Battleground compromise

PeterUnlustig · May 2020

For everyone that missed whats going on:
The combat team stated, that they are not planing to reintroduce group qued Battlegrounds.
"At this time, there are no immediate plans to reintroduce group queuing for PvP Battlegrounds in ESO. We are focusing on game performance improvements, and monitoring PvP Battlegrounds activity and feedback. If we do consider reintroducing group queueing for PvP Battlegrounds in the future, we’ll let everyone know."

Which to me sounds fair, since its technically hard to get a good matching system working while solo que is still possible aswell (the problem with the missing 4th person to fill a 3man team)

But what many people are asking for, me included, isn`t a full group que. Instead we just want to play with a friend again. The to me logical compromise between pure solo que and full Premade grouping, is to allow one duo-que team into every Battleground team, which will be counterbalanced by the MMR of the team they have to face (if the others are all solo player)

Not everyone will be 100% satisfied with this solution, but i think both solo-quers and group-quers can live with this. After all a compromise is about finding a solution for all sides.

LADYKiLLER · May 2020

Honestly, I'm not sure why they don't introduce a group BG queue, and then a separated solo BG queue. Maybe not enough players?

For my part, my friends and I haven't touched battlegrounds since the change to solo queueing because playing together was the main reason we did it. Even if we lost, we had fun cos we were hanging out as a group of buds. It's unfortunate that we're not going to get that back. The change seems quite bizarre in the context of an MMO, where playing with other people is literally the point.

Even if you make new friends in solo queued battlegrounds, you can't continue to play with them so it's not even a new networking opportunity..

Battlegrounds do not have a ladder or anything associated with winning or losing, except for the desire to continue playing battlegrounds. I'd be really interested in seeing the net change to battleground participation. Is it significantly better?

Schokolade · May 2020

They are lazy af, and they just don't care.
They choose an approximative method: just remove all premade in an Online game

Anyone can like this change, but it was bad done; and we can all agree that it was aproximative.
But we all know: It just works.

Your solution is nice; probably there are even more ideas (like boosting btg population by giving some leaderboard achievment/prize for both solo and premade - and why not, different prize for different queue).
2 Queues, one for premade of 4 (mandatory) and one for solo (I like more your idea, this is just an example, but surely better then the current method)

Note: don't give us the Cyro thing. Cyro and Btg are completely different.

Daemons_Bane · May 2020

I honestly prefer it to be solo.. That is the most fair solution imo

Thevampirenight · May 2020

Where did Rich say this? Was it discord? Just wondering.

mairwen85 · May 2020

Thevampirenight wrote: »

Where did Rich say this? Was it discord? Just wondering.

Yeah, I don't recall seeing anything on the official forums from Rich either. Sarah Hecker made a statement:

ZOS_SarahHecker wrote: »

Hey all,

At this time, there are no immediate plans to reintroduce group queuing for PvP Battlegrounds in ESO. We are focusing on game performance improvements, and monitoring PvP Battlegrounds activity and feedback. If we do consider reintroducing group queueing for PvP Battlegrounds in the future, we’ll let everyone know.

PeterUnlustig · May 2020

LADYKiLLER wrote: »

Honestly, I'm not sure why they don't introduce a group BG queue, and then a separated solo BG queue. Maybe not enough players?

As i already said its technically and practically almost impossible to let solo and group que run side by side. If you que with 3 people where is the 4th team memeber coming from? Will you face 4 man teams then.

LADYKiLLER · May 2020

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

LADYKiLLER wrote: »

Honestly, I'm not sure why they don't introduce a group BG queue, and then a separated solo BG queue. Maybe not enough players?

As i already said its technically and practically almost impossible to let solo and group que run side by side. If you que with 3 people where is the 4th team memeber coming from? Will you face 4 man teams then.

You'd just only allow for 2 & 4 man group queue.

PeterUnlustig · May 2020

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

LADYKiLLER wrote: »

Honestly, I'm not sure why they don't introduce a group BG queue, and then a separated solo BG queue. Maybe not enough players?

As i already said its technically and practically almost impossible to let solo and group que run side by side. If you que with 3 people where is the 4th team memeber coming from? Will you face 4 man teams then.

It was in the forums under a Battlegrounds discussion:
"Hey all,

At this time, there are no immediate plans to reintroduce group queuing for PvP Battlegrounds in ESO. We are focusing on game performance improvements, and monitoring PvP Battlegrounds activity and feedback. If we do consider reintroducing group queueing for PvP Battlegrounds in the future, we’ll let everyone know"

redgreensunset · May 2020

OP, source?

PeterUnlustig · May 2020

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/526638/any-news-about-this-battleground-experiment/p4
SarahHecker said that, but its not her is decission. This was a decission the entire combat team decided on

Stanx · May 2020

Way better solo it just used to be 4 dudes steam-rolling everyone and know is actually fun. Seems a lot of the p*ssed off folks are probably those going around destroying random groups and winning by 450 points.

It wasn't fun and this is better.

Wouldn't object to separate queues but imagine there's prob not enough players to split and keep the queue function working (or as close as it can get).

gatekeeper13 · May 2020

They should add two options for Battlegrounds queue.

One which will be solo only, no pre-made groups allowed and one which will allow pre-made groups.

PeterUnlustig · May 2020

Stanx wrote: »

Way better solo it just used to be 4 dudes steam-rolling everyone and know is actually fun. Seems a lot of the p*ssed off folks are probably those going around destroying random groups and winning by 450 points.

It wasn't fun and this is better.

Wouldn't object to separate queues but imagine there's prob not enough players to split and keep the queue function working (or as close as it can get).

Did you even read anything?
No one here asked for full premades to be brought back, why are people like always bringing this topic into discussions like this?

Would it be really that hard for you to fight against one duo-team of 2 players with lower MMR then you are. If so its a l2p issue.

Stanx · May 2020

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Stanx wrote: »

Way better solo it just used to be 4 dudes steam-rolling everyone and know is actually fun. Seems a lot of the p*ssed off folks are probably those going around destroying random groups and winning by 450 points.

It wasn't fun and this is better.

Wouldn't object to separate queues but imagine there's prob not enough players to split and keep the queue function working (or as close as it can get).

Did you even read anything?
No one here asked for full premades to be brought back, why are people like always bringing this topic into discussions like this?

Would it be really that hard for you to fight against one duo-team of 2 players with lower MMR then you are. If so its a l2p issue.

Relax.

I'm saying the people kicking up a fuss are the ones that used to roll around in 4-man premades. I also said solo is better. I also said I wouldn't object to a seperate queue.

Didn't say it was hard for me, either.

Did you even read?

Qbiken · May 2020

Stanx wrote: »

Way better solo it just used to be 4 dudes steam-rolling everyone and know is actually fun. Seems a lot of the p*ssed off folks are probably those going around destroying random groups and winning by 450 points.

It wasn't fun and this is better.

Wouldn't object to separate queues but imagine there's prob not enough players to split and keep the queue function working (or as close as it can get).

There were too many premades out there

Doesn't go in line with

Not enough players to support a separate queue

So which one is it?

Stanx · May 2020

Qbiken wrote: »

Stanx wrote: »

Way better solo it just used to be 4 dudes steam-rolling everyone and know is actually fun. Seems a lot of the p*ssed off folks are probably those going around destroying random groups and winning by 450 points.

It wasn't fun and this is better.

Wouldn't object to separate queues but imagine there's prob not enough players to split and keep the queue function working (or as close as it can get).

There were too many premades out there

Doesn't go in line with

Not enough players to support a separate queue

So which one is it?

Ummm I don't build the LFG system I'm sorry how would I know? We're talking about the player experience not how the tool is put together.

PeterUnlustig · May 2020

Stanx wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Stanx wrote: »

Way better solo it just used to be 4 dudes steam-rolling everyone and know is actually fun. Seems a lot of the p*ssed off folks are probably those going around destroying random groups and winning by 450 points.

It wasn't fun and this is better.

Wouldn't object to separate queues but imagine there's prob not enough players to split and keep the queue function working (or as close as it can get).

Did you even read anything?
No one here asked for full premades to be brought back, why are people like always bringing this topic into discussions like this?

Would it be really that hard for you to fight against one duo-team of 2 players with lower MMR then you are. If so its a l2p issue.

I also said solo is better. I also said I wouldn't object to a seperate queue.

How can you say solo is better then solo+duo, when we never had a point where this was even tested. All im asking for is to give it a try and if it turns out to be catastrophically they can always go back to solo only.

It may be better for you to solo que, but nearly every veteran pvp player hates the new bg system, since you always end up in extremly bad matchmakings, often you have to carry your entire team of feeders. I just want at least 1 competent teammate and i just want to fight against 2 competent enemy team, instead of chaotically mixed groups.

mairwen85 · May 2020

Stanx wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Stanx wrote: »

Way better solo it just used to be 4 dudes steam-rolling everyone and know is actually fun. Seems a lot of the p*ssed off folks are probably those going around destroying random groups and winning by 450 points.

It wasn't fun and this is better.

Wouldn't object to separate queues but imagine there's prob not enough players to split and keep the queue function working (or as close as it can get).

There were too many premades out there

Doesn't go in line with

Not enough players to support a separate queue

So which one is it?

Ummm I don't build the LFG system I'm sorry how would I know? We're talking about the player experience not how the tool is put together.

No, your logic is incorrect. The two statements are direct contradictions to one another and cannot both be true. It doesn't matter if you build the tool or not. Logic is universal.

If battlegrounds were previously dominated with pre-mades, i.e. too many of them, then the case for a group queue is met.
If group queues aren't possible because there aren't enough players to satisfy the requirement, then pre-mades cannot ever have been too many.

Personally I'd prefer a nice quick queue with my mate(s) and not the protracted wait times of solo queues and ending up with incomplete teams.

It's almost like there aren't enough people queuing solo to satisfy the solo queue requirements.

GeorgeYung · May 2020

Stanx wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Relax.

I'm saying the people kicking up a fuss are the ones that used to roll around in 4-man premades. I also said solo is better. I also said I wouldn't object to a seperate queue.

Didn't say it was hard for me, either.

Did you even read?

Really ? this is fuss now?

Currently Cyrodil is unplayable and the BG system was cropped from a core feature. It's not good at all right now ... it just a 15min daily quest. I always played SOLO or with a friend of mine and I bloody miss the ability to play together with someone.

Create a 2v2v2 arena, no obvious issues there. Just they have to put the bloody work in it.

It's not fuss, just people want some light at the end of the tunnel when it comes to small scale PvP, as it's getting pretty dark in here

Stanx · May 2020

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Stanx wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Stanx wrote: »

Way better solo it just used to be 4 dudes steam-rolling everyone and know is actually fun. Seems a lot of the p*ssed off folks are probably those going around destroying random groups and winning by 450 points.

It wasn't fun and this is better.

Wouldn't object to separate queues but imagine there's prob not enough players to split and keep the queue function working (or as close as it can get).

Did you even read anything?
No one here asked for full premades to be brought back, why are people like always bringing this topic into discussions like this?

Would it be really that hard for you to fight against one duo-team of 2 players with lower MMR then you are. If so its a l2p issue.

I also said solo is better. I also said I wouldn't object to a seperate queue.

How can you say solo is better then solo+duo, when we never had a point where this was even tested. All im asking for is to give it a try and if it turns out to be catastrophically they can always go back to solo only.

It may be better for you to solo que, but nearly every veteran pvp player hates the new bg system, since you always end up in extremly bad matchmakings, often you have to carry your entire team of feeders. I just want at least 1 competent teammate and i just want to fight against 2 competent enemy team, instead of chaotically mixed groups.

Let me simplify my point as I'm obviously not writing it clearly enough (happy to admit that's my fault).

I don't object to trying 2-man queueing content.

I think the current situation is an improvement on the previous.

Stanx · May 2020

mairwen85 wrote: »

Stanx wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

Stanx wrote: »

Way better solo it just used to be 4 dudes steam-rolling everyone and know is actually fun. Seems a lot of the p*ssed off folks are probably those going around destroying random groups and winning by 450 points.

It wasn't fun and this is better.

Wouldn't object to separate queues but imagine there's prob not enough players to split and keep the queue function working (or as close as it can get).

There were too many premades out there

Doesn't go in line with

Not enough players to support a separate queue

So which one is it?

Ummm I don't build the LFG system I'm sorry how would I know? We're talking about the player experience not how the tool is put together.

No, your logic is incorrect. The two statements are direct contradictions to one another and cannot both be true. It doesn't matter if you build the tool or not. Logic is universal.

If battlegrounds were previously dominated with pre-mades, i.e. too many of them, then the case for a group queue is met.
If group queues aren't possible because there aren't enough players to satisfy the requirement, then pre-mades cannot ever have been too many.

Personally I'd prefer a nice quick queue with my mate(s) and not the protracted wait times of solo queues and ending up with incomplete teams.

It's almost like there aren't enough people queuing solo to satisfy the solo queue requirements.

The two statements that were quoted that I never said?

I never said there were too many premades at any point. I said they killed BGs.

I know he quoted "not enough players..." but if you read the sentence you will see it's been taken out of context - I said I "imagine" there may not be enough players.

Eifleber · May 2020

Yea although I don't do BGs I dont see why you can't have both:

random BG
team BG

It's not rocket science.

I mean: GuildWars already had it in 2005.
-

PeterUnlustig · May 2020

Eifleber wrote: »

Yea although I don't do BGs I dont see why you can't have both:
random BG

team BG

It's not rocket science.

I mean: GuildWars already had it in 2005.
-

It actually is rocket science. ZOS completly killed of the competitive battleground community with the solo que system.
I doubt that you can manage to get 3v3v3 and 4v4v4 ques outside out primetime.

And if you just seperate solo and group que strictly, how will you fill up a 3 man team if solo players can`t group que.
If you allow solo players to group que as well, how will they coordinate with their teammates, you cant just write mid fight.
As much as i liked premadeVpremadeVpremade fights i dont see them coming back soon. But i can imagine duo ques being easily implementable

MurderMostFoul · May 2020

Pretty much this:

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I highly doubt that there would consistently be 12 people (3 groups of 4) queuing in the group queue to enable reasonable wait times. And even if there are 3 full groups queuing regularly, it would get boring fighting the same group game after game. Even then, one or two of those groups would likely be significantly worse than the other(s). I would expect the less powerful group(s) to stop queuing due to being beaten over and over.

Unless I'm wildly underestimating the number of people who want to just do 4 man Premade v 4 man Premade v 4 man Premade, a truly functional group-only queue seems like wishful thinking.

ZOS could create a whole new incentive structure to draw more players to the Group Queue in the hopes of getting it to function. Or they could allow duos and trios in the group queue and draw from the solo queue to fill in the gaps in some complicated fashion. But in reality, we can't hope for any change that requires significant time and work from ZOS.

Simply allowing solos and duos, instead of solos only, seems like the easiest way to appease the folks who are rightfully upset that they can't BG with friends. It can't be that hard to increase the permissible group size by one. ZOS wouldn't even have to balance the duo by modifying how matchmaking factors in the duo's MMR. The team with a duo may have an advantage, but so what? It won't be insurmountable.

Adding duos to the solo queue is an easy change that lets folks play with a friend, while still preventing unstoppable premades from hindering other players' enjoyment. Adding a group-only queue isn't a feasible solution. Change my mind.

From:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/528835/a-separate-group-queue-for-bgs-would-not-work#latest

Alomar · May 2020

Nope, no, not happening, never...shouldn’t need to make any compromises for group content/features in an mmo. Especially when it was advertised as such in the Morrowind chapter. Just remember, even ZOS admitted this change wasn’t done to appeal to solo players...just a bandaid fix cause they could never figure out how to fix mmr issues with groups. Enjoy your *** product.

PeterUnlustig · May 2020

Alomar wrote: »

Nope, no, not happening, never...shouldn’t need to make any compromises for group content/features in an mmo. Especially when it was advertised as such in the Morrowind chapter. Just remember, even ZOS admitted this change wasn’t done to appeal to solo players...just a bandaid fix cause they could never figure out how to fix mmr issues with groups. Enjoy your *** product.

Sadly the loudest community are all those daily random Bg PVErs and Questers. Alot of PvPers already given up on the concept of challenging battleground matches with team coordination. But all i really want is to play with the last pvp friends that remain active ingame, even if its one at a time.

People like you that keep screaming about "muh premade group" are basically the same people that are scream "those damned premade groups" If we cant find a middleground, we will never see group que again.

Alomar · May 2020

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

Alomar wrote: »

Nope, no, not happening, never...shouldn’t need to make any compromises for group content/features in an mmo. Especially when it was advertised as such in the Morrowind chapter. Just remember, even ZOS admitted this change wasn’t done to appeal to solo players...just a bandaid fix cause they could never figure out how to fix mmr issues with groups. Enjoy your *** product.

Sadly the loudest community are all those daily random Bg PVErs and Questers. Alot of PvPers already given up on the concept of challenging battleground matches with team coordination. But all i really want is to play with the last pvp friends that remain active ingame, even if its one at a time.

People like you that keep screaming about "muh premade group" are basically the same people that are scream "those damned premade groups" If we cant find a middleground, we will never see group que again.

Ummm...what? Very little sense in that..and no I never complain about group content having groups in the mmo's I play.

Jeremy · May 2020

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

For everyone that missed whats going on:
The combat team stated, that they are not planing to reintroduce group qued Battlegrounds.
"At this time, there are no immediate plans to reintroduce group queuing for PvP Battlegrounds in ESO. We are focusing on game performance improvements, and monitoring PvP Battlegrounds activity and feedback. If we do consider reintroducing group queueing for PvP Battlegrounds in the future, we’ll let everyone know."

Which to me sounds fair, since its technically hard to get a good matching system working while solo que is still possible aswell (the problem with the missing 4th person to fill a 3man team)

But what many people are asking for, me included, isn`t a full group que. Instead we just want to play with a friend again. The to me logical compromise between pure solo que and full Premade grouping, is to allow one duo-que team into every Battleground team, which will be counterbalanced by the MMR of the team they have to face (if the others are all solo player)

Not everyone will be 100% satisfied with this solution, but i think both solo-quers and group-quers can live with this. After all a compromise is about finding a solution for all sides.

As things are in battlegrounds right now group queues would decimate even more than they did prior. The damage bursts are just ludicrous. Any coordinated attack is going to cut through the opposition like a hot knife through butter.

If I don't see some improvements soon I may give up on PvP on this game. I don't care for this new direction in the least.

PeterUnlustig · May 2020

Jeremy wrote: »

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

For everyone that missed whats going on:
The combat team stated, that they are not planing to reintroduce group qued Battlegrounds.
"At this time, there are no immediate plans to reintroduce group queuing for PvP Battlegrounds in ESO. We are focusing on game performance improvements, and monitoring PvP Battlegrounds activity and feedback. If we do consider reintroducing group queueing for PvP Battlegrounds in the future, we’ll let everyone know."

Which to me sounds fair, since its technically hard to get a good matching system working while solo que is still possible aswell (the problem with the missing 4th person to fill a 3man team)

But what many people are asking for, me included, isn`t a full group que. Instead we just want to play with a friend again. The to me logical compromise between pure solo que and full Premade grouping, is to allow one duo-que team into every Battleground team, which will be counterbalanced by the MMR of the team they have to face (if the others are all solo player)

Not everyone will be 100% satisfied with this solution, but i think both solo-quers and group-quers can live with this. After all a compromise is about finding a solution for all sides.

As things are in battlegrounds right now group queues would decimate even more than they did prior. The damage bursts are just ludicrous. Any coordinated attack is going to cut through the opposition like a hot knife through butter.

If I don't see some improvements soon I may give up on PvP on this game. I don't care for this new direction in the least.

Well it was already a leaning more towards kill and respawn gameplay. I would say my average teammate had around 10 deaths.

I think if you at least have one duo per team you can hook up with them try to get some teamplay together. Teamplay will be alot more important now that healing is nerfed.

Berek_Bloodfang · May 2020

PeterUnlustig wrote: »

For everyone that missed whats going on:
The combat team stated, that they are not planing to reintroduce group qued Battlegrounds.
"At this time, there are no immediate plans to reintroduce group queuing for PvP Battlegrounds in ESO. We are focusing on game performance improvements, and monitoring PvP Battlegrounds activity and feedback. If we do consider reintroducing group queueing for PvP Battlegrounds in the future, we’ll let everyone know."

Which to me sounds fair, since its technically hard to get a good matching system working while solo que is still possible aswell (the problem with the missing 4th person to fill a 3man team)

But what many people are asking for, me included, isn`t a full group que. Instead we just want to play with a friend again. The to me logical compromise between pure solo que and full Premade grouping, is to allow one duo-que team into every Battleground team, which will be counterbalanced by the MMR of the team they have to face (if the others are all solo player)

Not everyone will be 100% satisfied with this solution, but i think both solo-quers and group-quers can live with this. After all a compromise is about finding a solution for all sides.

I can't understand why they didn't go this route in the first place, the only real complaint was "full premades" being too difficult to play against, two people can't carry an entire team and completely abuse solo players. How hard is it to realistically find a second person to queue with? Like come on...