How to improve the 2H's DPS in its current state

Tempestwrath · May 2018

Leemado wrote: »

Im in favor of moving Rally/Momentum to the figthers guild and give 2H a nice DoT on its place.
Or give us Major Fracture!

Major Fracture is kind of a useless debuff for 2H as the tank is almost inevitability going to be applying that. But Minor Fracture is an interesting possibility, as right now only a Templar, a potion, or in 4.0 the Sunderflame set can produce it. That would incentivize running at least one of those or a 2H user in a trial environment.

T3hasiangod · May 2018

reprosal wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

A buff to 2H??? No thanks.

I'm guessing you dont play PvP where its so meta even magika toons run it for momemtum..

Already stated above that all stam are pigeonholed to DW to be competitive.

I don’t think it is unreasonable to ask for all weapon lines to be within 4-5% of each other with similar skilled players. However... you will not see 2H come within 3-4k DPS of a standard end game stam meta right now. It is more like 10-13k DPS behind on PTS which is ~15-20% less overall. That is ridiculous..

My parses would beg to differ.

https://imgur.com/a/prjIl2f

If you bring numbers to the table, be prepared to back them up with parses please. As it stands, the gap between 2H and DW has closed considerably compared to what it is on the live server. DW is still ahead, primarily due to having a second enchant and higher Weapon Damage while on the front bar. However, claiming that they are "10-13k DPS behind on the PTS which is ~15-20% less overall" is an outright lie.

RoyJade · May 2018

Tempestwrath wrote: »

But Minor Fracture is an interesting possibility, as right now only a Templar, a potion, or in 4.0 the Sunderflame set can produce it. That would incentivize running at least one of those or a 2H user in a trial environment.

Not a fully good idea, bow already bring the only non-class skill with it : focused aim. Of course, reworking focused aim so that the special debuff tag the enemy as full range (for the long shot passive) also work, and 2H could at this moment get minor fracture.

But since the follow up passive need a rework, why not giving minor fracture to forceful ? A 5-10 second fracture after one heavy attack (and aoe applied with forceful) should give a huge boost to 2H in pve ; in pvp, the debuff is not that strong, and it will be better than the burst given by the actual follow up, main reason for the awful 2H light/heavy attack huge nerf.

Tempestwrath · May 2018

RoyJade wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

But Minor Fracture is an interesting possibility, as right now only a Templar, a potion, or in 4.0 the Sunderflame set can produce it. That would incentivize running at least one of those or a 2H user in a trial environment.

Not a fully good idea, bow already bring the only non-class skill with it : focused aim. Of course, reworking focused aim so that the special debuff tag the enemy as full range (for the long shot passive) also work, and 2H could at this moment get minor fracture.

But since the follow up passive need a rework, why not giving minor fracture to forceful ? A 5-10 second fracture after one heavy attack (and aoe applied with forceful) should give a huge boost to 2H in pve ; in pvp, the debuff is not that strong, and it will be better than the burst given by the actual follow up, main reason for the awful 2H light/heavy attack huge nerf.

My thoughts on Minor Fracture were really just musings. In PVE nobody really runs Focused Aim, but having another source in PVP is no big deal. Ultimately my musings on adding a little inherent armor debuffing or penetration to 2H revolve around penetration, specifically the named buffs/debuffs being a good way to make the skill line stronger in PVE in a way that won't disproportionately improve it in PVP.

A lot of people just want to pile on more damage, but as long as 2H is so perfectly structured for PVP play, there needs to be some careful foresight when bringing 2H up to snuff in PVE to not overincentivize PVP usage.

Bladerunner1 · May 2018

The forceful passive once gave 2H something unique, it was really a ton of AOE damage.

This is from last summer:

Each tick was pretty much matching the damage of the light attack.

Now the forceful passive seems to be not only weaker, but bugging out the PTS

The fourth line is showing 1131 average damage whereas the light attacks were 5450 average damage. Sometimes this is happening, sometimes not for me.

Khivas_Carrick · May 2018

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Tempestwrath wrote: »

Subversus wrote: »

Increase the attack speed? So that you can swing a heavy 2h sword that’s about as big as 80% of your character as fast as a dagger the size of your forearm? Doesn’t sound right to me.

Doesn't sound any worse than the current situation where the big, heavy 2H sword swings for less damage than a single strike from one 1H sword, and does it slower.

To be completely fair, I’d assume a light (but still kinda long) sword to do more single target damage than a heavy ass one due to the precision of your strikes. With something big you don’t hit as accurately therefore the damage can or can not be minimal, depending on luck (?). It seems just right to me that dw does better single target while heavy better aoe.

I don’t know what the problem is. I don’t want my fire staff to suddenly start healing. It’s not designed for that.

Go watch the Deadliest Warrior and Forged in Fire and you'll see just how much more damage 2H swords do

thank you

On topic, "Things To Buff Two-Handed Melee Weapons: Pissed Off Khivas Edition"

1) Change the other morph of Cleave, whatever it's *** name is, to not be an AoE and grant stupid Ultimate (because that's nigh useless, don't tell me it's good, it isn't, stop that)to be a decent strength ST DoT bleed and Major Fracture. Now you get a tanky type morph with AoE or a really strong single target attack. GG.

2) Reduce only slightly the cast time of Uppercut and it's morphs. Like *** man, the weapon is heavy but not THAT heavy, swing it like you mean it!

3) Make the Light and Heavy Attacks the hardest hitting in the game. It makes sense, literally scientific *** S E N S E to be the hardest hitting heavy attacks as well as the slowest, like good god man.

4) Make the proc chance for Ax bleeds 25/50% instead of that abysmal 16% ***. OR, or, leave it at 16% but also have it buff crit by 4/8% in addition to the bleed.

I am always looking for a new job @ZoS, I would gladly work for you since I just solved the 2H DPS problem rather easily SINCE YOUR ENTIRE PLAYERBASE REACHED THESE CONCLUSIONS AGES AGO AND THEY'RE STILL NOT WRONG.

xaraan · May 2018

There are probably a few changes I'd like to see in 2H, (no, the horrible moving momentum thing isn't one of them), but there is no reason a light attack/heavy attack with a 2H should do less than any other weapon.

If two warriors were to face off with matching stats, 1 2H and other with DW and they just both light attack each other, the DW shouldn't win by default. Arguably 2H should do more with both b/c 1. it makes sense that a giant weapon would do more damage and 2. DW already gets the speed benefit of having faster heavies. But for game balance sake I'd say make them do the same LA/HA damages.

BrokenGameMechanics · May 2018

Daus wrote: »

Adjust 3 things:
1) Increase its light and heavy attack speed to match DW.
2) Double the splash damage done by the Forceful passive
3) Change Follow Up so that it empowers your next light attack done within 2-3 seconds.

2H just received a huge unbalancing buff with the extra 5th Set bonus with zero cost. An extra 400 weapon damage that you didn't have before against a DW'r is _huge_. Plus DW was nerfed. But really the whole point 2H is the slower, but hit much harder with lots of side benny buffs/debuffs and CCs. DW is basically DPS damage and that is being reduced slightly as well. Plus the LA higher damage weaving adjustment compensation that was supposed to compensate DW to try and keep balance was just removed. The DW line doesn't have any CC's (just one from the daggers) or buffs, or benefits other than the straight damage and an additional enchantment for a bit extra damage. If you really want to make 2H DPS equivalent to DW sure, fine, then remove the all 2H CC's, Buffs, Debuffs, Gap Closer, Stun yada yada from the skill line and match up the tooltips damages so the DPS is the same. But you can't have the same DPS plus lots of stuff with one and the same DPS with nothing with the other. But than we all lose having two different melee skill lines each with it's respective pros/cons and having some diversity.

As it is today, in PVP 2H outnumbers DW maybe what 3-4 to 1? Maybe more, so its clearly unbalanced already. After Summerset when 2H gets the extra 5th Set bonus for free this will increase this ratio even more, say 10-1. Why would anyone spend weeks trying to farm an extra weapon for the DW line when it will maybe do only slightly more damage comparatively to 2H, offer no buffs (but the one), no debuffs, no gap closer and no CCs? Pretty much no one.

Kolzki · May 2018

I’m still seeing about 5k single target difference on pts out of 40-45k total. Difference between skills in each build is small on my nb. I figure that most of the difference comes from weapon damage through dw passives and the extra enchant/poison damage for dw.

Strider__Roshin · May 2018

Kolzki wrote: »

I’m still seeing about 5k single target difference on pts out of 40-45k total. Difference between skills in each build is small on my nb. I figure that most of the difference comes from weapon damage through dw passives and the extra enchant/poison damage for dw.

So they still need a little bit of an increase. A 2-3k increase would put them right where they need to be. An easy fix would be to un-nerf the 2H's light and heavy attacks. Then all they'd need to do after that is to give Forceful a large buff to make the 2H superior against mobs in comparison to DW. This would make them justifiable to bring into trials.

Kolzki · May 2018

Oh and crit chance. If anything 2h could do with a really big dagger.

mr_wazzabi · May 2018

BrokenGameMechanics wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

Adjust 3 things:
1) Increase its light and heavy attack speed to match DW.
2) Double the splash damage done by the Forceful passive
3) Change Follow Up so that it empowers your next light attack done within 2-3 seconds.

2H just received a huge unbalancing buff with the extra 5th Set bonus with zero cost. An extra 400 weapon damage that you didn't have before against a DW'r is _huge_. Plus DW was nerfed. But really the whole point 2H is the slower, but hit much harder with lots of side benny buffs/debuffs and CCs. DW is basically DPS damage and that is being reduced slightly as well. Plus the LA higher damage weaving adjustment compensation that was supposed to compensate DW to try and keep balance was just removed. The DW line doesn't have any CC's (just one from the daggers) or buffs, or benefits other than the straight damage and an additional enchantment for a bit extra damage. If you really want to make 2H DPS equivalent to DW sure, fine, then remove the all 2H CC's, Buffs, Debuffs, Gap Closer, Stun yada yada from the skill line and match up the tooltips damages so the DPS is the same. But you can't have the same DPS plus lots of stuff with one and the same DPS with nothing with the other. But than we all lose having two different melee skill lines each with it's respective pros/cons and having some diversity.

As it is today, in PVP 2H outnumbers DW maybe what 3-4 to 1? Maybe more, so its clearly unbalanced already. After Summerset when 2H gets the extra 5th Set bonus for free this will increase this ratio even more, say 10-1. Why would anyone spend weeks trying to farm an extra weapon for the DW line when it will maybe do only slightly more damage comparatively to 2H, offer no buffs (but the one), no debuffs, no gap closer and no CCs? Pretty much no one.

The light attack difference barely affects pvp at all. If they didn't nerf 2h light attacks and did the rescale, 2h wouldn't perform any differently in pvp. But in pve it could become equal to dw