Echoing Vigor vs Mutagen

Iskiab · July 2019

So everyone’s been focused on comparing vigor to rapid regen, I think people have missed the big disparity of mag vs stam - echoing vigor vs mutagen.

Both have the same tooltip amounts, both heal over 10 seconds. The big difference is:

Echoing vigor - Heals 6 people
Mutagen - Heals 1 person, bonus effect that if it ticks while someone’s under 20% health they get burst healed.

The issue I see is echoing vigor is a million times better then mutagen.

As a suggestion how about these changes:

Echoing vigor - hits 4 total players
Mutagen - hits two total players.

Perhaps what would be best would be to remove the health condition burst heal entirely and make mutagen hit 6 players as well... but that’s boring to have two abilities be the same. I just want them closer in strength.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · July 2019

that burst heal will save someone when the hot from echoing wont. i mean, i see what you are getting at, i just don't see your comparisons are 1 to 1, echoing is more akin to the ground aoes that all but sorcs have and grand healing. a long lasting aoe hot, now i know the CoP will cover that for stam too but that is added to the layering of hot for stam healers, like the class ground hots and grand healing will be for mag healers.

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

Just make Mutagen hit 4-6 people and healers might actually use it.

Insco851 · July 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Just make Mutagen hit 4-6 people and healers might actually use it.

Lower mutagen range to 15m- same as echoing.

Jodynn · July 2019

Mutagen requires a resto staff and even on a mag I'm more likely to use vigor because I won't use a resto staff

Iskiab · July 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

that burst heal will save someone when the hot from echoing wont. i mean, i see what you are getting at, i just don't see your comparisons are 1 to 1, echoing is more akin to the ground aoes that all but sorcs have and grand healing. a long lasting aoe hot, now i know the CoP will cover that for stam too but that is added to the layering of hot for stam healers, like the class ground hots and grand healing will be for mag healers.

Echoing vigor isn’t a ground hot. A better comparison for those abilities is circle of preservation.

15m range isn’t much of an impediment really, I mean if mag healers got a mag version of echoing vigor I don’t think there’d be a mag class that wouldn’t use it.

The tooltips and scaling of mutagen and echoing vigor are too close to not be comparable, it’s pretty obvious they’re meant to be comparable abilities but they obviously aren’t. That’s why the other vigor morph and rapid regen are so similar.

I mean, if ZoS is standardizing abilities and whatnot, comparing these two abilities stand out as the most obvious imbalance in the game. Number or access to healing abilities is irrelevant because of bar space crunch, what’s most important is how strong each ability is.

Zatox · July 2019

slot vigor instead of mutagen

Iskiab · July 2019

Zatox wrote: »

slot vigor instead of mutagen

Yea that’s an option. It has a pretty cheap cost in stam, costs less then a dodge roll. I’d still prefer a mag version since I’m a Breton and not argonian.

Plus, if even mag healers are slotting echoing vigor isn’t that an indictment of an ability being OP?

Cinbri · July 2019

Just shouldnt change Regeneration and Vigor at all. It was 2 less problematic skills in their skillines.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · July 2019

Echoing vigor isn’t a ground hot. A better comparison for those abilities is circle of preservation.

i am aware of that, that is what i said this for- ", now i know the CoP will cover that for stam too but that is added to the layering of hot for stam healers, like the class ground hots and grand healing will be for mag healers."

stam/stam healers have 2 aoe hots. CoP and echoing. there are no other aoe hots for stam. so a stam healer would use/going to use them in the same way as mag based healers are stacking their class ground aoe and grand healing. i am also aware that cleansing ritual scales with stam now but that is just for stamplars.

The tooltips and scaling of mutagen and echoing vigor are too close to not be comparable, it’s pretty obvious they’re meant to be comparable abilities but they obviously aren’t. That’s why the other vigor morph and rapid regen are so similar.

one is a single target hot with a burst function, the other is a true aoe hot with no burst function, not really comparable.

I mean, if ZoS is standardizing abilities and whatnot, comparing these two abilities stand out as the most obvious imbalance in the game. Number or access to healing abilities is irrelevant because of bar space crunch, what’s most important is how strong each ability is.

they are for different things as far as i can tell. like i said, i can see what you are going for but they are not 100% comparable.

wheem_ESO · July 2019

Vigor is also unaffected by Silence, while Mutagen/Rapid Regen get shut down.

Jodynn · July 2019

I mean, comparing the two is kind of silly, stam gets vigor while mag gets shields... so... yeah.

Iskiab · July 2019

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

I mean, comparing the two is kind of silly, stam gets vigor while mag gets shields... so... yeah.

There are more mag classes then sorc in the game. Or do you mean harness magicka compared to shuffle?

All these arguments sound disingenuous like they’re trying to distract from the issue and getting into a dodge roll vs harness issue.

Rapid Regen was changed at the same time as vigor, both increased dramatically. One morph of each is directly comparable, if you look at the other morph one’s 6x better then the other.

I’m sure most players are already planning to use an obviously overtuned ability in their build already so don’t want it changed so late into PTS, but there’s still an obviously OP ability for group healing. How can someone deny that?

Seraphayel · July 2019

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

I mean, comparing the two is kind of silly, stam gets vigor while mag gets shields... so... yeah.

Yeah when I get an AoE Shield for less than 3k Magicka that absorbs the amount that Echoing Vigor heals we can talk. Oh that’s not in game? Guess why.

Echoing Vigor is way too potent. Plus it’s incredibly cheap and has a huge range. It’s even better than Grand Healing now after the change. I really consider slotting it even as Magicka just because it’s so good and due to the cheap costs it might be even worth it.

Mutagen hitting only one target for that cost is a joke. It should hit 2 targets plus the caster. Then it would be fine.

Insco851 · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

I mean, comparing the two is kind of silly, stam gets vigor while mag gets shields... so... yeah.

Yeah when I get an AoE Shield for less than 3k Magicka that absorbs the amount that Echoing Vigor heals we can talk. Oh that’s not in game? Guess why.

Echoing Vigor is way too potent. Plus it’s incredibly cheap and has a huge range. It’s even better than Grand Healing now after the change. I really consider slotting it even as Magicka just because it’s so good and due to the cheap costs it might be even worth it.

Mutagen hitting only one target for that cost is a joke. It should hit 2 targets plus the caster. Then it would be fine.

Just make mutagen just like vigor. Aoe heal. 6 targets. 15 meter radius. The animation can look more like pulsar than these silly beams.

That’s what the devs want anyways right? Everything to be the same? Just do it already. Everyone gets fear, everyone gets vigor.

Aznarb · July 2019

Insco851 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

I mean, comparing the two is kind of silly, stam gets vigor while mag gets shields... so... yeah.

Yeah when I get an AoE Shield for less than 3k Magicka that absorbs the amount that Echoing Vigor heals we can talk. Oh that’s not in game? Guess why.

Echoing Vigor is way too potent. Plus it’s incredibly cheap and has a huge range. It’s even better than Grand Healing now after the change. I really consider slotting it even as Magicka just because it’s so good and due to the cheap costs it might be even worth it.

Mutagen hitting only one target for that cost is a joke. It should hit 2 targets plus the caster. Then it would be fine.

Just make mutagen just like vigor. Aoe heal. 6 targets. 15 meter radius. The animation can look more like pulsar than these silly beams.

That’s what the devs want anyways right? Everything to be the same? Just do it already. Everyone gets fear, everyone gets vigor.

It will never be like vigor.
Mutagen is link to a weapon skill line, Vigor is not.
Only that is already a huge difference.
The 2 Stam heal are insanely strong and do not require anything to use them.
THIS is the real problem.

Iskiab · July 2019

Aznarb wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

I mean, comparing the two is kind of silly, stam gets vigor while mag gets shields... so... yeah.

Yeah when I get an AoE Shield for less than 3k Magicka that absorbs the amount that Echoing Vigor heals we can talk. Oh that’s not in game? Guess why.

Echoing Vigor is way too potent. Plus it’s incredibly cheap and has a huge range. It’s even better than Grand Healing now after the change. I really consider slotting it even as Magicka just because it’s so good and due to the cheap costs it might be even worth it.

Mutagen hitting only one target for that cost is a joke. It should hit 2 targets plus the caster. Then it would be fine.

Just make mutagen just like vigor. Aoe heal. 6 targets. 15 meter radius. The animation can look more like pulsar than these silly beams.

That’s what the devs want anyways right? Everything to be the same? Just do it already. Everyone gets fear, everyone gets vigor.

It will never be like vigor.
Mutagen is link to a weapon skill line, Vigor is not.
Only that is already a huge difference.
The 2 Stam heal are insanely strong and do not require anything to use them.
THIS is the real problem.

I don’t think they’ll ever make it so rapid regen is self only because at heart it’s a healer skill.

For pvp needing to use a resto I think is a non-issue. Players without enough self healing are free AP, the devs are just leading people in the right direction despite some people wanting to play weird non effective specs.

It’s the reason healers are so effective - people can but don’t heal themselves enough.

Seraphayel · July 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

For pvp needing to use a resto I think is a non-issue. Players without enough self healing are free AP, the devs are just leading people in the right direction despite some people wanting to play weird non effective specs.

In this case SnB with parts Heavy Armor plus Vigor seems to work better than an entire weapon just dedicated to healing which should do this job better overall. Yet the former option is outperforming the latter.

Iskiab · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

For pvp needing to use a resto I think is a non-issue. Players without enough self healing are free AP, the devs are just leading people in the right direction despite some people wanting to play weird non effective specs.

In this case SnB with parts Heavy Armor plus Vigor seems to work better than an entire weapon just dedicated to healing which should do this job better overall. Yet the former option is outperforming the latter.

Yea for stam yea. With damage up stam need a better self heal, the self heal vigor I get.

It’s the stronger group heal morph that’s the inbalancing healing in the game I have an issue with.

TheNightflame · July 2019

sticky aoe hots are my favourite. aka echoing vigor

josh.lackey_ESO · July 2019

brandoncoffmannub18_ESO wrote: »

I mean, comparing the two is kind of silly, stam gets vigor while mag gets shields... so... yeah.

stam gets vigor and block and dodge -- both much more effective than shields ... so... yeah

susmitds · July 2019

Issue with making Mutagen a Echoing Vigor clone is it kill stamina healing, outside very niche situations like Silence healing.

MaxJrFTW · July 2019

They're not supposed to be same. There's no reason to compare them. Stop trying to homogenize ESO, this is exactly what killed WoW.

Rygonix · July 2019

susmitds wrote: »

Issue with making Mutagen a Echoing Vigor clone is it kill stamina healing, outside very niche situations like Silence healing.

I was unaware that having to heal through negates or incap silences were 'very niche situations'. When fighting against ball groups it's anything but.

brandonv516 · July 2019

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

They're not supposed to be same. There's no reason to compare them. Stop trying to homogenize ESO, this is exactly what killed WoW.

They are already going in this direction. People are just embracing it.

Iskiab · July 2019

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

They're not supposed to be same. There's no reason to compare them. Stop trying to homogenize ESO, this is exactly what killed WoW.

Yea, I agree with you, but I didn’t play world of wankers for long.

Don’t clone them, that’s a bad idea, but make them different but but both similar strength like rapid regen and the other vigor morph.

Variety plus equality to help mag healing a bit. I’m all ready to stam heal next patch and don’t want it nerfed or the same ability as mag, just want to feel effective as a mag healer too.

I mean echoing vigor was already a good ability. Doubling the duration and keeping the same hps is a big change.

Austinseph1 · July 2019

Considering vigor can be slotted anywhere but mutagen is locked behind a resto staff takes its use away from anybody expecting to stay competitive with dps. But this is probably more from the PvE side.

Hotdog_23 · July 2019

With the changes currently suggested for next patch Vigor will be great and Mutagen will be only fair at best. Personally I will be dropping mutagen off my bars as the cost is to high and to random on who gets it. They really ruined Mutagen in my opinion.

ProzTh3Almighty · July 2019

Its not vigor vs anything or Mutagen vs anything. Magicka can use shields sure but thats not the point. Stamina heals are all either ties to weapon skill lines, a single skill in the warden tree, scaling hots that everyone can usebut cost magicka or or ....vigor. Not Honor the Dead or Bubble or Coagulating Blood or Burning Embers or Cauterize or Matriarch or Resist Flesh, or Intensive Mender, or Restoring Tether, or or or or or or or or or or Rapis Regen or Mutagen or combat prayer or healing springs or or or or or or. If you want to make all skills the same then give me stam shields and all the heals cost highest resource an cool beans.

Derra · July 2019

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

that burst heal will save someone when the hot from echoing wont. i mean, i see what you are getting at, i just don't see your comparisons are 1 to 1, echoing is more akin to the ground aoes that all but sorcs have and grand healing. a long lasting aoe hot, now i know the CoP will cover that for stam too but that is added to the layering of hot for stam healers, like the class ground hots and grand healing will be for mag healers.

The burstheal won´t save anyone because of how it works on pts.

It only can procc every 2s - when the ability ticks it´s healing.
But then also it will only procc when the heal tick does not bring you above 20% hp. Which is virtually impossible with the buffed healing.
If you´re at 5% hp and the ability crit hots you to 21% hp you won´t get the burstheal.

ProzTh3Almighty · July 2019

Derra wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

that burst heal will save someone when the hot from echoing wont. i mean, i see what you are getting at, i just don't see your comparisons are 1 to 1, echoing is more akin to the ground aoes that all but sorcs have and grand healing. a long lasting aoe hot, now i know the CoP will cover that for stam too but that is added to the layering of hot for stam healers, like the class ground hots and grand healing will be for mag healers.

The burstheal won´t save anyone because of how it works on pts.

It only can procc every 2s - when the ability ticks it´s healing.
But then also it will only procc when the heal tick does not bring you above 20% hp. Which is virtually impossible with the buffed healing.
If you´re at 5% hp and the ability crit hots you to 21% hp you won´t get the burstheal.

If you have 24k health an your....nevermind forgot what i was gonna say