So since nerfing DW didn't magically make 2H a good option...

Azyle1 · January 2019

Can we please consider either -

1.) Making it to where you can put the same enchant on MH and OH and it counts as a full enchant? ( still only have 2 like 2H )

or

2.) Just let people enchant the MH with a full enchant.. make OH unenchantable (That may not be a word).

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam

Vapirko · January 2019

Pulling this from another discussion on this topic. This person really nailed it. Great idea I hope the devs see this if they insist on going through with this nerf.

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

I’m not going to go into whether enchants should be balanced between dual wield and two handed no matter what this will result in a nerf to dual wield.

But, if the goal is to make enchants balance between dual wield and two handed, then I think the proposed change on PTS is the wrong way to go about it. As stated by many previously, the problem with simply halving the strength of one handed enchants means that if dual wielding you lose out when using things like berserker, crushing or absorb glyphs as two half strength enchants is weaker than one full strength enchant. It is also a straight up nerf to sword and shield.

A potentially better way to achieve the desired balance would be to leave one handed enchants strength unchanged but make enchant procs for dual wield share cooldown (even if the enchants are different), with the caveat that they will always proc alternating so both occur. This would effectively halve the current proc rate for dual wield, but also mean using two of the same enchant is no longer strictly worse than two different enchants (which is currently the case as two of the same enchants share cooldown).

Ie: If dual wielding two infused weapons with two different enchants, say absorb stamina and poison, you would get procs as follows
Absorb stamina – 2 sec cooldown – Poison – 2 sec cooldown – repeat
Or if you had two of the same, say two absorb stamina
Absorb stamina #1 – 2 sec cooldown – Absorb stamina #2 – 2 sec cooldown – repeat

The effects of this change would be as follows:
1) Enchantment strength is more balanced between dual wield and two handed. Ie: you get exactly the same total enchant proc rate and strength with dual wield and two handed by putting the same enchant on both dual wield weapons, or alternatively you can have half the proc rate on two different enchants.
2) Infused trait is more balanced between dual wield and two handed. Ie: to get the equivalent of an infused two hander you would have to make both dual wield weapons infused, whereas running something like nirn/infused would be a reduced overall enchant proc rate vs infused two hander.
3) Sword and shield would effectively be unchanged from live, so would still have access to a full strength enchant and be balanced with dual wield and two handed.
4) There would be a slight weird effect if using two enchants with different cooldowns as in this case it wouldn’t simply be a half proc rate for both enchants vs current live due to the alternating nature (one would be more than halved rate, while the other would be less than halved rate).
5) There would be an additional slight nerf to dual wield burst as you would no longer be able to proc the two enchants on two subsequent attacks (or with something like twin slashes). But this would still be in line with two handed.

DarkPicture · January 2019

At first go check dw and compare to 2h on pts, next come to us are create a crying post or not. Because dw deserve on CHANGES its not a nerf, like traits u have only 50% on 1handed it should be from begining same as with enchants. And maybe finally meta will change a bit not only dw + bow.

Azyle1 · January 2019

Browart wrote: »

At first go check dw and compare to 2h on pts, next come to us are create a crying post or not. Because dw deserve on CHANGES its not a nerf, like traits u have only 50% on 1handed it should be from begining same as with enchants. And maybe finally meta will change a bit not only dw + bow.

You're typing is as bad as your argument.

John_Falstaff · January 2019

Browart wrote: »

At first go check dw and compare to 2h on pts, next come to us are create a crying post or not. Because dw deserve on CHANGES its not a nerf, like traits u have only 50% on 1handed it should be from begining same as with enchants. And maybe finally meta will change a bit not only dw + bow.

Sure meta will change. Only not towards 2H, however much the proponents of nerf want to believe. It will change towards magicka, because magicka, despite having only one enchant per bar, was in good balance with DW, and now that DW was nerfed to the level of 2H - which didn't suddenly improve overnight to give a staff a run for its money - stamina just lost its positions as a whole. That's what you get for measuring balance by counting enchants.

DarkPicture · January 2019

Azyle1 wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

At first go check dw and compare to 2h on pts, next come to us are create a crying post or not. Because dw deserve on CHANGES its not a nerf, like traits u have only 50% on 1handed it should be from begining same as with enchants. And maybe finally meta will change a bit not only dw + bow.

You're typing is as bad as your argument.

@Azyle1 Because your mind has stuck at low iq and u dont see what is nerf what is balance, go and create more non constructive posts without any arguments or even screenshots to prove your post. Bye

And ZoS will not even considering your posts cuz its useless, what makes me happy.

Azyle1 · January 2019

Browart wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

Browart wrote: »

At first go check dw and compare to 2h on pts, next come to us are create a crying post or not. Because dw deserve on CHANGES its not a nerf, like traits u have only 50% on 1handed it should be from begining same as with enchants. And maybe finally meta will change a bit not only dw + bow.

You're typing is as bad as your argument.

@Azyle1 Because your mind has stuck at low iq and u dont see what is nerf what is balance, go and create more non constructive posts without any arguments or even screenshots to prove your post. Bye

And ZoS will not even considering your posts cuz its useless, what makes me happy.

Ok - Good Talk.

Mag main confirmed.

Bc_bmx · January 2019

I looked at 2h and dual wield last night, very close in damage, but merely out classed by, the staves. The light attack damage between the 2h/dual wield, capped out at around 15% of my total damage done. With a magic build, using staves, the total was near 24% of my damage done. Maybe a buff to the light attack damage of the bow/2h/dual wield lines is in order.

validifyedneb18_ESO · January 2019

For the first time in a long time im thinking about going back to stamsorc and this nerf hits.

Im not toooo sad I dont think... I mean I am, having that wep damage proc was great, especially because I dont use bow/endless on backwar to endlessly proc it for me.

But in general... I kinda like this attempt to even the playing field. The closer everything is to eachother the more builds open up as viable for PVE. Of course we're miles away from ever having a choice in what we do if we want decent dps in trials and dungeons, but ill take this nerf on the chin if it means we ultimately end up with a more even playing field for builds.

GaunterODim · January 2019

I get why they would want to make that change happen, but I dont get why stam doesnt get any form of compensation.
Imo stam and mag were relatively well balanced once again and this does not only reduce stams damage, but also their sustain as you will probably still be going to run the berserker enchant on the bow.
The proposition from @ExistingRug61 with the shared cooldowns doesnt seem bad though. The only advantage the mechanic on pts has would probably be procing status effect more often.

LiquidPony · January 2019

Browart wrote: »

At first go check dw and compare to 2h on pts, next come to us are create a crying post or not. Because dw deserve on CHANGES its not a nerf, like traits u have only 50% on 1handed it should be from begining same as with enchants. And maybe finally meta will change a bit not only dw + bow.

Tis a silly argument.

The problem, as I'm sure 1,000 people have already described, is that you now *have* to use a 2H weapon if you want a full-value enchant (this is particularly relevant to Berserker and Absorb Stamina for stam DDs and Crusher/Weakening for tanks).

So going beyond meta stam DD builds, anyone using DW/S&B or S&B/S&B or DW/DW in PvE or PvP also feels this nerf pretty strongly.

The meta in PvE is not going to change from DW/bow because of this (and it won't, IMO, until we get buffs to 2H lights/heavies, a usable 2H spammable, and a 2H weapon that grants weapon critical). However, many builds that were *not* using 2H weapons at all will now have to change. So if the goal was to "increase diversity", the opposite is likely to happen.

GaunterODim wrote: »

I get why they would want to make that change happen, but I dont get why stam doesnt get any form of compensation.
Imo stam and mag were relatively well balanced once again and this does not only reduce stams damage, but also their sustain as you will probably still be going to run the berserker enchant on the bow.
The proposition from @ExistingRug61 with the shared cooldowns doesnt seem bad though. The only advantage the mechanic on pts has would probably be procing status effect more often.

This is true but stam DPS and sustain did get a compensating buff with racial passives. For instance, classes that had solid sustain can now run Orc and get a DPS boost from the WD bonus. Stamsorcs using weapon spammables can run Redguard which is a huge sustain increase. Also, while it isn't relevant for all classes, Deadly Strike seems to be a moderate DPS gain for classes that do around ~50% DoT damage (stamsorcs, stamplars, maybe stamDKs).

Ultimately I don't think the DW enchant changes are going to be a huge deal in terms of DPS/sustain. It's certainly a DPS loss but not the end of the world.

My big problem with the change is that if we're going to Nirn + Precise + Poisons ... that's *expensive*. Now I've got like 30 weapons that I need to transmute and I'll be spending all of my gold on Nightshade and Nirnroot for the foreseeable future.

And finally the one real bummer is that it totally messes up Prismatic usage. That's the one thing I haven't figured yet. What am I gonna do on my stamblade/stamden on Rakkhat? Keep a separate Infused dagger on hand to run a Prismatic for that fight? Prismatic backbar, skip the Berserker? I dunno.

I just hate having to Transmute a bunch of stuff and spending weeks trying to tease out the "new meta" every patch. Again, too many big changes at once.

Twohothardware · January 2019

The biggest issue with Two handed isn't the damage, it's that the skills suck. They are all clunky and you lack the support skills like Deadly Cloak that duel wield offers. Skills like Dizzying swing and Wrecking blow need a total rework not just for PvE but PvP as well. It's why the bleed meta has taken over because the direct damage weapon skills all suck.

Ertosi · January 2019

Twohothardware wrote: »

The biggest issue with Two handed isn't the damage, it's that the skills suck. They are all clunky and you lack the support skills like Deadly Cloak that duel wield offers. Skills like Dizzying swing and Wrecking blow need a total rework not just for PvE but PvP as well. It's why the bleed meta has taken over because the direct damage weapon skills all suck.

No matter if it concerns class or weapon skills, I'm sure any time someone feels a particular weapon or class sucks is because they don't "get" it's play style as well as the other skill options. Two-hander is by far my favorite weapon and skill line. Between the self heal and buff from Rally, the instant shields while smashing everything from Brawler, and the last kiss from Executioner it's got everything covered for me. Just those three skills alone allowed all 15 of my toons to blitz their way up to lvl 50 in a flash while leveling their other skills with the left over slots. Even after respec'ing to their final builds once at 50, most my stam alts still permanently kept it for a bar. Some of us really do

two-handers.

MashmalloMan · January 2019

Twohothardware wrote: »

The biggest issue with Two handed isn't the damage, it's that the skills suck. They are all clunky and you lack the support skills like Deadly Cloak that duel wield offers. Skills like Dizzying swing and Wrecking blow need a total rework not just for PvE but PvP as well. It's why the bleed meta has taken over because the direct damage weapon skills all suck.

I said this a month ago when multiple posts came up saying to cut them in half. DW was not over performing against 2h because of that. Please see Destro staves...

Now stam DD is behind, 2h still sucks.

Not only the skills, but the tooltips too. Carve is weaker than rending because it has cleave. Cleave isn't important in a DPS parse which people seem to forget so its obviously weaker.

Passives, none of the 2h passives increase single target DPS like DW.

Apparently the only thing we judge the games balance around is under 1 viewpoint and because of that builds suffer.

What a dumb idea. How about ZOS fixes 2h.

1 of the main reasons I don't use 2h is because wrecking blow sucks. If it's the PvE morph without a stun, make it quicker to use. You also require 3 slots for dot/spammable/execute where I don't have the space on a stam sorc. DW abilities have passive execute DMG.

It was never the enchants for me.

TheYKcid · January 2019

I'd be onboard with a full-strength MH & a nullified offhand.

If ZOS truly wants to normalise enchant behaviour between 2H and DW, then that is the purest solution.

LiquidPony · January 2019

Twohothardware wrote: »

The biggest issue with Two handed isn't the damage, it's that the skills suck. They are all clunky and you lack the support skills like Deadly Cloak that duel wield offers. Skills like Dizzying swing and Wrecking blow need a total rework not just for PvE but PvP as well. It's why the bleed meta has taken over because the direct damage weapon skills all suck.

Brawler is a pretty good support skill, arguably more useful than Deadly Cloak in some cases. And the other morph, Carve, has some nice utility via Minor Heroism.

Just make Wrecking Blow instant-cast and that would be a huge improvement.

Also, @ OP, I'm actually having decent luck on 2H stamsorc builds right now. About the same numbers as I'm hitting with DW builds actually. Only problem is that Wrecking Blow is such a nightmare to weave that I have a lot of mistakes in the rotations. But I'm hitting 45k-46k with decent parses on a 2H stamsorc with AY/Relequen/Velidreth.

LiquidPony · January 2019

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

The biggest issue with Two handed isn't the damage, it's that the skills suck. They are all clunky and you lack the support skills like Deadly Cloak that duel wield offers. Skills like Dizzying swing and Wrecking blow need a total rework not just for PvE but PvP as well. It's why the bleed meta has taken over because the direct damage weapon skills all suck.

I said this a month ago when multiple posts came up saying to cut them in half. DW was not over performing against 2h because of that. Please see Destro staves...

Now stam DD is behind, 2h still sucks.

Not only the skills, but the tooltips too. Carve is weaker than rending because it has cleave. Cleave isn't important in a DPS parse which people seem to forget so its obviously weaker.

Passives, none of the 2h passives increase single target DPS like DW.

Apparently the only thing we judge the games balance around is under 1 viewpoint and because of that builds suffer.

What a dumb idea. How about ZOS fixes 2h.

1 of the main reasons I don't use 2h is because wrecking blow sucks. If it's the PvE morph without a stun, make it quicker to use. You also require 3 slots for dot/spammable/execute where I don't have the space on a stam sorc. DW abilities have passive execute DMG.

It was never the enchants for me.

Why do you not have room for three 2H skills on a stamsorc?

2H bar: Wrecking Blow, Carve/Brawler, Executioner/Reverse Slice, Hurricane/Trap, Bound Armamanets. Flawless Dawnbreaker.

Bow bar: Endless Hail, Caltrops, Poison Inject, Trap/Hurricane, Bound Armaments. Storm Atro.

Sure you can't fit Crit Surge anywhere, but if there is some place where you do need it, just swap it out for Carve or even backbar Bound Armaments like other classes do when they need to slot Vigor.

And Carve is weaker than Rending Slashes but it has additional utility. Carve grants Minor Heroism and Brawler grants a nice damage shield.

Dreyloch · January 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

The biggest issue with Two handed isn't the damage, it's that the skills suck. They are all clunky and you lack the support skills like Deadly Cloak that duel wield offers. Skills like Dizzying swing and Wrecking blow need a total rework not just for PvE but PvP as well. It's why the bleed meta has taken over because the direct damage weapon skills all suck.

Brawler is a pretty good support skill, arguably more useful than Deadly Cloak in some cases. And the other morph, Carve, has some nice utility via Minor Heroism.

Just make Wrecking Blow instant-cast and that would be a huge improvement.

Also, @ OP, I'm actually having decent luck on 2H stamsorc builds right now. About the same numbers as I'm hitting with DW builds actually. Only problem is that Wrecking Blow is such a nightmare to weave that I have a lot of mistakes in the rotations. But I'm hitting 45k-46k with decent parses on a 2H stamsorc with AY/Relequen/Velidreth.

And that's great to hear...for...PvE...
Most people not liking 2H skill line and it's use are those playing PvP. Even with the speed changes and everything ZoS has done to make the skills connect against players, the skills are still trash, with garbage animations that STILL don't connect 100% of the time. So Enchant changes are pretty much meaningless because ya can't hit anything in the first place. Whereas DW hits way more often, has more utility, does more damage (without enchants even in the mix), and is now nerfed to make things seem more even when (in your own words) it's hard to weave the animations of 2H as it is.

Most PvP'ers use 2H backbar for rally. Maybe slot execute. That's it. But this is all off topic anyway. Just wanted to point out some facts about 2H use. I still don't see anyone in PuG raids I've gone on that used 2H at all. Just sayin.

Ertosi · January 2019

Dreyloch wrote: »

Most PvP'ers use 2H backbar for rally. Maybe slot execute. That's it. But this is all off topic anyway. Just wanted to point out some facts about 2H use. I still don't see anyone in PuG raids I've gone on that used 2H at all. Just sayin.

That's actually pretty interesting to me because it was all of the pugging I do that made me gravitate towards 2H as much as I do. Pug groups are so wildly unpredictable so I evolved towards complete self-reliance for everything... shields, self heals, and good damage. 2H gives me all of that. My stam DDs usually go 2H/Bow and Tanks 2H/S&B and unless it's a particularly hard-hitting boss the S&B is usually only needed for the taunt and whatever utility skills I put on the bar, letting me mainly stick to the 2Her (but admittedly I'm not brave enough to take my tanks into most vet stuff; I'm fairly new to that role and their CP is still spec'd for DD).