Because all PvP is served up with a sprinkle of Salt.



Seriously, turn off the Chat, it makes things so much better

Because there's this mentality that exists that for some reason makes killing players bad, but killing AIs ok.

Unless it’s for a resource or on the way to/from a fight, I tend to leave people alone. Esp if I find someone who was in stealth, because I’m a sneak too so I know how stressful that life is.

This is why you give the PvE player a gentle Flame Clench/Magnum Shot to the face when you pass them and keep moving. They'll be far too flustered to chase after you, and it shows you're not trying to fight them if you just keep walking away

Plus! It keeps them on their toes 😉

SshadowSscale wrote: »

So it has been bugging me since last event but it keeps happening.... Why when you are bussy questing and I leave you alone to quest do some of you feel the need to take a cheap shot on me and try to kill me.... And then when I defend myself I get whispers telling me I am just another toxic pvp player who likes to kill easy targets.... You are the one who attacked me first.... I left you completly alone and yes if you are going to attack me I will defend myself.... So my question is just why? Because I seriously do not understand it.

Here’s something that bugs me... Why is it when I’m busy questing - rescuing the citizens in Arena, killing a quest Daedroth in Arboretum, running from skeleton to skeleton in Memorial, running from ballista to ballista in Elven Gardens, setting an ogrim trap in Nobles, interacting with the quest brazier in Temple - why is it that even though I am not attacking you or even see you at all, why do you feel the need to cheap shot on me with bow snipe from an upper walkways or drop a meteor on me followed by gankblade sneak attack or erupt from stealth with a great sword crit charge.... And then when I die and you get a massive 78 stones, respawn somewhere else, deposit what I have and return to finish the quest... why do you feel the need to wait for me when you know I’m not carrying anything you can loot? When you jump on me during my npc fights you often don’t even give me a chance to loot them for the quest items.

You even attack out of nowhere when I was standing at the water’s edge fishing.

Is it because you see an easy target and can’t help yourself? Because I seriously cannot understand why you would try seeking a fight from people who are obviously avoiding one.

These pvp events are very much like when a restaurant puts on a special theme event to try and get new people to come be new customers, hopefully to become loyal repeat customers. Sort of like if a restaurant advertises a special Super Bowl watch party, or an extra decorated Halloween masquerade, such like that.

However, if a new prospective customer attending that event is treated rudely by the people who are obviously already regular customers, then the new people are exceptionally unlikely to return. “That place, it looked nice but was filled with a bunch of jerks.”

People don’t spend their money on things that they feel will be a ripoff. So too you can’t expect people to spend their time on something that they feel will just get them treated poorly. And that’s the way to look at it, the players are all customers to each other - people have time to spend and they want to spend it where they will have fun AND not be treated rudely.

These events are trying to sell pvp to new people. So the new people spend some of their finite time there, only to have their fun derailed by jerks who treat them rudely “Git Gud” or “it is a pvp zone so suck it up carebear”.

If regular customers were insulting other people as they walked in the door of a restaurant, that group of jerks would be told to behave politely or leave. If the jerks were allowed to continue being rude to others, eventually they would drive away all the non-jerks. “Why should I go there to eat? Those jerks are rude to everyone and the owner doesn’t do anything about it. I’m not going there anymore!”

Well, in eso pvp those jerks have been left there to shout “Git Gud” and teabag and gank and spawn camp and quest camp.

96% of unhappy customers don’t complain, however 91% of those will simply leave and never come back.

A dissatisfied customer will tell between 9-15 people about their experience. Around 13% of dissatisfied customers tell more than 20 people.

70% of buying experiences are based on how the customer feels they are being treated

It takes 12 positive experiences to make up for one unresolved negative experience

https://beyondphilosophy.com/15-statistics-that-should-change-the-business-world-but-havent/

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

These pvp events are very much like when a restaurant puts on a special theme event to try and get new people to come be new customers, hopefully to become loyal repeat customers. Sort of like if a restaurant advertises a special Super Bowl watch party, or an extra decorated Halloween masquerade, such like that.

However, if a new prospective customer attending that event is treated rudely by the people who are obviously already regular customers, then the new people are exceptionally unlikely to return. “That place, it looked nice but was filled with a bunch of jerks.”

People don’t spend their money on things that they feel will be a ripoff. So too you can’t expect people to spend their time on something that they feel will just get them treated poorly. And that’s the way to look at it, the players are all customers to each other - people have time to spend and they want to spend it where they will have fun AND not be treated rudely.

These events are trying to sell pvp to new people. So the new people spend some of their finite time there, only to have their fun derailed by jerks who treat them rudely “Git Gud” or “it is a pvp zone so suck it up carebear”.

If regular customers were insulting other people as they walked in the door of a restaurant, that group of jerks would be told to behave politely or leave. If the jerks were allowed to continue being rude to others, eventually they would drive away all the non-jerks. “Why should I go there to eat? Those jerks are rude to everyone and the owner doesn’t do anything about it. I’m not going there anymore!”

Well, in eso pvp those jerks have been left there to shout “Git Gud” and teabag and gank and spawn camp and quest camp.

96% of unhappy customers don’t complain, however 91% of those will simply leave and never come back.

A dissatisfied customer will tell between 9-15 people about their experience. Around 13% of dissatisfied customers tell more than 20 people.

70% of buying experiences are based on how the customer feels they are being treated

It takes 12 positive experiences to make up for one unresolved negative experience

https://beyondphilosophy.com/15-statistics-that-should-change-the-business-world-but-havent/

All PVP content is free or part of the base game at this point. There's no immediate financial reason to change anything (which is probably why ZOS can't be bothered to fix things like camping inside quest giver buildings despite a number of requests from PVPers, including myself.)

ZOS keeps encouraging players to experience ALL of the game because its good for balance, good for the niches of players who like that content, and keeps the daily login numbers up on a monthly basis.

Moreover, I'm of the opinion that sheltering players entering PVP-enabled zones from routine aspects of PVP like ganking, camping, ball groups, zerging, or whatever the complaint of the week is, is not setting anyone up for long-term success in PVP. Events take all the regular features of Imperial City/Cyrodiil up to eleven. If you don't like them during events, you probably won't enjoy them on a regular basis. That's okay! Not all players have to like all content. In fact, this event you can avoid Imperial City entirely if you hate the completely normal ganking, camping, and zerging.

And people like the OP is talking about are indeed sheltered if they think they can attack first freely without expecting to be killed in return. Like, I get the impulse to "see it, kill it." I see an enemy, I'll try to kill it too, even on my squishy AF PVE-built farming toon. But I don't complain when I get spanked by someone who's not running around in medium armor with 20k health...

Leaving a wide berth around the visiting pve players isn’t sheltering them.

You are familiar with the concept of easing into something, right? For example, running the shower at a comfortable temperature and then turning it hotter after the initial rinse. Another example, sipping the fresh hot coffee at first and then taking larger gulps after you’ve acclimated to the heat.

In both of those you are not going straight from normal to blazing hot in a single step. Doing that would be unpleasant and painful! You’d yell and shout, jumping away from the scalding shower and spitting out the lava coffee.

So what makes you think it’s constructive to subject the visiting pve players to full strength pvp straight from pve?

Do you and the rest of the current pvp residents have any clue as to how many people used to play pvp daily? There were 3 of the month long campaigns, each alliance made one their home and there was always one or two bars worth of people ‘visiting’ the campaigns of the other alliances for fights which sometimes hit the limit when people felt like going to war. That means 5 to 7 population bars for the month campaign with surges rising higher. Then there was the 7 day campaigns. You want to play a week campaign where only scrolls go for scoring? Yep. How about a week campaign where only keeps have your alliance points? Got it. Or maybe a week campaign where only resources counted? Got that too. And of course the standard week long campaign too. And then there were two under-50 campaigns. Looking at the list of retired campaigns, I remember chillrend, azura, shor, haderus, skeleton key, and others.

It was not unusual to see half of all those sitting at 2/3rds full. Count it up. Remember, this is counting how many bars of your teammates you would see. I’ll even underestimate a bit...
3 bars for the month alliance home
2 bars for the month alliance B
2 bars for the months alliance C
1 to 3 bars for week scrolls
1 to 3 bars for week keeps
1 to 3 bars for week resources
2 to 3 bars for week standard
1 to 3 bars for under 50

Add that up. 13 to 23 bars worth of people of each alliance running around in pvp. What do you have now? You’ve got a ghost town, gasping for each breath trying to cling to life. What happened? The jerks acted true to their nature and chipped away at the fun of others, so the participants stopped coming.

Instead of making an effort to ensure the *visiting* pve players get a full strength dose of pvp (thus guaranteeing that nearly all will merely visit pvp), what you should be doing is being as welcoming as possible.

You want the visitors to have fun, not be a punching bag. Visitors who had fun will return. Visitors who got punched and had their loot taken away will find better things to do with their time in the future.

Cryptical wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Cryptical wrote: »

These pvp events are very much like when a restaurant puts on a special theme event to try and get new people to come be new customers, hopefully to become loyal repeat customers. Sort of like if a restaurant advertises a special Super Bowl watch party, or an extra decorated Halloween masquerade, such like that.

However, if a new prospective customer attending that event is treated rudely by the people who are obviously already regular customers, then the new people are exceptionally unlikely to return. “That place, it looked nice but was filled with a bunch of jerks.”

People don’t spend their money on things that they feel will be a ripoff. So too you can’t expect people to spend their time on something that they feel will just get them treated poorly. And that’s the way to look at it, the players are all customers to each other - people have time to spend and they want to spend it where they will have fun AND not be treated rudely.

These events are trying to sell pvp to new people. So the new people spend some of their finite time there, only to have their fun derailed by jerks who treat them rudely “Git Gud” or “it is a pvp zone so suck it up carebear”.

If regular customers were insulting other people as they walked in the door of a restaurant, that group of jerks would be told to behave politely or leave. If the jerks were allowed to continue being rude to others, eventually they would drive away all the non-jerks. “Why should I go there to eat? Those jerks are rude to everyone and the owner doesn’t do anything about it. I’m not going there anymore!”

Well, in eso pvp those jerks have been left there to shout “Git Gud” and teabag and gank and spawn camp and quest camp.

96% of unhappy customers don’t complain, however 91% of those will simply leave and never come back.

A dissatisfied customer will tell between 9-15 people about their experience. Around 13% of dissatisfied customers tell more than 20 people.

70% of buying experiences are based on how the customer feels they are being treated

It takes 12 positive experiences to make up for one unresolved negative experience

https://beyondphilosophy.com/15-statistics-that-should-change-the-business-world-but-havent/

All PVP content is free or part of the base game at this point. There's no immediate financial reason to change anything (which is probably why ZOS can't be bothered to fix things like camping inside quest giver buildings despite a number of requests from PVPers, including myself.)

ZOS keeps encouraging players to experience ALL of the game because its good for balance, good for the niches of players who like that content, and keeps the daily login numbers up on a monthly basis.

Moreover, I'm of the opinion that sheltering players entering PVP-enabled zones from routine aspects of PVP like ganking, camping, ball groups, zerging, or whatever the complaint of the week is, is not setting anyone up for long-term success in PVP. Events take all the regular features of Imperial City/Cyrodiil up to eleven. If you don't like them during events, you probably won't enjoy them on a regular basis. That's okay! Not all players have to like all content. In fact, this event you can avoid Imperial City entirely if you hate the completely normal ganking, camping, and zerging.

And people like the OP is talking about are indeed sheltered if they think they can attack first freely without expecting to be killed in return. Like, I get the impulse to "see it, kill it." I see an enemy, I'll try to kill it too, even on my squishy AF PVE-built farming toon. But I don't complain when I get spanked by someone who's not running around in medium armor with 20k health...

Leaving a wide berth around the visiting pve players isn’t sheltering them.

...

You want the visitors to have fun, not be a punching bag. Visitors who had fun will return. Visitors who got punched and had their loot taken away will find better things to do with their time in the future.

Your first point makes no sense in relation to the topic of this thread. We're talking about players who attacked first, as clear an indication that they are open for PVP as one can ask for, who then complain that the PVPers should go easy on them after they're dead.

And no, I'm not convinced that "visiting" players need to be sheltered from the reality of PVP - that players will gank, camp, and zerg them - in the hopes that they'll stick around past the event only to learn that...huh, players will absolutely gank, camp, and zerg them once the event is over with. Or that players need to be sheltered from the reality that ZOS built Imperial City to incentivize killing other players to take their Tel Var from the beginning. If those are deal breakers for someone, let it be a dealbreaker because it ain't getting any better after the event. Less players, but thew same old playstyles.

Look, I write a guide for both the Imperial City Celebration and Midyear Mayhem events that's about how to deal with PVP when you dislike it. Its all about ways to cope. Ways to "ease yourself into PVP" if you prefer. What I don't do in my guides is put the responsibility on other players to make sure you have a good time if you want to not be killed by those "mean" PVPers. If you try to insist that other players have to "shelter" you, you're in for a world of bad experiences. Nah, I gotta be honest. In PVP, the enemy is going to try to kill you. They're the enemy. That's the intended point of PVP. You can try your best to avoid the enemy or fight back, but everyone dies eventually. Give yourself some grace and accept that you'll die a lot.

I want visitors to experience PVP with the understanding that they willingly queued up for a PVP zone, which includes the fully intended risk that enemy players will find and kill them. if that isn't fun and they never come back except when following the siren call of event tickets (and skyshards, and leads, and other rewards), well, they were never going to enjoy non-event PVP very much anyway.

As for what that does to PVP population...unless you think that ESO's PVPers have somehow gotten more kill-happy while the PVEers have gotten more kill-adverse over the years, I think the real culprit is declining performance.
Fix PVP performance (without gutting AOEs), and I'm pretty sure we'll see more PVP population from players who actually love PVP for what it is.

I think it was @Cryptical who mentioned:

"You want the visitors to have fun, not be a punching bag. Visitors who had fun will return. Visitors who got punched and had their loot taken away will find better things to do with their time in the future"

And I would have to respectfully disagree - not with your logic - but with the idea that it's supposed to actually be "fun" for the former-and-soon-to-be-again PvE players.

the ZoS higher ups have repeatedly stated that IC was meant to be a gank-fest.

So look at what is happening.. an event that brings in influx of non-PvP-skilled folks to come into IC and get killed, with slightly more Telvars than their limited skills would normally net them.

This event is NOT aimed at PvE'ers, it's aimed at PvP'ers

It gives a nice increase in targeting and opportunities to (some would say "initiate" I would lean toward "bully" or "haze" which I see as synonyms here). This is an event aimed at providing fodder for gankers ... that is what is happening, and the Devs/managment are not silly enough to have this be accidental.

The increase in telvars is for the gankers

The boxes are bribery to keep PvE'ers coming back and providing the above.

newtinmpls wrote: »

I think it was @Cryptical who mentioned:

"You want the visitors to have fun, not be a punching bag. Visitors who had fun will return. Visitors who got punched and had their loot taken away will find better things to do with their time in the future"

And I would have to respectfully disagree - not with your logic - but with the idea that it's supposed to actually be "fun" for the former-and-soon-to-be-again PvE players.

the ZoS higher ups have repeatedly stated that IC was meant to be a gank-fest.

So look at what is happening.. an event that brings in influx of non-PvP-skilled folks to come into IC and get killed, with slightly more Telvars than their limited skills would normally net them.

This event is NOT aimed at PvE'ers, it's aimed at PvP'ers

It gives a nice increase in targeting and opportunities to (some would say "initiate" I would lean toward "bully" or "haze" which I see as synonyms here). This is an event aimed at providing fodder for gankers ... that is what is happening, and the Devs/managment are not silly enough to have this be accidental.

The increase in telvars is for the gankers

The boxes are bribery to keep PvE'ers coming back and providing the above.

You have it wrong. You think the event is there to feed fresh meat to the existing dwindling number of pvp regulars.

However, server hardware costs money. Server electricity costs money, as well as physical space and electricity to run the air conditioners to feed those servers cold air, plus all the business overhead that goes into server maintenance. Pvp has no income stream - no housing, no crown costumes - the city is free and the bundle has stuff you can’t even use in IC. It no longer brings money in, yet money must be spent to keep it running.

It’s the pve players that provide said $$, so it would be pure idiocy to have the strategy of taking your income stream and sending it to have a negative experience. You would run the risk of tainting your main income stream with the desire to go to some other game!

Or, that entire paragraph can be summed up into old time wisdom from my grandparent’s no-bull era “don’t [snip] where you eat”.

I declare that Zos does NOT want their cash cow pve players to have negative experiences in pvp. And that declaration has evidence in the fact that the recent TOS/Code if conduct changes include a prohibition on briefing other players.

Is it even possible to grief other players in pve? I’m having a hard time imagining anything that might qualify as grieving in pve - just minor irritations. You can’t really follow someone and manipulate your twilight into their camera view, that’s random. You can’t blind them with aoe. You can’t kill steal, they still get the loot drop. You can’t force a direct interaction with their gameplay. I can only think of mud balls at the outfit station, and the arsehole throwing mud balls cannot follow you if you move to another city.

But in pvp... there’s plenty of opportunity to grief players there. You can directly interact with others to the point of totally preventing others from progressing their game past a point that you are camping.

It’s taken forever-and-a-day; but Zos finally saw there was a problem, identified it, had umpteen million hours of meetings over the reason for declining pvp participation, umpteen million hours of meetings over the response to people shunning pvp, and eventually added plain old griefing to the list of things they forbid. Zos definitely does not move with any alacrity on game issues & has almost a religious ban on applying newly learned lessons to older content. My billboard example of that ban is that even though it’s been forever since the addition of those blue portals to dungeons, there is STILL no portal at the end of bloodroot forge. Upon completion you cannot walk out, no blue portal to take you to the entrance. In order to leave you must travel to player or leave group and wait for the looooooong timer to expire.

Word to the wise. Think on this: It’s such a tiny thing, to add a blue portal there, yet it hasn’t been done. However, the code of conduct for the entire game was updated to forbid something that is a pvp issue.

Rephrase that for perspective... if they put blue portals at the end of all the dungeons it would be worth just one sentence in the patch notes: “updated dungeons so everyone can exit after victory. Run, run to freedom my pretties!” But with this ban on griefing they paid lawyers those large lawyer fees to look over the new code of conduct and give it a thumbs up.

What is beginning with this Comduct change, is like those image memes that come up from google “DM is tired of your [snip]”. Such as this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/DnDGreentext/comments/99zkjy/the_dms_curse/

Prepare, pvp jerks. Zos is summoning the walking volcano. They don’t bother with blue portals in dungeons, but you got them to spend money on lawyers because of your jerk behavior.

The DM has had it with your [snip].

[Edited to remove Profanity]

nukk3r wrote: »

Yes, this is what gets me every time. Why does a CP 300 Champion of Anequina think it's a good idea to attack a max CP Merciless?

Probably they have no idea what Merciless means. Along the same lines they recognize Maelstrom Arena Champion but not Stormproof or Flawless Conq. They might recognize Dragonstar arena champ but not Boethiah's scythe. Just casuals being casual, often with 20k health or less, maybe not even wearing complete sets or a mish mash of armor weights.

A. PVE content might pay the bills, but ZOS doesn't agree with players for whom any PVP is a negative experience.
Proof: 2 Midyear Mayhem events, Imperial City celebration, Anniversary event, and putting leads in Imperial City.

There's reason to deal with actual jerk players, but it's nonsensical to act like players are entitled to be sheltered from the enemy or losing Tel Var in a PVP zone they willingly queued up for.

B. You seem to want ZOS to discipline players for killing people in a PVP zone, even when the "victim" attacked first or has numerous other options to achieve their goals. I want ZOS to tangibly fix some of the most negative experiences in PVP: dying to enemies while trapped in a loading screen in the sewers and Cyrodiil towns.

ZOS might do the former after someone complains about dying in a PVP zone they willingly queued up for, but ZOS hasn't bothered to fix the latter in two years of IC and Cyrodiil events. Priorities seem a little skewed there.

C. That last bit, Cryptical? You seriously mean to suggest that a "visiting" player who attacks first and then gets killed isn't a totally normal aspect of PVP?

LOL. I didn't think you were that serious about sheltering players from PVP in a PVP-enabled zone they not only willingly queued up for, but willingly attacked other players in.


The DM needs to step on actual jerk behavior. Harassment, hunting specific players, and toxic whispers/emotes should be (and always could have been, under the old TOS) disciplined. What the DM doesn't need to do is dance around players who willingly queued up for a PVP-enabled zone and then feel shocked and hurt when PVP happens in a PVP zone.