Morgha_Kul wrote: »

I have to say, I'd like a basic, PvE version of Cyrodiil, if only because I would like to be able to go through that part of the world on foot without the contrivance of a menu.

I mean, suppose my character is in Davon's Watch. I get an Alchemy Survey in Wrothgar or Skywatch or something. My preference would be to NOT fast travel and to actually WALK all the way there. The JOURNEY is the adventure, as I might have encounters along the way. However, there's no way to go into Cyrodiil by passing through a gate, I have to join a queue. Then, once I'm there, I can't pass through a gate on the other side to go into Wrothgar or wherever I was going on the other side of the continent. It would even be nice if this PvE version of Cyrodiil wasn't so war torn, representing Cyrodiil at peace (more or less). You could even add another faction there for Imperial characters, allowing them to join the Legions or something. For me, it's all about immersion, and the current setup isn't immersive at all. Indeed, it's quite disruptive.

So, yes. I'm all for a PvE version of Cyrodiil.

It's possible to get anywhere without using wayshrines.

For example from Davon's Watch to Wrothgar, you can take the Summerwind at the Davon's Watch docks to Daggerfall and then proceed on foot to Stormhaven where you can use the Friendship Gate to enter Wrothgar.

The question I have is why PvP players would object to this? PvE players aren't going into Cyrodiil as it is, so the PvPers are not losing anything by there being a non-PvP version of the zone.

I'm a PvE player and I like Cyrodill the way it is, than you very much.

Why PvE players always thinks, that world rotates only for them? No. Go and fight for these Dolmens and Skyshards like any other players did. I have never see threads, where PvP players asks for empty dungeons without mobs and bosses, only with loot chests.

I don't PvP. There are many reasons why I don't.

I'm just not that good at it. There's two reasons for that. First, I'm not very practiced or skilful. Second, my character is not constructed to be minmaxed with specific skills and specific equipment, all used in exactly the same specific order every time they're used. He's constructed on the basis of his personality and history. He's a CHARACTER, not a "Toon." That means that no matter HOW skilled I am, I'm not going to be able to compete against even a single enemy.

Of course, you NEVER see a one on one fight. EVERY time I've been in a PvP situation, I'm outnumbered 30-1. That's no fun for anyone, because there's no way for me to fight back, and there's no challenge for the army in killing one guy.
Of course, these are the same people who say they want to PvP because the PvE content is too easy. They want the challenge of fighting human players... and then go in giant gank squads and kill people who can't defend themselves. Boy, how challenging. Then there's the invisible oneshotters. You know the type. Lots of games have this type of character, and it's NEVER a good thing. They suddenly appear from invisibility of some sort, and immediately kill you with one attack. Of course, a similar thing is the guy with the endless controls... stuns, knocks, etc. that prevent the opposing player from being able to fight back. Again, what a fantastic challenge that is, right? Either outnumber your foe so badly they can't fight back, or stealth oneshot them so they can't fight back, or permanently stun them so they can't fight back.
This is ALWAYS how PvP goes in pretty well every game I've played with PvP... so the argument that you're seeking a challenge holds NO water.

Then there's the attitude. There's no sportsmanship, no respect... just derision, antagonism, insults and arguments. PvP seems to bring out the worst in people, and often for no reason at all.
For example, the other night I decided to go to the Imperial City. I had spent months accumulating Tel Var stones (mainly from daily rewards), and thought I'd go spend them. I had around 22k stones. When I got there, I found that most everything I might want was in the range of 200k stones, so there was no way I could buy anything.
I thought I'd go out into the city to see how easily stones could be had. The answer was not easily. Rewards for killing the daedra were minimal. I found an Arena, however, and thought I'd see if there was an event there that might award more stones. I killed the first foe (a giant clannfear and his unending adds), but decided I was in over my head. It took nearly an hour to kill him (with no reward for so doing), and I didn't want to waste any more time. As I was leaving the Arena, however, a gigantic World Boss level Daedroth spawned right on top of me. He was doing tons of damage, and between his nonstop stuns, roots, holds, and the endless adds with THEIR nonstop stuns, roots and the like, there was simply no way for me to fight back or run away. The recap indicated the damage I'd taken, but also that being defeated cost me HALF the Tel Var stones I'd spent months accumulating.
So, I was ticked off, and commented about it in chat. I had thought I'd get some commiseration, "Ya, it sucks," or "Ya, it's a bit of a harsh penalty," or even some advice "oh, you'll get them back pretty quick if you do (insert activity)." Instead I got "Poor baby," and "cry more noob," and other such idiocy... and this was from players from MY FACTION. They're supposedly on MY SIDE. This is how my ALLIES behave, how can I expect my enemies to act? Even more, there was no reason for this antagonism and these insults. I'd said nothing, done nothing to antagonize anyone there, yet they felt the need to be derisive and insulting.

So, I don't PvP, and I've no interest in doing it.

Now, PvP players are saying there shouldn't be any PvE version of the zone. My question is again, WHY NOT?

I've seen no argument that I find in any way valid.

idk wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Dont go to cyro, problem solved. If the achievements are in cyro, they are by default not pve achievements.

I'm not arguing the general point here - if you go to Cyro, you might have to deal with pvp, that's a risk you need to take. But how exactly are the delve or quest achievements there related to pvp? Because they're really not, except for the chance to run into other people who probably want to kill you, these achievements have nothing to do with pvp whatsoever, they're clearly pve-related only.

How are they related to PvP? Easy. Zos clearly chose to put them into a PvP zone. That means Zos specifically decided that if players wanted the related achievements and titles player would have to risk PvP. That also means Zos is saying if you do not want to risk facing PvP then you will not get those achievements. It really is that simple.

Uh, yeah. Which is literally what I wrote in my post that you quoted. And just to say it again, I have those achievements, so I know what I'm talking about. And that argument makes absolutely no sense at all. Just because I have to go through a pvp zone and, thus, can run into someone who wants to kill me, that does not make the achievements in and of themselves pvp-achievements! Unless they said "kill another player while you go and clear all the delves" or "help capture a town/keep/whatever while you do the town quests" (which are pve quests), the achievements are not pvp. It's really as simple as that.

Agenericname wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Dont go to cyro, problem solved. If the achievements are in cyro, they are by default not pve achievements.

I'm not arguing the general point here - if you go to Cyro, you might have to deal with pvp, that's a risk you need to take. But how exactly are the delve or quest achievements there related to pvp? Because they're really not, except for the chance to run into other people who probably want to kill you, these achievements have nothing to do with pvp whatsoever, they're clearly pve-related only.

The buffs that come from killing the delve bosses in Cyrodiil is a PvP buff.

Yes, obviously, since it's a pvp zone. But how does that make it a pvp-achievement? The quest ones are even more obvious, they don't relate to pvp at all! If I go into an almost completely unpopulated campaign and I'm lucky and don't meet any other player while doing these achievements, so that I don't get into even one pvp fight - then I obtained these achievements without ever having to pvp at all. So, please explain this to me because I don't understand the logic: How does just being set in a pvp environment when no actual pvp is required to meet the criteria to get the achievements make them pvp achievements?

Van_Winkle wrote: »

Why PvE players always thinks, that world rotates only for them? No. Go and fight for these Dolmens and Skyshards like any other players did. I have never see threads, where PvP players asks for empty dungeons without mobs and bosses, only with loot chests.

In all the threads about this I've read and participated in, I have seen nothing about pve players wanting empty dungeons without mobs and bosses and only loot chests. I have seen threads where pve players want normal dungeons with all the pve traps, mobs, and bosses in place, but without the oh so honorable looking for a fair fight pvp players who wait until the pver has dealt with the traps, mobs, and killed the bosses so their resources are low before they attack.

There may be pvp players who actually do want fair fights. In the limited times I've been in Cyrodiil and IC to use the crafting stations I have yet to meet any, but there may be a few out there. The one time in Cyrodiil the pvper waited 6 separate times to attack my crafter until after she'd been killing daedra. I guess they finally got bored after the 6th time, because they let her get to the crafting station finally.

January1171 wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Dont go to cyro, problem solved. If the achievements are in cyro, they are by default not pve achievements.

I'm not arguing the general point here - if you go to Cyro, you might have to deal with pvp, that's a risk you need to take. But how exactly are the delve or quest achievements there related to pvp? Because they're really not, except for the chance to run into other people who probably want to kill you, these achievements have nothing to do with pvp whatsoever, they're clearly pve-related only.

The buffs that come from killing the delve bosses in Cyrodiil is a PvP buff.

Yes, obviously, since it's a pvp zone. But how does that make it a pvp-achievement? The quest ones are even more obvious, they don't relate to pvp at all! If I go into an almost completely unpopulated campaign and I'm lucky and don't meet any other player while doing these achievements, so that I don't get into even one pvp fight - then I obtained these achievements without ever having to pvp at all. So, please explain this to me because I don't understand the logic: How does just being set in a pvp environment when no actual pvp is required to meet the criteria to get the achievements make them pvp achievements?

Because you can't just tune out of the environment while you complete them. You have to be on the lookout for other players. You have to be aware of who is holding gates/keeps/etc. Whether you can run straight by a keep or have to take the long way round. There were some quests in a town held by the opposing faction- I had to sneak through to avoid being seen by the guards. One time I had started quests in the town while it was held by my faction, but a player came through and took it over, and then there was pushback from my faction and I had to either participate or avoid it. There were points that I was literally sneaking around into the building with the quest giver while pvp was happening 10 feet in front of me. There is also additional risk because if you die, you could potentially have to ride all the way across cyro again to get to the same point.

Well, I can obviously just speak from my own experience here, and I don't know how populated the campaigns are on other platforms/servers. I play on PS4 EU, and the campaign I went to (and I'm really not sure at all which one it was, since otherwise I never ever go to Cyro, so sorry about that) was basically completely dead. There was literally almost no one. It took me three or four sessions to get all the delves, dolmens and quests done, and through all that time I saw maybe 5 players somewhere in the distance, met one friendly and got killed twice by players from other factions. That's it. That's really not much of a risk at all, except for, yes, you have to play the horse simulator again and get back to wherever you were before (or maybe somewhere else where no one might be waiting for you, which is what I did).

And concerning the guards - they're enemy npc's, ergo pve. You can just go and kill them no problem, as long as you don't take the flag, which might alert others to your presence. No need for sneaking at all. Yes, they respawn, but then you just kill them again and have time to do more quests. Pretty simple.

But again, I don't know how populated the campaigns are on other platforms. Maybe I was just lucky.

Agenericname wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

CassandraGemini wrote: »

TheFM wrote: »

Dont go to cyro, problem solved. If the achievements are in cyro, they are by default not pve achievements.

I'm not arguing the general point here - if you go to Cyro, you might have to deal with pvp, that's a risk you need to take. But how exactly are the delve or quest achievements there related to pvp? Because they're really not, except for the chance to run into other people who probably want to kill you, these achievements have nothing to do with pvp whatsoever, they're clearly pve-related only.

The buffs that come from killing the delve bosses in Cyrodiil is a PvP buff.

Yes, obviously, since it's a pvp zone. But how does that make it a pvp-achievement? The quest ones are even more obvious, they don't relate to pvp at all! If I go into an almost completely unpopulated campaign and I'm lucky and don't meet any other player while doing these achievements, so that I don't get into even one pvp fight - then I obtained these achievements without ever having to pvp at all. So, please explain this to me because I don't understand the logic: How does just being set in a pvp environment when no actual pvp is required to meet the criteria to get the achievements make them pvp achievements?

I was simply answering the question about how the delves related to pvp. The buff is how. It's there to attract pvpers.

As for the rest, the quests are really only related to pvp because they're in that zone. I agree with you on that, however, the fact that they're in a pvp zone is significant. What makes it all pvp is the risk taken to accomplish anything inside of a pvp zone. That risk doesn't exist in a pve environment and whether or not you met another player, you still assumed that risk when you went there.

You're not required to fight in a pvp zone. You are required to take that risk though.

And I'm totally okay with that - taking the risk, I mean. I was just wondering why people insist on these achievements being pvp, when to me, the way I see it, they're not. But I guess that's just a minor difference of opinion in the end, I agree that Cyro is fine the way it is and doesn't need to be changed or to be made into an extra version or whatever to cater to pve-players. I would take it, if ZOS decided to do it, to finally get those pesky skyshards and IC done, but if they don't that's completely fine by me.

Juzz wrote: »

And btw I’m a real compound bow hunter, huntin’ worldwide and prefer to track the prey, not just sittin and waitin’ - it’s not challenging at all 😊

Lol. Assuming there's any truth to this at all, it's probably more like "pays to go on safari and sit in an air-conditioned jeep while an actual hunter kills the animal, and then gets out safely to take a pathetic selfie with a dead elephant."

DT, Jr., is that you?

Juzz wrote: »

amapola76 wrote: »

Juzz wrote: »

And btw I’m a real compound bow hunter, huntin’ worldwide and prefer to track the prey, not just sittin and waitin’ - it’s not challenging at all 😊

Lol. Assuming there's any truth to this at all, it's probably more like "pays to go on safari and sit in an air-conditioned jeep while an actual hunter kills the animal, and then gets out safely to take a pathetic selfie with a dead elephant."

DT, Jr., is that you?

The truth is that i’m that very hunter, who takes some Man wannabes to the wilderness - that’s the difference. And from what I’ve seen, as ‘ve been said before - it’s in nature of beings.

Also admitting ‘bout previous greenie judgement that these «creatures» aren’t so helpless and innocent, and if not me makin’ the target a prey, then i’m going to become a target myself - that’s a challengin’ FairPlay and the reason for usin’ bow instead of boomstick. And also the best natural adrenaline sport, if this term’s acceptable for such a way of activity

"Greenie"? I'm former military, best natural adrenaline I've found is fighting an opponent equally able to defend themselves. Does your prey use a ranged weapon capable of killing you? No, you have the advantage and you know it. Fairplay my arse.

idk wrote: »

.

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

idk wrote: »

You do not have to go into Cyrodiil. That is a choice.

Zos clearly and specifically chose to place PvE content into Cyrodiil. By design it is clear Zos intends for OP to risk dealing with PvP if they want to complete the PvE achievements that come with the quests in Cyrodiil. As such if you want the rewards then deal with it. Otherwise move on to the next zone.

But ZOS flat out refuse to make it feasible for players to switch between PVE and PVP builds, so PVE players are always automatically at a massive disadvantage in PVP areas (and vice versa). Unless and until ZOS implement a locker room nobody is going to be happy about this or the balancing problems that ZOS's arrogance inflicts upon everybody. It's obvious why ZOS want to force players to experience both major modes but the way they've done it is fundamentally broken and we have no realistic hope of them ever admitting and fixing their mistake. So if having PVE-only instancing or whatever is the work around then so be it.

Interesting choice of words.

Zos does make changing between PvE and PvP builds very possible and it is not to inconvenient since we can easily change the specific morphs we want to change. Further, I have raided with a number of players who constantly go from PvP to raiding with top trial teams on their server.

Even more to the point I have completed all the Cyrodiil quests and all the dungeons on three characters and have obtained the all the sky on even more. When doing that I did not bother to change my build and was able to do just fine.

So back to the point. Zos specifically chose to place those dungeons, PvE quests, and sky shards, not to mentioned related titles behind a PvP wall. Zos is literally saying if you want them then you will have to risk PvP regardless of whatever reasons you find challenging about that. That message is pretty clear.

When ZOS allow players to switch between PVE and PVP builds with one click get back to me. Right now you're just blowing smoke up my rear end. ZOS resolutely refuse to allow players to feasibly change between PVE and PVP builds, which is involves far more than simply armour sets or a few morphs. Try changing your CP constellations every time you want to switch modes, for starters. But yes, that they put PVE content in PVP areas whilst automatically putting PVE players at a massive disadvantage is a very clear message, of pure contempt.

Sevn wrote: »

Juzz wrote: »

amapola76 wrote: »

Juzz wrote: »

And btw I’m a real compound bow hunter, huntin’ worldwide and prefer to track the prey, not just sittin and waitin’ - it’s not challenging at all 😊

Lol. Assuming there's any truth to this at all, it's probably more like "pays to go on safari and sit in an air-conditioned jeep while an actual hunter kills the animal, and then gets out safely to take a pathetic selfie with a dead elephant."

DT, Jr., is that you?

The truth is that i’m that very hunter, who takes some Man wannabes to the wilderness - that’s the difference. And from what I’ve seen, as ‘ve been said before - it’s in nature of beings.

Also admitting ‘bout previous greenie judgement that these «creatures» aren’t so helpless and innocent, and if not me makin’ the target a prey, then i’m going to become a target myself - that’s a challengin’ FairPlay and the reason for usin’ bow instead of boomstick. And also the best natural adrenaline sport, if this term’s acceptable for such a way of activity

"Greenie"? I'm former military, best natural adrenaline I've found is fighting an opponent equally able to defend themselves. Does your prey use a ranged weapon capable of killing you? No, you have the advantage and you know it. Fairplay my arse.

Former military ye say? Former Royal Marines Commando marksman OP «Enduring Freedom» veteran at yer service. 😊