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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
moved
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NickStern✭✭✭Of course screen shots can be faked if you take time to create a fake. Posting it immediately after being requested would tend to indicate otherwise. Your answer says much.
Try reporting my OP to the moderators for posting false information, if you want some type of confirmation. Otherwise, you have what you got, and I spent the time to obtain and share the results with you. If it's not one thing, it's another, so no, I will not post anything further than what I provided in the OP.
And what we have is no proof based on what you posted.1 -
wolfie1.0.✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DuskMarine wrote: »wtlonewolf20 wrote: »This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.
-vovus
Under the terms of the TOS you technically dont have ownership of in game items. What you have is a license to access and use in game content. You dont exactly have true ownership of a product.
anything you buy with money techniquelly does belong to you cause you purchased it. there are many ways people can come out with things regardless of zoses terms.
That actually is not a true statement. Yes it applies to certain products, however, in the majority of cases when it comes to digital software products you are not buying the software you are buying access to said software.5 -
Edaphon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DuskMarine wrote: »wtlonewolf20 wrote: »This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.
-vovus
Under the terms of the TOS you technically dont have ownership of in game items. What you have is a license to access and use in game content. You dont exactly have true ownership of a product.
anything you buy with money techniquelly does belong to you cause you purchased it. there are many ways people can come out with things regardless of zoses terms.
Only crowns belong to you then and if you decide, for whatever reason, to exchange your crowns for a (temporary) permission to use ingame items you've only got yourself to blame.
0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Great that you got a response but I’d prefer to hear from either Gina or Jess on this. Support is great, but they can give conflicting answers based on who in support you talk to.
The thing is that Support and GinaJessKai are all equally official. Yes, I have seen conflicting answers, and privately, they have all arrived at the same answer, butlordrichter wrote: »
The thing is that Support and GinaJessKai are all equally official on this matter.
@lordrichter
Yep. I wasn’t suggesting otherwise. Just saying that more sources giving the same answer would be beneficial no? Maybe not necessary, but nice to have.
This is sort of like going to Mom to get permission, getting a No, then going to Dad to see if there is a different answer.
And what we have is no proof based on what you posted.
Proof? No. An accurate account of what transpired? Likely. The good Doctor does not strike me as a person who wants to have the hammer dropped over this issue. ZOS has come down on people lying about Support issues in the past. The last time I recall, it was Jessica that smacked them down, and it was in public on the forum.
4 -
DuskMarine✭✭✭✭✭
✭wtlonewolf20 wrote: »DuskMarine wrote: »wtlonewolf20 wrote: »This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.
-vovus
Under the terms of the TOS you technically dont have ownership of in game items. What you have is a license to access and use in game content. You dont exactly have true ownership of a product.
anything you buy with money techniquelly does belong to you cause you purchased it. there are many ways people can come out with things regardless of zoses terms.
That actually is not a true statement. Yes it applies to certain products, however, in the majority of cases when it comes to digital software products you are not buying the software you are buying access to said software.
actually to us this statement isnt true but to a legal body who knows?? that is where it would actually count for someone. so its honestly something to think about your still purchasing something which still gives you power over that things use in many peoples eyes. so it just depends if someone wants to sue depending where their at in the world it might actually work.0 -
AlienatedGoat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Proof? Screencap of the original email?
And ZOS, if this is your official stance, when are you going to change your ToS and EULA to reflect this?@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror, @ZOS_RichLambert, @ZOS_Holden
Because as it stands now, "Mykael" might say it's "completely against the rules", but your ToS and EULA don't mention Crown-bought items for Gold exchanges explicitly. All terms must be explicitly defined and supported in any legally binding agreement. Therefore, it isn't prohibited.
I've explained why in this post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/417585/zos-you-need-to-change-your-tos-and-eula/p1
Over a month of this ambiguity and silence now. You need to make this official and actionable if this is your stance.PC-NA Goat11 -
Firemantim✭✭This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.
-vovus
You know for a fact if they said "it is allowed" there would be riots about scamming.1 -
efduncanub17_ESO✭✭✭they have very little means of serious enforcement as long as your not advertising and doing it in private they cant really tell much0 -
JJBoomer✭✭✭✭✭DuskMarine wrote: »wtlonewolf20 wrote: »This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.
-vovus
Under the terms of the TOS you technically dont have ownership of in game items. What you have is a license to access and use in game content. You dont exactly have true ownership of a product.
anything you buy with money techniquelly does belong to you cause you purchased it. there are many ways people can come out with things regardless of zoses terms.
Not really? People rent apartments with money, but they don't own them. We don't really OWN this game, we're renting it more or less. Because if those servers get shut off, then the game goes away and we lose everything in it, despite the fact that we may pay money to play it or to get items.
so no, we really don't own anything. We're paying to access it. That's about it.
It really is a grey area though regarding this kind of exchange. Because real dollars are not being DIRECTLY traded/exchanged for gold, but by proxy of crown store items for gold. Which makes this really difficult and ambiguous to determine. I can understand why direct exchanges of real money for gold is a big NO-NO. but in game virtual items for gold that were purchased with real money BEFORE the exchange, idk.
It doesn't seem worth the risk at the end of it all. I would advise people against it. Since now that they have stated their position, if you get banned because of it, then you're crap out of luck.
just grind gold like the rest of us lol
EDIT: not sure this "Mykael" is a credible source. We really need an iron clad, unquestionable statement here.Edited by JJBoomer on 6 June 2018 00:574 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DuskMarine wrote: »wtlonewolf20 wrote: »This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.
-vovus
Under the terms of the TOS you technically dont have ownership of in game items. What you have is a license to access and use in game content. You dont exactly have true ownership of a product.
anything you buy with money techniquelly does belong to you cause you purchased it. there are many ways people can come out with things regardless of zoses terms.
Not really? People rent apartments with money, but they don't own them. We don't really OWN this game, we're renting it more or less. Because if those servers get shut off, then the game goes away and we lose everything in it, despite the fact that we may pay money to play it or to get items.
so no, we really don't own anything. We're paying to access it. That's about it.
It really is a grey area though regarding this kind of exchange. Because real dollars are not being DIRECTLY traded/exchanged for gold, but by proxy of crown store items for gold. Which makes this really difficult and ambiguous to determine. I can understand why direct exchanges of real money for gold is a big NO-NO. but in game virtual items for gold that were purchased with real money BEFORE the exchange, idk.
It doesn't seem worth the risk at the end of it all. I would advise people against it. Since now that they have stated their position, if you get banned because of it, then you're crap out of luck.
just grind gold like the rest of us lol
EDIT: not sure this "Mykael" is a credible source. We really need an iron clad, unquestionable statement here.
Once you buy it its yours, meaning you own that copy of the game, but you don't own the rights to the servers if they shut down so even if you own it, it will become useless.0 -
JJBoomer✭✭✭✭✭DuskMarine wrote: »wtlonewolf20 wrote: »This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.
-vovus
Under the terms of the TOS you technically dont have ownership of in game items. What you have is a license to access and use in game content. You dont exactly have true ownership of a product.
anything you buy with money techniquelly does belong to you cause you purchased it. there are many ways people can come out with things regardless of zoses terms.
Not really? People rent apartments with money, but they don't own them. We don't really OWN this game, we're renting it more or less. Because if those servers get shut off, then the game goes away and we lose everything in it, despite the fact that we may pay money to play it or to get items.
so no, we really don't own anything. We're paying to access it. That's about it.
It really is a grey area though regarding this kind of exchange. Because real dollars are not being DIRECTLY traded/exchanged for gold, but by proxy of crown store items for gold. Which makes this really difficult and ambiguous to determine. I can understand why direct exchanges of real money for gold is a big NO-NO. but in game virtual items for gold that were purchased with real money BEFORE the exchange, idk.
It doesn't seem worth the risk at the end of it all. I would advise people against it. Since now that they have stated their position, if you get banned because of it, then you're crap out of luck.
just grind gold like the rest of us lol
EDIT: not sure this "Mykael" is a credible source. We really need an iron clad, unquestionable statement here.
Once you buy it its yours, meaning you own that copy of the game, but you don't own the rights to the servers if they shut down so even if you own it, it will become useless.
That's just semantics really. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯2 -
Eyro✭✭✭✭LOL. ZOS is such unethical trash. Literally setting up players*** to be preyed upon by scammers by opening the door for this and then excusing themselves from liability by saying it's against rules after days of confusion and speculation on the issue.
*** By players i mean you regular folks, not the elite players who have connections to ZOS employees and can get around getting banned for TOS violations
Im honestly surprised anyone thought this would go down any other way.
This is Zos we are talking about. They can’t even make a truely useful search function for the AH, you really think they could pull off a system for trading gold for crown shop items? Oh I know just put the gold in the guild bank, that always works...
And since I would be surprised if they could, the only option left is to say it is against the rules, or you have to deal with all the scammed help request.Edited by Eyro on 6 June 2018 01:501 -
Ohtimbar✭✭✭✭✭
✭"The rules" say nothing of the sort. I'll do as I please until I see it in writing.Edited by Ohtimbar on 6 June 2018 01:56forever stuck in combat3 -
Edaphon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.
5 -
AlienatedGoat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.
Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.
Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.PC-NA Goat0 -
Ohtimbar✭✭✭✭✭
✭
If the opportunity presents itself and I feel like it, sure. I can't be held accountable for breaking secret rules. They can make any rule they like, but they have to inform their players first. I haven't accepted any terms that prohibit it.forever stuck in combat7 -
AlienatedGoat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.
Maybe everyone should put in a ticket asking the same question, then. This might cause them to make a public statement.
It still won't change anything. I've already shown that their legal documentation has no provision for Crown-item to gold transfers and trading.
No statement will change that fact. Only an amended ToS and EULA will.
All a statement should serve to do is announce their intentions to amend their legal agreements.PC-NA Goat5 -
Mix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Would be nice to get a second opinion on this from @ZOS_GinaBruno or @ZOS_JessicaFolsom just to be extra clear.
If a friend gifts me a crown item because I don't have a lot of crowns and mentioned I wanted but then I feel I should gift my friend some gold in return...
If people complain about getting "scammed' this is really easy on ZoS's end. Laugh at them. "I paid Player 1 a million gold to buy me a motif and he never gifted me a motif!" That's not how gifts work! You gifted him gold and he didn't gift you something in return...
I see no reason why friends gifting each other crown items or gold should be against the rules. However, in NO circumstance could a player get "scammed" doing this, because gifting is of your own free will and not a requirement!6 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.
Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.
Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.
"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."1 -
Eyro✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »
No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.
Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.
Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.
"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."
Ok. go ahead and name them for me... start with the real currency and end with value outside of the services.
Edited by Eyro on 6 June 2018 02:504 -
Hanokihs✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »
No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.
Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.
Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.
"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."
Semantics at play:
Technically, in-game crowns and crown items aren't real currency. If they were, it'd defeat the purpose of having to buy crowns in the first place; once purchased, crown items are in-game items. The statement you quoted is about gold-sellers selling in-game items for real-world money; there's nothing officially saying in-game money can't be traded for other in-game items.
As others have said, they're just protecting themselves from the dual headache of people constantly shouting "P2W!" and "I GOT SCAMMED!" Exploit systems at own risk, is pretty much all any of this means."I haven't really played much yet, but lemme tell you all about how the game should include X and be a lot more like Y!" - Half the posters on this forum."I've been here for years, and lemme tell you all about how they should never change or evolve Z, because then the game would be ruined forever." - The other half of posters on this forum.5 -
Eyro✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »
No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.
Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.
Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.
"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."
Semantics at play:
Technically, in-game crowns and crown items aren't real currency. If they were, it'd defeat the purpose of having to buy crowns in the first place; once purchased, crown items are in-game items. The statement you quoted is about gold-sellers selling in-game items for real-world money; there's nothing officially saying in-game money can't be traded for other in-game items.
As others have said, they're just protecting themselves from the dual headache of people constantly shouting "P2W!" and "I GOT SCAMMED!" Exploit systems at own risk, is pretty much all any of this means.
It should be interesting to see how they modify the TOS to state that it is against the rules to buy in game items with gold.Edited by Eyro on 6 June 2018 02:547 -
ComboBreaker88✭✭✭✭✭
✭1) Who [snip] cares?
2) Prove it.
3) Prove it.
If you actually care that other people are doing this or could do this then it's not about your own gameplay. [snip] Regardless of it actually impacting you or not, it nobody's business how other players choose to play. [snip]
Zenimax is charging outrageous amounts of real money for in game items that have no real value. If a person spends ANY amount of money in their system and Zenimax bans that player they have a very real right to file a fraud claim with their bank. The terms of service are not a legal binding contract for users. Any company that sells a product then effectively takes that product away from the purchaser, owes the buyer a refund. -And you can literally take that to the bank.
[edited for baiting & profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 30 June 2023 15:003 -
Hanokihs✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »
No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.
Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.
Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.
"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."
Semantics at play:
Technically, in-game crowns and crown items aren't real currency. If they were, it'd defeat the purpose of having to buy crowns in the first place; once purchased, crown items are in-game items. The statement you quoted is about gold-sellers selling in-game items for real-world money; there's nothing officially saying in-game money can't be traded for other in-game items.
As others have said, they're just protecting themselves from the dual headache of people constantly shouting "P2W!" and "I GOT SCAMMED!" Exploit systems at own risk, is pretty much all any of this means.
It should be interesting to see how they modify the TOS to state that it is against the rules to buy in game items with gold.
lol that's why they can't actually update it without using specific terms; there's no way to vaguely address it with legalese as they did with the gold-selling issues.ComboBreaker88 wrote: »1) Who [snip] cares?
2) Prove it.
3) Prove it.
If you actually care that other people are doing this or could do this then it's not about your own gameplay. [snip] Regardless of it actually impacting you or not, it nobody's business how other players choose to play. [snip]
Zenimax is charging outrageous amounts of real money for in game items that have no real value. If a person spends ANY amount of money in their system and Zenimax bans that player they have a very real right to file a fraud claim with their bank. The terms of service are not a legal binding contract for users. Any company that sells a product then effectively takes that product away from the purchaser, owes the buyer a refund. -And you can literally take that to the bank.
Certainly not any bank, I reckon; seems to me like they literally ain't got time for anybody's nerd-rage about being banned from accessing a video game after they broke the rules.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 30 June 2023 15:01"I haven't really played much yet, but lemme tell you all about how the game should include X and be a lot more like Y!" - Half the posters on this forum."I've been here for years, and lemme tell you all about how they should never change or evolve Z, because then the game would be ruined forever." - The other half of posters on this forum.1 -
ComboBreaker88✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is kinda strange - you bought it, so it is yours. You can do whatever you want with it, even to destroy it. This is the definition of the ownership. So response above is saying that zos not only wants the money for the item, they want to control its use in a future. irl this is against the law. May be someone will sue them at some point.... Would be fun to see.
-vovus
You do not "own" anything in the game, ZOS exclusively owns every single pixel, you merely purchase the privilege of using those pixels and said usage is very much limited by the TOS. So this is not illegal and any attempt to sue would be laughed right out of the courthouse.
[snip] this stance is most likely just to try and prevent people from actively advertising to trade gold/crowns in chat.
Actually it would be a very real fraud case. And it would be done through whoever you bank with. You wouldn't need to go to court. If you spend money on ANYTHING and ANYONE takes it away from you regardless of their cause, it could very likely be fraud. Zenimax may own the game. But that doesn't give them the right to defraud customers who paid real money for a product. Even if the product was a lease. Which btw, it isn't a lease. It's a purchase. So you do own it, access to the server is what you are leasing. But denying access to the server essentially repossess said products.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 30 June 2023 15:022 -
danno8✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Player 1 sends Crown item to Player 2.
Player 2 buys a Ta from Player 1 for 100k.
Just an example. How are they planning on policing these perfectly legitimate transactions? Chat logs?
And what for anyway? They haven't lost any money (in fact they have gained), no goldsellers or third parties are making money, and everyone is happy.9 -
ComboBreaker88✭✭✭✭✭
✭lordrichter wrote: »
No, you just got that.
I'm not saying that you're lying but a private message from a ZOS employee isn't quite the same as an official statement.
Private message also isn't the same as a ToS and EULA that explicitly states that it is prohibited.
Until that is fixed, all the messages in the world won't make it against the rules. Terms of Service supercede any such statements.
"You may not sell, and You may not assist others in selling, Service(s) or in-Game items for real currency, or exchange those items for value outside of the Services."
Semantics at play:
Technically, in-game crowns and crown items aren't real currency. If they were, it'd defeat the purpose of having to buy crowns in the first place; once purchased, crown items are in-game items. The statement you quoted is about gold-sellers selling in-game items for real-world money; there's nothing officially saying in-game money can't be traded for other in-game items.
As others have said, they're just protecting themselves from the dual headache of people constantly shouting "P2W!" and "I GOT SCAMMED!" Exploit systems at own risk, is pretty much all any of this means.
It should be interesting to see how they modify the TOS to state that it is against the rules to buy in game items with gold.
lol that's why they can't actually update it without using specific terms; there's no way to vaguely address it with legalese as they did with the gold-selling issues.ComboBreaker88 wrote: »1) Who [snip] cares?
2) Prove it.
3) Prove it.
If you actually care that other people are doing this or could do this then it's not about your own gameplay. [snip] Regardless of it actually impacting you or not, it nobody's business how other players choose to play. [snip]
Zenimax is charging outrageous amounts of real money for in game items that have no real value. If a person spends ANY amount of money in their system and Zenimax bans that player they have a very real right to file a fraud claim with their bank. The terms of service are not a legal binding contract for users. Any company that sells a product then effectively takes that product away from the purchaser, owes the buyer a refund. -And you can literally take that to the bank.
Certainly not any bank, I reckon; seems to me like they literally ain't got time for anybody's nerd-rage about being banned from accessing a video game after they broke the rules.
You can file a fraud claim on any banking transaction from the previous three years. And when you've spent hundreds of not thousands on something over that time frame, you can grantee your financial institution will take that seriously and they will refund your money. Dont believe me? Try it.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 30 June 2023 15:051 -
DeadlyPhoenix✭✭✭✭✭Basically since they haven't updated their legal documentation to reflect the statement made by Mykael, you can trade gold for crown items and any action taken against your account for doing so by ZOS, could potentially result in a real world lawsuit against them.
They cannot take action because you are not breaking any rules that you agreed to abide by. Crowns are in game currency items and as such hold no real-world value. They are virtual currency for use in the game only. Same as in game gold. Therefore trading between the two is not against the rules as Mykael claims and any actions taken against your account that deny you access to the services you paid for, would be a breach of their own rules.
Do it at your own risk. They wont update their documentation because they want these transactions taking place. However they don't want to deal with the scammers and people being scammed. They struggle with basic updates and things being broken. Selling $100 crown store items for free by accident, listing items for 1k gold they intended to be 100k, etc. This is why they won't make a legit exchange system for it. They know it will break at some point and cost them money. This part is mere speculation, the first part however is fact.
Edit*
Before you go saying that a lawsuit would immediately be thrown out, consider the country in which someone else might live. To run an international online game, you have to abide by all applicable laws in every country you plan on allowing to play. Just because the United States might have loop holes and such that their lawyers can get them out of it, doesn't mean they can do it in every country they do business with.Edited by DeadlyPhoenix on 6 June 2018 04:054
This discussion has been closed.