe bleed). No amount of weapon damage stacking can outperform this. The amount of damage pressure you can create from a minimal number of GCDs is game breaking. Which brings me on to my next point...
Number 2 - It takes more resources/time to counter procs than to apply them
Simply put, it costs more to remove or mitigate procs than it does to simply reapply them. There are a very limited number of cleanses in the game, they're generally quite expensive and most only remove a limited number of negative effects. Surviving against multiple proc users requires a Templar. There's simply no other way to mitigate it - this applies to DOT procs, anyway. For direct damage procs, the problem is that it costs nothing to miss. When you use an ultimate, if you miss, you lose your ultimate. With, for example, Caluurion's, yes you can dodge the proc once it fires but simply dodging as someone initiates just doesn't trigger to proc. Caluurion's simply doesn't proc until you connect a critical hit.
Number 3 - Contrary to popular believe, Proc builds can actually be more rounded
With a regular stat build, aside from a few outliers, you almost always have to sacrifice something. Offense, defense, sustain. Pick 2. Yes, I know I'm over simplifying this but it's very hard to build a character that excels in all areas. Proc builds can essentially ignore offense, build for sustain and defense and get the best of everything. For some classes, like Warden/Necro and some DKs, that means sinking a lot into health, blocking and regen. For Stamblades and Stamsorcs (I play the latter), you can build entirely for evasiveness. Full Well-Fitted, only give your opponents brief punish windows and let the procs do the rest of the work.
Conclusion
I like the build options that proc sets provide. As a Stamsorc, I don't have class-given damage-over-time abilities. It's nice to be able to build for that. I love the manic and very Stamsorc-power-fantasy-fitting fast-as-the-wind combination of 2h charge into streak with damage to justify the combo. Or for a class like Magblade, Caluurion's can give them that extra burst that they desperately need (they don't have access to anything like Shalks, Blastbones, Haunting Curse etc).
In short, they can allow a class that doesn't have access to a certain playstyle the flexibility to actually pursue that playstyle. That's perfectly okay; in fact, that's what ESO was originally marketed as - "play the way you want". What isn't okay is when something like proc sets completely breaks the rules that other sets, abilities and passives seem to follow.
If the three areas I've mentioned can be addressed, maybe we could have a game where procs are viable but not the obnoxious mess they currently are.
Edited by Xiomaro on 24 September 2020 14:24 Let's put aside the arguments about what does and doesn't take skill. In this argument, skill is irrelevant. What is important is game balance. Additionally, I'm not going to suggest a solution. I believe that is up to the game developers. They know what direction they want their game to go in, and there are multiple possible solutions. I'm simply here to present the undeniable issues.
Number 1 - Proc sets break the action economy
Let's say, for example, you're running Maelstrom 2h, Unleashed Terror and Venomous Smite. If you charge at someone from stealth, you are guaranteed to place 3 DOT procs on someone plus the damage that Stampede/Crit Charge normally does, plus poisons, enchants and passives (for example, 2h Axe bleed). No amount of weapon damage stacking can outperform this. The amount of damage pressure you can create from a minimal number of GCDs is game breaking. Which brings me on to my next point...
Number 2 - It takes more resources/time to counter procs than to apply them
Simply put, it costs more to remove or mitigate procs than it does to simply reapply them. There are a very limited number of cleanses in the game, they're generally quite expensive and most only remove a limited number of negative effects. Surviving against multiple proc users requires a Templar. There's simply no other way to mitigate it - this applies to DOT procs, anyway. For direct damage procs, the problem is that it costs nothing to miss. When you use an ultimate, if you miss, you lose your ultimate. With, for example, Caluurion's, yes you can dodge the proc once it fires but simply dodging as someone initiates just doesn't trigger to proc. Caluurion's simply doesn't proc until you connect a critical hit.
Number 3 - Contrary to popular believe, Proc builds can actually be more rounded
With a regular stat build, aside from a few outliers, you almost always have to sacrifice something. Offense, defense, sustain. Pick 2. Yes, I know I'm over simplifying this but it's very hard to build a character that excels in all areas. Proc builds can essentially ignore offense, build for sustain and defense and get the best of everything. For some classes, like Warden/Necro and some DKs, that means sinking a lot into health, blocking and regen. For Stamblades and Stamsorcs (I play the latter), you can build entirely for evasiveness. Full Well-Fitted, only give your opponents brief punish windows and let the procs do the rest of the work.
Conclusion
I like the build options that proc sets provide. As a Stamsorc, I don't have class-given damage-over-time abilities. It's nice to be able to build for that. I love the manic and very Stamsorc-power-fantasy-fitting fast-as-the-wind combination of 2h charge into streak with damage to justify the combo. Or for a class like Magblade, Caluurion's can give them that extra burst that they desperately need (they don't have access to anything like Shalks, Blastbones, Haunting Curse etc).
In short, they can allow a class that doesn't have access to a certain playstyle the flexibility to actually pursue that playstyle. That's perfectly okay; in fact, that's what ESO was originally marketed as - "play the way you want". What isn't okay is when something like proc sets completely breaks the rules that other sets, abilities and passives seem to follow.
If the three areas I've mentioned can be addressed, maybe we could have a game where procs are viable but not the obnoxious mess they currently are.
PC EU No CP PVP
Xiomaro: Nord Stamsorc
Xio'maro: Breton Magsorc
Falura Avelni: Dunmer Vampblade
Ulric Longboi: Nord Stamden
Sha'boom-boom: Orc Werewolf Tank
Morga The Roarer Nord Stamcro
Xio'maro: Breton Magsorc
Falura Avelni: Dunmer Vampblade
Ulric Longboi: Nord Stamden
Sha'boom-boom: Orc Werewolf Tank
Morga The Roarer Nord Stamcro
28
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Jierdanit✭✭✭✭✭
✭I really agree with nearly everything youve said.
Even though this part
is not irrelevant at all in my opinion.Let's put aside the arguments about what does and doesn't take skill. In this argument, skill is irrelevant.
Not gonna start another discussion about Player skill tho
.
Edited by Jierdanit on 24 September 2020 16:53PC/EU, StamSorc Main1 -
Xiomaro✭✭✭pauld1_ESO wrote: »I see "elite" players using proc sets, so apparently skill be damned.
I'm not claiming to be an elite player. I'm not bad but there are far better players than myself. That being said - I, and many others, will gravitate towards the most effective builds. Right now, aside from maybe StamDen, the answer is proc builds. Some people would rather play something that requires more skill even if that means being less effective. And more power to them. But not all good players care about what does and doesn't take skill.PC EU No CP PVPXiomaro: Nord Stamsorc
Xio'maro: Breton Magsorc
Falura Avelni: Dunmer Vampblade
Ulric Longboi: Nord Stamden
Sha'boom-boom: Orc Werewolf Tank
Morga The Roarer Nord Stamcro1 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭"in your opinion" is what should be included in the thread title, mainly because other people play this game not just the few in this thread and they have different opinions.
there are millions of people in eso that all have different opinions on this subject, just as all the subjects and beliefs in eso.
lets be clear that this is up for debate instead of dominating the subject to just 4 peoples belief.
i for one disagree with the idea that you are claiming here because anyone can wear the sets in eso and we have seen that developers have worn the BEST sets in eso and still lost.
you can wear the strong sets and still loose in pvp and pve.
you can wear the weakest sets and still win in pvp and pve.1 -
Kartalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The issue presented in OP's 2nd point -- that it takes more time to deal with procs than to reapply them -- is what is especially damning and painful in non-cp during the current AOE ramping cost test (specifically with templar ritual and the purge skill). It reduces many fights to what is simply a numbers game. Their side had more numbers so they won. Terrible.
To be fair, it would not be nearly as bad without the ramping costs, but still pretty silly.-
Tri-faction tryhard but mainly EP in Gray Host lately (PC/NA)
- DISCARNATE - Tertiary Meat - @ Kartalin - Youtube
3 -
pauld1_ESO✭✭✭✭pauld1_ESO wrote: »I see "elite" players using proc sets, so apparently skill be damned.
I'm not claiming to be an elite player. I'm not bad but there are far better players than myself. That being said - I, and many others, will gravitate towards the most effective builds. Right now, aside from maybe StamDen, the answer is proc builds. Some people would rather play something that requires more skill even if that means being less effective. And more power to them. But not all good players care about what does and doesn't take skill.
I say let's talk about the fact we need procs just to compete with Stamdens....2 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭[pauld1_ESO wrote: »pauld1_ESO wrote: »I see "elite" players using proc sets, so apparently skill be damned.
I'm not claiming to be an elite player. I'm not bad but there are far better players than myself. That being said - I, and many others, will gravitate towards the most effective builds. Right now, aside from maybe StamDen, the answer is proc builds. Some people would rather play something that requires more skill even if that means being less effective. And more power to them. But not all good players care about what does and doesn't take skill.
I say let's talk about the fact we need procs just to compete with Stamdens....
You don't solve a problem that stems from one specific class by layering another problem on top of it, you fix the class1 -
Canned_Apples✭✭✭✭✭
✭I seriously have no idea what @ZOS_Gilliam and @ZOS_BrianWheeler are thinking.
Do they even play this game?
This meta is garbage. 5 dots with one skill.
Next patch is only going to make things worse.
11 -
JinxxND✭✭✭✭pauld1_ESO wrote: »I see "elite" players using proc sets, so apparently skill be damned.
Because they are at the point where they are just superior to not running them especially in non CP, you can run a stat based build where you have to put your self at greater risk of damage and still not have the healing to out heal procs or you can just use procs get more damage then you would if you didn't use procs and build around sustain/survival/speed because you don't need raw stats letting the procs do all your damage.
One of the biggest culprit are nightblades where you can build for big damage with 2-3 stats based damage set and mundus or you can just run sheer venom/hunter venom/any poison based proc set and simple use one skill and proc multiple procs and build all your jewelry/mundus/traits around survival and cloaking for a much less risky playstyle with more damage
This patch I've done both stat based and proc based damage in pvp and procs by far outperform stats due to the serious damage with ease of application of that damagePC NA -
'Jinxx - Nightblade
'Jinxx X Necromancer1 -
JayKwellen✭✭✭✭✭@Xiomaro I agree with your write up.
I'm not a big fan of proc sets in general, but I don't mind ones that actually compliment a class, particularly ones that do it in a way that the proc either specifically magnifies a characters natural playstyle (like grothdarr on magdks, much as I personally hate fighting them) and/or augments the class in a way to make up for something the class is missing. Best example being Caluurion's (which I'll admit to using on my own magblade) due to Magblades lack of both upfront and reliable timed/delayed burst. Despite the 19k tool tip Caluurion usually hits for about 5k against a competently built player unless they're purposely going full glass cannon, which is just the right amount of extra pepper that magblades need to bring down most people, but not so overpowered as to be an instant I Win button either. It really hits no harder than a typical dizzy swing on a well geared Stam character, which is fine. It also requires a little forethought to use, because it you don't control the proc and roll it into a burst combo and just let it run wild whenever it's not going to really hurt anyone whos acquatined with their dodge roll or heal button.
I think when used in this manner procs, particularly ones that have triggering conditions beyond simply "use this ability", can be a good augmentation to bandaid class weaknesses or further mold specific playstyles.
The problem I have is when procs move into the driver's seat and play the game for you. When you can sit 30 meters away and proc multiple dots off a single poison injection is when things start to get silly. This is also why I find malacath objectionable, as multi-proc builds can already be irritating, but adding 25% more damage with really no real downside at all just starts to get ridiculous.Edited by JayKwellen on 26 September 2020 00:210 -
JinxxND✭✭✭✭The problem is some procs like sheer venom are over tuned for how easy they are to land compared to something like pillar of nirn. Pillar of nirn imo is a good proc set in that it has a very hard condition to land it reliably and you almost have to build your build around landing the proc to get the benefits
Meanwhile we have sheer venom proc from poison inject spam at max range that not only does crazy damage more then the actual skill dot it will reproc because it has no cooldown and every inject tick can proc it again on top of it having an execute modifier ON TOP of have the chance to proc the poisoned status effect
And then we have what I would consider middle ground proc sets that are still over tuned but not super over the top like sheer venom with unleashed terror, outside of stamsorc streak it requires you to either pull or gap close into melee range to apply it where there is risk also no secondary status effect like poisoned with the new bleed scaling, if anything bleeds should get the overall damage tuned down by like 50% but gain an execute scaling bonus since they don't have any secondary status effect like other poisoned/disease/fire/lightning etc. damage procs and require melee range to proc them increasing riskEdited by JinxxND on 26 September 2020 00:41PC NA -
'Jinxx - Nightblade
'Jinxx X Necromancer1 -
JinxxND✭✭✭✭Completely agree with @Xiomaro post though in that procs should have a place and can complement a class like on a stamblade where the class lacks sustained undodgeable pressure but already has really good burst built in. So if you pair an undodgeable/unavoidable proc with its already bursty but completely avoidable kit it can really make the stamblade strongerPC NA -
'Jinxx - Nightblade
'Jinxx X Necromancer0 -
FirmamentOfStars✭✭✭✭✭"in your opinion" is what should be included in the thread title, mainly because other people play this game not just the few in this thread and they have different opinions.
there are millions of people in eso that all have different opinions on this subject, just as all the subjects and beliefs in eso.
lets be clear that this is up for debate instead of dominating the subject to just 4 peoples belief.
i for one disagree with the idea that you are claiming here because anyone can wear the sets in eso and we have seen that developers have worn the BEST sets in eso and still lost.
you can wear the strong sets and still loose in pvp and pve.
you can wear the weakest sets and still win in pvp and pve.
Its not just about his opinion though. Also millions of players is a huge exaggeration, since there are not even a million players, who go online everyday. Also his opinion meets pretty much the opinion of looots if experienced players (your opinion on the other hand is in most of those experienced players worth zero value).
You are right, that everyone can wear those sets, but it takes skill away from the game. I never had an easier time to 1vX as pre-Greymoor with two proc sets and a stat set. Experienced players with such sets take away any fun from new players and the intention to actually learn and play PvP. New players on the other hand can achieve decent results, which they do not deserve just by wearing proc sets. Also it drives those players to never learn how to PvP, since the sets play their game and gets them decent results. So why would they ever try to improve?
Last point:
The devs lost their games in the past (their sets are not even relevant at this point), because they are not really good at PvPing in their own game. Neither do they actually know what sets and builds are actually good or the best. I have seen devs like Rich lambert using a dual wield/resto build on stamplar without major brutality (he didnt use weapon power pots nor the duel wield skill for brutality). The devs have pretty much zero clue how PvP works.2 -
SRASinister✭✭✭JayKwellen wrote: »@Xiomaro I agree with your write up.
I'm not a big fan of proc sets in general, but I don't mind ones that actually compliment a class, particularly ones that do it in a way that the proc either specifically magnifies a characters natural playstyle (like grothdarr on magdks, much as I personally hate fighting them) and/or augments the class in a way to make up for something the class is missing. Best example being Caluurion's (which I'll admit to using on my own magblade) due to Magblades lack of both upfront and reliable timed/delayed burst. Despite the 19k tool tip Caluurion usually hits for about 5k against a competently built player unless they're purposely going full glass cannon, which is just the right amount of extra pepper that magblades need to bring down most people, but not so overpowered as to be an instant I Win button either. It really hits no harder than a typical dizzy swing on a well geared Stam character, which is fine. It also requires a little forethought to use, because it you don't control the proc and roll it into a burst combo and just let it run wild whenever it's not going to really hurt anyone whos acquatined with their dodge roll or heal button.
I think when used in this manner procs, particularly ones that have triggering conditions beyond simply "use this ability", can be a good augmentation to bandaid class weaknesses or further mold specific playstyles.
The problem I have is when procs move into the driver's seat and play the game for you. When you can sit 30 meters away and proc multiple dots off a single poison injection is when things start to get silly. This is also why I find malacath objectionable, as multi-proc builds can already be irritating, but adding 25% more damage with really no real downside at all just starts to get ridiculous.
Yeah Caluurions doesn't bother me anymore when I see it on my death recap. Last night when I was fighting your group as soon as i got up I would get hit by hit by two coldfire, the 2 venom procs with another dot proc mixed in, and your Caluurions was honestly a breath of fresh air with that group lol. When I finally got out of range of the coldfire I could kill the 4 chasing me though I have no idea what happened to you since you were fighting my two other group mates. I had to really sweat to get kills on my magblade where when I play other classes it is just so much easier. The one guy I was playing with was streaming and lol kept commenting about me dying when he rez'd me.Xbox One NA: Sins of Daemons0 -
JayKwellen✭✭✭✭✭SRASinister wrote: »
@SRASinister Yeah Caluurions doesn't bother me anymore when I see it on my death recap. Last night when I was fighting your group as soon as i got up I would get hit by hit by two coldfire, the 2 venom procs with another dot proc mixed in, and your Caluurions was honestly a breath of fresh air with that group lol. When I finally got out of range of the coldfire I could kill the 4 chasing me though I have no idea what happened to you since you were fighting my two other group mates. I had to really sweat to get kills on my magblade where when I play other classes it is just so much easier. The one guy I was playing with was streaming and lol kept commenting about me dying when he rez'd me.
Yeah my husband and I roll together most nights and we usually just bounce around defending home keeps, which is probably where we ran into you. I know we've run into your groups before though and y'all always make it a good fight and a good time. I'll admit though, these days unless EP is tearing up our home keeps we typically just stick to the blue side. Not saying EP is cool or anything crazy like that...but that last campaign we spent with you guys might have softened us up a bit towards our red neighbors. Don't tell nobody tho.
And you're definitely right about that magblade sweat for sure. Despite having a perfectly fine stamden and stamDK the magblade is actually all I play anymore, I think I might be an unintentional masochist lol. Despite how irritating it can be sometimes, especially when I get myself killed by my own dumb s*** like shading up a tower and rolling off the top to my death, dropping my shade in a dumb spot or gapclosing someone outside its range, lotus fanning into a wardens shalks, killing myself off a reflected spectral bow, etc. (it's a long list lol), something about it just feels extra special when you do get that good clean kill because you know you earned it ya know?
2 -
StShoot✭✭✭✭"in your opinion" is what should be included in the thread title, mainly because other people play this game not just the few in this thread and they have different opinions.
there are millions of people in eso that all have different opinions on this subject, just as all the subjects and beliefs in eso.
lets be clear that this is up for debate instead of dominating the subject to just 4 peoples belief.
i for one disagree with the idea that you are claiming here because anyone can wear the sets in eso and we have seen that developers have worn the BEST sets in eso and still lost.
you can wear the strong sets and still loose in pvp and pve.
you can wear the weakest sets and still win in pvp and pve.
Yeah but procsets actualy doesnt work that way, sure if you fight one payer with a tripple procset build you can win with a statbased build, if you manage to survive his procs. But what if there is not one player using this but 2/3/4 ? the problem is that procsets can stack (otherwhise they would be pretty useless for non organized groupplay (aka zerging). What some players allready pointed out (and as it allready was pointed out to the devs during the viper meta some years ago) is that it reduces the combat to a game of numbers, who has the most procsets and which group can spam their procskill the fastest.
Tbh there is no skillless meta than the procset meta. And even the best players in the game are taken down when they eat multiple proccsets because there is just no counter in the current game.1 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭"in your opinion" is what should be included in the thread title, mainly because other people play this game not just the few in this thread and they have different opinions.
Unfortunately, none of these are opinions:Number 1 - Proc sets break the action economy
The amount of damage pressure you can create from a minimal number of GCDs is game breaking.
Number 2 - It takes more resources/time to counter procs than to apply them
Simply put, it costs more to remove or mitigate procs than it does to simply reapply them. There
Number 3 - Contrary to popular believe, Proc builds can actually be more rounded
These are facts based on how combat functions, and how the current strength of proc sets give them too high of a power budget within the combat system.
If the goal was to create a proc set meta, then the universal buffs to proc sets have certainly achieved this. But I and many others feel that this type of gameplay cheapens the experience. Proc sets should be an option, but not by far the best one. I don't run proc sets, and many others do not as well, because we don't like playing on autopilot. I hope zos understands this and adjusts the meta accordingly.
Edited by MurderMostFoul on 27 September 2020 12:33“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”4 -
pauld1_ESO✭✭✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »"in your opinion" is what should be included in the thread title, mainly because other people play this game not just the few in this thread and they have different opinions.
Unfortunately, none of these are opinions:Number 1 - Proc sets break the action economy
The amount of damage pressure you can create from a minimal number of GCDs is game breaking.
Number 2 - It takes more resources/time to counter procs than to apply them
Simply put, it costs more to remove or mitigate procs than it does to simply reapply them. There
Number 3 - Contrary to popular believe, Proc builds can actually be more rounded
These are facts based on how combat functions, and how the current strength of proc sets give them too high of a power budget within the combat system.
If the goal was to create a proc set meta, then the universal buffs to proc sets have certainly achieved this. But I and many others feel that this type of gameplay cheapens the experience. Proc sets should be an option, but not by far the best one. I don't run proc sets, and many others do not as well, because we don't like playing on autopilot. I hope zos understands this and adjusts the meta accordingly.
I think we are talking extremes here. The only way a proc set puts you on auto-pilot is if you build around it for survival but only rely on the proc set damage, like dudes who have 30k+ health and malacath running three proc sets. Otherwise it just compliments or enhances. I run one proc set, my "rotation" doesn't changed based on sheer venom, it's just an extra dot I get from execute skills I would use anyway. I sitll get hate whispers for having no skill when I kill someone because they saw sheer venom in the recap lol. Kind of silly actually.
Maybe the solution is to only allow one proc set per player? That way you are enhancing your build with the proc.Edited by pauld1_ESO on 27 September 2020 14:210 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭pauld1_ESO wrote: »I see "elite" players using proc sets, so apparently skill be damned.
Because they are at the point where they are just superior to not running them especially in non CP, you can run a stat based build where you have to put your self at greater risk of damage and still not have the healing to out heal procs or you can just use procs get more damage then you would if you didn't use procs and build around sustain/survival/speed because you don't need raw stats letting the procs do all your damage.
One of the biggest culprit are nightblades where you can build for big damage with 2-3 stats based damage set and mundus or you can just run sheer venom/hunter venom/any poison based proc set and simple use one skill and proc multiple procs and build all your jewelry/mundus/traits around survival and cloaking for a much less risky playstyle with more damage
This patch I've done both stat based and proc based damage in pvp and procs by far outperform stats due to the serious damage with ease of application of that damage
I can do a 6kwpd build with high crit and decent pen and take it to bgs and get some kills on my templar, or I can rock sheer venom backbar, vma 2h front and deal 1-2 mil dmg every match, get kills passively from 2-3k+ dot pressure in execute range, dont have to commit to any fight, dont have to worry about landing actual combos(altough stamplar has always been more of a pressure class).
Another thing is, without cp and the crushing 60% reduction from battle spirit, my heals dont even scale that well anyway.
Going from my current 4.2k to 6k wpd i barely notice my vigor getting stronger.
With procs i can spend more time playing defensively and still have insane damage.
On top of all that, some classes like stamsorc doesnt even need to build for high dmg stats as your most relevant heals dont even scale with those stats.
Also want to point out: On my stamplar my poison injection has a 10k tooltip over 10 seconds, my sheer venom proc has 13k over 6. And yes poison inject can crit, but in no cp thats not really a big factor anyway.
When we have sets do more than double the damage of skills, you know we have a problem.
My magplar regularly chunks ppl for 6-7k dmg with caluurion proc, and why wouldnt i run it? Dark flare has a super obvious cast and a slow moving projectile, caluurion is quick and can proc and land before my opponent can get up from my aurora javelin.
I have said this in other threads, but they need to treat procs as abilities, that scale with our stats like weapon and spell damage, and balance them around similar skills. Altough at this point even that might not be enough.
Stat sets have powercreeped to the point where its not hard to get decent stats even with multiple procsets.
And anyone playing stamina is about to get another 40% (!!!) free regen next patch, like if nothing changes i can swap serpent for warrior next patch and get more dmg and have the same regen, its just stupid.1 -
Recapitated✭✭✭✭pauld1_ESO wrote: »I think we are talking extremes here. The only way a proc set puts you on auto-pilot is if you build around it for survival but only rely on the proc set damage, like dudes who have 30k+ health and malacath running three proc sets. Otherwise it just compliments or enhances. I run one proc set, my "rotation" doesn't changed based on sheer venom, it's just an extra dot I get from execute skills I would use anyway. I sitll get hate whispers for having no skill when I kill someone because they saw sheer venom in the recap lol. Kind of silly actually.
Maybe the solution is to only allow one proc set per player? That way you are enhancing your build with the proc.
It's still a lot just by itself to be honest. With m/M brutality, 7th legion up and NMA in no CP (it's what I had on hand from previous patches but still hefty WD), my stamDK's venomous claw still gets me a smaller DOT than SV's proc off Poison Injection, and that's without counting PI itself. SV's 2-4pc is great too.
That's a lot of pressure to be putting on from range in one GCD, even compared to 2GCDs. If I hit you with Noxious Breath and you dodge Venomous Claw, you've got one DOT on you. If I dodge your first PI, the proc isn't wasted and you can just use PI again to put 2 DOTs on me from range.
Maybe it should be possible to waste procs, so if you fire PI at a target and they dodge your Sheer Venom goes on cool down.
IDK, try playing without it and see if you're able to perform just as well when landing PI isn't half the battle.Edited by Recapitated on 27 September 2020 15:021 -
angelofdeath333✭✭✭50% of the PvP population would just disappear if they nerfed all the proc sets to the ground, because they cant play without Them. Cant wait for it to happen2
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The only issue with going back to 0 proc sets is the class imbalance becomes very apparent.
Some classes use proc sets to compliment the build.
Tbf its really the stam proc sets that are the issue1 -
BangX✭✭✭Make proc sets scale with offensive stats and decrease the base damage, easy fix.
My only problem with proc sets is that you can go tanky with 40k+ health, and still deal a lot of damage because procs don't scale with offensive stats.
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Recapitated✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »The only issue with going back to 0 proc sets is the class imbalance becomes very apparent.
Some classes use proc sets to compliment the build.
Tbf its really the stam proc sets that are the issue
What are you thinking of aside from Caluurion's?0 -
Tolino✭✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »The only issue with going back to 0 proc sets is the class imbalance becomes very apparent.
Some classes use proc sets to compliment the build.
Tbf its really the stam proc sets that are the issue
What are you thinking of aside from Caluurion's?
Stamsorc whit Max. Stats is just a weaker dizzy Stamnecro, Stamden or Stamdk.
Stamsorc is only realy viabel whit ProcdEdited by Tolino on 28 September 2020 03:18Magsorc: Tôlino (Wardless)
Magden: Wa-Uller
Stamsorc: Tolino Sturmfalke0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Recapitated wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »The only issue with going back to 0 proc sets is the class imbalance becomes very apparent.
Some classes use proc sets to compliment the build.
Tbf its really the stam proc sets that are the issue
What are you thinking of aside from Caluurion's?
Used to compliment builds?
Winterborn on Warden comes to mind
Cal on Magblade
Icy Conjurer (or other dot proc) for mag sorc
Health Proc for magden
Just off the top of my head.
This is why I feel stamina is lopsided, the access to weapon abilities that cover gaps in classes make procs overboard.
Mag version have gaps, less now with some guild abilities0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭
This is one of the big issues in my mind, and is often overlooked in discussion regarding the relative power of procs vs the general gain from stat based sets.Number 1 - Proc sets break the action economy
I would add an addendum to this point:Number 3 - Contrary to popular believe, Proc builds can actually be more rounded
With a regular stat build, aside from a few outliers, you almost always have to sacrifice something. Offense, defense, sustain. Pick 2. Yes, I know I'm over simplifying this but it's very hard to build a character that excels in all areas. Proc builds can essentially ignore offense, build for sustain and defense and get the best of everything. For some classes, like Warden/Necro and some DKs, that means sinking a lot into health, blocking and regen. For Stamblades and Stamsorcs (I play the latter), you can build entirely for evasiveness. Full Well-Fitted, only give your opponents brief punish windows and let the procs do the rest of the work.
In my opinion, the ability to build well rounded with proc sets by focusing on defense and sustain is something that generally more effective for stamina builds over magicka builds. This is because stamina builds in general are more likely to use block and dodge roll as defensive abilities than magicka is. The effectiveness of block and dodge do not scale with stats, so are still just as effective when ignoring offense. Magicka builds on the other hand are generally much more reliant on skills for defense, either heals or shields. These skills generally scale with spell damage/magicka, and thus will suffer on a build that ignore offense. Of course, there are exceptions to this for some classes by using things like health scaling heals or evasion skills, but these are not available (or effective) for all classes.
Edited by ExistingRug61 on 28 September 2020 03:283
