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Redguard's 8% Cost Reduction

MashmalloMan
MashmalloMan
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ZOS wanted racial options to be more universally applicable instead of 1 race fits 1 playstyle – I believe they’ve achieved this for the most part.

This is from a pve stam sorc DD perspective that NEEDED to use Redguard for years in pve.

I wanted to compare RG to Orc and Wood Elf. Didn’t have time for Khajiit, Imperial and Dunmer, but my conclusion is the same.

What equipment I used.
I wanted to standardize the races sustain so my aim was to sustain a 3m test dummy, no group support, no heavy attacks.

Redguard = blue food + 1 hp armor enchant
Wood Elf = blue food + 1 hp armor enchant
Orc = blue food + 1x sta regen/bloodthirsty necklace (Perfect balance between sustain/dps to match RG/WE)

Imperfect Relequen + Veiled Heritance + Stormfist – 7 Medium
Infused VMA bow – Absorb Stamina
Nirn Dagger – Poison
Infused Dagger – Wep Dmg

Blade Cloak | Hurricane | Rearming Trap | Rending Slashes (spammable) | Bound Armor [Flawless Dawnbreaker]
PI | Endless Hail | Crit Surge (not used in tests – pots | Razor Caltrops | Bound Armor [Balista – used in test 2x]

Self buffed parses, 8k penetration with Lover mundus and CP.

All tests came out to 42500 – 43500 dps, with Orc sometimes slightly ahead by 200-400 dps.

Highest potential dps goes to Orc here – if they can sustain with synergies in a group, they become more versatile because they can play around with reg via jewelry. Bloodthirsty+reg or infused+reg while RG and Wood Elf can really only swap out stormfist or move the absorb stam to dw and the dmg enchant to bow for more dmg.

If each race provides about the same dps/sustain in THIS scenario, choosing the race you want widely depends on the unique passives they provide because you can make up for sustain through gear.

Redguard
  • +15 min to buff food
  • 8% cost reduction on weapon skill ultimates – YEP, this is a thing. W/ 15% (sorc) and 8% cost reduction, Ballista costs 139 instead of 175.
  • Higher sustain in combat if using weapon skill as a spammable, lower sustain outside of combat.

Orc
  • 10% inspiration gain
  • +4% healing received
  • 10% sprint speed + 12% sprint cost reduction
  • Balanced between in combat and out of combat regen if you require that 1 sta reg glygh.
  • Minor 380 health return every 4 sec.

Wood Elf
  • -10% fall dmg
  • +20% movement speed (better than sprint speed) for 4 seconds after dodge roll
  • Best sustain due to in and out of combat regen nature of higher sta regen vs reliance of being in combat of RG and Orc.
  • Poison resistance and status effect immunity.
  • 3m + detection range (doubt this will make it through pts if ZOS listens to player feedback)

Final thoughts.
RG actually falls a little behind here imo, I’m not saying they need a buff, it's in a good place. If players understand they have the ability to swap stats within gear to achieve the sustain they need while also looking at how well that sustain functions in actual application, we find RG fits a very specific niche to become fully utilized. This is even more apparent since their sustain is based on being in combat.

If you were any other class, but a stam sorc I’d highly debate switching race because you miss out on 4-5x casts of your spammable in a rotation not having 8% cost reduction as well as class based ultimate options. It’s up to you if you find that worth it.

The 8% cost reduction on ultimate’s while sounding awesome is niche as well. It puts you in a position of wanting to use weapon ultimate’s instead of anything else, but the reality is you have only 3 weapon options and only 1 can be used. Most people use flawless dawnbreaker front bar because 8% wpd is too good to pass. That means in a bow/bow, dw/bow or 2h/bow setup, your only option IS ballista.
  • Templars have Biting Jabs and Empowering Sweep
  • NB have Surprise attack and Incap
  • Wardens have Cutting Dive and Bear
  • DK's have Venomous Claw and Standard of Might
  • Stam sorcs have rending slashes/crushing weapon and Greater Strom Atro

Obviously a lot of people like using Balista, but same can be said about using crushing weapon as a cheap/single target spammable. RG shoehorns you in to a specific playstyle.

My point is, if you fit the specific niche of a weapon spammable and weapon ultimate, RG might be best for you.

I can see how a heavy RG in pvp might actually be pretty strong, given the fact that you're missing the necessary multipliers for sta regen to be very effective and your options for ultimates are more than JUST balista.

If you want a race more versatile for more than just stam DD, Wood Elf and Orc have much more universaly applicable passives and I don't see them far behind RG. Dunmer and Khajiit appear to share that conclusion, even more so because theyr'e now hybrid races, you could swap to mag DD if you wanted to.

My suggestion.
I'd prefer 4-5% cost reduction on all abilities, basically the templar passive. Less shoe horning you in to a specific playstyle while also providing more utility to anyone using RG as a mag character, they rely on class skills more than stam specs, so it makes more sense for versatiliy here too.

If the ultimate reduction had to be dropped for balancing, I'd understand and support it, however I really don't think 4% on everything is too strong and should be considered.
Edited by MashmalloMan on 22 January 2019 21:32
@MashmalloMan - PC NA

PC Beta - 2400+ CP
  • ccmedaddy
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    Has anyone tested if the cost reduction works for Werewolf skills? My guess is no but this game works in mysterious ways sometimes..
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    @Masel or anyone, have you been able to figure out the math behind the 8% cost reduction on weapon ultimates and how it falls within an equation.

    I just don't understand.

    Base cost of balista: 175
    W/ 15% sorc ult cost reduction: 148.75 rounded up to 149
    W/ 15% sorc and 8% RG: 139

    If it's (1 - .15 + 0.8) * 175
    = 134.75 rounded up to 135

    If it's ((1 - .15) * 175) * (1 - .08)
    = 136.85 rounded up to 137

    What am I missing here..
    @MashmalloMan - PC NA

    PC Beta - 2400+ CP
  • olsborg
    olsborg
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    Agree with OP here. RG needs cost red for all stamskill

    PC EU
    PvP only
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    olsborg wrote: »
    Agree with OP here. RG needs cost red for all stamskill

    I actually suggested ALL skills, even if that means dropping ultimates being effected or changing the number to something more balanced. It would be nice if mag classes could find utlity out of the race which was ZOS's focus here.

    They achieved that slightly with "weapon skills" meaning staves too, we shouldn't take away from the progress mag RG's receive from something like that.

    I've seen people interested in playing RG mag pvp builds which sounds pretty unique even if I don't personally find it super useful.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on 22 January 2019 21:33
    @MashmalloMan - PC NA

    PC Beta - 2400+ CP
  • Bloodystab
    Bloodystab
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    Meanwhile Argonian drink potion and watch how useless he is.
  • simeion
    simeion
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    A few things you need to keep in mind.

    Nightblade already had a 15% recovery bonus, the additional cost reduction could cause an overpowered issue.
    Sorcs have additional cost reduction same thing applies.

    Also the Original Poster did not test Dark Elf which has the same WD buff as an orc but higher stam pool. Dark Elf also has no sustain. Over all it is nice seeing people doing some testing.

    Over all I think ZOS brought the races closer in together then they were beside some small changes I like the direction. I would love to see Orc get 1000 health and 750 stam. Woodelf Dodge roll passive is to geared for pvp and like to see it changed to be more pve/pvp neutral. Maybe 124 bonus to damage, does not have to be this but something different.
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    I also think ZOS did a good job here and Im usually a very vocal critic. This is a balance pass, it's to help address power creep, and it was always going to contain nerfs. They also needed to retain some of the uniqueness of each class while also evening them out and for the most part they did this very well. Changes are changes and theres always going to be some yelling. I think people who played Darkelves can be a bit angry because the extra fire damage was unique and that was scrapped which is too bad. Otherwise in terms of raw damage output even Mag DKs will come out around the same/be getting a small buff.
    Edited by Vapirko on 23 January 2019 02:48
  • MashmalloMan
    MashmalloMan
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    simeion wrote: »
    Also the Original Poster did not test Dark Elf which has the same WD buff as an orc but higher stam pool. Dark Elf also has no sustain. Over all it is nice seeing people doing some testing.

    I'd imagine the result would be similar, using orc I needed to use 1 stam reg glygh instead of dmg, the same is probably true for Dark Elf with 2x stam reg or 1x infused stam reg glygh offset by the fact that they have +750 sta vs orc.

    That highlights how versatile the choices can be, I like that. My point was RG feels a bit linear instead of open-ended. If your a NB there is no point in using RG if your looking for reg, the better option is Wood Elf.

    I guess that makes it an interesting choice, but really.. to me.. the only 2 scenario's someone should pick a RG over anything else is if your a stam sorc or if you're a bow/bow user and making that decision gives you a tiny bit more sustain over Wood Elf in combat at the cost of some unique passives with multiple applications accross the game, same goes for Orc or Dunmer.. etc.
    simeion wrote: »
    Nightblade already had a 15% recovery bonus, the additional cost reduction could cause an overpowered issue.
    Sorcs have additional cost reduction same thing applies.

    If 4% cost reduction on all skills was too overpowered you would see more classes using sets like Battlefield Acrobat or Robes of Alteration Mastery which have 6% each. Breton has 7% on all magicka abilities, but they aren't op either.

    NB has 15% mag/sta reg, easy access to 10% mag/sta reg w/ minor buff
    Warden has 12% mag/sta reg
    Sorc has 20% sta, 10% mag reg, 5% sta/mag cost reduction and 15% ult cost reduction
    Templar has 4% sta/mag/ult cost reduction, easy access to 10% mag/sta reg w/ minor buff
    DK 25% cost reduction on poison skills

    Every class has something and the 8% of the current RG passive is only viable competitively on a stam sorc because half their stamina drain is from weapon abilities and they don't have an option for a physical ultimate.

    Even if it was 4% on everything, a NB/Templar would still choose khajiit because of their 10% crit dmg bonuses. The point is anyone could use the 4%, tanks, mag, doesn't matter.

    The easiest solution is to just make it stamina abilities, but that feels like a carbon copy of breton. Make it do less on more abilities and it becomes an interesting race to choose. It wouldn't be BiS for sustain either because of how in combat and out of combat sustain works.

    There is pros and cons to how cost reduction vs regen works.

    Lets say a RG and a Wood Elf get through a 3m test dummy with about the same amount of stamina missing by the end. Same gear. The Wood Elf can use any abilities they want, they will still get that 258 regen while the RG will try to get as much bang for their buck using a weapon spammable and ultimate. Now the RG has to regain that pool back 258 sta regen slower than the Wood Elf.

    Now you could argue the sustain of a RG is more bursty, you can block, roll and sprint cutting off regen, but still get sustain back every weapon ability cast or 5 sec quicker than if you were a Wood Elf.

    My point still stands, I feel the -8% weapon cost feels to specific and classes with more tools in their class kit will see less use out of it.

    Cut that 8% down to 4% on every skill in the game or 6-7 % on just stamina abilities like breton.. less interesting option imo. I like it being more open to different play-styles even if it reduces the amount of stamina cost reduction I gain from it.
    Edited by MashmalloMan on 23 January 2019 06:00
    @MashmalloMan - PC NA

    PC Beta - 2400+ CP
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