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Counters to Shadow Image teleportation?
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HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭The hardest skill to learn in this game is when to walk away. If a nb is going to keep using cloak and shade and will only engage when I walk away then they are not worth my time fighting or chasing down. I'll do a funny emote or lay down the bags and just walk away, that's my counter.
So I'll just let them take the resource then?
PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK1 -
RighteousBacon✭✭✭✭
I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.I don't know if you are trolling or serious.
First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'
You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.
I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.
About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.
Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.
So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?
What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.
Dude yes, if a nightblade isn’t gonna give you the chance to burst him, he probably won’t be able to kill you either.
Let’s think a bit harder about this one...how can I make this nightblade stay in the fight a little longer?
Answer: bait him with your sweet sweet low health.
You know that feeling when you’ve got an enemy in execute range and you want nothing more but to kill him and move on? Use that against him. Get you ult ready, get a health pot or something ready, let him get you a little low and make you cc immune, then smack him into the shadow realm!
It works and it feels amazing!Edited by RighteousBacon on 13 July 2018 18:292 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »If you would complain about the synergie of Cloak and frontloaded burst I would agree, but nerfing a defensive and utility skill? Nope.
Why are all classes allowed to force a draw when a "competent" player is playing them but Nbs aren't? Good luck killing anything running around rocks and trees when you are alone.
You can counter normal kiting with your own speed buffs (but I would agree that with the swift jewelry right now it can also be problematic). Additionally, running around obstacles its not nearly as effective as to teleport through a set of walls and staircases in an instant.
Defensive skills/mechanics were already sometimes nerfed in the past like perma-blocking DKs and sorc streak. I don't know if you agree with these nerfs but many seem to think they were reasonable.Edited by HankTwo on 13 July 2018 18:36PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭This move doesn't need a nerf. I've seen many, many Nightblades use this, and there has yet been one that's been able to escape me. Proper usage of this skill seems to be for the more talented of the Nightblades. I don't believe punishing good foresight is a good idea.3 -
Undefwun✭✭✭✭✭[
Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.
Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.
Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.
Shade is our counter to massive dmg while wearing light. So you want a counter to the counter
We can’t face tank massive offence. I can spam ward once or twice, till I can cloak or port.
Drank Sinatra Sr - PvP Magblade - DC
Juggathot - PvP Mag Sorc - DC
Jedi Mind Crits - PvP A-Hole Bowblade - DC
Dollar Store Thor - PvP Stamplar - DC
The Bone Sumpremacy - baby Stamcro - DC
Wârden Freeman - PvP Stamden - DC (on hold)
Lauryn Heal - PvE Magplar DPS - DC
Lil Orc Chop - PvP Stam Sorc - EP
Hamuel L Jackson - PvE DPS & PvP Stam DK - EP
Chandler Bling - PvP Magden - EP
Mahalia Lightborn - exiled crafting toon - cos you know, she's AD0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I got my first 1vx using shadow image. Players try to stick together when getting picked off 1 by 1 but if they do that, they cant cover the NB and the shadow image. Have to say though; I had barely used it before that because its kind of hard when you first pick it up when you dont have that sort of utility with other classes. Streak, if you use it while already at range on the ranged class that sorc is, is similar. If they are already at 30m and streak away, your gap closer wont work, and its easier to use as you dont have to plan a place for it in advance
Wish my stamplar had a utility like that though.Edited by technohic on 14 July 2018 03:270 -
kadar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
@HankTwo
I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.I don't know if you are trolling or serious.
First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'
You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.
I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.
About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.
Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.
So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?
What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.
Look at it this way. You have to assign multiple conditions for this to even work in the NBs favor at all: Shade is more complex to use than most abilities, he has to find adequate terrain advantages (towers, large rocks, ect), he has to have the snare removal to get away from you, he has to have the mit/healing to survive your damage long enough to gain LoS...
If a player is able to accomplish all that against an opponent, maybe he/she should have an advantage in the terrain of their choosing?
I could wrap my brain around reducing the range of the shade 1 or 2 meters, but pls let's not remove functionality from the ability. IMO this falls under the 'super fun and unique gameplay mechanic' umbrella.2 -
Lucky28✭✭✭✭✭
✭seriously... just wow....
just take all skills.. all armor and weapons and throw em out, give everyone exact same stats and slap box each other.. bet ppl will find something to cry about.
I find many skills annoying on other classes. (I mainly play magblade and stam sorc for reference). Can we get rid of those too please?
I'm sure whatever class you play has abilities I don't have... and that's the fun part of the game.
Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.
Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.
Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.
the fact that shade is the only escape in the game that requires you to use your brain if you want to use it effectively and if you're fighting an NB who is using Shade you have to use your brain to counter it. shade is fine.Invictus4 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭This move doesn't need a nerf. I've seen many, many Nightblades use this, and there has yet been one that's been able to escape me. Proper usage of this skill seems to be for the more talented of the Nightblades. I don't believe punishing good foresight is a good idea.
Interesting, so you were able to kill NBs using shade on something like the resource towers reliable while playing another class? Can you tell us which class and what general setup (you don't have to tell the build)?[
Seriously you don't have to be so defensive about it, you know? I just wanna have a discussion here.
Just look at how other defense/escape mechanics have well working counter play (again: streak --> gap closer, cloak --> detect pots/AOEs and so on). So, what is the counter to NBs using Shadow Image teleportation to disengage a fight and heal up? If they teleport with a reasonable amount of health left (which competent NBs will do) then trap/mine skills or a single projectile following the NB through the walls won't do enough damage to kill the player.
Even the magsorc earlier which obviously uses a lot of delayed damage skills told me that it's usually a hopeless fight for him and only with a lucky shot he was able to kill such a NB player.
Shade is our counter to massive dmg while wearing light. So you want a counter to the counter
We can’t face tank massive offence. I can spam ward once or twice, till I can cloak or port.
I have to say it's usually stamblades that utilize this skill to the extreme since magblades are still affected by snares and roots.The_Outsider wrote: »
@HankTwo
I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.I don't know if you are trolling or serious.
First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'
You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.
I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.
About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.
Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.
So, what's your take on this? Should I just give up fighting competent NBs when objects are around because I will never get the kill anyway even though I could overpower them on an open field/without shade?
What's the solution then, calling other players and Xv1 him/her down? Seems pretty disappointing to met to be honest.
Look at it this way. You have to assign multiple conditions for this to even work in the NBs favor at all: Shade is more complex to use than most abilities, he has to find adequate terrain advantages (towers, large rocks, ect), he has to have the snare removal to get away from you, he has to have the mit/healing to survive your damage long enough to gain LoS...
If a player is able to accomplish all that against an opponent, maybe he/she should have an advantage in the terrain of their choosing?
I could wrap my brain around reducing the range of the shade 1 or 2 meters, but pls let's not remove functionality from the ability. IMO this falls under the 'super fun and unique gameplay mechanic' umbrella.
I agree 100% that this skill is not a problem concerning 90-95% of the NBs around (just like block was never a problem concerning most players). It is not some skill that just magically makes you a better player when using it.
However, I still believe that when mastered and the conditions are met it's just too strong. You can't increase the effectiveness of other skills to such an extend by just learning when/how to use them. It can basically be something like ignore all additional incoming damage while doing no damage yourself for some time.
About the last part: Yeah I can see that. Maybe a new skill that would let you teleport a single time to an enemy when he/she uses a skill like shadow image/streak/frozen retreat could work?Edited by HankTwo on 14 July 2018 12:00PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK1 -
Vietfox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭If you play as a NB while fighting another NB just place your shade next to the other shade and teleport when the enemy does.0 -
Undefwun✭✭✭✭✭That last idea is horrible
My biggest hate DK fossilize. Requires break free then dodge roll to get away. Cos it’s hard followed by soft cc. While he is dropping 4-6k whips.
Now if I manage to get out of alive that you want them to be able to insta follow. Where is the balance in that? Never mind to fight a DK I can only use half my toolkit cos wings.
I am all for balance like fix buggy break free from rune cage and incap (I use both) but don’t mess with stuff that ain’t broke.
Annoying doesn’t mean broken. It’s the paper scissor rock formula. You can beat my ass melee but if I slip away too bad.
Like Templar is hard counter to my bleed sorc. I can’t just ask to have breath and their built in purge nerfed cos it ruins my combo. I gotta deal with. Either risk it hope they mess up or avoid them.
Drank Sinatra Sr - PvP Magblade - DC
Juggathot - PvP Mag Sorc - DC
Jedi Mind Crits - PvP A-Hole Bowblade - DC
Dollar Store Thor - PvP Stamplar - DC
The Bone Sumpremacy - baby Stamcro - DC
Wârden Freeman - PvP Stamden - DC (on hold)
Lauryn Heal - PvE Magplar DPS - DC
Lil Orc Chop - PvP Stam Sorc - EP
Hamuel L Jackson - PvE DPS & PvP Stam DK - EP
Chandler Bling - PvP Magden - EP
Mahalia Lightborn - exiled crafting toon - cos you know, she's AD1 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭That last idea is horrible
My biggest hate DK fossilize. Requires break free then dodge roll to get away. Cos it’s hard followed by soft cc. While he is dropping 4-6k whips.
Now if I manage to get out of alive that you want them to be able to insta follow. Where is the balance in that? Never mind to fight a DK I can only use half my toolkit cos wings.
I am all for balance like fix buggy break free from rune cage and incap (I use both) but don’t mess with stuff that ain’t broke.
Annoying doesn’t mean broken. It’s the paper scissor rock formula. You can beat my ass melee but if I slip away too bad.
Like Templar is hard counter to my bleed sorc. I can’t just ask to have breath and their built in purge nerfed cos it ruins my combo. I gotta deal with. Either risk it hope they mess up or avoid them.
Fair enough that you don't like the suggestions. Maybe I should have made it more clear that the tactic of running around something like the towers and using shadow image to reset the fight whenever they want is more of a stamblade thing.
However, with Templar it's the other way around. It counters one single setup (DOT builds) while Shadow Image can potentially be a counter to all other classes in the game.
I mean people here say use skills like trap beast while I already wrote right at the beginning that it doesn't work (I tested it, not enough damage and the root is useless because of forward momentum).PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
Undefwun✭✭✭✭✭My point was shade is THE COUNTER. You are still talking about a counter to the counter.
I don't know what you play, but for some reason you think NBs need to die to you.
Are you getting killed because of shade?
Or NBs are escaping your onslaught and it's frustrating?
Unless you are getting absolutely deleted because of shade there is no real case.
Someone escaping deserved 'death' is not enough to call for a negation of our counter.Drank Sinatra Sr - PvP Magblade - DC
Juggathot - PvP Mag Sorc - DC
Jedi Mind Crits - PvP A-Hole Bowblade - DC
Dollar Store Thor - PvP Stamplar - DC
The Bone Sumpremacy - baby Stamcro - DC
Wârden Freeman - PvP Stamden - DC (on hold)
Lauryn Heal - PvE Magplar DPS - DC
Lil Orc Chop - PvP Stam Sorc - EP
Hamuel L Jackson - PvE DPS & PvP Stam DK - EP
Chandler Bling - PvP Magden - EP
Mahalia Lightborn - exiled crafting toon - cos you know, she's AD1 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭My point was shade is THE COUNTER. You are still talking about a counter to the counter.
I don't know what you play, but for some reason you think NBs need to die to you.
Are you getting killed because of shade?
Or NBs are escaping your onslaught and it's frustrating?
Unless you are getting absolutely deleted because of shade there is no real case.
Someone escaping deserved 'death' is not enough to call for a negation of our counter.
So streak spam and perma-blocking was never OP either because it couldn't kill another player? Just because its a defensive move doesn't mean it can't be overperforming under certain conditions.
Problem with Shadow Image is that you have to sacrifice just a single skill slot, so in other words you can still have a build with very high damage compared to an 'unkillable' tank.
Imagine the new keep recall stones would work during fights. With your argumentation they wouldn't be a problem either (I know it's an extreme example but the argumentation is the same).Edited by HankTwo on 14 July 2018 15:49PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK2 -
Dionysus✭✭✭This is a class defining skill, which puts the "night" in Nightblades, i.e. elusiveness as their primary defensive mechanism (compared to sorc shields, templar healing, med armor rolling) and should in no way be nerfed.
You don't have a right to a kill if the best escapist class in the game focuses 100% on escaping you.Wraith Maker | Magicka Nightblade (PVP / PVE)
Sorceress | Magicka Sorcerer (PVP)4 -
Undefwun✭✭✭✭✭
So streak spam and perma-blocking was never OP either because it couldn't kill another player? Just because its a defensive move doesn't mean it can't be overperforming under certain conditions.
Problem with Shadow Image is that you have to sacrifice just a single skill slot, so in other words you can still have a build with very high damage compared to an 'unkillable' tank.
Imagine the new keep recall stones would work during fights. With your argumentation they wouldn't be a problem either (I know it's an extreme example but the argumentation is the same).
If ppl wanna port out mid fight to the other end of the map? Let em...
I miss forward camps you could blood port to... so yeah
So fossilize is ok? Double CC? Just for example? How bout eclipse? I hit myself because of it. Soul Assault cheese? Spam Cheese? Wearing sloads, dropping caltrops and spamming light attacks to proc it? I can keep going with cheap harmful tactics flops use to 'win'.
Perma blocking on it's own is no issue. Guy is a sponge. It's that one guy is taking all the heat while his high dps buddies are picking off the nublets beating on him. Or that it BGs you can't take the flag back because a perma block tank can defend it that long to rack up points to win the map. NB bailing out to where ever has no actual effect. Same with streak.. that dude is out of there and has no effect except not dying.
What's your class btw, just so I can give specific rebuttals...
IMO let this thread go quietly into the night cos you are so barking up the wrong tree...Drank Sinatra Sr - PvP Magblade - DC
Juggathot - PvP Mag Sorc - DC
Jedi Mind Crits - PvP A-Hole Bowblade - DC
Dollar Store Thor - PvP Stamplar - DC
The Bone Sumpremacy - baby Stamcro - DC
Wârden Freeman - PvP Stamden - DC (on hold)
Lauryn Heal - PvE Magplar DPS - DC
Lil Orc Chop - PvP Stam Sorc - EP
Hamuel L Jackson - PvE DPS & PvP Stam DK - EP
Chandler Bling - PvP Magden - EP
Mahalia Lightborn - exiled crafting toon - cos you know, she's AD2 -
Leandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.
QFE.
/threadEdited by Leandor on 14 July 2018 16:120 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭
So streak spam and perma-blocking was never OP either because it couldn't kill another player? Just because its a defensive move doesn't mean it can't be overperforming under certain conditions.
Problem with Shadow Image is that you have to sacrifice just a single skill slot, so in other words you can still have a build with very high damage compared to an 'unkillable' tank.
Imagine the new keep recall stones would work during fights. With your argumentation they wouldn't be a problem either (I know it's an extreme example but the argumentation is the same).
If ppl wanna port out mid fight to the other end of the map? Let em...
I miss forward camps you could blood port to... so yeah
So fossilize is ok? Double CC? Just for example? How bout eclipse? I hit myself because of it. Soul Assault cheese? Spam Cheese? Wearing sloads, dropping caltrops and spamming light attacks to proc it? I can keep going with cheap harmful tactics flops use to 'win'.
Perma blocking on it's own is no issue. Guy is a sponge. It's that one guy is taking all the heat while his high dps buddies are picking off the nublets beating on him. Or that it BGs you can't take the flag back because a perma block tank can defend it that long to rack up points to win the map. NB bailing out to where ever has no actual effect. Same with streak.. that dude is out of there and has no effect except not dying.
What's your class btw, just so I can give specific rebuttals...
IMO let this thread go quietly into the night cos you are so barking up the wrong tree...
We have to agree to disagree then. In my opinion defensive moves can definitely be OP but I don't think I can change your mind on that. If you think stuff like fossilize is OP then you should maybe make a thread about it so it can be debated there, whataboutism won't improve this discussion in any way.
I main stam DK.
Edited by HankTwo on 14 July 2018 16:20PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
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I think everyone is missing the actual point. You feel you are entitled to “secure the kill against a competent NB player.” You are not. There are a lot of powerful escape mechanics in this game and I for one am glad for it. PvP would suck if death were a forgone conclusion the split second a bigger group, better player, better build, whatever, layed eyes on you.I don't know if you are trolling or serious.
First of all, the new Psijic ultimate has a similar (not the 'same' ... just 'similar') functionality to the teleport shade. You can jump off walls (and teleport back), you can play 'hide-and-seek', you can LOS, etc. Yes, it's an ultimate, whereas the shade is not, but that's not the point. The point is that any class has access to 'teleporting'. NBs have it as a skill because it's part of our defense. People seem to forget we have no class shields and no class purge, and a very lack-luster HOT (actually, all our HOTs are very lack luster, especially if your a stamblade). NBs primary defense is to kite, LOS, roll-dodge. You may not like that, you may find it exceedingly annoying, but that doesn't make it 'OP.'
You want to know how to counter? The skill costs magica - there are alchemical poisons that significantly increase the cost of magica abilities (and I do mean significantly). There is also lightweight beast trap - you can place it at the shadow's location while at range. You can place a fear trap on the shadow (no, it doesn't effect the shadow, but it will effect the NB who teleports there). You can camp the shadow in stealth. I forget who said it, but if you shoot an arrow (snipe) at the NB right before they teleport, the arrow will follow them. You can place a 'volcanic rune' at the location of the shade while at range (the rune lasts a fairly long time -- when an enemy enters the rune it knocks them into the air and stuns them). You know, there are other measures that can be used, but I'm not going to list anymore. The best thing you could do for yourself is to spend some time learning more about the game and the game mechanics. (This includes learning the ins-and-outs of all the class skills, guild skills, world skills, weapon skills as well as the passives. Just reading about them isn't enough, but at least it's a start). Granted, this can take a chunk of time, but in the end, you will be a much better player for doing so, and you will be able to figure many things out for yourself.
I had in mind writing about Undo but the post was already very long so I didn't include it. For me its hard to compare because as you said Undo is an ultimate. Additionally it directly shows you where the enemy moves to and it takes a bit of time for them to reach the position. It also takes you to the point where you were 4 seconds ago so its much harder to plan where to go.
About the rest: I basically already talked about the stuff you wrote there except for the magicka cost poisons (thanks for that input, I have to test it if its reliable in preventing stamblades from teleporting but I doubt it). From my experience stuff like trap beast or a single projectile are simply not enough to secure the kill against a competent NB player because they will teleport with enough health to survive it. The main problem stands that you can't apply additional pressure after the teleportation for quite some time.
Edit: I have 0 issues with normal kiting and roll-dodging. This is specifically about the ability of the Shadow Image teleportation to go through walls and ignore vertical distance.
Can I quote you the next time someone complains about wards & streak, purge & "healbots" etc.?1 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@HankTwo oh dude I'll be happy to give you some advice. So the way Shadow Image works is that they have to put it down beforehand; meaning it requires preplanning, and they can only utilize their shade once before recasting it. If you have a trolling NB using Image then he's going to get away with using his shade the first time, but he'll need to put down another one in order to use it again. Don't let him do that. If you see him disappear then go after him immediately. Were you on the top floor? His shade is most likely on the bottom floor and vice versa. Go to where his shade is and immediately engage. If you do this you'll prevent him from putting down another one to troll you with later. Can't find him? Hard target him. He cloaked? Use a DoT, when he comes out of stealth you'll see the DoT ticking away.
Hope this is helpful bud.3 -
HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭@HankTwo oh dude I'll be happy to give you some advice. So the way Shadow Image works is that they have to put it down beforehand; meaning it requires preplanning, and they can only utilize their shade once before recasting it. If you have a trolling NB using Image then he's going to get away with using his shade the first time, but he'll need to put down another one in order to use it again. Don't let him do that. If you see him disappear then go after him immediately. Were you on the top floor? His shade is most likely on the bottom floor and vice versa. Go to where his shade is and immediately engage. If you do this you'll prevent him from putting down another one to troll you with later. Can't find him? Hard target him. He cloaked? Use a DoT, when he comes out of stealth you'll see the DoT ticking away.
Hope this is helpful bud.
I know how Shadow Image works, no need to patronize me.
Good stamblades will usually instantly recast shade when they teleport. Often they place it on top of the tower and move the fight to the second floor on the opposite side of the stairs. This cycle of teleporting up (and instantly recast shade), let the enemy walk half the second floor + 2 staircases and then jump down to the second floor again (with shade on top of the tower) can be repeated pretty much indefinitely.
Only an incompetent NB would (always) teleport downwards, because that's the direction that the enemy player can follow in the fastest way.Edited by HankTwo on 14 July 2018 16:36PC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK2 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭When you see a high mobility class like stam sorc or stamblade run into a tower or around a bunch of rocks and trees, you need to hear in your head "Oh please Brer Fox, whatever you do, please don't throw me into the briar patch." If you waste resources trying to chase one around on their ideal turf, you are giving them a large advantage.
The counter is to force them to engage you on terms better suited to you.
Shade rewards strong gameplay and is a lot of fun and doesn't instagib people; it's a great skill.4 -
Metemsycosis✭✭✭✭Hold up. It's not that you wanna counter shade you wanna counter shade at a resource. Take the resource and wait for the nb to try to take it back. Going into the tower won't get them the resource back.
You've gotten good suggestions as to counters. Camping, mines, traps, etc. Which class are you playing?
Terethea Magdalena, Breton Nightblade
A Dark-Adapted Eye, Imperial Necromancer
sanguinare vampiris
https://m.twitch.tv/amcrenshaw/profile3 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭.I fight on the shade but yea if he wants to run he will get a way I chop it up to a W and go on about my business.0 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭I know that most NB mains will probably hate this thread because it is an interesting and fun to use skill. However, please be honest and think about if there are any real counters to it for other classes.
The general problem with this skill is that NBs can use it whenever they feel too pressured and seem to lose the fight so they can instantly reset it. Most of the time they use their shade to teleport to a position behind objects or to teleport to a much higher position. A prime example of this are the towers at resources. Imagine a 1v1 where the NB is on the losing end. The NB player could just jump off the tower and then teleport right back on it when you try to follow him. This basically let’s NBs reset fights at an incredible low cost with no real counter play. With enough objects around, it seems to me that you can’t kill a competent (stam) NB with most other classes in a 1v1 scenario.
So, let’s look at some possible counters and why they don’t work (well):
1) Pulls (DK chains, Silver Leash) and gap closers:
In 99% of the cases the NB will teleport to a position that is either much higher or behind a wall so this is pretty much useless
2) Trap skills (Trap beasts, Daedric Mines) and AOE snares (Caltrops, Eruption):
In case of stam NBs they will always have access to snare/root immunity. The damage of these skills will also most likely not be enough to secure a kill.
3) Delayed damage (Curse, Meteor) and DOTs:
In principal this could work, but since you can’t apply more pressure after the teleport, Vigor + Troll King will let them outheal it. In case of meteor they can just teleport right after they see it coming and then block it. DOTs on the other hand can be suppressed by cloaking after the teleportation.
4) Mobility skills (Expedition buffs, Streak, Sprint):
In most cases you will have to traverse a very large distance to the point where the NB teleported to. This means that you will have to use a much greater portion of your resources than the NB to get there ‘fast’ and still need much more time to reach the point.
The only class that I can think of that could maybe counter this would be a magSorc using delayed damage + mines. It would be nice if some of them could share their experience. For most other classes it seems like a hopeless fight.
Here are some possible solutions:
1) Make the Shadow Image work like an instant gap closer to your shade. This would mean that you can’t teleport to it when the shade is behind a wall or at a large vertical distance compared to your position. For compensation: if you can’t teleport to an existing shade place a new one instead and get the full magicka cost refunded.
2) Whenever a NB teleports to its shade, enable a single synergy for an enemy player so that he can teleport alongside the NB. Would be an interesting solution, but it must be a system that still prevents getting into enemy keeps with this.
3) Significantly increase the incoming damage and suppress the ability to cloak for a short amount of time after teleporting. This would allow DOT builds to maybe secure a kill.
So, what do you think. Are there any counter options I missed, or does this skill need some rebalancing?
If someone is running away then they already lost. And undo from psijic skills allows anyone to jump off a keep or cliff then teleport back up.0 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stand next to the shade. Problem solved.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South2
