A rant of loosly tied together pvp things because I need to vent somehow

Josira · June 2020

Ok...I just..dont get it
Ever since the latest patch ive been dying to everything in pvp. with no chance of survival. 2 seconds,I die.
Especially gank builds
Now I consider gank builds part of the game. it can be a fun play style. not a play style I enjoy.
so this isnt going to be a nerf gank thread.
or whatever
just a rant
How
how the hell
is it when I spec into damage
that people who have specked into tankyness do more damage then me?
Is it because im trying a melee mag necro? was it a mistake to even attempt to use the melee spamamble and build around it?
I mean either way I have barely any damage.
then I go onto my glass cannon mag dk. now he always had issues surviving. but he could compensate with hea-oh wait. not anymore.
somehow people specked into tankyness do more damage then him.
am I missing something?
"Oh its a learn to play issue" Bugger off. im not a good player true. alright at best,mediocre at worse. not the worst player. I know how stats and skills in the game work and I try my best to synergise with them...and then theorycraft and spend too much gold into builds that look good on paper then dont work in practice at all
is it something to do with light armor? the healing nerf? the fact Magcro's are the second worst pvp class only slightly ahead of Mag Nightblades?
the fact this new vampirism skill line sucks(no pun intended) and has no magicka gap closer? the fact that im trying to make myself tankier with a sword and board and for the gapcloser that is just not working out because then I dont have stamina to break free?
did they buff damage on stamina characters somewhere?
did they nerf light armor?
I dont know.
Just so burnt out on this game. I repeat this damnable cycle every patch
ZOS makes a change somewhere
I think "Oh I can theory craft a build around something now"
I spent over a 100k gold that takes me a few weeks to farm in the first place for overly expensive gear being sold only by the top trade guilds that buy any version of it being sold for less so they can raise the prices
then
the build doesnt work
I either come across some unkillable 1vxer that even if I do my stratergy of ignoring them they just rush me down and kill me within 2 seconds then go back to jumping around like an ADHD child who has had too much caffiene
or I run into a group of 3-5 people and melt.
Oh I used to play battlegrounds with my boyfriend. that was fun. a lot of fun actually. we worked together as a two man team,and it was the most fun ive ever had in this game! we won some...lost a lot but it was fun!
then ZoS decided to nerf that fun for nonexistant 'premades'
oh sure
cause that sure solved the problems of having one team steamroll the other 2
suuuure did.
this game is a mess
I spent ages farming for max level scrying
then tried to farm imperial city for leads to the band of malacath
made the mistake of going above ground. and then getting ganked.
went back to sewers,as I found out in pts that you could get the lead I needed via sewer portals
get ganked right by alliance base
was with my boyfriend to
both of us seem to be deleted within a second
We have about 3k impen
but its like we have zero
and I dont even know why im farming for this stupid ring
for a build that wont work because its not in the meta?
for a sorc build focused on player based aoe's?
why am I even bothering anymore
a fun thing for me is when I theory craft and builds work
Like my glass cannon magic dk
well
did work. before the healing change.

anyways have fun with the wall of text. just needed to scream somewhere.

OBJnoob · June 2020

Nice rant

god I can relate to so much of that. I play on Xbox so I don’t know much about the new changes yet I am really hoping I don’t melt to things all day long.

The tanks doing insane damage thing is a small problem with the game. I don’t think it makes a lot of sense that spell or weapon damage scales self healing also. Kinda odd stylistically I think. But it is the way it is... and, for pvp at least, if you’ve been stacking crit or penetration may I suggest raw damage instead? Or max magic of course. And perhaps you can benefit a bit yourself.

Also, much of their supposed insane damage is going to come from things like balorghs, fury armor set, clever alchemist potion proc, or a delayed high damage burst skill that can be timed with an ultimate, stun, execute, or all three. But you knew that I think

So what I mean to say is this... in a nutshell. Everything revolves around ultimates. It is perhaps wise to not be so tanky as mobile. Think, when creating characters, what can I do to reliably avoid somebody for 5 or 10 seconds? Some of those same skills will also allow you to walk freely through inner keep sieges “looking” tanky cuz your health doesn’t move and therefore nobody wants to target you. But you aren’t a tank

you’re headhunting. And building your own ultimate.

raistin87 · June 2020

Are you playing no-CP? Do you have the ring?

Goregrinder · June 2020

Without knowing individual gear setups, it's hard to answer that question. If you're asking how it's possible altogether in ESO, there are a few ways to do it.

You have to understand a few things:

1. Damage.

Boosting damage comes in many forms. Bumping pen, decreasing another's resists, penetrating shields directly, stacking straight WD and SD, stacking buffings that boost any of those things. In PVP the type of damage that matters is "burst" damage, so using anything that can help do a LOT of damage in a little amount of time will also increase this. buffing your crit damage modifier, etc.

Another form of damage is from proc sets, AKA ZOS playing the game for you as the meme suggests. Zaan is probably my favorite burst proc set in PVP, since it procs of LA/HA and can do something like 50k damage within like 6 seconds. All you have to do is wait for the proc, then go for a stun/CC, then add your burst combo on top.

Burst combos are important in PVP, even on a build that hits like a wet noodle. Comboing multiple damaging or buffing abilities that can be fired within 2 seconds. That could be a prebuff, a gap closer, then stun, then ulti, then execute all cast back to back. You gotta learn how to use them, them pick the order that best fits your build and playstyle. You would be surprised how much damage you can actually do in 4 seconds when you learn this.

2. Tankiness.

Tankiness comes from many things in ESO. Most people think stacking resists and rocking a shield is how you be tanky. It is ONE way to be tanky, but "tanky" just means being "survivable" in PVP terms. You can stack resists, stack shields, run a permablock build with SnB, you can try to abuse roll dodging with roll dodge sets or stack well fitted traits, you can stack impen to nullify everyone else's crit damage on you, you can also just mitigate or avoid some of that damage completely by running potentates/swift/shuffle/pirate skelie/etc.

Proc sets can also apply here, but the MAIN way to be tanky in PVP in ESO, is to manually avoid as much damage as possible. AKA learning how to move when you need to, how to kite when you need to, how to LOS behind a rock or pillar when you need to, when to run away from a fight when you need to. You can't take damage if you are out of range from other players hitting you or they can't target you.

Another form of tankiness or survivability is obviously healing. Stacking hots, running a burst heal, running healing proc sets, stacking health recovery (not as viable these days but still works on some builds), etc. If you can't avoid incomming damage, can't dodge it, or even mitigate it, then by god you can surely avenge the damage!....by healing it.

Also, people sleep on Block in PVP. Just because you don't run a sword and shield, or don't stack sturdy traits does not mean block won't work for you. You can still Block! See someone popping their ulti? A DK about to leap on your ass? Slam that block button! Watch how you just survive a *** load of damage when you should probably be dead.

With that said, how do people do a *** load of damage while being able to take a *** load of damage? Well you seem to be focusing on just the gear or spells they are wearing, but the honest answer is a combination of everything above. They are probably refreshing their hots when they should, wait to burst heal when it's most resource efficient to do so, probably dodge rolling every 5 or 6 seconds, probably block when they think they are getting ulti'd, and probably have a balance of survivability and damage.

They probably also mastered their burst combo, and run a CC. Even with a build that runs 33k resists, you can still get someone from 100 to 0 with a well time CC, popping your Ult, dropping your burst combo, and getting a lucky proc off your set.

Really there are many combinations of gear, spells, class passives, etc that can acheive this, which is why theorycrafting is fun for many of us. Finding a new combo that achieves the same performance or better then wrecking in PVP is always satisfying. But really half of the answer is people learning how to play, how to move, when to cast, what to cast, when to run, when to burst. Sometimes going for a burst combo when you're at 20% health is the correct line of play rather than going on the defensive and wasting your resources on healing. You can't really learn this anywhere other than trial and error, and experiencing it first hand.

kylewwefan · June 2020

the best PvP in this game is in the under 50 ques and campaign.

Waffennacht · June 2020

Bad opponents make PvP fun

Jeremy · June 2020

Josira wrote: »

Ok...I just..dont get it
Ever since the latest patch ive been dying to everything in pvp. with no chance of survival. 2 seconds,I die.

lol

Welcome to the club. Even with over 50k health/32k resist and shield spamming there is no chance for survival. 2 seconds is being generous. I doubt I even live that long to be honest.

With the current state of this game's PvP - I recommend playing a gank build. My Night Blade's invisible is really the only defense I have found now outside of Mist Form and it's the only character of mine I've had any success at when it comes to staying alive and having a mildly enjoyable experience in PvP. Everything else I have just goes splat so fast it's frankly so stupid it's laughable.

I don't know who is in charge of PvP development right now but it's safe to say I do not appreciate their efforts. This game's PvP was a lot more fun before Greymoor dropped.

Jeremy · June 2020

OBJnoob wrote: »

It is perhaps wise to not be so tanky as mobile.

Mobility is definitely the way to go now.

Tanks are dead. I do no not advise you try and make a defensive character currently. You will not have fun I promise you.

Josira · June 2020

Yeah
Mobility is something I have yet to master
Most of my pvp experiance came from when tankiness was a lot easier.
With Burst,its hard to do on Magic Necro without proc sets. I run Caulruns on my mag necro,but that is a flawed set as its on any crits,and so can go off earlier then expected.
Nerineth's is also bad. but. I dont have zaan's and wouldnt get much from skoria,if at all,considering entropy is my only dot.
I dont like the idea of harmony set ups. I feel I would be losing too much damage for other abilities,and I dont like being a 1 trick character...I say playing a magic class with 2 offensive skills that are viable in pvp without harmony lol
anyways
Magic Dk can hit damage with his spamable the same amount as his ult(if set up the combo correctly). combined into leap it usually ends in a kill
In Pvp Mobility is king
But Im so used to playing on console with a laggy as hell server,as Im Australian,high ping gave me a lot of problems and the playstyle that worked the most for me where stand your ground sort of ones
ones that often where in light or medium armor,but where still..well..tanky. hell I guess in a way my old stamblade had mobility
that was gutted when they changed the morph of cloak that was the biggest part of his build to a bad heal. gutted further with the changes to shield bash and surprise attack,meaning my non meta settup went from unique to in the trash.

in the end I guess I just realise that
Magcro *** sucks. I can get more burst and more damage for less effort on my Mag Dk and Mag Warden. even less effort for my mag warden as holy hell they get buffs for damage done and I could have the worst stats and still be dealing damage.

Anyways
Thank yall for the advice
I uhh..honestly expected to wake up with people telling me im bad and should feel bad or get gud lul
it was refreshing to see otherwise

Josira · June 2020

Goregrinder wrote: »

Without knowing individual gear setups, it's hard to answer that question. If you're asking how it's possible altogether in ESO, there are a few ways to do it.

You have to understand a few things:

1. Damage.

Boosting damage comes in many forms. Bumping pen, decreasing another's resists, penetrating shields directly, stacking straight WD and SD, stacking buffings that boost any of those things. In PVP the type of damage that matters is "burst" damage, so using anything that can help do a LOT of damage in a little amount of time will also increase this. buffing your crit damage modifier, etc.

Another form of damage is from proc sets, AKA ZOS playing the game for you as the meme suggests. Zaan is probably my favorite burst proc set in PVP, since it procs of LA/HA and can do something like 50k damage within like 6 seconds. All you have to do is wait for the proc, then go for a stun/CC, then add your burst combo on top.

Burst combos are important in PVP, even on a build that hits like a wet noodle. Comboing multiple damaging or buffing abilities that can be fired within 2 seconds. That could be a prebuff, a gap closer, then stun, then ulti, then execute all cast back to back. You gotta learn how to use them, them pick the order that best fits your build and playstyle. You would be surprised how much damage you can actually do in 4 seconds when you learn this.

2. Tankiness.

Tankiness comes from many things in ESO. Most people think stacking resists and rocking a shield is how you be tanky. It is ONE way to be tanky, but "tanky" just means being "survivable" in PVP terms. You can stack resists, stack shields, run a permablock build with SnB, you can try to abuse roll dodging with roll dodge sets or stack well fitted traits, you can stack impen to nullify everyone else's crit damage on you, you can also just mitigate or avoid some of that damage completely by running potentates/swift/shuffle/pirate skelie/etc.

Proc sets can also apply here, but the MAIN way to be tanky in PVP in ESO, is to manually avoid as much damage as possible. AKA learning how to move when you need to, how to kite when you need to, how to LOS behind a rock or pillar when you need to, when to run away from a fight when you need to. You can't take damage if you are out of range from other players hitting you or they can't target you.

Another form of tankiness or survivability is obviously healing. Stacking hots, running a burst heal, running healing proc sets, stacking health recovery (not as viable these days but still works on some builds), etc. If you can't avoid incomming damage, can't dodge it, or even mitigate it, then by god you can surely avenge the damage!....by healing it.

Also, people sleep on Block in PVP. Just because you don't run a sword and shield, or don't stack sturdy traits does not mean block won't work for you. You can still Block! See someone popping their ulti? A DK about to leap on your ass? Slam that block button! Watch how you just survive a *** load of damage when you should probably be dead.

With that said, how do people do a *** load of damage while being able to take a *** load of damage? Well you seem to be focusing on just the gear or spells they are wearing, but the honest answer is a combination of everything above. They are probably refreshing their hots when they should, wait to burst heal when it's most resource efficient to do so, probably dodge rolling every 5 or 6 seconds, probably block when they think they are getting ulti'd, and probably have a balance of survivability and damage.

They probably also mastered their burst combo, and run a CC. Even with a build that runs 33k resists, you can still get someone from 100 to 0 with a well time CC, popping your Ult, dropping your burst combo, and getting a lucky proc off your set.

Really there are many combinations of gear, spells, class passives, etc that can acheive this, which is why theorycrafting is fun for many of us. Finding a new combo that achieves the same performance or better then wrecking in PVP is always satisfying. But really half of the answer is people learning how to play, how to move, when to cast, what to cast, when to run, when to burst. Sometimes going for a burst combo when you're at 20% health is the correct line of play rather than going on the defensive and wasting your resources on healing. You can't really learn this anywhere other than trial and error, and experiencing it first hand.

Your exactly on point

Goregrinder · June 2020

Josira wrote: »

Yeah
Mobility is something I have yet to master
Most of my pvp experiance came from when tankiness was a lot easier.
With Burst,its hard to do on Magic Necro without proc sets. I run Caulruns on my mag necro,but that is a flawed set as its on any crits,and so can go off earlier then expected.
Nerineth's is also bad. but. I dont have zaan's and wouldnt get much from skoria,if at all,considering entropy is my only dot.
I dont like the idea of harmony set ups. I feel I would be losing too much damage for other abilities,and I dont like being a 1 trick character...I say playing a magic class with 2 offensive skills that are viable in pvp without harmony lol
anyways
Magic Dk can hit damage with his spamable the same amount as his ult(if set up the combo correctly). combined into leap it usually ends in a kill
In Pvp Mobility is king
But Im so used to playing on console with a laggy as hell server,as Im Australian,high ping gave me a lot of problems and the playstyle that worked the most for me where stand your ground sort of ones
ones that often where in light or medium armor,but where still..well..tanky. hell I guess in a way my old stamblade had mobility
that was gutted when they changed the morph of cloak that was the biggest part of his build to a bad heal. gutted further with the changes to shield bash and surprise attack,meaning my non meta settup went from unique to in the trash.

in the end I guess I just realise that
Magcro *** sucks. I can get more burst and more damage for less effort on my Mag Dk and Mag Warden. even less effort for my mag warden as holy hell they get buffs for damage done and I could have the worst stats and still be dealing damage.

Anyways
Thank yall for the advice
I uhh..honestly expected to wake up with people telling me im bad and should feel bad or get gud lul
it was refreshing to see otherwise

Join the club, I've been waiting for Magcro to get some buffs for a year. They did mostly fix blast bones, but because necro in general is really reliant on it's pets, it's hard to slot non-class abilities, which results in clunkier skill layouts compared to other mag classes. It has no mobility at all, a lot of micro management going on, and no reliable stun. What it has going for it is mitigation, harmony and colossus if you can land it.

But yeah my magcro is shelved for PVP for now. Stamcro on the other hand, uses a lot more non-class skills which takes away some f it's chunkiness, plus it can double dip with defile, which can hit like a truck. It's only weakness is mobility which is easier to overcome as stam without losing damage. You can't really do that on magcro.

Josira · June 2020

raistin87 wrote: »

Are you playing no-CP? Do you have the ring?

I dont have the ring yet. its for a sorcerer I have yet to level up
have almost all the gear for it. its by no means even..well I dont think the build will be as useful now. I didnt think of how I plan to get people locked down into my player based aoe's with this sorc build

Theignson · June 2020

There is something here that I've often wondered too.

You can see super tanks , who take no damage but give no damage, you ignore them.

There are also glass cannon NB who hit very hard but who die immediately when you attack them.

But then there are some builds that do huge damage but your abilities hitting them do minimal damage. I'm not sure how this is possible. There ought to be a tradeoff. I mean if they are pure damage builds they can't have much mitigation too. So even though they hit you very hard, all of your attacks ought to do more damage than against a tanky build.

Unless there is a way to build for 7k WD and huge penetration but also have like 30k resists and 3k crit resist. If so I'd like to see some examples of such builds

Xargas13 · June 2020

Yeap, magcro here too, it has been fun before the patch, now I cannot kill OR survive. PvP is a main thing for me in any online game, if it will continue I will consider going back to the other MMO, where I had success and patches don't ruin things. The only thing is stopping me is that I really like this game, I like graphics, I like the lore, I like combat, but PvP in such a shape that it's just not worth it for me...

Goregrinder · June 2020

Theignson wrote: »

There is something here that I've often wondered too.

You can see super tanks , who take no damage but give no damage, you ignore them.

There are also glass cannon NB who hit very hard but who die immediately when you attack them.

But then there are some builds that do huge damage but your abilities hitting them do minimal damage. I'm not sure how this is possible. There ought to be a tradeoff. I mean if they are pure damage builds they can't have much mitigation too. So even though they hit you very hard, all of your attacks ought to do more damage than against a tanky build.

Unless there is a way to build for 7k WD and huge penetration but also have like 30k resists and 3k crit resist. If so I'd like to see some examples of such builds

What you are probably seeing is people who figured out a balance between damage and survivability, and learned how to effectively pilot that build. Player skill still matters, as well as that perfect class/gear/spec/stats spread/buff combo for a No-Cp or for CP etc. That's really the fun of theorycrafting in ESO, the hunt for that one build...the build to rule them all...for a few months then it doesn't work anymore.

Even with proc sets, good stat spread, the right burst combo, it still requires knowledge of how to actually use the thing in PVP, and to know it's strengths and weaknesses.If a player is effectively playing a build to all of it's strengths, you might never witness that build's weaknesses....that's more of a testament to that player playing well, rather than their gear or build carrying them.

That doesn't mean broken *** doesn't exist, but I highly doubt all of the players you see that do big boy damage but take little damage are running the same exact gear, race, traits, stats, etc. Which would mean the issue isn't the gear or specs they are running.

Usually when I run into someone or a group that just seems to counter everything I try, then it's likely they are just playing optimally, while I am not. AKA I got outplayed fair and square.

Ecfigies · June 2020

Theignson wrote: »

There is something here that I've often wondered too.

You can see super tanks , who take no damage but give no damage, you ignore them.

There are also glass cannon NB who hit very hard but who die immediately when you attack them.

But then there are some builds that do huge damage but your abilities hitting them do minimal damage. I'm not sure how this is possible. There ought to be a tradeoff. I mean if they are pure damage builds they can't have much mitigation too. So even though they hit you very hard, all of your attacks ought to do more damage than against a tanky build.

Unless there is a way to build for 7k WD and huge penetration but also have like 30k resists and 3k crit resist. If so I'd like to see some examples of such builds

Nord, New Moon frontbar / Fury, Truth, Clever Alchemist / Bloodpawn or Malubeth / Potentates backbar, heavy armor, lavas food.

Josira · December 2020

oh boy I forgot how to make new threads again time to necro my old one.
if anybody can remind my smoothbrain self how to do so I would love to post a thread asking for build help/the ins and outs of the current meta per class. been trying to make my own builds again only to get sent to brazil faster then ever before. and about to give up there.

Edit: Nevermind found it

ivramirez · December 2020

Josira wrote: »

Ok...I just..dont get it
Ever since the latest patch ive been dying to everything in pvp. with no chance of survival. 2 seconds,I die.
Especially gank builds
Now I consider gank builds part of the game. it can be a fun play style. not a play style I enjoy.
so this isnt going to be a nerf gank thread.
or whatever
just a rant
How
how the hell
is it when I spec into damage
that people who have specked into tankyness do more damage then me?
Is it because im trying a melee mag necro? was it a mistake to even attempt to use the melee spamamble and build around it?
I mean either way I have barely any damage.
then I go onto my glass cannon mag dk. now he always had issues surviving. but he could compensate with hea-oh wait. not anymore.
somehow people specked into tankyness do more damage then him.
am I missing something?
"Oh its a learn to play issue" Bugger off. im not a good player true. alright at best,mediocre at worse. not the worst player. I know how stats and skills in the game work and I try my best to synergise with them...and then theorycraft and spend too much gold into builds that look good on paper then dont work in practice at all
is it something to do with light armor? the healing nerf? the fact Magcro's are the second worst pvp class only slightly ahead of Mag Nightblades?
the fact this new vampirism skill line sucks(no pun intended) and has no magicka gap closer? the fact that im trying to make myself tankier with a sword and board and for the gapcloser that is just not working out because then I dont have stamina to break free?
did they buff damage on stamina characters somewhere?
did they nerf light armor?
I dont know.
Just so burnt out on this game. I repeat this damnable cycle every patch
ZOS makes a change somewhere
I think "Oh I can theory craft a build around something now"
I spent over a 100k gold that takes me a few weeks to farm in the first place for overly expensive gear being sold only by the top trade guilds that buy any version of it being sold for less so they can raise the prices
then
the build doesnt work
I either come across some unkillable 1vxer that even if I do my stratergy of ignoring them they just rush me down and kill me within 2 seconds then go back to jumping around like an ADHD child who has had too much caffiene
or I run into a group of 3-5 people and melt.
Oh I used to play battlegrounds with my boyfriend. that was fun. a lot of fun actually. we worked together as a two man team,and it was the most fun ive ever had in this game! we won some...lost a lot but it was fun!
then ZoS decided to nerf that fun for nonexistant 'premades'
oh sure
cause that sure solved the problems of having one team steamroll the other 2
suuuure did.
this game is a mess
I spent ages farming for max level scrying
then tried to farm imperial city for leads to the band of malacath
made the mistake of going above ground. and then getting ganked.
went back to sewers,as I found out in pts that you could get the lead I needed via sewer portals
get ganked right by alliance base
was with my boyfriend to
both of us seem to be deleted within a second
We have about 3k impen
but its like we have zero
and I dont even know why im farming for this stupid ring
for a build that wont work because its not in the meta?
for a sorc build focused on player based aoe's?
why am I even bothering anymore
a fun thing for me is when I theory craft and builds work
Like my glass cannon magic dk
well
did work. before the healing change.

anyways have fun with the wall of text. just needed to scream somewhere.

I feel you my friend. ZOS is doing their best to actually kick us from the game. PvP, balanced skill game? not in ESO.

It is clear there are absolutely no ZOS dev playing the pvp aspect of this game.

GrimTheReaper45 · December 2020

Have a similar sentiment.

Miss the old days when everything non meta wasnt garbage and when classes had some unique things to build around that might actually be viable. When you didnt have to spec so much into health or recovery or impen for a baseline usable character and what you spec'd into was areas you wanted more in. You wanted to play a spam happy build you spec'd into sustain, now your just forced to. You wanted to be tankier you spec'd into tankiness, now you just need to be tanky.

I really just miss like 2017 eso combat (premorrowind). It was just so much more fun to build and play back then

TheBonesXXX · December 2020

More examples of getting to much power from CP and Gear. You can still build minimal Input, maximum output.

GrimTheReaper45 · December 2020

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

More examples of getting to much power from CP and Gear. You can still build minimal Input, maximum output.

Power creep from gear has gotten worse. I think a lot of the problems though are from the balance by standards approach they have taken over the last few years. Everything's basically the same now because all the classes are now competing to be best at the same thing, rather than having there own way to do things that work. A lot of that they have standardized over the years is what gave classes the flexibility to stand up to the current meta.

Joy_Division · December 2020

Josira wrote: »

Ok...I just..dont get it
Ever since the latest patch ive been dying to everything in pvp. with no chance of survival. 2 seconds,I die.
Especially gank builds

That's what we're going to run since ZOS made Cyrodiil a Darwinian struggle where "allies" can't heal each other.

Now I consider gank builds part of the game. it can be a fun play style. not a play style I enjoy.
so this isnt going to be a nerf gank thread.
or whatever
just a rant
How
how the hell
is it when I spec into damage
that people who have specked into tankyness do more damage then me?

Because you are specing into damage. Mistake. Let proc sets do the damage for you (it doesn't care about your stats) and instead into tankyness. That 40K health Warden is going to murder 95% of all build that rely on traditional stats and class abilities

and
Is it because im trying a melee mag necro?
was it a mistake to even attempt to use the melee spamamble and build around it?

Yep. Worst spec in the game (especially since your using a spammable instead of procs)

I mean either way I have barely any damage.

Of course you don't to the 40K health Warden whose burst heal will also stun you (take that templars!)

then I go onto my glass cannon mag dk. now he always had issues surviving. but he could compensate with hea-oh wait. not anymore.
somehow people specked into tankyness do more damage then him.
am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something.. "Glass cannon" worked in 2015 maybe. Unless you are a nightblade bomb build, erase the idea of a glass cannon given the game revolves around generic buffs and gear sets now

"Oh its a learn to play issue" Bugger off. im not a good player true. alright at best,mediocre at worse. not the worst player. I know how stats and skills in the game work and I try my best to synergise with them...and then theorycraft and spend too much gold into builds that look good on paper then dont work in practice at all
is it something to do with light armor? the healing nerf? the fact Magcro's are the second worst pvp class only slightly ahead of Mag Nightblades?

It's not learn to play. Rather it's learn to adapt to ZOS's highly questionable changes that have undermined the traditional sort of builds you are trying in vain to play. As meh as mag NBs are, I'd rate them higher than a Magcro. At least they can bomb and have a chance of surviving when overmatched.

It's not so much light, medium, heavy. It's all about the 5th piece armor bonus playing the game for you while trying to stack as much health while still being able to sustain your resources.

the fact this new vampirism skill line sucks(no pun intended) and has no magicka gap closer? the fact that im trying to make myself tankier with a sword and board and for the gapcloser that is just not working out because then I dont have stamina to break free?

Yep, Vamp is not very competitive. Trying to melee on the worst and slowest class in the game (with no gap closer) relying on actual abilities is going to make for a lot of rant threads.

did they buff damage on stamina characters somewhere?

Not really. It's just easier to stack weapon damage and stam characters have access to an actual weapon skill that does high damage (Dizzy).

did they nerf light armor?
I dont know.

Not that I know of. But without a great 5 piece bonus, it's the worst of all three since all it does is increases ability damage when that spec is not competitive.

Just so burnt out on this game. I repeat this damnable cycle every patch

That's because ZOS cant stop enticing its players with OP gear for its DLC.

ZOS makes a change somewhere
I think "Oh I can theory craft a build around something now"
I spent over a 100k gold that takes me a few weeks to farm in the first place for overly expensive gear being sold only by the top trade guilds that buy any version of it being sold for less so they can raise the prices
then
the build doesnt work

pretty much with how often they make changes (and then change them back). Why else would I spend hours in Elden Hallow public dungeon that was originally designed for level 10 characters?

I either come across some unkillable 1vxer that even if I do my stratergy of ignoring them they just rush me down and kill me within 2 seconds then go back to jumping around like an ADHD child who has had too much caffiene

You must be mistaken. 1vXers only ever get chased and would never ever relentlessly pursue someone.

or I run into a group of 3-5 people and melt.

Well considering they can heal and buff themselves while you cant with any of the randoms you're around, you're even more SOL. Wasn't it thoughtful for ZOS to grant those players an advantageous ruleset?

Oh I used to play battlegrounds with my boyfriend. that was fun. a lot of fun actually. we worked together as a two man team,and it was the most fun ive ever had in this game! we won some...lost a lot but it was fun!
then ZoS decided to nerf that fun for nonexistant 'premades'
oh sure
cause that sure solved the problems of having one team steamroll the other 2
suuuure did.

I think BGs can que as group now. Don;t quote me though. But the same issues you describe above are going to exist in Bgs. Even more so since armor procs are more effective in no CP.

this game is a mess

No denying that.

I spent ages farming for max level scrying
then tried to farm imperial city for leads to the band of malacath
made the mistake of going above ground. and then getting ganked.

Yes that was annoying. I had to kill 19 bosses to get that lead.

went back to sewers,as I found out in pts that you could get the lead I needed via sewer portals
get ganked right by alliance base
was with my boyfriend to
both of us seem to be deleted within a second

IC is the ideal setting for gankers.

We have about 3k impen
but its like we have zero

If you're not a 40K health stamden, it doesn;t matter how much impen you wear.

and I dont even know why im farming for this stupid ring

Because it increases the armor procs that allow you not to invest in stats by 25% damage.

for a build that wont work because its not in the meta?

if you build is light armor rely on abilities, then, no, the ring isn't really worth it unless you are an elite sorcerer.

for a sorc build focused on player based aoe's?

Sorc IMHO is best played as single target.

why am I even bothering anymore

Because in spite of ZOS's changes that undermines the fantastic potential this game has, nothing else has come out yet that is a more fun alternative

a fun thing for me is when I theory craft and builds work[
Like my glass cannon magic dk
well
did work. before the healing change.

It's not so much the healing change (although that is annoying). Rather DK (and Templar) are based on mechanics that ZOS's changes have left way behind. In their mind Eclipse is on par with Shimmering Shield (lol) and breath of Life is the equivalent of Polar Wind (even more lol).

Edit: Oh, a necro thread. It's amazing how the same problems in this game persist patch after patch.

GrimTheReaper45 · December 2020

Joy_Division wrote: »

Josira wrote: »

Ok...I just..dont get it
Ever since the latest patch ive been dying to everything in pvp. with no chance of survival. 2 seconds,I die.
Especially gank builds

That's what we're going to run since ZOS made Cyrodiil a Darwinian struggle where "allies" can't heal each other.

Now I consider gank builds part of the game. it can be a fun play style. not a play style I enjoy.
so this isnt going to be a nerf gank thread.
or whatever
just a rant
How
how the hell
is it when I spec into damage
that people who have specked into tankyness do more damage then me?

Because you are specing into damage. Mistake. Let proc sets do the damage for you (it doesn't care about your stats) and instead into tankyness. That 40K health Warden is going to murder 95% of all build that rely on traditional stats and class abilities

and
Is it because im trying a melee mag necro?
was it a mistake to even attempt to use the melee spamamble and build around it?

Yep. Worst spec in the game (especially since your using a spammable instead of procs)

I mean either way I have barely any damage.

Of course you don't to the 40K health Warden whose burst heal will also stun you (take that templars!)

then I go onto my glass cannon mag dk. now he always had issues surviving. but he could compensate with hea-oh wait. not anymore.
somehow people specked into tankyness do more damage then him.
am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something.. "Glass cannon" worked in 2015 maybe. Unless you are a nightblade bomb build, erase the idea of a glass cannon given the game revolves around generic buffs and gear sets now

"Oh its a learn to play issue" Bugger off. im not a good player true. alright at best,mediocre at worse. not the worst player. I know how stats and skills in the game work and I try my best to synergise with them...and then theorycraft and spend too much gold into builds that look good on paper then dont work in practice at all
is it something to do with light armor? the healing nerf? the fact Magcro's are the second worst pvp class only slightly ahead of Mag Nightblades?

It's not learn to play. Rather it's learn to adapt to ZOS's highly questionable changes that have undermined the traditional sort of builds you are trying in vain to play. As meh as mag NBs are, I'd rate them higher than a Magcro. At least they can bomb and have a chance of surviving when overmatched.

It's not so much light, medium, heavy. It's all about the 5th piece armor bonus playing the game for you while trying to stack as much health while still being able to sustain your resources.

the fact this new vampirism skill line sucks(no pun intended) and has no magicka gap closer? the fact that im trying to make myself tankier with a sword and board and for the gapcloser that is just not working out because then I dont have stamina to break free?

Yep, Vamp is not very competitive. Trying to melee on the worst and slowest class in the game (with no gap closer) relying on actual abilities is going to make for a lot of rant threads.

did they buff damage on stamina characters somewhere?

Not really. It's just easier to stack weapon damage and stam characters have access to an actual weapon skill that does high damage (Dizzy).

did they nerf light armor?
I dont know.

Not that I know of. But without a great 5 piece bonus, it's the worst of all three since all it does is increases ability damage when that spec is not competitive.

Just so burnt out on this game. I repeat this damnable cycle every patch

That's because ZOS cant stop enticing its players with OP gear for its DLC.

ZOS makes a change somewhere
I think "Oh I can theory craft a build around something now"
I spent over a 100k gold that takes me a few weeks to farm in the first place for overly expensive gear being sold only by the top trade guilds that buy any version of it being sold for less so they can raise the prices
then
the build doesnt work

pretty much with how often they make changes (and then change them back). Why else would I spend hours in Elden Hallow public dungeon that was originally designed for level 10 characters?

I either come across some unkillable 1vxer that even if I do my stratergy of ignoring them they just rush me down and kill me within 2 seconds then go back to jumping around like an ADHD child who has had too much caffiene

You must be mistaken. 1vXers only ever get chased and would never ever relentlessly pursue someone.

or I run into a group of 3-5 people and melt.

Well considering they can heal and buff themselves while you cant with any of the randoms you're around, you're even more SOL. Wasn't it thoughtful for ZOS to grant those players an advantageous ruleset?

Oh I used to play battlegrounds with my boyfriend. that was fun. a lot of fun actually. we worked together as a two man team,and it was the most fun ive ever had in this game! we won some...lost a lot but it was fun!
then ZoS decided to nerf that fun for nonexistant 'premades'
oh sure
cause that sure solved the problems of having one team steamroll the other 2
suuuure did.

I think BGs can que as group now. Don;t quote me though. But the same issues you describe above are going to exist in Bgs. Even more so since armor procs are more effective in no CP.

this game is a mess

No denying that.

I spent ages farming for max level scrying
then tried to farm imperial city for leads to the band of malacath
made the mistake of going above ground. and then getting ganked.

Yes that was annoying. I had to kill 19 bosses to get that lead.

went back to sewers,as I found out in pts that you could get the lead I needed via sewer portals
get ganked right by alliance base
was with my boyfriend to
both of us seem to be deleted within a second

IC is the ideal setting for gankers.

We have about 3k impen
but its like we have zero

If you're not a 40K health stamden, it doesn;t matter how much impen you wear.

and I dont even know why im farming for this stupid ring

Because it increases the armor procs that allow you not to invest in stats by 25% damage.

for a build that wont work because its not in the meta?

if you build is light armor rely on abilities, then, no, the ring isn't really worth it unless you are an elite sorcerer.

for a sorc build focused on player based aoe's?

Sorc IMHO is best played as single target.

why am I even bothering anymore

Because in spite of ZOS's changes that undermines the fantastic potential this game has, nothing else has come out yet that is a more fun alternative

a fun thing for me is when I theory craft and builds work[
Like my glass cannon magic dk
well
did work. before the healing change.

It's not so much the healing change (although that is annoying). Rather DK (and Templar) are based on mechanics that ZOS's changes have left way behind. In their mind Eclipse is on par with Shimmering Shield (lol) and breath of Life is the equivalent of Polar Wind (even more lol).

Edit: Oh, a necro thread. It's amazing how the same problems in this game persist patch after patch.

I really wish zos would hire you. Seriously, criticism is hard to take and I doubt they like hearing what you have to say but you really to have an amazing understanding of what is wrong with this game. If zos isnt at least taking your feedback its a big loss.

Josira · December 2020

hehe yeah I necro;d my own thread because I forgot how to make new thread about asking for advice for mag necro's
then I figured it out very easily. then people started to reply a lot hehe...

But yeah...the glass cannon dk was working really well before the vampire patch. hell I even used clouding swarm on it to...scaryingly efficiency. really that was such an underated Ult in battlegrounds. shame it got taken out for....a bad melee skill line without a gapcloser.

anyways. Yeah. Also dont like Mmr system. Im not a good player. was just lucky a few times is all...please stop putting me with the 810 sweatlords with the build that will step out of your monitor and kite you around your own house only to pull off the mega double seizure special dizzying swing maneuverer of imminent death. please... for the love of all that is holy. have mercy on a medicore pvper who had a win streak once or twice..

Wolfenzero · December 2020

One common thing that I read in your post is that you're playing Magicka.

Honestly, given the difference between Stamina and Magicka in PvP it's no wonder that you're struggling more than you should.

With skills like Momentum: 20% dmg, regen, immunity to snares/slows, free coffes or monsters directly delivered to your house, because if a skill must have an insane value, let's go all in, or, Rally: 16k health over 4 seconds, 2.7k cost against the 4k health 5k cost of the mag class "counterpart" (and I'm a Templar, wanna-be healer class), I wonder who was in charge of balancing things.

Switching from Magicka to Stamina made surviving in 1vsX scenarios ten times easier, I can simply kite meanwhile my HoTs take care of the rest, find an opening and go: fear (cannot be blocked or dodged) -> dawn (big damage, big dot and even stun which is not needed in this example, talking about over-value skills again) -> poke -> finisher and if it doesn't work, simply reset and try again (fun gameplay there).

fred4 · December 2020

I find that your playstyle and your builds evolve together. It's like that for me and it's the same for other people. It's really hard to give advice, unless someone already has a similar approach to the game. As regards to how someone can be tanky, yet still do a lot of damage, here is some anecdotal evidence. I play in CP.

Case 1: My magden is a class I rarely play. I used to have Dampen and Inner Light on the front bar years ago and went back to that. It didn't work. I then realised that I don't defend that much when under attack, but that there are moments when I'm under huge pressure where I switch to my back bar and partially block with 1H+S. It occurred to me that putting Dampen on the back bar would work much better and voila. Partially blocking, line-of-sighting and alternating Dampen with Living Trellis at the same time made me a lot tankier. 3 players of another faction were really going at me in IC. They were on the high-health, lower damage side themselves, but seemed coordinated. They could not kill me. My build? Eternal Vigor, Necropotence, Wild Hunt, Domihaus, light armor. Not a super high damage build, but a damage build nonetheless and not a tank.

Case 2: I duelled a friend - a good player - and he kept beating my magplar. I tried all sorts of armor sets, both heavy and light. What won out for survivability? Not the heavy armor. Not the tanky setup. It was Eternal Vigor (again) plus Amber Plasm. The comment from my friend: It's like a completely different character and you're putting more pressure on me. This is where playstyle really factors into the equation. I also play stamina classes, thus was used to dodge rolling. The combination of those two sets - light armor again - allowed me to play the character more like a stamina one and has proven the most defensively sound for me both in duels and in open world. The heals are better, possibly due to more frequent crits. I should add that I also started appreciating the value of Living Dark, which is not just a purely defensive skill, but the snare helps with attack.

I can't really help with necro, as I don't play the class, but if you're not using Mist Form or at the very least Race Against Time, you're doing something wrong in my opinion. I play light armor magicka characters in melee range who are not usually vampires. The Wild Hunt ring, Race Against Time and some stamina sustain are IMO essential to keep up with medium armor builds in this patch. To get stamina sustain I usually use the class' stamina sustain skill, if it has one, e.g. Restoring Focus on templar and the Bull Netch on magden. This has the advantage of not cutting off stam regen totally while blocking or sprinting. Yes, you read that right: On the templar I use Restoring Focus AND Eternal Vigor AND Amber Plasm. This is what transforms the class defensively for me and my playstyle. Damage takes a hit, but damage would also take a hit, if you built tanky in terms of resistances.

In summary, I tend to build for stamina sustain and I use a 1H + Shield back bar. I use a Defensive back bar weapon, but light armor and quite low resistances. In my case defense comes from healing skills - ideally ones that heal you or offset damage while you're attacking - as well as from the use of 1H + Shield, from blocking, doge rolling, line-of-sighting and from speed (Wild Hunt).

fred4 · December 2020

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Josira wrote: »

Ok...I just..dont get it
Ever since the latest patch ive been dying to everything in pvp. with no chance of survival. 2 seconds,I die.
Especially gank builds

That's what we're going to run since ZOS made Cyrodiil a Darwinian struggle where "allies" can't heal each other.

Now I consider gank builds part of the game. it can be a fun play style. not a play style I enjoy.
so this isnt going to be a nerf gank thread.
or whatever
just a rant
How
how the hell
is it when I spec into damage
that people who have specked into tankyness do more damage then me?

Because you are specing into damage. Mistake. Let proc sets do the damage for you (it doesn't care about your stats) and instead into tankyness. That 40K health Warden is going to murder 95% of all build that rely on traditional stats and class abilities

and
Is it because im trying a melee mag necro?
was it a mistake to even attempt to use the melee spamamble and build around it?

Yep. Worst spec in the game (especially since your using a spammable instead of procs)

I mean either way I have barely any damage.

Of course you don't to the 40K health Warden whose burst heal will also stun you (take that templars!)

then I go onto my glass cannon mag dk. now he always had issues surviving. but he could compensate with hea-oh wait. not anymore.
somehow people specked into tankyness do more damage then him.
am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something.. "Glass cannon" worked in 2015 maybe. Unless you are a nightblade bomb build, erase the idea of a glass cannon given the game revolves around generic buffs and gear sets now

"Oh its a learn to play issue" Bugger off. im not a good player true. alright at best,mediocre at worse. not the worst player. I know how stats and skills in the game work and I try my best to synergise with them...and then theorycraft and spend too much gold into builds that look good on paper then dont work in practice at all
is it something to do with light armor? the healing nerf? the fact Magcro's are the second worst pvp class only slightly ahead of Mag Nightblades?

It's not learn to play. Rather it's learn to adapt to ZOS's highly questionable changes that have undermined the traditional sort of builds you are trying in vain to play. As meh as mag NBs are, I'd rate them higher than a Magcro. At least they can bomb and have a chance of surviving when overmatched.

It's not so much light, medium, heavy. It's all about the 5th piece armor bonus playing the game for you while trying to stack as much health while still being able to sustain your resources.

the fact this new vampirism skill line sucks(no pun intended) and has no magicka gap closer? the fact that im trying to make myself tankier with a sword and board and for the gapcloser that is just not working out because then I dont have stamina to break free?

Yep, Vamp is not very competitive. Trying to melee on the worst and slowest class in the game (with no gap closer) relying on actual abilities is going to make for a lot of rant threads.

did they buff damage on stamina characters somewhere?

Not really. It's just easier to stack weapon damage and stam characters have access to an actual weapon skill that does high damage (Dizzy).

did they nerf light armor?
I dont know.

Not that I know of. But without a great 5 piece bonus, it's the worst of all three since all it does is increases ability damage when that spec is not competitive.

Just so burnt out on this game. I repeat this damnable cycle every patch

That's because ZOS cant stop enticing its players with OP gear for its DLC.

ZOS makes a change somewhere
I think "Oh I can theory craft a build around something now"
I spent over a 100k gold that takes me a few weeks to farm in the first place for overly expensive gear being sold only by the top trade guilds that buy any version of it being sold for less so they can raise the prices
then
the build doesnt work

pretty much with how often they make changes (and then change them back). Why else would I spend hours in Elden Hallow public dungeon that was originally designed for level 10 characters?

I either come across some unkillable 1vxer that even if I do my stratergy of ignoring them they just rush me down and kill me within 2 seconds then go back to jumping around like an ADHD child who has had too much caffiene

You must be mistaken. 1vXers only ever get chased and would never ever relentlessly pursue someone.

or I run into a group of 3-5 people and melt.

Well considering they can heal and buff themselves while you cant with any of the randoms you're around, you're even more SOL. Wasn't it thoughtful for ZOS to grant those players an advantageous ruleset?

Oh I used to play battlegrounds with my boyfriend. that was fun. a lot of fun actually. we worked together as a two man team,and it was the most fun ive ever had in this game! we won some...lost a lot but it was fun!
then ZoS decided to nerf that fun for nonexistant 'premades'
oh sure
cause that sure solved the problems of having one team steamroll the other 2
suuuure did.

I think BGs can que as group now. Don;t quote me though. But the same issues you describe above are going to exist in Bgs. Even more so since armor procs are more effective in no CP.

this game is a mess

No denying that.

I spent ages farming for max level scrying
then tried to farm imperial city for leads to the band of malacath
made the mistake of going above ground. and then getting ganked.

Yes that was annoying. I had to kill 19 bosses to get that lead.

went back to sewers,as I found out in pts that you could get the lead I needed via sewer portals
get ganked right by alliance base
was with my boyfriend to
both of us seem to be deleted within a second

IC is the ideal setting for gankers.

We have about 3k impen
but its like we have zero

If you're not a 40K health stamden, it doesn;t matter how much impen you wear.

and I dont even know why im farming for this stupid ring

Because it increases the armor procs that allow you not to invest in stats by 25% damage.

for a build that wont work because its not in the meta?

if you build is light armor rely on abilities, then, no, the ring isn't really worth it unless you are an elite sorcerer.

for a sorc build focused on player based aoe's?

Sorc IMHO is best played as single target.

why am I even bothering anymore

Because in spite of ZOS's changes that undermines the fantastic potential this game has, nothing else has come out yet that is a more fun alternative

a fun thing for me is when I theory craft and builds work[
Like my glass cannon magic dk
well
did work. before the healing change.

It's not so much the healing change (although that is annoying). Rather DK (and Templar) are based on mechanics that ZOS's changes have left way behind. In their mind Eclipse is on par with Shimmering Shield (lol) and breath of Life is the equivalent of Polar Wind (even more lol).

Edit: Oh, a necro thread. It's amazing how the same problems in this game persist patch after patch.

I really wish zos would hire you. Seriously, criticism is hard to take and I doubt they like hearing what you have to say but you really to have an amazing understanding of what is wrong with this game. If zos isnt at least taking your feedback its a big loss.

I read Joy Division's post after you said that and I can only shake my head. His comments are merely very bitter and I can only assume that he is playing more no CP than CP. As a CP player, and I do have to stress that I am an almost pure CP player, but nonetheless coming from that environment much of what he says - such as about the efficacy of procs - is hyperbole. For example my madgen is a stat-based build with 28K buffed health in Cyro, in CP. It's not my greatest build (yet), but it works in that environment. I just out-tanked 3 of those 32K to 40K health characters - at least one of them a warden - who were beating on me for at least 1 minute before help arrived. Like I said, I run Eternal Vigor + Necropotence + Wild Hunt + Domihaus in light armor. Those builds do NOT do a whole lot of damage in CP and, also, Arctic Blast is a really bad CC, because it is not controllable. If you ask me what a good CC is, I'd go with something that can be used tactically and is strong, such as Fossilize, or something that does significant damage, e.g. Dizzying, Surprise Attack and Incap.

My stam DK is probably my best all round character. Not the best to play solo, nor does it have the insane fun factor of my stamsorc, but my best dueller and, well, Leap is deadly in open world. You want a good leap, you build stat-based.

As to healing outside a group - it's not completely dead. Nature's Embrace works, for example, and I think Living Trellis may work as well. I am reluctantly with ZOS on this one. The healing changes were made for performance. As a programmer I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt that (a) this is a unique game with a large open world player population and (b) the performance problems would not be solved solely by a hardware upgrade.

Waffennacht · December 2020

Warden is a super freaky good class right now.

Massive passive healing, CCs, Delayed Burst, PBAoE with long duration, passive % damage modifiers (these are by far the strongest types in the game) and mobility

Procs or not dont even really matter with warden

Sorcs, NBs, and DKs are in a very solid place as well.

Stam necro is good, but just because of a few abilities, more to do with the strength of weapon abilities and can utilize certain sets well.

Stamplar is a real struggle along with mag necro.

Its very easy for me to dominate with warden and Sorc (I dont really use my DK or NB that much) however you can definitely feel the pain when you switch to classes with gaps.

wheem_ESO · December 2020

fred4 wrote: »

I read Joy Division's post after you said that and I can only shake my head. His comments are merely very bitter and I can only assume that he is playing more no CP than CP. As a CP player, and I do have to stress that I am an almost pure CP player, but nonetheless coming from that environment much of what he says - such as about the efficacy of procs - is hyperbole. For example my madgen is a stat-based build with 28K buffed health in Cyro, in CP. It's not my greatest build (yet), but it works in that environment. I just out-tanked 3 of those 32K to 40K health characters - at least one of them a warden - who were beating on me for at least 1 minute before help arrived. Like I said, I run Eternal Vigor + Necropotence + Wild Hunt + Domihaus in light armor. Those builds do NOT do a whole lot of damage in CP and, also, Arctic Blast is a really bad CC, because it is not controllable. If you ask me what a good CC is, I'd go with something that can be used tactically and is strong, such as Fossilize, or something that does significant damage, e.g. Dizzying, Surprise Attack and Incap.

My stam DK is probably my best all round character. Not the best to play solo, nor does it have the insane fun factor of my stamsorc, but my best dueller and, well, Leap is deadly in open world. You want a good leap, you build stat-based.

As to healing outside a group - it's not completely dead. Nature's Embrace works, for example, and I think Living Trellis may work as well. I am reluctantly with ZOS on this one. The healing changes were made for performance. As a programmer I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt that (a) this is a unique game with a large open world player population and (b) the performance problems would not be solved solely by a hardware upgrade.

CP-enabled PvP is very different from no-CP, and not everyone that has >= 40k hp is using proc sets for damage. I've seen people in PvE builds or "troll tank" builds running that sort of health, and they tend to have little-to-no damage. A properly built Stamina Warden running with 35k+ hp in no-CP Battlegrounds is basically a god compared to many "normal" builds. It's literally one of the most overpowered things I've ever seen in ESO's PvP, and I've been around for a long time.

For the past 3 and a half years or so, Zenimax has needed to find a way to nerf Stamina Warden in PvP without either ruining it in PvE, or making Magicka Warden useless. Fundamentally, I think the main problem lies in the generic stamina toolkit; when you stack that with what's available to the Warden class' stam-morphs, you end up with something that's just way too good. The magicka toolkit and itemization are weak enough that Magicka Warden was actually quite bad for a very long time, despite having the same class toolkit as its Stamina counterpart. 'Course, Magicka Warden is strong in the current meta, mostly because it can be a worse version of Stamina Warden with HP stacking and the health-based heal...but if you're doing that you might as well just change your sets and bars and be a "Stamina" Warden.

Regardless, you simply cannot judge BG/no-CP balance based on what happens in CP-enabled PvP.

Muzza45 · December 2020

Josira wrote: »

raistin87 wrote: »

Are you playing no-CP? Do you have the ring?

I dont have the ring yet. its for a sorcerer I have yet to level up
have almost all the gear for it. its by no means even..well I dont think the build will be as useful now. I didnt think of how I plan to get people locked down into my player based aoe's with this sorc build

I was on my Stamblade (Darloc Brae is awesome) last night in IC, and when I saw groups of other factions hit a boss, I'd sneak up, fire a couple of snipes and hide. Those few hits on the boss enabled me to pick up my lead in about 2 bosses. You couldn't see me for dust when I got the lead, I was outta there sharpish!

fred4 · December 2020

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Regardless, you simply cannot judge BG/no-CP balance based on what happens in CP-enabled PvP.

Then my question is, what did we set out to judge here? It's as valid to talk about CP as it is about no CP and I've only been surmising Joy Division may have been talking about no CP. Without him specifying that, his assertions are basically worthless in my view.

I've mostly been ignoring no CP and, of course, as a seasoned player I still find success when I'm doing the occasional low MMR BG. It's not like you get overpowered by a completely different meta as soon as you set foot in there.

I agree with what you're saying about the strength of the stamina toolkit and how that tends to make stamina variants stronger than their magicka counterparts. At least in the case of warden, necro and NB. Not for sorc, nor is it clear cut for templar and DK as far as I can see.

That said, when I run into these players in CP they're definitely not all PvE tanks nor troll builds. These are people who clearly know how to play and are expecting to burst you. They have 35K health, I have 26K on my stam DK and it's like "You're expecting to kill me with that?". Nope. I can't kill them either in a fair fight, but what else is new. If anything, I was struggling more against such players when Fury and heavy armor was the meta, but I've probably gotten better since then.