LegacyDM wrote: »

Stand next to the shade. Problem solved.

Dionysus wrote: »

You don't have a right to a kill if the best escapist class in the game focuses 100% on escaping you.

NBrookus wrote: »

When you see a high mobility class like stam sorc or stamblade run into a tower or around a bunch of rocks and trees, you need to hear in your head "Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch." If you waste resources trying to chase one around on their ideal turf, you are giving them a large advantage.

The counter is to force them to engage you on terms better suited to you.

Shade rewards strong gameplay and is a lot of fun and doesn't instagib people; it's a great skill.

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Hold up. It's not that you wanna counter shade you wanna counter shade at a resource. Take the resource and wait for the nb to try to take it back. Going into the tower won't get them the resource back.

You've gotten good suggestions as to counters. Camping, mines, traps, etc. Which class are you playing?

HankTwo wrote: »

Basically it becomes a game of patience which is pretty annoying and lame in a game like this (because there are no ways for me to get rid of a competent NB in a 1v1 situation like this).

Sharee wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

When you see a high mobility class like stam sorc or stamblade run into a tower or around a bunch of rocks and trees, you need to hear in your head "Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch." If you waste resources trying to chase one around on their ideal turf, you are giving them a large advantage.

The counter is to force them to engage you on terms better suited to you.

Shade rewards strong gameplay and is a lot of fun and doesn't instagib people; it's a great skill.

Metemsycosis wrote: »

Hold up. It's not that you wanna counter shade you wanna counter shade at a resource. Take the resource and wait for the nb to try to take it back. Going into the tower won't get them the resource back.

You've gotten good suggestions as to counters. Camping, mines, traps, etc. Which class are you playing?

Just to make clear what the problem is:

NB tries to cap resource, I engage at the flag, NB runs into tower --> 'tower game begins' (I explained this in post #56) Under these circumstances the NB is basically unkillable if he/she plays it safe because of Shadow Image teleportation.

Now I got 2 options: keep on fighting in the tower forever or go down to the flag. If I chose the latter option such NB players usually try to bait into the tower again. If I don't follow the NB this can also go on forever (me at the flag, NB baiting from tower). Basically it becomes a game of patience which is pretty annoying and lame in a game like this (because there are no ways for me to get rid of a competent NB in a 1v1 situation like this).

This leaves me to 2 last options:
a) ignore the NB and move on, which basically lets him cap the resource for free
b) get other players to Xv1 him down which is pretty dissatisfying.

I main a stam DK as mentioned above and I tried multiple things to kill such a NB like trap beast, caltrops or eruption on the shade as well as speed pots to get there faster after they teleport but these options simply don't work (too low damage and stamblades utilize snare/root immunity; even with major expedition it takes 7 to 9 seconds to reach the top of the tower which is enough time for them to heal).

The only thing that works is CC the NB and kill him before he can recover. The only way i ever achieved this on a stam DK was - drink a detect pot, turn into a werewolf, and kill the slippery f-er before he can recover from the fear. Low success rate, but better than nothing.

NBrookus wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Basically it becomes a game of patience which is pretty annoying and lame in a game like this (because there are no ways for me to get rid of a competent NB in a 1v1 situation like this).

I understand the situation, and the frustration, but this is pretty much how NB plays. Most of the time NBs can successfully disengage from combat and you can't.

Making people chase you around a tower is fun... chasing someone around a tower is not.

ItsNebula wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Play mWarden, place Frozen Device on shade, profit

But yeah, it's an annoying skill to fight against imo

I honestly didn't know of this skill so thanks for the input. Seems like wardens can counter it then. But what about other classes?

"What about the other classes"

.....Thats what makes a good MMO. Each class has a counter to others and same with a weakness. If EVERY class could counter a NB, then there would be no reason to play other classes than what classes has the best tools for pvp.

Magden is already really, really bad now. So if you REALLY wanna counter ONE skill for ONE class, this makes people wanna go Magden. The class already only has like 1-2 good players on it, rest being bad tanks lmfao

HankTwo wrote: »

Vietfox wrote: »

If you play as a NB while fighting another NB just place your shade next to the other shade and teleport when the enemy does.

You don't say? xP
This is obviously about counters accessible to other classes.

Myux wrote: »

shadow image takes a *** of prior planning and the ability to predict what the zerg horde is gonna do (which to be fair isnt hard), if youre not a skilled player and you wanna kill someone who knows how to avoid you, it means you deserve to get juked. there is not a single good reason why shadow image should be changed. learn to bait them into going too hard into you then counter burst them.

and quit chasing solo NBs around for miles for christs sake. i will never understand why you people never have anything better to do with your time.

and about your "i dont wanna let them take a resource " scenario, just sit on the flag. hot damn. if they TP away then they aint on the flag. this isnt rocket science. im genuinely baffled by how you consider this an issue that needs nerfing.

scrobey wrote: »

If they want to run, let them.

DDuke wrote: »

Play mWarden...

raasdal wrote: »

I think the counter is to be aware of where the NB is putting his shade, and then anticipating the teleport.

HankTwo wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This move doesn't need a nerf. I've seen many, many Nightblades use this, and there has yet been one that's been able to escape me. Proper usage of this skill seems to be for the more talented of the Nightblades. I don't believe punishing good foresight is a good idea.

Interesting, so you were able to kill NBs using shade on something like the resource towers reliable while playing another class? Can you tell us which class and what general setup (you don't have to tell the build)?

Undefwun wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

[

Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.

Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.

Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.

Shade is our counter to massive dmg while wearing light. So you want a counter to the counter

We can’t face tank massive offence. I can spam ward once or twice, till I can cloak or port.

I have to say it's usually stamblades that utilize this skill to the extreme since magblades are still affected by snares and roots.

The_Outsider wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.


About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.

Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.

I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.

So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?

What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.

@HankTwo
Look at it this way. You have to assign multiple conditions for this to even work in the NBs favor at all: Shade is more complex to use than most abilities, he has to find adequate terrain advantages (towers, large rocks, ect), he has to have the snare removal to get away from you, he has to have the mit/healing to survive your damage long enough to gain LoS...

If a player is able to accomplish all that against an opponent, maybe he/she should have an advantage in the terrain of their choosing?

I could wrap my brain around reducing the range of the shade 1 or 2 meters, but pls let's not remove functionality from the ability. IMO this falls under the 'super fun and unique gameplay mechanic' umbrella.

I agree 100% that this skill is not a problem concerning 90-95% of the NBs around (just like block was never a problem concerning most players). It is not some skill that just magically makes you a better player when using it.

However, I still believe that when mastered and the conditions are met it's just too strong. You can't increase the effectiveness of other skills to such an extend by just learning when/how to use them. It can basically be something like ignore all additional incoming damage while doing no damage yourself for some time.

About the last part: Yeah I can see that. Maybe a new skill that would let you teleport a single time to an enemy when he/she uses a skill like shadow image/streak/frozen retreat could work?

HankTwo wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This move doesn't need a nerf. I've seen many, many Nightblades use this, and there has yet been one that's been able to escape me. Proper usage of this skill seems to be for the more talented of the Nightblades. I don't believe punishing good foresight is a good idea.

Interesting, so you were able to kill NBs using shade on something like the resource towers reliable while playing another class? Can you tell us which class and what general setup (you don't have to tell the build)?

Undefwun wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

[

Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.

Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.

Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.

Shade is our counter to massive dmg while wearing light. So you want a counter to the counter

We can’t face tank massive offence. I can spam ward once or twice, till I can cloak or port.

I have to say it's usually stamblades that utilize this skill to the extreme since magblades are still affected by snares and roots.

The_Outsider wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.


About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.

Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.

I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.

So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?

What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.

@HankTwo
Look at it this way. You have to assign multiple conditions for this to even work in the NBs favor at all: Shade is more complex to use than most abilities, he has to find adequate terrain advantages (towers, large rocks, ect), he has to have the snare removal to get away from you, he has to have the mit/healing to survive your damage long enough to gain LoS...

If a player is able to accomplish all that against an opponent, maybe he/she should have an advantage in the terrain of their choosing?

I could wrap my brain around reducing the range of the shade 1 or 2 meters, but pls let's not remove functionality from the ability. IMO this falls under the 'super fun and unique gameplay mechanic' umbrella.

I agree 100% that this skill is not a problem concerning 90-95% of the NBs around (just like block was never a problem concerning most players). It is not some skill that just magically makes you a better player when using it.

However, I still believe that when mastered and the conditions are met it's just too strong. You can't increase the effectiveness of other skills to such an extend by just learning when/how to use them. It can basically be something like ignore all additional incoming damage while doing no damage yourself for some time.

About the last part: Yeah I can see that. Maybe a new skill that would let you teleport a single time to an enemy when he/she uses a skill like shadow image/streak/frozen retreat could work?

Killset wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This move doesn't need a nerf. I've seen many, many Nightblades use this, and there has yet been one that's been able to escape me. Proper usage of this skill seems to be for the more talented of the Nightblades. I don't believe punishing good foresight is a good idea.

Interesting, so you were able to kill NBs using shade on something like the resource towers reliable while playing another class? Can you tell us which class and what general setup (you don't have to tell the build)?

Undefwun wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

[

Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.

Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.

Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.

Shade is our counter to massive dmg while wearing light. So you want a counter to the counter

We can’t face tank massive offence. I can spam ward once or twice, till I can cloak or port.

I have to say it's usually stamblades that utilize this skill to the extreme since magblades are still affected by snares and roots.

The_Outsider wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.


About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.

Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.

I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.

So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?

What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.

@HankTwo
Look at it this way. You have to assign multiple conditions for this to even work in the NBs favor at all: Shade is more complex to use than most abilities, he has to find adequate terrain advantages (towers, large rocks, ect), he has to have the snare removal to get away from you, he has to have the mit/healing to survive your damage long enough to gain LoS...

If a player is able to accomplish all that against an opponent, maybe he/she should have an advantage in the terrain of their choosing?

I could wrap my brain around reducing the range of the shade 1 or 2 meters, but pls let's not remove functionality from the ability. IMO this falls under the 'super fun and unique gameplay mechanic' umbrella.

I agree 100% that this skill is not a problem concerning 90-95% of the NBs around (just like block was never a problem concerning most players). It is not some skill that just magically makes you a better player when using it.

However, I still believe that when mastered and the conditions are met it's just too strong. You can't increase the effectiveness of other skills to such an extend by just learning when/how to use them. It can basically be something like ignore all additional incoming damage while doing no damage yourself for some time.

About the last part: Yeah I can see that. Maybe a new skill that would let you teleport a single time to an enemy when he/she uses a skill like shadow image/streak/frozen retreat could work?

HankTwo wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

This move doesn't need a nerf. I've seen many, many Nightblades use this, and there has yet been one that's been able to escape me. Proper usage of this skill seems to be for the more talented of the Nightblades. I don't believe punishing good foresight is a good idea.

Interesting, so you were able to kill NBs using shade on something like the resource towers reliable while playing another class? Can you tell us which class and what general setup (you don't have to tell the build)?

Undefwun wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

[

Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.

Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.

Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.

Shade is our counter to massive dmg while wearing light. So you want a counter to the counter

We can’t face tank massive offence. I can spam ward once or twice, till I can cloak or port.

I have to say it's usually stamblades that utilize this skill to the extreme since magblades are still affected by snares and roots.

The_Outsider wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Killset wrote: »

HankTwo wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

I don't know if you are trolling or serious.

First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'

You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.

I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.


About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.

Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.

I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.

So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?

What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.

@HankTwo
Look at it this way. You have to assign multiple conditions for this to even work in the NBs favor at all: Shade is more complex to use than most abilities, he has to find adequate terrain advantages (towers, large rocks, ect), he has to have the snare removal to get away from you, he has to have the mit/healing to survive your damage long enough to gain LoS...

If a player is able to accomplish all that against an opponent, maybe he/she should have an advantage in the terrain of their choosing?

I could wrap my brain around reducing the range of the shade 1 or 2 meters, but pls let's not remove functionality from the ability. IMO this falls under the 'super fun and unique gameplay mechanic' umbrella.

I agree 100% that this skill is not a problem concerning 90-95% of the NBs around (just like block was never a problem concerning most players). It is not some skill that just magically makes you a better player when using it.

However, I still believe that when mastered and the conditions are met it's just too strong. You can't increase the effectiveness of other skills to such an extend by just learning when/how to use them. It can basically be something like ignore all additional incoming damage while doing no damage yourself for some time.

About the last part: Yeah I can see that. Maybe a new skill that would let you teleport a single time to an enemy when he/she uses a skill like shadow image/streak/frozen retreat could work?

This whole conversation is ridiculous. You say that Shade isn’t a problem with 90-95% of the NB’s you face but for 5-10%, it’s too strong and therefore needs nerfed lol?

Tryxus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Play mWarden...

But srsly, don't tell ZOS we still have a good skill vs Nightblades. They will nerf it

Yeah, I know... I'm not trying to say mWarden is by any means good vs NB.

They're practically target dummies for my bowblade, so easily kited when you can avoid all their attacks (I don't even run Shadow Image usually).

No undodgeable damage or cloak counters besides shalks (that no longer stun to enable other burst to land)... rip.

Heh And to think that in our first incarnation we were the perfect counter to StamBlades. How far have we fallen...

HankTwo wrote: »

Did you test if frozen gate now works while there is no direct line of sight or a large vertical distance to traverse? Sharee suggested that in the past it didn't.

The portal does require a clean line of sight. Vertical pulling is a bit finicky: sometimes I'm able to pull a player down from a high rock, and other times I'm not.