Oil Pots on Ground - Nerf Incoming?

tobyz28 · April 2014

There needs to be some way to prevent oil colliding on the same surface as the pot. With no FF people can just lay pots down in front of a door on the inside of a resource building and insta kill anyone going inside. I'm all for great tactics, but combined with the laggy conditions on servers even a co-ordinated rush on this setup is almost always still a guaranteed fail

Possible Suggestions:
-Require oil pots to have a minimum fall height altogether.
-Maybe reduce the spread radius based on height, with ground level being a tiny circle the size of the pot.
-Friendly fire the oil pots
-Fire pot takes fire damage

aftershox · April 2014

Don't mean to start a flame war(pun intended

) but fire pots are fine. They cost AP, can be destroyed and have a cooldown timer.

TheOnix · April 2014

aftershox wrote: »

Don't mean to start a flame war(pun intended ) but fire pots are fine. They cost AP, can be destroyed and have a cooldown timer.

You should probably read the OP before commenting.

I agree with OP, I foresee restrictions on where you can place oil pots to make them balanced.

Hafgar_W · April 2014

Friendly fire would allow griefing and as such, it is NEVER a good option. A minimum fall height can't hurt though, since oil pots aren't supposed to be used on the ground anyway.

feldegast_92_ESO · April 2014

Would be nice if they had a bit larger minimum range from other siege so you can't place 4 burning oil on top of a stair at a bridge or something.

TripleZero · April 2014

Oil pots need to be restricted to walls and towers, problem solved. building an oil pot on the ground is just ridicoulus.

beravinprb19_ESO · April 2014

I think the main problem is that a small guild can go inside the towers you find around farms, mines and lumbermills. There is only one way inside, and the guild can just set up oil pots and be pretty much invincible. Its not an exploit, but it sure feels that way. I mean, you cant even siege the towers, so good luck trying to get them out of the damn thing : \

Phoenix99 · April 2014

I agree, that oils should not be able to target the same level they are on. I believe the designers simply did not think of this application of oils

While you can ignore these when they go into a tower on resource point, these are really bad when deployed inside keeps at breaches or gate on ground level. Add some oil from the top to support and good healers behind, and you are not capturing the keep any time soon. You basically are forced to making multiple entry points to fight against this efficiently.

LilMcGinley · April 2014

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

I think the main problem is that a small guild can go inside the towers you find around farms, mines and lumbermills. There is only one way inside, and the guild can just set up oil pots and be pretty much invincible. Its not an exploit, but it sure feels that way. I mean, you cant even siege the towers, so good luck trying to get them out of the damn thing : \

LOL... how about you don't flip the camp before trying to take down the tower? Also, if the enemy forces are trying to bait you into easy kills and you recognize this.. why do you go into the tower? They are a useless force on the map at that point because they are just sitting stagnant in a pointless tower and not actually putting pressure on any major objectives..

Sidenote: yes, it is funny as hell when people give us free kills.

tobyz28 · April 2014

The other issue is that not only are these towers 1 way in, they're 1 way in AND you need to click to load into them. You cannot see what you are running into "at all" (when in "reality" you'd see the comrade who ran into you burning in a pool of oil and consequently decide to "not jump in just yet").

This is very different than a keep where you would see what's going on before you realize your burning in an impossible to avoid pot of oil....

beravinprb19_ESO · April 2014

LilMcGinley wrote: »

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

I think the main problem is that a small guild can go inside the towers you find around farms, mines and lumbermills. There is only one way inside, and the guild can just set up oil pots and be pretty much invincible. Its not an exploit, but it sure feels that way. I mean, you cant even siege the towers, so good luck trying to get them out of the damn thing : \

LOL... how about you don't flip the camp before trying to take down the tower? Also, if the enemy forces are trying to bait you into easy kills and you recognize this.. why do you go into the tower? They are a useless force on the map at that point because they are just sitting stagnant in a pointless tower and not actually putting pressure on any major objectives..

Sidenote: yes, it is funny as hell when people give us free kills.

When did I say I went into the tower? Hmm? But thats besides the point, if you do not go in, then how do you expect to get them out? It takes longer to siege a tower than it does to siege both the inner and outer layers of a keep. Besides, how do you deal with the people before you take the farm? The moment they think they are at a disadvantage, they will run inside. Sure, you might catch one or two, but the problem still remains.

And no, they are not a useless force on the map. They can come out to threaten that farm whenever they think it is safe. In taking said farm, they cut off reinforcements to the nearby keep. Or, do you think cutting off reinforcements is a useless thing to do? The fact of the matter remains that towers are harder to take down than keeps, and that a small, organized group can easily hold the only entrance with nothing other than a few oils.

Phoenix99 · April 2014

while for now oils in towers are annoying (especially with ppl spamming pulsar at the entrance) you have two ways of dealing with that. Raze the tower with siege equipment, before capping OR simply ignore and depending on the size of the group, leave a gank squad around. You do not need to kill them to take the objective, and if there is a lot of them, just destroy the tower before capping the point.

Carraig · April 2014

I'll be honest, I was part of a group who used the oilpot on the ground. And yes, I even manned it. I had no problem with lag whatsoever, so I don't consider lag to be a valid reason to restrict it. The friendly fire damage is something that is debatable, but then it should count for all siege equipment, imo. This should also mean that you cannot give fire support without hitting your own players during battles. Which would give room for a very valid tactic to prevent incoming fire: close in on the enemy as quick as possible. And let's add a new achievement: kill 10/100/1000 friendlies.

Back the oilpot inside resource towers: You are able to look inside through the windows to check whether the thing has been set up or not. So you can actually check if it is safe to enter and decide what to do. If people want to storm inside and literally go out in a "blaze" of glory, it's their choice.
Everybody can deploy oilpots on certain positions, so it's not imbalanced imo.
And everything is allowed in love and war, according to the philosophers.

Whether you like it or not, the possibility is there. If it can change the outcome of a battle or delay the enemy from attacking a keep or resource, I will use it. But I also realise it can be used against me. It's a Cyrodiilic occupational hazard. Phoenix99 already gave some valid tactics to deal or not deal with them. I also noticed other tactics to enter the tower, take out the firepot and kill the defenders. But I will leave that to you to find out yourself.

But as said, the possibility is there, it's up to you to use it or not. And if you don't like it, just remember what Harry S. Truman said: "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

aftershox · April 2014

TheOnix wrote: »

aftershox wrote: »

Don't mean to start a flame war(pun intended ) but fire pots are fine. They cost AP, can be destroyed and have a cooldown timer.

You should probably read the OP before commenting.

I agree with OP, I foresee restrictions on where you can place oil pots to make them balanced.

I read the OP just fine. Same point applies.

However just to clarify it's probably not what ZM intended to be used on the ground but there are the usual siege weapon placement restrictions so you can't just line them up next to trebs. Fire pots take damage just like any siege weapon.

tobyz28 · April 2014

aftershox wrote: »

TheOnix wrote: »

aftershox wrote: »

Don't mean to start a flame war(pun intended ) but fire pots are fine. They cost AP, can be destroyed and have a cooldown timer.

You should probably read the OP before commenting.

I agree with OP, I foresee restrictions on where you can place oil pots to make them balanced.

I read the OP just fine. Same point applies.

However just to clarify it's probably not what ZM intended to be used on the ground but there are the usual siege weapon placement restrictions so you can't just line them up next to trebs. Fire pots take damage just like any siege weapon.

Sounds like you're still missing the point... it has nothing to do with lining them up to trebs...

reggielee · April 2014

how else will a skeleton crew survive a 100+ zerg. it makes sense that oil can be spilled whereever it can flow from the pot. I do think that using them under the seige door itself is a bit iffy, the fire should burn and weaken the door as well as leaching under it to enemies outside

tobyz28 · April 2014

Carraig wrote: »

I'll be honest, I was part of a group who used the oilpot on the ground. And yes, I even manned it. I had no problem with lag whatsoever, so I don't consider lag to be a valid reason to restrict it. The friendly fire damage is something that is debatable, but then it should count for all siege equipment, imo. This should also mean that you cannot give fire support without hitting your own players during battles. Which would give room for a very valid tactic to prevent incoming fire: close in on the enemy as quick as possible. And let's add a new achievement: kill 10/100/1000 friendlies.

Back the oilpot inside resource towers: You are able to look inside through the windows to check whether the thing has been set up or not. So you can actually check if it is safe to enter and decide what to do. If people want to storm inside and literally go out in a "blaze" of glory, it's their choice.
Everybody can deploy oilpots on certain positions, so it's not imbalanced imo.
And everything is allowed in love and war, according to the philosophers.

Whether you like it or not, the possibility is there. If it can change the outcome of a battle or delay the enemy from attacking a keep or resource, I will use it. But I also realise it can be used against me. It's a Cyrodiilic occupational hazard. Phoenix99 already gave some valid tactics to deal or not deal with them. I also noticed other tactics to enter the tower, take out the firepot and kill the defenders. But I will leave that to you to find out yourself.

But as said, the possibility is there, it's up to you to use it or not. And if you don't like it, just remember what Harry S. Truman said: "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

No fault seen for using it in clever way! I have too.. however Oil Pots on the ground would be similar to being able to shoot catapults straight up and down over yourself. You're not able to because it doesn't make sense

With no FF (I agree keeping things with no FF makes the most sense). Personally I still think it's not a balanced tactic within those structures, nor is it really a realistic use of them (--- > Given that we agree that FF is a bad thing

).

"If" FF were enabled, or FF to even just the player - I would say allow players to tip pots at point blank since its a choice they have to weigh themselves

. I'm not endorsing FF fire, i'm saying it makes more sense to disallow tipping on level surfaces than enabling FF.

Carraig · April 2014

reggielee wrote: »

how else will a skeleton crew survive a 100+ zerg. it makes sense that oil can be spilled whereever it can flow from the pot. I do think that using them under the seige door itself is a bit iffy, the fire should burn and weaken the door as well as leaching under it to enemies outside

I believe the door gets damaged by the fire; I noticed the healthbar decreasing whenever it got hit by "own" ballistae fire from the inside. And I've heard defenders on the ground floor saying that they got hit while they were not in a fight. When we checked where it might come from we noticed attackers outside with an oil pot next to a window, trying to pour it inside. So maybe that was what caused the hits. But I can't say for sure if this is the case.

eol · April 2014

agreed, this should be changed, that goes against the whole idea of how flaming oil should be used. In fact it will be changed, just a matter of when they can get to it.

TheOnix · April 2014

aftershox wrote: »

TheOnix wrote: »

aftershox wrote: »

Don't mean to start a flame war(pun intended ) but fire pots are fine. They cost AP, can be destroyed and have a cooldown timer.

You should probably read the OP before commenting.

I agree with OP, I foresee restrictions on where you can place oil pots to make them balanced.

I read the OP just fine. Same point applies.

However just to clarify it's probably not what ZM intended to be used on the ground but there are the usual siege weapon placement restrictions so you can't just line them up next to trebs. Fire pots take damage just like any siege weapon.

Alright, let me spell this out for you...

The ONLY issue that this thread is covering is that Oil Pots can be put in places they cannot be put, aka on ground floor.

Thats it. Their cost/damage/effectiveness is all fine as is.

SwampRaider · April 2014

whats wrong with oil on the floor? are you sad that you didn't think of it first?
I LOVE sneaking behind a bunch of bunched up people that are guarding trebuchets and wiping them all out.

Clearly it is their fault for not having situational awareness.

If i see a bunch of people about to head through a gate, I HAVE A RIGHT to set up oil on the stairs to defend that chokepoint

TheOnix · April 2014

SwampRaider wrote: »

whats wrong with oil on the floor? are you sad that you didn't think of it first?
I LOVE sneaking behind a bunch of bunched up people that are guarding trebuchets and wiping them all out.

Clearly it is their fault for not having situational awareness.

If i see a bunch of people about to head through a gate, I HAVE A RIGHT to set up oil on the stairs to defend that chokepoint

You just stated two completely separate situations, one which should not be allowed because it's high potential for abuse, and another one which is fairly reasonable.
And please don't say you have the right to do anything(in a video game that someone else made), it makes you sound very egocentric.

tobyz28 · April 2014

I would also like to add that the oil AOE goes through walls, which adds to the sillyness of combat over a resource tower. Right now the best way to storm a tower is to place pots on the ledge outside a tower and tip them through the wall to those inside and send cloaked people in at the same time. It can be countered, but because of how they function the combat now is just silly...