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How about a third resource type for block/dodge/break-free/sprint?
MLGProPlayer
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Now that shields are being removed from the game, it puts magicka characters in a tough position. With only base stamina available to them, they cannot actively block/dodge/break-free. Magicka characters were designed by ZOS to use shields, not active mechanics (since those require stamina). This effectively makes magicka characters useless in endgame content.
I agree with the sentiment that shields were far superior to stamina damage mitigation. I wouldn't mind it if magicka characters had to block/dodge/break free too (in fact, I would prefer it). However, combat needs to be redesigned to enable that.
I propose a third resource type for those actions (like in GW2). This would allow magicka characters to block/dodge/break-free/sprint just as much as their stmaina counterparts. Likewise, stamina would get those actions moved to the third resource, freeing up stamina for skill use and improving sustain.
Edited by MLGProPlayer on 23 September 2018 16:37 I agree with the sentiment that shields were far superior to stamina damage mitigation. I wouldn't mind it if magicka characters had to block/dodge/break free too (in fact, I would prefer it). However, combat needs to be redesigned to enable that.
I propose a third resource type for those actions (like in GW2). This would allow magicka characters to block/dodge/break-free/sprint just as much as their stmaina counterparts. Likewise, stamina would get those actions moved to the third resource, freeing up stamina for skill use and improving sustain.
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MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No. That's the primary difference between magicka and stamina builds.
But ZOS has said that they want both magicka and stamina to use active damage mitigation, hence why they're removing shields from the game.
For that reason, there needs to be a way for both specs to use these actions. A poster in another thread suggested making them use magicka via a light arnour passive, which also works.Edited by MLGProPlayer on 23 September 2018 18:010 -
chesspilgrim✭✭i’m not trying to be sarcastic nor a55holish, just trying to understand your point.
isn’t that third resource stamina?3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Then ZOS would have to refigure the cost of stamina skills, which generally cost less because stamina is also used for roll dodge/block/sprint.1 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »But ZOS has said that they want both magicka and stamina to use active damage mitigation, hence why they're removing shields from the game.
Using a slippery slope fallacy to bolster your argument isn't going to win a lot of forum-goer support.
Shields are not being removed from the game.
Only CERTAIN shields (Steadfast Ward, Annulment) are being changed to a one second cast time.
Sure, my Sorc doesn't like the changes (just like every other player that has one).
But, at least I've been in PTS trying to change things around and prepare for what's coming.
Edited by Taleof2Cities on 24 September 2018 02:232 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭chesspilgrim wrote: »i’m not trying to be sarcastic nor a55holish, just trying to understand your point.
isn’t that third resource stamina?
Stamina and magicka would just be used for ability casting. There would be a third bar for dodging/blocking/sprinting/breaking free. This would allow both magicka and stamina characters to use these actions.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »But ZOS has said that they want both magicka and stamina to use active damage mitigation, hence why they're removing shields from the game.
Using a slippery slope fallacy to bolster your argument isn't going to win a lot of forum-goer support.
Shields are not being removed from the game.
Only CERTAIN shields (Steadfast Ward, Annulment) are being changed to a one second cast time.
Sure, my Sorc doesn't like the changes (just like every other player that has one).
But, at least I've been in PTS trying to change things around and prepare for what's coming.
The only way to prepare for the upcoming changes is to delete your magicka characters.
With the Steadfast Ward and Annulment nerfs, magicka classes have no way to mitigate incoming damage anymore. ZOS wants everyone to block/dodge in order to mitigate damage. However, the game would need to be redesigned for magicka characters to be able to perform those actions. Right now, a magicka class can only dodge twice before running out of stamina and dying.Edited by MLGProPlayer on 24 September 2018 03:561 -
chesspilgrim✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »chesspilgrim wrote: »i’m not trying to be sarcastic nor a55holish, just trying to understand your point.
isn’t that third resource stamina?
Stamina and magicka would just be used for ability casting. There would be a third bar for dodging/blocking/sprinting/breaking free. This would allow both magicka and stamina characters to use these actions.
i’ve been playing a magplar healer in battlegrounds (without cp) for a while now. i’m no superstar, but i can say that it is possible to play a magicka class without shields. it just isn’t easy. i had to learn (the hard way) how to stay alive with my 17k stamina, and with all those cc’s, without any magic shields. because, the light armor skill line shields weren’t even worth a space on my bar. and, i don’t slot a shield when i heal pve.
my point is that many have already been playing under the conditions that you seem to be saying are not possible to play under. for this reason, i do not think the devs will see a reason to make the change you are suggesting. i know first hand that it is tough, and might require some play style adjustments, but it is still possible to enjoy the game.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭chesspilgrim wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »chesspilgrim wrote: »i’m not trying to be sarcastic nor a55holish, just trying to understand your point.
isn’t that third resource stamina?
Stamina and magicka would just be used for ability casting. There would be a third bar for dodging/blocking/sprinting/breaking free. This would allow both magicka and stamina characters to use these actions.
i’ve been playing a magplar healer in battlegrounds (without cp) for a while now. i’m no superstar, but i can say that it is possible to play a magicka class without shields. it just isn’t easy. i had to learn (the hard way) how to stay alive with my 17k stamina, and with all those cc’s, without any magic shields. because, the light armor skill line shields weren’t even worth a space on my bar. and, i don’t slot a shield when i heal pve.
my point is that many have already been playing under the conditions that you seem to be saying are not possible to play under. for this reason, i do not think the devs will see a reason to make the change you are suggesting. i know first hand that it is tough, and might require some play style adjustments, but it is still possible to enjoy the game.
Playing under those conditions =/= excelling under them.
Magicka characters without shields are useless in endgame PvE. Stamina will have higher damage and survivability. This is a reverse of the situation we had for a while where stamina was comparatively useless (although never this useless). ZOS has never been able to balance the two specs.
This change also raises the skill floor. A bunch of content becomes inaccessible to players who can't play under these conditions.Edited by MLGProPlayer on 24 September 2018 05:110 -
Mystrius_Archaion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Block is cheap enough to use. If you don't block even with zero points in stamina then you're just asking to be flattened.
I agree that break-free and roll-dodge are too expensive, but they're not unusable strategically. Often, you can avoid needing to roll in pve by sidestepping a cone red area, which is not hard in close range since kiting doesn't really work in pve anyway.
As for break-free, you can actually block most things, in pve, that would CC you so you don't get CCed and can spend a lot less stamina to do so.
It's not as bad as you think in PVE even without shields.
PVP is a different story because CCs are overloaded.0 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dodge Roll, Block, and Sprint actually cause a lot of balance issues in PvP.
Not only do they not require a bar slot but also not an adjustment to increased damage in a CP environment. Nevertheless, all 3 can be buffed in the CP trees which makes them inherently unbalanced.
The fact that all 3 of these "free" tools are primarily available to stamina builds makes this even more unbalanced. And given how many stamina abilities are nowadays available in the class skill lines diminishing the range of abilties and builds available to magicka builds it is appropriate that at least one of these "free" tools is magicka based.
The fact that all 3 are stamina based also forces all magicka builds to essentially run hybrid builds in pvp. The same is not true stamina builds. Combined with their relativistic (%-based) mitigateion nature, this allows the stamina builds to stack much higher into weapon damage, thus having them easily pull numbers that mag builds can only dream of.0 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dodge Roll, Block, and Sprint actually cause a lot of balance issues in PvP.
Not only do they not require a bar slot but also not an adjustment to increased damage in a CP environment. Nevertheless, all 3 can be buffed in the CP trees which makes them inherently unbalanced.
The fact that all 3 of these "free" tools are primarily available to stamina builds makes this even more unbalanced. And given how many stamina abilities are nowadays available in the class skill lines diminishing the range of abilties and builds available to magicka builds it is appropriate that at least one of these "free" tools is magicka based.
The fact that all 3 are stamina based also forces all magicka builds to essentially run hybrid builds in pvp. The same is not true stamina builds. Combined with their relativistic (%-based) mitigateion nature, this allows the stamina builds to stack much higher into weapon damage, thus having them easily pull numbers that mag builds can only dream of.
Good StamNBs stack more magicka for cloak and fear than most magicka build's stamina.
Magicka builds 5k more penetration, which is more DPS than 12% extra weapon damage. Also, magicka can stack be way more than stamina.
Magicka DPS hits far higher AoE numbers than stamina.
Don't state half facts.Edited by susmitds on 24 September 2018 08:190 -
Galarthor✭✭✭✭✭
✭Good StamNBs stack more magicka for cloak and fear than most magicka build's stamina.
Magicka builds 5k more penetration, which is more DPS than 12% extra weapon damage. Also, magicka can stack be way more than stamina.
Magicka DPS hits far higher AoE numbers than stamina.
Don't state half facts.
Stamina NBs stacking into magicka is by choice to exploit a skill not meant to be used by you in order to achieve effectively OP perma dodging.
Being able to Break-free and block on the other hand is necessary and not a skill players choose.
As for penetration vs weapon damage: that depends on the numbers - i.e. how high is your base weapon damage and your penetration AND how high are your enemies (residual) resistences.
What good is stacking max resources?
Damage is certainly lower. Total resource pool does not need to be as high if your damage is high enough to kill people before you run out of resources ... and then there is also always the cost reduction / regen.
The only reason why it makes sense to stack into resources over weapon damage is b/c your defensive abilities scale with it and are too weak if you stack max weapon damage ... oh wait, stamina builds don't have that issue.Edited by Galarthor on 24 September 2018 09:480
