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Why are they nerfing dungeons?
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MikaHR✭✭✭✭✭Thats because they are afraid if they say its their first time they will be insta kicked from the gruop.4 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »profundidob16_ESO wrote: »profundidob16_ESO wrote: »When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)
When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content
That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.
It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.
Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.
Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.
One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.
TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content
for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.
Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.
Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.
They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.
If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P
You do not need to read a guide. If you die 3 times to something then you know that that is an issue you need to look at and figure out how to do it. I've never read a guide for any 4 man content in this game excluding vbrp where I was too derpy to figure out how to deal with bug bomb.
Those attros in brf turn red and suddenly everyone dies. How many wipes till you realize that they need to be killed. Tunnel vision is bad. Pay attention and no guide is ever needed.
Right. Now please go tell that to the 90% of pug population that keeps failing at this...
Thing is....Nobody stops and takes 20 seconds to explain mechanics to perhaps someone that hasn’t run it before. Novel concept I know.
99.99% either start pointing fingers, kick or like a child, leave in a huff.
99.99% of the PUG population won't even bother to inform the team they haven't the slightest clue what's going on. They'd rather sit on the floor dead for all but 10 seconds of the fight rather than admit to ignorance.
So I must be one of the 0.01% ? At least I've got that going for me.
Every single dungeon I enter, whether I've done it before or not, I say the same thing every time.
1. I appreciate a heads up before any funky encounters. I haven't done this dungeon in a while and don't want to mess up. Any tips are more than welcome.
99.9% of the time I get crickets.
3 -
MaleAmazon✭✭✭✭✭
✭So I must be one of the 0.01% ? At least I've got that going for me.
Every single dungeon I enter, whether I've done it before or not, I say the same thing every time.
1. I appreciate a heads up before any funky encounters. I haven't done this dungeon in a while and don't want to mess up. Any tips are more than welcome.
99.9% of the time I get crickets.
Must be way annoying
I have the opposite experience: when I get into a hard vet dungeon or some normal DLC like MHK, I say that I want to know if anyone is new, since then I need to explain mechanics. Despite this, frequently people won´t say they are new, or will only say so after being asked repeatedly why they don´t know the tactics. Maybe they are afraid to get kicked, but.. meh. I have the feeling some people just want a clear and are fine to let others do the work...
Now that I think about it I don´t remember any lowbies being kicked in a LONG time. Usually people just leave nowadays, and that only when it´s obvious the tank cannot take any damage for example.
I vividly remember doing nFH with a PUG. We got stuck on Cernunnon since the others didn´t know how to permakill adds. Ok, not odd since it takes some figuring out, did for me too. However even after repeatedly telling them what to do, all 3 would still kill adds and then stand like idiots and do nothing despite there being.. y´know... a giant yellow circle, obviously telling you to try SOMETHING. After this happened like 10 times, I figured I could just solo it, but having a "Im going to be a ***"-day, these people simply didn´t deserve a clear. I explained that and left. Got into a new PUG where again noone understood mechanics, though after I explained twice someone finally got the message
Edited by MaleAmazon on 7 March 2019 21:571 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »Tan9oSuccka wrote: »profundidob16_ESO wrote: »profundidob16_ESO wrote: »When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)
When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content
That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.
It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.
Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.
Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.
One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.
TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content
for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.
Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.
Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.
They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.
If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P
You do not need to read a guide. If you die 3 times to something then you know that that is an issue you need to look at and figure out how to do it. I've never read a guide for any 4 man content in this game excluding vbrp where I was too derpy to figure out how to deal with bug bomb.
Those attros in brf turn red and suddenly everyone dies. How many wipes till you realize that they need to be killed. Tunnel vision is bad. Pay attention and no guide is ever needed.
Right. Now please go tell that to the 90% of pug population that keeps failing at this...
Thing is....Nobody stops and takes 20 seconds to explain mechanics to perhaps someone that hasn’t run it before. Novel concept I know.
99.99% either start pointing fingers, kick or like a child, leave in a huff.
99.99% of the PUG population won't even bother to inform the team they haven't the slightest clue what's going on. They'd rather sit on the floor dead for all but 10 seconds of the fight rather than admit to ignorance.
It’s true. Though I’d say it’s a vicious circle.
1. People don’t want to admit they’re new to the content out of fear of automatic kick.
2. People that do know what’s going on have absolutely zero patience, tolerance or tact to explain.
I’m not sure what the answer is. Vet PUG groups are wildly different every time.
Very rarely everyone knows their role and have excellent gear and rotations.
Most of the time, it’s a light bow attack spammer running siege shield. (Yes, this has happened more than once).2 -
DLM✭✭✭✭✭Tan9oSuccka wrote: »1. People don’t want to admit they’re new to the content out of fear of automatic kick.
One has to be naive to think that others won't figure it out. If someone comes forward (I said someone, if I end in a group of 3 persons new to the dungeon, sorry but I'm out) at the start of the run, I won't have any issue giving a quick explanation. If I find out that you hid it, I won't have the same patience.
Honesty goes a long way.2 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
B.S.Thats because they are afraid if they say its their first time they will be insta kicked from the gruop.
Two options:- Be honest upfront, potentially get kicked from the group.
- Deceit by omission, which will become painfully clear at the first pull/boss/mechanic and definitively get kicked from the group.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS1 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭To answer the OP question: Because i dont want or need a mini raid masquerading as a dungeon. Who wants to spend 45 minutes plus running a single dungeon.5 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
B.S.Thats because they are afraid if they say its their first time they will be insta kicked from the gruop.
Two options:- Be honest upfront, potentially get kicked from the group.
- Deceit by omission, which will become painfully clear at the first pull/boss/mechanic and definitively get kicked from the group.
Just an observation. You’d probably be more of the common kick kind.
What was the first thing you said? The very first thing was an attack.
What you said after is fine, but not sure what Mika wrote triggered that initial response because I’ve seen it personally a billion times. They’re totally right.
I do not vote to kick after someone is upfront about it, but then see two little kids leave in a huff because the vote failed.2 -
Varana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭profundidob16_ESO wrote: »Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.
A large part of this is that the death recap is of ... limited helpfulness, with its fancy names for stuff.
Oh, I got hit by "Meteor Of Total Doom" by the boss for 70k. Gee, I saw that I got hit with a meteor. It doesn't tell me anything useful, really.
The death recap is only useful if you set out to methodically analyse the fight. Just reading it doesn't help.2 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Anotherone773 wrote: »To answer the OP question: Because i dont want or need a mini raid masquerading as a dungeon. Who wants to spend 45 minutes plus running a single dungeon.
I agree with this.0 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Can agree with this- but I laughed when my main jumped off the edge of the Coldharbour home, died, and the death recap said “Watch your step”profundidob16_ESO wrote: »Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.
A large part of this is that the death recap is of ... limited helpfulness, with its fancy names for stuff.
Oh, I got hit by "Meteor Of Total Doom" by the boss for 70k. Gee, I saw that I got hit with a meteor. It doesn't tell me anything useful, really.
The death recap is only useful if you set out to methodically analyse the fight. Just reading it doesn't help.
1 -
Skayaq✭✭✭✭✭profundidob16_ESO wrote: »Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.
A large part of this is that the death recap is of ... limited helpfulness, with its fancy names for stuff.
Oh, I got hit by "Meteor Of Total Doom" by the boss for 70k. Gee, I saw that I got hit with a meteor. It doesn't tell me anything useful, really.
The death recap is only useful if you set out to methodically analyse the fight. Just reading it doesn't help.
For DLC dungeons at least there are helpful tips at the bottom explaining some of the mechanics of the fight.
Kazari-Dar, Khajiit Nightblade..........Jarkyr Storm-Blade, Nord Sorcerer .......... Dunric Amedain, Breton Templar
Araniwen, Altmer Sorcerer..................Llirasa Andralu, Dunmer Templar...................Marzug gro-Borgaz, Orc Warden
Calinchel, Bosmer Warden...................Jahrel-Xei, Argonian Nightblade....................Cienri Maraeud, Breton Sorcerer
Inara Savicci, Imperial Templar...................Garoric Attilus, Imperial Dragonknight............ Maevina Tallian, Imperial Nightblade
Ravanni-Ko, Khajiit Dragonknight..........Faevyn Ice-Heart, Nord Warden..........Nazran al-Taneth, Redguard Dragonknight1 -
profundidob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭profundidob16_ESO wrote: »When you have people cancelling ESO because they don’t want to be forced into DLC dungeon content (which was supposed to be a BONUS for them remember)
When you have thread after thread after thread demanding a way of AVOIDING DLC content
That’s when you know you have a problem. And kudos to ZOS for actually trying to deal with it. And double kudos to Finn for coming onto the thread to explain their thinking.
It’s only natural that ZOS should look at the failure points in the DLC dungeons and try to address them. Isn’t that what all the “I want a harder overland mode” posts are calling for? I’m glad they have begun to address this.
Planar Inhibitor is a great example. Everyone knows it was a roadblock in that dungeon, a genuine PUG killer. Not the cool challenge it was meant to be but a MASSIVE disincentive to player engagement with the dungeon. While the mechanics are cool, the implementation of the mechanics were flawed. I applaud anything that makes the various sequences of that fight more obvious, so players get the appropriate cues and can actually play through the dungeon without having to have a tutorial. That’s not dumbing it down, that’s correcting poor dungeon design.
Less sure about the BRF changes, in particular the removal of the stone atronarchs. Here the mechanics are very clear, so it’s very possible for a group that hasn’t done the dungeon before to understand what needs to be done. It isn’t all about DPS. What is hard is coordinating it all, focusing the boss, standing in the lava, dodging the fire Shalks attacks and prioritising the stone atronarchs while jumping on and off the island. I can see why it’s a stumbling block for many groups, but having done it, I’m not sure removing the atronarchs is the best way to deal with this.
One thing I’m certain of is I’m glad ZOS has ignored all those who say these dungeons are easy simply because their DPS is big enough to burn through any mechanics. If your strategy is simply to nuke everything, you might be successful, but you’re not playing the game. Your game wants to make vet just like normal, where the mechanics are invisible because they never fire off. And I’m sad that too often beating bosses is just about the DPS. I’d rather the game was about outwitting interesting mechanics than a constant series of inane DPS checks.
TL:DR kudos to ZOS and let’s hope this makes more players WANT to do this content
for the record: BRF stone atronachs mechanic was not clear at all, just like Plane inhibitor it's a clear case of bad and non-intuitive telegraphing or simply total lack of it. Of all the pugs I have led up to this very encounter to then see disband at this point not a single one understood by themselves that the stone atronachs 1-shot wipe the group after a timer expires until I typed it all out for them in full sentences in group chat.
Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.
Now if the stone atronachs animation-wise had been replaced with a giant version of the volcano eruption that grows to 3 times the size of the ones that Galchobar does and then finally explode with 1 supernova BOOM visible throughout the entire island that would have solved the problem and made it crystal clear. That would have intuitively telegraphed to even the smallest kid (that can't read/understand english) that something grows over a 30sec timer and at the end it explodes resulting in 1shot wipe for the group so the only way to prevent that is kill it first.
They did it perfect with the hammer slam technique. That's how everything should visually correspond in the game and they got it right there.
If ESO devs expect the average ESO player to go look up and read online detailed guides or dig into combat logs they got it all wrong at the design phase ! =P
LOL, I love that mental image.
This is definitely something that ZOS does poorly. Take Warlord Tzogvin, for example. He has that mechanic where he gets a shield and hits everyone with fire until either the shield breaks or everyone dies. When we saw this for the first time, we were struck by how similar it was to the shield mechanic on the first boss of MoL, so we treated it like that and lo and behold we were right and it worked.
But what about people who haven't run vMoL and thus don't recognize the mechanic? Well, we were watching Ninja stream PTS runs later that week, and they wiped a lot to that mechanic because it's not intuitive. There's a lot of incoming damage, so their first instinct was to just turtle up: spam heals, hold block, etc., but that meant they weren't damaging the shield, and the mechanic would wipe them out. It's a perfectly reasonable instinct, and if it were not for our familiarity with an analogous mechanic from a trial, we probably would've thought to do the same thing as they did. Eventually, I told told them in the stream it's a DPS race and that they must destroy the damage shield before it kills them, and they got it right away. But it's not intuitive, and I can definitely see PUGs struggling with it.
Or Rizzuk. That's even more unintuitive. Hell, our feedback on the PTS was along the lines of, "Despite killing this boss multiple times, we still don't fully understand how the mechanics work. We have a strategy that works well, but we aren't quite sure why it works well."
Unfortunately, by the time PTS rolls around, I suspect they're pretty limited in what they could do. Revamping the visuals of a fight is something that probably couldn't be fit into a short PTS period.
Last night tanked and guided a new vet random pug run through Frostvault, a new story. People listened to mechanics and tried to do them, getting the thrash right and eventually making it -after a wipe- through the first troll boss after a very long fight with rezzes but due to very low dps we simply couldn't kill Tzogvin's shield...ever. The healer seemed experienced enough to realize that with this dps, the rest of the dungeon was as good as impossible so he left the group and we commonly agreed to quit this run. Without a proper dps check in order to unlock veteran DLC this problem will remain.
About Rizzuk and intuitiveness: In retrospect I must admit that during our first mechanics learning run on PTS I must have wiped our group at least 5 times while tanking the frost atro before I actually started having any clue of what was 2-shotting me (this was before all the nerfs) over and over and that it was in fact a different mechanic each time. It was only after reading the death logs and ignorantly trying several apparently 'lethal' actions like dodgerolling out of glacial prison that I started understanding there were in fact 5 different deadly mechanics happening often during the same 3 seconds:
-1 melee dps was too close to me because we tried to dmge the frost atro instead of just Rizzuk and an unlucky timed freeze blew us up
-Dodgerolling out of glacial prison blew me up (this was pretty much 1 shot before the nerfs)
-inside the glacial prison ring 3 different deadly aoe's had to be dodged that I wasn't even aware of while looking around
It's only now that everything makes sense but I remember clearly that at that point all I knew was...BOOM..dead...and no idea why tbh
So yes thanks to all the nerfs to all these mechanics can now no longer overlap and are always nicely spread in time as well no longer lethal. Upon the Rizzuk aoe freeze mechanic the atro temporarily stops all his mechanics, making it 10 times easier to detect what mechanic kills you because at any given time there's only 1 mechanic going on at a time.
2 -
profundidob16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Reistr_the_Unbroken wrote: »
Can agree with this- but I laughed when my main jumped off the edge of the Coldharbour home, died, and the death recap said “Watch your step”profundidob16_ESO wrote: »Looking back in perspective I now have to admit: How could they have known actually unless they start reading the logs of why they died and put 1 and 1 together. But pugs also contain 9-year old non english native players and generally really don't read or analyze combat logs, not even the huge one that slams in your face after your die and screams in large font what killed you. They just close the dialogue box, rezz themselves on the spot only to go and make the same mistakes again over and over.
A large part of this is that the death recap is of ... limited helpfulness, with its fancy names for stuff.
Oh, I got hit by "Meteor Of Total Doom" by the boss for 70k. Gee, I saw that I got hit with a meteor. It doesn't tell me anything useful, really.
The death recap is only useful if you set out to methodically analyse the fight. Just reading it doesn't help.
who is this invisible enemy called "gravity" and how did he kill me ?? 0 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »To answer the OP question: Because i dont want or need a mini raid masquerading as a dungeon. Who wants to spend 45 minutes plus running a single dungeon.
I agree with this.
You know what? When the game came out and people didn't have 50 levels and 810 CP, half an hour doing a dungeon was pretty reasonable. Same when veteran dungeons came out, in fact many speedruns, i.e. challenges that are intended to be faster than the average group, were timed around that. If you now want to clear a dungeon in 10 minutes and be done with it, it's you who've changed, not the content. This isn't to say there isn't a problem when people get bored and just want the carrot. But for new dungeons, 30-45 minutes in a not-elite group is really not unreasonable.2 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »To answer the OP question: Because i dont want or need a mini raid masquerading as a dungeon. Who wants to spend 45 minutes plus running a single dungeon.
I agree with this.
You know what? When the game came out and people didn't have 50 levels and 810 CP, half an hour doing a dungeon was pretty reasonable. Same when veteran dungeons came out, in fact many speedruns, i.e. challenges that are intended to be faster than the average group, were timed around that. If you now want to clear a dungeon in 10 minutes and be done with it, it's you who've changed, not the content. This isn't to say there isn't a problem when people get bored and just want the carrot. But for new dungeons, 30-45 minutes in a not-elite group is really not unreasonable.
I was there bub. Name one dungeon that took more then 30 minutes before 2015. Even the longest that I can remember, coa, would take 20-30 with a bad group.
30 minutes is the longest I would out forth for the meger rewards of the dlc dungeons. All the sets are crap. All the skins are crap. There is really no reason to have them be as hard as they areEdited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on 8 March 2019 12:070 -
Anotherone773✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Anotherone773 wrote: »To answer the OP question: Because i dont want or need a mini raid masquerading as a dungeon. Who wants to spend 45 minutes plus running a single dungeon.
I agree with this.
You know what? When the game came out and people didn't have 50 levels and 810 CP, half an hour doing a dungeon was pretty reasonable. Same when veteran dungeons came out, in fact many speedruns, i.e. challenges that are intended to be faster than the average group, were timed around that. If you now want to clear a dungeon in 10 minutes and be done with it, it's you who've changed, not the content. This isn't to say there isn't a problem when people get bored and just want the carrot. But for new dungeons, 30-45 minutes in a not-elite group is really not unreasonable.
I was there bub. Name one dungeon that took more then 30 minutes before 2015. Even the longest that I can remember, coa, would take 20-30 with a bad group.
30 minutes is the longest I would out forth for the meger rewards of the dlc dungeons. All the sets are crap. All the skins are crap. There is really no reason to have them be as hard as they are
They are excessively long for no other purpose but to be excessively long. Large areas of nothing between even groups of trash. Basically all they did was add an excessive amount of filler content to dungeons and then crank up the income damage to raid levels from multiple sources including the environment. They just made them tedious. i want to kill stuff in a instance not run half way across Tamriel on foot in one.4 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
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@Tan9oSuccka , you'd be wrong. Anyone that knows me knows I've helped 100's, if not 1000's of first timers through loads of content and never have issue explaining the mechanics if it's made known.Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
B.S.Thats because they are afraid if they say its their first time they will be insta kicked from the gruop.
Two options:- Be honest upfront, potentially get kicked from the group.
- Deceit by omission, which will become painfully clear at the first pull/boss/mechanic and definitively get kicked from the group.
Just an observation. You’d probably be more of the common kick kind.
Equally, I don't like my time to be wasted, nor that of the group's. So, if from my experience, I know they group has zero chance of a clear, I will make that known in a courteous way. A group beating its head against the wall to no end doesn't help anyone.
At the same time, if you don't speak, especially when the question is asked ("anyone new?," "Everyone familiar?") then it becomes a completely different thing.
I call it like I see it. Always have.What was the first thing you said? The very first thing was an attack.
What you said after is fine, but not sure what Mika wrote triggered that initial response because I’ve seen it personally a billion times. They’re totally right.
I do not vote to kick after someone is upfront about it, but then see two little kids leave in a huff because the vote failed.
Sugar coating or dancing around things helps no one. The blanket statement made was flat out wrong, and will more likely guarantee the boot vs being upfront, and still occasionally getting the boot anyway.
Not speaking up, and subsequently trying to BS your way through it as if you realize what needs to happen is flat out bad advice. It's also an empty excuse, because any experienced group, heck, any inexperienced group is going to know in short order anyway.
The hostility vibe you're getting has a lot to do with particular people spewing a lot of misinformation as of late, yet still trying to speak for the masses as truth. Feel free to peruse posting history and it will start to make sense.
So, yeah. B.S.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS1 -
Tan9oSuccka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
@Tan9oSuccka , you'd be wrong. Anyone that knows me knows I've helped 100's, if not 1000's of first timers through loads of content and never have issue explaining the mechanics if it's made known.Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
B.S.Thats because they are afraid if they say its their first time they will be insta kicked from the gruop.
Two options:- Be honest upfront, potentially get kicked from the group.
- Deceit by omission, which will become painfully clear at the first pull/boss/mechanic and definitively get kicked from the group.
Just an observation. You’d probably be more of the common kick kind.
Equally, I don't like my time to be wasted, nor that of the group's. So, if from my experience, I know they group has zero chance of a clear, I will make that known in a courteous way. A group beating its head against the wall to no end doesn't help anyone.
At the same time, if you don't speak, especially when the question is asked ("anyone new?," "Everyone familiar?") then it becomes a completely different thing.
I call it like I see it. Always have.What was the first thing you said? The very first thing was an attack.
What you said after is fine, but not sure what Mika wrote triggered that initial response because I’ve seen it personally a billion times. They’re totally right.
I do not vote to kick after someone is upfront about it, but then see two little kids leave in a huff because the vote failed.
Sugar coating or dancing around things helps no one. The blanket statement made was flat out wrong, and will more likely guarantee the boot vs being upfront, and still occasionally getting the boot anyway.
Not speaking up, and subsequently trying to BS your way through it as if you realize what needs to happen is flat out bad advice. It's also an empty excuse, because any experienced group, heck, any inexperienced group is going to know in short order anyway.
The hostility vibe you're getting has a lot to do with particular people spewing a lot of misinformation as of late, yet still trying to speak for the masses as truth. Feel free to peruse posting history and it will start to make sense.
So, yeah. B.S.
You must be a “Diamond in the rough” then taking the time to explain mechanics to new players. That’s not how those scenarios go in real life though.
The original statement was not without merit or incorrect. I’ve seen it first hand more times than I can explain. Someone is upfront about not knowing, and a vote to kick comes up immediately.
Refuting a “blanket statement” with your own “blanket statement” just doesn’t make sense.
So I guess, BS is for Blanket Statement? 0 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
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You don't have to believe it for it to remain bad advice.Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
@Tan9oSuccka , you'd be wrong. Anyone that knows me knows I've helped 100's, if not 1000's of first timers through loads of content and never have issue explaining the mechanics if it's made known.Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
B.S.Thats because they are afraid if they say its their first time they will be insta kicked from the gruop.
Two options:- Be honest upfront, potentially get kicked from the group.
- Deceit by omission, which will become painfully clear at the first pull/boss/mechanic and definitively get kicked from the group.
Just an observation. You’d probably be more of the common kick kind.
Equally, I don't like my time to be wasted, nor that of the group's. So, if from my experience, I know they group has zero chance of a clear, I will make that known in a courteous way. A group beating its head against the wall to no end doesn't help anyone.
At the same time, if you don't speak, especially when the question is asked ("anyone new?," "Everyone familiar?") then it becomes a completely different thing.
I call it like I see it. Always have.What was the first thing you said? The very first thing was an attack.
What you said after is fine, but not sure what Mika wrote triggered that initial response because I’ve seen it personally a billion times. They’re totally right.
I do not vote to kick after someone is upfront about it, but then see two little kids leave in a huff because the vote failed.
Sugar coating or dancing around things helps no one. The blanket statement made was flat out wrong, and will more likely guarantee the boot vs being upfront, and still occasionally getting the boot anyway.
Not speaking up, and subsequently trying to BS your way through it as if you realize what needs to happen is flat out bad advice. It's also an empty excuse, because any experienced group, heck, any inexperienced group is going to know in short order anyway.
The hostility vibe you're getting has a lot to do with particular people spewing a lot of misinformation as of late, yet still trying to speak for the masses as truth. Feel free to peruse posting history and it will start to make sense.
So, yeah. B.S.
You must be a “Diamond in the rough” then taking the time to explain mechanics to new players. That’s not how those scenarios go in real life though.
The original statement was not without merit or incorrect. I’ve seen it first hand more times than I can explain. Someone is upfront about not knowing, and a vote to kick comes up immediately.
Refuting a “blanket statement” with your own “blanket statement” just doesn’t make sense.
So I guess, BS is for Blanket Statement?
The first option has a chance of failing regardless. The second has a much smaller chance of succeeding, as you've already got a strike against you at that point.
Definitely, if the question is asked, your answer should be the honest one, because you're not too likely to fake your way through anything that warrants needing explanation in the first place.
If you try to circumvent on the off chance a group might not notice, it should blow up in your face every single time.
Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS1 -
Sylvermynx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
You don't have to believe it for it to remain bad advice.Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
@Tan9oSuccka , you'd be wrong. Anyone that knows me knows I've helped 100's, if not 1000's of first timers through loads of content and never have issue explaining the mechanics if it's made known.Tan9oSuccka wrote: »Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
B.S.Thats because they are afraid if they say its their first time they will be insta kicked from the gruop.
Two options:- Be honest upfront, potentially get kicked from the group.
- Deceit by omission, which will become painfully clear at the first pull/boss/mechanic and definitively get kicked from the group.
Just an observation. You’d probably be more of the common kick kind.
Equally, I don't like my time to be wasted, nor that of the group's. So, if from my experience, I know they group has zero chance of a clear, I will make that known in a courteous way. A group beating its head against the wall to no end doesn't help anyone.
At the same time, if you don't speak, especially when the question is asked ("anyone new?," "Everyone familiar?") then it becomes a completely different thing.
I call it like I see it. Always have.What was the first thing you said? The very first thing was an attack.
What you said after is fine, but not sure what Mika wrote triggered that initial response because I’ve seen it personally a billion times. They’re totally right.
I do not vote to kick after someone is upfront about it, but then see two little kids leave in a huff because the vote failed.
Sugar coating or dancing around things helps no one. The blanket statement made was flat out wrong, and will more likely guarantee the boot vs being upfront, and still occasionally getting the boot anyway.
Not speaking up, and subsequently trying to BS your way through it as if you realize what needs to happen is flat out bad advice. It's also an empty excuse, because any experienced group, heck, any inexperienced group is going to know in short order anyway.
The hostility vibe you're getting has a lot to do with particular people spewing a lot of misinformation as of late, yet still trying to speak for the masses as truth. Feel free to peruse posting history and it will start to make sense.
So, yeah. B.S.
You must be a “Diamond in the rough” then taking the time to explain mechanics to new players. That’s not how those scenarios go in real life though.
The original statement was not without merit or incorrect. I’ve seen it first hand more times than I can explain. Someone is upfront about not knowing, and a vote to kick comes up immediately.
Refuting a “blanket statement” with your own “blanket statement” just doesn’t make sense.
So I guess, BS is for Blanket Statement?
The first option has a chance of failing regardless. The second has a much smaller chance of succeeding, as you've already got a strike against you at that point.
Definitely, if the question is asked, your answer should be the honest one, because you're not too likely to fake your way through anything that warrants needing explanation in the first place.
If you try to circumvent on the off chance a group might not notice, it should blow up in your face every single time.
So, okay.... I've had my issues with your posts in the past. But on this one, you wiped that slate clean. Lying is - just stupid. The rest of the group is going to know you lied the MINUTE you prove you can't adapt to whatever is incoming. And if you don't know the mechanics, well.... you can't adapt.
I don't do group content - but not for any reason other than my ping (2000 ms + - on a GOOD day - and no, I'm not joking.... it's the reality where I live). I don't do group content because asking people with "real broadband" to put up with my substandard everything is simply not fair to them.
But in other games when I did try group content, well.... things didn't go well, so I learned my lesson. I'm not gimping a group just because I have some oddball need to read quest text.... which is really all it is for me (oh please, ZOS, give me a story mode thing.... I don't want anything from it but to enjoy the stories....)2 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »[
"Wildstar" argument... we will have many people like you parroting that for atleast two months from now on. Your "majority" can still experience the story and the encounters on normal.
Well, obviously people are just falling over themselves to do DLC dungeons. Just, hand over fist....
I haven't fallen over squat to try to do anything since horns of the reach still dont have the dye and or helms... cant find enough like minded people falling all over to even queue for pugs much less vet guildies.. same goes for most trials.3 -
BuddyAces✭✭✭✭✭
✭Mettaricana wrote: »Facefister wrote: »[
"Wildstar" argument... we will have many people like you parroting that for atleast two months from now on. Your "majority" can still experience the story and the encounters on normal.
Well, obviously people are just falling over themselves to do DLC dungeons. Just, hand over fist....
I haven't fallen over squat to try to do anything since horns of the reach still dont have the dye and or helms... cant find enough like minded people falling all over to even queue for pugs much less vet guildies.. same goes for most trials.
If you hang out in Craglorn, all you see spammed in chat are groups looking for people for the newest DLC dungeons and trials, sometimes vet ones.
They nerfed magsorcs so hard stamsorcs felt it,lol - Somber97866
I'm blown away by the utter stupidity I see here on the daily. - Wrekkedd0 -
Universe✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭To be honest, I have no idea why ZOS is still releasing new Dungeon DLCs, they are not needed given how many Dungeon DLCs we already have(we have plenty and I bet 90% of the player base only completed on average 20% of all dungeons and in normal).
I would have preferred if the development team's focus was on Story DLCs and improving PVP.
As for why they are making some dungeons easier, it is for helping the casual crowd to complete the dungeons.
Not everyone are in elite PVE guilds.Some videos I recorded for fun: Main character:
PC EU main: Universe - AD magicka Sorcerer, Former Emperor, Grand Overlord, The Merciless, Trial Bosses Solo Champion
Top alts: Genius(stamina/sagicka Dragonknight) The Force(stamina Nightblade) and other chars.
PC NA main: The Magic - AD magicka Sorcerer
Started playing ESO in beta & early access
User_ID: Daedric_Prince2 -
Miswar✭✭✭✭✭They are nerfing these because bulk of the eso players do not want to spend time to improve their gameplay
In all honesty if you put somewhat effort you can finish any dungeons in the game easily.
Instead of nerfing dlc dungeons they should BUFF the normal versions dungeons which would result people actually making the effort to learn rotations, mechanics etc.
ESO is lacking end game badly already in terms of PvE and PvP content. Most of the content is ridiciliously easy as it is already.2 -
munster1404✭✭✭✭Maybe the completion rate of those dungeons was too abysmal? I for one avoid all DLC dungeons because of the difficulty level and as a result miss out on the dungeon quest stories and dialogues. Tbh, I welcome the nerfs. Maybe that will motivate me to try the dungeons out.1
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shack80✭✭✭Merlin13KAGL wrote: »
B.S.Thats because they are afraid if they say its their first time they will be insta kicked from the gruop.
Two options:- Be honest upfront, potentially get kicked from the group.
- Deceit by omission, which will become painfully clear at the first pull/boss/mechanic and definitively get kicked from the group.
I agree. Its waste of time if group finds out this after the 1st boss. Even if you dont say you are a 1st timer it will be shown quickly. Better to raise hand up and ask that some1 explains b4 bosses. Thats alot better than just dying all the time because not knowing what todo.1 -
shack80✭✭✭They are nerfing these because bulk of the eso players do not want to spend time to improve their gameplay
In all honesty if you put somewhat effort you can finish any dungeons in the game easily.
Instead of nerfing dlc dungeons they should BUFF the normal versions dungeons which would result people actually making the effort to learn rotations, mechanics etc.
ESO is lacking end game badly already in terms of PvE and PvP content. Most of the content is ridiciliously easy as it is already.
This is also a good point. The cap between normal and veteran is so huge that ppl think that when they complete the normal one they can easily do the veteran one only to find out that ads can actually kill you and there are one shot mechanics.
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ThePlayer✭✭✭✭I dont care what they changed, i'll not play with pvp DDs, fake healer or fake tank, that's it.
Imperial City DLC= pvp players= they cant play dlc vet dungeons if they not change, at least, gear and skills and reach 25k dps.
Are you a pvp player? play the dlc dungeons vet with your friends pvps, not with me :P0
