PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO · April 2018

I'd like to see something like getting minor berserk when shields are active so that sorcs can come a bit closer in terms of self buffs compared to other classes.

Murador178 · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I can't believe what I'm hearing!

You guys know that if they re-nerf Rune Cage before Summerset goes live, there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll give us anything in exchange? People are going to complain about Sorcs and beg for nerfs no matter what goes live. I say we "let it ride" and see where the meta takes us.

"A bird (or buff) in the hand is worth two in the bush"

Runecage in it´s current form on live (patch 3.whatever) is too weak and not used enough.

ZOS agreed with that notion of sorc players as they buffed it because it saw very little use compared to alternatives.

The way they buffed it is controversial.

Nobody has flatout asked for cage to be brought back to its previous state. Absolutely nobody - it´s not good enough that way. It was merely pointed out that the way the skill was buffed could lead to undesireable playing experience for the victim (which would then lead to nerfs down the road again).
Having the dmg as a dot + and added snare/vunerability/breach/reduced cost would still keep the skill desireable - but not as unbalanced as it currently is.

Cage and stormarmor were my top 2 skills needing buffs for magica sorc - but the buff to cage is simply not balanced. It needs a different buff imo.

yo killing 30k hp 28k resist players with meteor from full hp is funny(ofc it was a lucky all crit combo) - but still i dont mind high burst AS LONG AS there is counterplay. --> this change will result in a very boring meta --> stam will need to go tanky in heavy armor to survive.

SORC still feels boring to play. - not as boring when spamming reach so

Sorc needs a rework imo:

- shields are boring
--> they cause alot of hate- bc they are too strong vs 1 player and rather weak vs multiple --> maybe some form of reactive
defense needing timing

- remove nerfs of frags --> and renerf runecage
- changes to obilivion dmg
- a change to the curse proccing 2 times - imo its bad designed since u cant combo well most of the time on the first proc -
curses also shouldnt stack on a single player - getting 3 curses on a non tank is a death sentence without counterplay

Maulkin · April 2018

ToRelax wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

I don't think a small damage buff on fragments and major breach on the following skills is worth as much as the damage on rune cage.
If we had a powerful DoT in dark magic, either on Rune Cage or Shattering Prison (on one target), that would help with pressure and survivability (blood magic + surge) without buffing burst or shields.

Better access to buffs/debuffs should just be a given, tbh.

I agree on the bolded statement, it's not stronger I just think it's more balanced. Because the curse-meteor-cage combo has literally no counterplay.

Also I can't say something should be a given (access to debuffs) when we've been denied it for 4 years straight. In ZOS' mind, it's not.

DDuke · April 2018

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

See, either the sorc one shot potential needs to go back to previous levels (imo Live server is fine, I can get back into sneak before sorcs can kill me if I play well), or their defenses need to be brought in line with other one shot builds. That's how balance works.

I don't think it would be balanced if your stam NB and sorc could one-shot each other.

It probably isn't, but would be better than what we have now, where a sorc can one shot me even when I play defensively, but I can't one shot the sorc playing defensively.

Ideally neither one could one shot the other through defensive mechanics.

Maulkin · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Well, the thing with Frags is (was) that they're also part of the burst combo & definitely were hitting too hard before.

By moving the burst from Rune Cage to Frags you don't fix the problem, you only move the burst from one part of the combo to the other (i.e. the guaranteed Frag landing that Rune Cage provides).

Behave. How were they hitting too hard? 10% difference on a skill that has average tooltip ~15k, results in ~500 more dmg on average after Battle Spirit and armor mitigation. The notion that the damage was OP then but is fine now is ludicrous.

Either both versions are not fine (damage wise), or Frags are still broken strong. Is that what you're telling me?

DDuke · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Well, the thing with Frags is (was) that they're also part of the burst combo & definitely were hitting too hard before.

By moving the burst from Rune Cage to Frags you don't fix the problem, you only move the burst from one part of the combo to the other (i.e. the guaranteed Frag landing that Rune Cage provides).

Behave. How were they hitting too hard? 10% difference on a skill that has average tooltip ~15k, results in ~500 more dmg on average after Battle Spirit and armor mitigation. The notion that the damage was OP then but is fine now is ludicrous.

Either both versions are not fine (damage wise), or Frags are still broken strong. Is that what you're telling me?

Well, it wasn't as broken as Rune Cage is right now dmg wise (where it's +10k tooltip burst basically).

All I'm saying is it feels balanced enough on live in my opinion, a Cage+Meteor+Frag comes very, very close to killing me/just kills me most of the time (yes, I realize not many people play this) - I'd rather not see that become a guaranteed kill thanks to an extra 2-3k tooltip burst.

Frags is still worth slotting (on PTS and Live), is it not?

I'd rather see ZOS find ways to improve how sorcs perform vs tank builds, which they have some problems dealing with.

Maybe some DoT component to Rune Cage rather than instant damage could work.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO · April 2018

Also why does the Sorc execute proc below 20% and not 25% compared to a nightblade. I'd suggest that this is increased to 25%

Emma_Overload · April 2018

ToRelax wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

I don't think a small damage buff on fragments and major breach on the following skills is worth as much as the damage on rune cage.
If we had a powerful DoT in dark magic, either on Rune Cage or Shattering Prison (on one target), that would help with pressure and survivability (blood magic + surge) without buffing burst or shields.

Better access to buffs/debuffs should just be a given, tbh.

If Rune Cage got a debuff instead of damage, I would vote for Major Breach/Fracture and maybe throw Minor Defile in there, too.

Feanor · April 2018

@DDuke

Your scenario is completely theoretical. There is no way you have Meteor hitting and a Frag proc conveniently just when you need it. Also, even if you hold the frag proc, the only way you’re going to hit that frag is close range - otherwise it will be dodged.

I have been playing with RC on my bar since it became a stun. I consider myself a decent Sorc, not the best or really good, just decent. My experience is you will either hit the Meteor or the Frag but never both if your opponent isn’t a complete potato.

So actually the burst isn’t as great as you make it, it’s certainly nothing to write home about currently on live.

Maulkin · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Well, the thing with Frags is (was) that they're also part of the burst combo & definitely were hitting too hard before.

By moving the burst from Rune Cage to Frags you don't fix the problem, you only move the burst from one part of the combo to the other (i.e. the guaranteed Frag landing that Rune Cage provides).

Behave. How were they hitting too hard? 10% difference on a skill that has average tooltip ~15k, results in ~500 more dmg on average after Battle Spirit and armor mitigation. The notion that the damage was OP then but is fine now is ludicrous.

Either both versions are not fine (damage wise), or Frags are still broken strong. Is that what you're telling me?

Well, it wasn't as broken as Rune Cage is right now dmg wise (where it's +10k tooltip burst basically).

All I'm saying is it feels balanced enough on live in my opinion, a Cage+Meteor+Frag comes very, very close to killing me/just kills me most of the time (yes, I realize not many people play this) - I'd rather not see that become a guaranteed kill thanks to an extra 2-3k tooltip burst.

Frags is still worth slotting (on PTS and Live), is it not?

I'd rather see ZOS find ways to improve how sorcs perform vs tank builds, which they have some problems dealing with.

Maybe some DoT component to Rune Cage rather than instant damage could work.

So if it's balanced enough on Live it was balanced enough before too (again, damage wise). Since the difference in PvP is so trivial. Unless you're telling me that 500-700 extra damage is what tipped it over the edge to broken. This simply does not compute.

I don't disagree with you on the potential problems of the Cage buff. Nor do I disagree with tanks being the problem area for (non-pet) MagSorcs. Hence I proposed Breach which will help with damage against tanks.

A DoT on the Cage is not a bad idea, but again I don't think it'll be used. Why? Because the majority will survive the combo and once you survive it, the next burst window for Sorc is so long it allows you to recover. If you survive it on your stambalde you will just cloak and supress the DoT. GG.

A tank will just block and heal and you have to wait for CC immunity to disappear before you can re-apply the DoT. Light armor users will just get free magicka from Harness. I just don't think it'll be used.

ToRelax · April 2018

.

Maulkin wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Well, the thing with Frags is (was) that they're also part of the burst combo & definitely were hitting too hard before.

By moving the burst from Rune Cage to Frags you don't fix the problem, you only move the burst from one part of the combo to the other (i.e. the guaranteed Frag landing that Rune Cage provides).

Behave. How were they hitting too hard? 10% difference on a skill that has average tooltip ~15k, results in ~500 more dmg on average after Battle Spirit and armor mitigation. The notion that the damage was OP then but is fine now is ludicrous.

Either both versions are not fine (damage wise), or Frags are still broken strong. Is that what you're telling me?

Well, it wasn't as broken as Rune Cage is right now dmg wise (where it's +10k tooltip burst basically).

All I'm saying is it feels balanced enough on live in my opinion, a Cage+Meteor+Frag comes very, very close to killing me/just kills me most of the time (yes, I realize not many people play this) - I'd rather not see that become a guaranteed kill thanks to an extra 2-3k tooltip burst.

Frags is still worth slotting (on PTS and Live), is it not?

I'd rather see ZOS find ways to improve how sorcs perform vs tank builds, which they have some problems dealing with.

Maybe some DoT component to Rune Cage rather than instant damage could work.

So if it's balanced enough on Live it was balanced enough before too (again, damage wise). Since the difference in PvP is so trivial. Unless you're telling me that 500-700 extra damage is what tipped it over the edge to broken. This simply does not compute.

I don't disagree with you on the potential problems of the Cage buff. Nor do I disagree with tanks being the problem area for (non-pet) MagSorcs. Hence I proposed Breach which will help with damage against tanks.

A DoT on the Cage is not a bad idea, but again I don't think it'll be used. Why? Because the majority will survive the combo and once you survive it, the next burst window for Sorc is so long it allows you to recover. If you survive it on your stambalde you will just cloak and supress the DoT. GG.

A tank will just block and heal and you have to wait for CC immunity to disappear before you can re-apply the DoT. Light armor users will just get free magicka from Harness. I just don't think it'll be used.

Could make it so you can cast Rune Cage on cc immune targets (again) to apply that DoT. Might not be worth it at the current cost though, would have to be at least around 3x the damage it deals now - at which point you might as well spread it out over 8 seconds.

IAVITNI · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

See, either the sorc one shot potential needs to go back to previous levels (imo Live server is fine, I can get back into sneak before sorcs can kill me if I play well), or their defenses need to be brought in line with other one shot builds. That's how balance works.

Do you see anyone defend the proposed changes to Rune Cage? Nobody asked for it, nobody wanted it, and I certainly don’t want it in that form because we will have to pay with nerfs for 3 months of cheesy gameplay fun.

To quote a certain person in another thread (not gonna name & shame tho):

Eat the new cage, because I’m going to shove it so far down every nightblade throat I hope you all choke on it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit: Also I’m sure you are not dying because RC has damage now. It’s the new OL in most cases. Besides, “playing well” getting into Invisibility again means hitting two buttons. “Balanced”.

Overload is insane burst, but all of it is dodgeable (you can't really land it with Rune Cage). What kills non-tank builds is Rune Cage+Frags (or Rune Cage+Force Pulse even), or just Rune Cage+Curse which now pulls you to Implosion/Fury range and results in an instant, unavoidable death if you're not on a high health tank build.
Tested on PTS dozens of different variations.

"Playing well" btw means avoiding streaks/det pots with good movement, spacing out your cloaks/dodge rolls properly (high damage=not infinite sustain) & actually knowing how stealth works and when you're able to go back into sneak (and not get stuck in combat). It is far from easy and most "gank builds" I meet fail at it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit 2: Also landing your combo properly will kill the Sorc because he is CCed and his shield is down. Anything else is just asking for cheap(er) kills.

Nope, landing my full combo gets through one shield & deals maybe 2-3k damage, after which I need to get through 18k'ish health pool with Bombard & Light Attacks before Sorcerer CC breaks & recasts shield(s).

Two shields stacked & the whole combo (that can instagib 25k health 7 impen heavy armor builds on PTS btw) doesn't even reach the health bar of a sorcerer.

Don't really think that's a fair comparison. Does that Heavy armor build have Vigor ticking? Are they blocking? A freshly double shield stacked sorc is pretty much turtle mode. I'm not going to spend 6k magicka recasting two shields in 2 seconds in a normal rotation. At least I don't think a good sorc will. And If I'm constantly shield stacking I'm going to run out of resources before you do. Any class can turtle, why can't sorcs?

Secondly, last I checked, bow builds still weren't truly competitive in PvP so unless you state otherwise (and I will concede to your opinion on bow builds) it's not a fair analogy to use an underperforming spec to measure a classes defence.

Majority of Sorc passives are lack lustre as outlined by others. They could start by changing the Daedric Summoning passives to something more generic that gains a bonus with a Daedric Pet active.

Rebate - Change this completely. Maybe something like overhealing adds 200 Stamina and an additional 200 Magicka if a Daedric Summoning Pet is active. This effect can occur once every 2 seconds.
Daedric Protection - Increases health and stam recovery by 15% increasing up to 45% when under 30% health, 50% health if a Daedric Summoning Pet is active.
Expert Summoner - increase health by 4%, 8% with an active pet.

That said, I wouldn't be adverse to a shield overhaul, IF it came with substantial buffs, primarily reverting Frag nerfs.
Some QoL changes would be adjusting Streak momentum/cost, smoothing Rune Cage animation (I'm indifferent towards the damage) and changing Power Overload into a conal AoE ultimate.

For example
Power Overload-Cost 100 ultimate, Range 28 meters.

Release the power of the storm causing it to surge forward dealing x Shock damage to all enemies in its path. Casting Power Overload will remove all snares and cause you to Bolt backwards or in the direction you are moving

Damage should be relatively low, with the primary benefits being greater uptime, increased mobility, snare removal and a damn magicka based ultimate that isn't useless. Travel speed should be similar to reach. Bolt would just be a free streak, ideally half the distance of the actual skill as it is meant as supplementary repositioning and would minimize issues in PvE.

DDuke · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

@DDuke

Your scenario is completely theoretical. There is no way you have Meteor hitting and a Frag proc conveniently just when you need it. Also, even if you hold the frag proc, the only way you’re going to hit that frag is close range - otherwise it will be dodged.

I have been playing with RC on my bar since it became a stun. I consider myself a decent Sorc, not the best or really good, just decent. My experience is you will either hit the Meteor or the Frag but never both if your opponent isn’t a complete potato.

So actually the burst isn’t as great as you make it, it’s certainly nothing to write home about currently on live.

Well, landing the full combo isn't frequent but it happens. I spent a good 3-4 hours yesterday dueling on my mSorc vs another mSorc & I died a couple of times to that (one of the very few ways to burst through Harness+Hardened is to land that+Curse+Frags all at the same time). Then I swapped on Caluurion & Zaan and things got... interesting

Thing is, on PTS you don't even need to land the full combo to kill someone anymore. Not when Rune Cage alone is doing 10k tooltip burst already. You just need that+Frags or Curse to go off with it for a free kill on a non-tank build.

I can be fine with dying to 170 cost ultimate timed with a frag proc (there's some ways to avoid that on Live, i.e. cloak+block when you get meteor incoming & hope opponent isn't close enough with det pots), but being a free kill to "standard burst" every 7s after CC immunity is over... that's too much.

I have no intention/desire of playing a slow paced tank character and I don't want to be "forced" to that direction by game design.

luen79rwb17_ESO · April 2018

Bound aegis cool visuals destroyed!! Uhhh!!!

DuskMarine · April 2018

Beardimus wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

no actually thats not the issue ive tested it. your "ONE DEFENSE" is not a whining topic its tested to be overperforming. if you can tank a mechanic that is meant to kill you in one shot if your not speced to be a tank there is an issue with it. there was even one point where i tested it against a buddy of mines nightblade i had a 9k shield that ate a 14k lethal arrow like it was dirt. whether that was a bug or what i dont know. but they need to be nerfed alot more than 10% a whole lot more than 10% they need taken down about 50%. wards are litterally to powerful.

Seriously? Anyone that can't counter a Sorcs ward or Sorc in.general these days is not qualified to feedback on a Sorc thread. Sorry but a 50% ward reduction suggestion is ridiculous.

How's about 50% medium.armour resistant, and 50% heavy? And 50% cloak cost increase and 50 decrease in.time. Oh nd Templars can.have a 50% heal reduction too.

cant counter sorcs hmm ok so in order to counter a sorc i need to be a nightblade who can stealth and in one rotation kill you or your gonna spam your shield button till it breaks. right that makes sense. sorc shields overperform so badly and all yall do is defend a broken skill. and your comparing it to medium armor heavy armor and cloak you left out light armor by the way. but does armor need a 50% nerf no it doesnt reason being is the only one that protects you from one shots is heavy armor if you are blocking with a sword and board. i can agree with the cloak thing having a streak like hit to it that would work itd stop it being spammable but thats not what your attacking back about. the issue that none of you want to face is the factor wards are broken and overperforming in both pve and pvp. a ward should not ever protect you from dieing to a mechanic based death if you are not a tank if you think it should you dont know what your talking about. i have seen so many sorcs when non shield users in a raid have died to a cleave sit there spam their shields and that cleave means nothing to them. that alone proves something needs done to lower shields because you shouldnt even be able to do that if your not a tank spec. pvp its also overperforming with shield spammers if i hit you and you pop a shield even if i destroy it fast youll just pop another one and another one and another one see the point here? unless i stun you and pray to god your stamina wont come back(or you dont have a pot active already to stop that) shield spamming litterally can turn a fight almost instantly. i really hope the devs actually look at these posts cause otherwise well never have balance if they dont see the actual ideas through all the people who want to stay broken.

DDuke · April 2018

IAVITNI wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

Alright, why don't you try to explain why it's "balanced" that a sorcerer can one shot me (a high damage stamblade build) at any time now thanks to the undodgeable 10k tooltip Rune Cage, but it's not ok for the sorcerer to die in one shot in return when I land my combo properly?

See, either the sorc one shot potential needs to go back to previous levels (imo Live server is fine, I can get back into sneak before sorcs can kill me if I play well), or their defenses need to be brought in line with other one shot builds. That's how balance works.

Do you see anyone defend the proposed changes to Rune Cage? Nobody asked for it, nobody wanted it, and I certainly don’t want it in that form because we will have to pay with nerfs for 3 months of cheesy gameplay fun.

To quote a certain person in another thread (not gonna name & shame tho):

Eat the new cage, because I’m going to shove it so far down every nightblade throat I hope you all choke on it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit: Also I’m sure you are not dying because RC has damage now. It’s the new OL in most cases. Besides, “playing well” getting into Invisibility again means hitting two buttons. “Balanced”.

Overload is insane burst, but all of it is dodgeable (you can't really land it with Rune Cage). What kills non-tank builds is Rune Cage+Frags (or Rune Cage+Force Pulse even), or just Rune Cage+Curse which now pulls you to Implosion/Fury range and results in an instant, unavoidable death if you're not on a high health tank build.
Tested on PTS dozens of different variations.

"Playing well" btw means avoiding streaks/det pots with good movement, spacing out your cloaks/dodge rolls properly (high damage=not infinite sustain) & actually knowing how stealth works and when you're able to go back into sneak (and not get stuck in combat). It is far from easy and most "gank builds" I meet fail at it.

Feanor wrote: »

Edit 2: Also landing your combo properly will kill the Sorc because he is CCed and his shield is down. Anything else is just asking for cheap(er) kills.

Nope, landing my full combo gets through one shield & deals maybe 2-3k damage, after which I need to get through 18k'ish health pool with Bombard & Light Attacks before Sorcerer CC breaks & recasts shield(s).

Two shields stacked & the whole combo (that can instagib 25k health 7 impen heavy armor builds on PTS btw) doesn't even reach the health bar of a sorcerer.

Don't really think that's a fair comparison. Does that Heavy armor build have Vigor ticking? Are they blocking? A freshly double shield stacked sorc is pretty much turtle mode. I'm not going to spend 6k magicka recasting two shields in 2 seconds in a normal rotation. At least I don't think a good sorc will. And If I'm constantly shield stacking I'm going to run out of resources before you do. Any class can turtle, why can't sorcs?

Well, target wasn't blocking (but had a Vigor up) so I guess you're right about it not being a fair comparison.

That said, in a 1v1 scenario a sorcerer can easily spam shields forever and never run out of magicka (I can even do that on my full dmg 1200 mag regen sorc). So if one was playing, let's say a bow build and just waiting in stealth for those shields to go down... it's never gonna happen unless the sorc wills it.

Again, wouldn't necessarily even be a problem if that sorcerer also wouldn't have a guaranteed kill on me with Rune Cage combo - if I had similar ways of playing defensively & surviving.

IAVITNI wrote: »

Secondly, last I checked, bow builds still weren't truly competitive in PvP so unless you state otherwise (and I will concede to your opinion on bow builds) it's not a fair analogy to use an underperforming spec to measure a classes defence.

Bowblade is a very competitive way to play 1vX currently on Live; you can pick your targets, burst them down & if you know what you're doing survive and restealth until you can do it again.

There's no build that I feel has a "guaranteed" kill on a bowblade anymore, not after Power Lash becoming dodgeable (though I still die to good Leaps sometimes, but that's because I'm slow with the block and need to get better).

Or well, one exception would be another stamblade with Piercing Mark, gap closer and speed potion slotted and enough sustain to keep spamming dodge rolls & gap closers. Those "builds" are no fun to fight against on bowblade

Aside from that, I feel bowblade gets way more kills/minute than a rollerblade for example, though it is more difficult to play.

I wouldn't have made this if I felt it isn't viable & competitive: https://youtu.be/v1aqg6VJV54

It still is pretty bad in duels though when people know what you're playing and are tanky enough to survive the burst (or know to dodge roll it).

On PTS it was doing a little better thanks to undodgeable Bombard & more damage in general, but gets absolutely destroyed by Rune Cage burst, like every other non-tank build.

Derra · April 2018

Maulkin wrote: »

I don't have disk space for PTS sadly, so I have no experience of how the new version performs. I still have my doubts that it'll be used to be honest. Even with this big buff.

My experience so far is: Anything not utilizing a defensive set (impreg brass riposte) with atleast 25k hp or heavyarmor with atleast 30k hp dies with the 1st or 2nd meteor.

Compared to live due to lightattack + set + runecage changes my burst does ~15k more tooltip dmg (higher dmg + runecage 8.5k), has 3k more penetration and 10% more critdmg if i go for that option.

It outperforms masterreach hands down.

Biro123 · April 2018

Feanor wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Not having played on the pts, but lookin gat the changes, I'm of the view that sorc got quite a big buff(especially my playstyle).

I'm not gonna argue their pro's/cons vs other classes - I'm just gonna enjoy it while it lasts.

That’s shortsighted. You know what’s going to happen if it goes live that way.

It is - but I know things rarely change based on feedback from PTS to live.

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Well, the thing with Frags is (was) that they're also part of the burst combo & definitely were hitting too hard before.

By moving the burst from Rune Cage to Frags you don't fix the problem, you only move the burst from one part of the combo to the other (i.e. the guaranteed Frag landing that Rune Cage provides).

Behave. How were they hitting too hard? 10% difference on a skill that has average tooltip ~15k, results in ~500 more dmg on average after Battle Spirit and armor mitigation. The notion that the damage was OP then but is fine now is ludicrous.

Either both versions are not fine (damage wise), or Frags are still broken strong. Is that what you're telling me?

Well, it wasn't as broken as Rune Cage is right now dmg wise (where it's +10k tooltip burst basically).

All I'm saying is it feels balanced enough on live in my opinion, a Cage+Meteor+Frag comes very, very close to killing me/just kills me most of the time (yes, I realize not many people play this) - I'd rather not see that become a guaranteed kill thanks to an extra 2-3k tooltip burst.

Frags is still worth slotting (on PTS and Live), is it not?

I'd rather see ZOS find ways to improve how sorcs perform vs tank builds, which they have some problems dealing with.

Maybe some DoT component to Rune Cage rather than instant damage could work.

You're exaggerating again! May of your arguments make sense and I agree with a fair bit of what you say, but exaggerating won't help and will get you called out for at and distract from the real discussion.

I know you showed a screenshot of it having around 9.5k on a setup with no sustain and so many stacked buffs on an overload bar..
My 52k mag setup on live has it at 6.3k.

The reality for this skill is going to be between 4 and 8k for most builds. NOT 10k+

Derra · April 2018

Murador178 wrote: »

- remove nerfs of frags --> and renerf runecage

Then we go back to nobody using cage because the skill isn´t worth the slot currently (version 3.X)

Cage needs buffs.
Stormarmor does aswell.

DuskMarine wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

no actually thats not the issue ive tested it. your "ONE DEFENSE" is not a whining topic its tested to be overperforming. if you can tank a mechanic that is meant to kill you in one shot if your not speced to be a tank there is an issue with it. there was even one point where i tested it against a buddy of mines nightblade i had a 9k shield that ate a 14k lethal arrow like it was dirt. whether that was a bug or what i dont know. but they need to be nerfed alot more than 10% a whole lot more than 10% they need taken down about 50%. wards are litterally to powerful.

Seriously? Anyone that can't counter a Sorcs ward or Sorc in.general these days is not qualified to feedback on a Sorc thread. Sorry but a 50% ward reduction suggestion is ridiculous.

How's about 50% medium.armour resistant, and 50% heavy? And 50% cloak cost increase and 50 decrease in.time. Oh nd Templars can.have a 50% heal reduction too.

cant counter sorcs hmm ok so in order to counter a sorc i need to be a nightblade who can stealth and in one rotation kill you or your gonna spam your shield button till it breaks. right that makes sense. sorc shields overperform so badly and all yall do is defend a broken skill. and your comparing it to medium armor heavy armor and cloak you left out light armor by the way. but does armor need a 50% nerf no it doesnt reason being is the only one that protects you from one shots is heavy armor if you are blocking with a sword and board. i can agree with the cloak thing having a streak like hit to it that would work itd stop it being spammable but thats not what your attacking back about. the issue that none of you want to face is the factor wards are broken and overperforming in both pve and pvp. a ward should not ever protect you from dieing to a mechanic based death if you are not a tank if you think it should you dont know what your talking about. i have seen so many sorcs when non shield users in a raid have died to a cleave sit there spam their shields and that cleave means nothing to them. that alone proves something needs done to lower shields because you shouldnt even be able to do that if your not a tank spec. pvp its also overperforming with shield spammers if i hit you and you pop a shield even if i destroy it fast youll just pop another one and another one and another one see the point here? unless i stun you and pray to god your stamina wont come back(or you dont have a pot active already to stop that) shield spamming litterally can turn a fight almost instantly. i really hope the devs actually look at these posts cause otherwise well never have balance if they dont see the actual ideas through all the people who want to stay broken.

Holy wall of text. Without having read the majority of it because it´s bogus:

The only thing overperforming about shields currently on live version 3.X (and even that is debateable on pts bc damage got increased a lot for magica) is stacking hardened + harness + healingward against magica builds in a strict 1v1 situation.
A sorc only utilizing hardened or hardened and healingward is cannon fodder. It only matches favorably against stamDK and stamNB given attronarch + mines are used. Every other class should win or draw that matchup given atleast mediocre skill of opponents.
If both opponents are buttonpressdyslexics sorc will usually win or draw because shields are easy to use hard to counter for unskilled players that do not understand the matchup/ the class they play or the class they´re fighting (but it´s usually enough for 1 2 1 2 1 2 with shields).
Debating about balance on that level of incapability is however irrelevant - as it should be.

Wolfenbelle · April 2018

I have one simple request for all the PvP players on this thread asking for this or that nerf, buff, "rebalance," etc. Please, please, please remember that the game has two aspects, PvP and PvE. Any change made for PvP will also affect PvE, often negatively.

Perfect balance in PvP will never be achieved. Players will always find someone else whose character is stronger than theirs. When it happens to you, please stop to consider that any changes you want to prevent you dying to whatever that stronger player used will affect many other players, not just you and that opponent.

I wish it was possible for ZOS to separate PvP and PvE balancing, but apparently it is not. But it seems most balancing changes occur as a reaction to PvP player feedback. Almost everything I've read on this thread concerns PvP with little to no thought given to PvE impact.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_Wrobel

Lord-Otto · April 2018

Look, guys. Everyone asked for freedom from the Master staff. ZOS don't revert previous changes, like the Frag stun, so the Rune Cage change is the only way to make Master Reach expendable.
If you buff Frag damage, you'll still use Reach as CC, because of DAMAGE+CC, the reason Kena prefers Incap over Soul Harvest on magblade.
Are you not exited to use Force Pulse again? 'cause that's what it means. Willpower staff for 2k more mag? Asylum staff for status effects? Unreflectable Pulse with mini-AoE or Crushing for 1vX res denial? I'm looking forward to it.

Maulkin, I'm using Cage on Live, thank you very much. With Reach. It's only there for the Meteor combo and to deal with permablockers and permarollers.

Duke, I'd argue that Fear+Merciless is as strong and BS as Cage+Frag, and you get a TON of utility from the NB two, plus Fear often guarantees TWO succession hits in Cyrodiil lag/wonkiness.

Derra · April 2018

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

I wish it was possible for ZOS to separate PvP and PvE balancing, but apparently it is not. But it seems most balancing changes occur as a reaction to PvP player feedback. Almost everything I've read on this thread concerns PvP with little to no thought given to PvE impact.

What of the discussed changes here do concern you in terms of pve - apart from the evergoing shield discussion.

DDuke · April 2018

Biro123 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Not having played on the pts, but lookin gat the changes, I'm of the view that sorc got quite a big buff(especially my playstyle).

I'm not gonna argue their pro's/cons vs other classes - I'm just gonna enjoy it while it lasts.

That’s shortsighted. You know what’s going to happen if it goes live that way.

It is - but I know things rarely change based on feedback from PTS to live.

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Well, the thing with Frags is (was) that they're also part of the burst combo & definitely were hitting too hard before.

By moving the burst from Rune Cage to Frags you don't fix the problem, you only move the burst from one part of the combo to the other (i.e. the guaranteed Frag landing that Rune Cage provides).

Behave. How were they hitting too hard? 10% difference on a skill that has average tooltip ~15k, results in ~500 more dmg on average after Battle Spirit and armor mitigation. The notion that the damage was OP then but is fine now is ludicrous.

Either both versions are not fine (damage wise), or Frags are still broken strong. Is that what you're telling me?

Well, it wasn't as broken as Rune Cage is right now dmg wise (where it's +10k tooltip burst basically).

All I'm saying is it feels balanced enough on live in my opinion, a Cage+Meteor+Frag comes very, very close to killing me/just kills me most of the time (yes, I realize not many people play this) - I'd rather not see that become a guaranteed kill thanks to an extra 2-3k tooltip burst.

Frags is still worth slotting (on PTS and Live), is it not?

I'd rather see ZOS find ways to improve how sorcs perform vs tank builds, which they have some problems dealing with.

Maybe some DoT component to Rune Cage rather than instant damage could work.

You're exaggerating again! May of your arguments make sense and I agree with a fair bit of what you say, but exaggerating won't help and will get you called out for at and distract from the real discussion.

I know you showed a screenshot of it having around 9.5k on a setup with no sustain and so many stacked buffs on an overload bar..
My 52k mag setup on live has it at 6.3k.

The reality for this skill is going to be between 4 and 8k for most builds. NOT 10k+

Nobody knows yet what the meta will be like next patch, maybe people will realize how powerful max dmg builds can be & build accordingly - or maybe we just keep seeing tanky sustain builds everywhere. Who knows.

I'm theorycrafting based around how I would play sorc against my other builds and everyone else.

That build you're referring to isn't what I'd play btw (it was just theorycrafting for the worst case scenario of some Xv1 sorc, that specific build can't live in 1v1).

I get this on my 5x Caluurion 5x Necro 2x Zaan with 3x Spell Dmg glyphs & Mage mundus sorc:

...if instead of taking the proc approach (you can have those Caluurions & Zaans land easily with Rune Cage btw) with my burst damage I went for maximum stats, it'd look like this:

Maulkin · April 2018

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

I have one simple request for all the PvP players on this thread asking for this or that nerf, buff, "rebalance," etc. Please, please, please remember that the game has two aspects, PvP and PvE. Any change made for PvP will also affect PvE, often negatively.

Perfect balance in PvP will never be achieved. Players will always find someone else whose character is stronger than theirs. When it happens to you, please stop to consider that any changes you want to prevent you dying to whatever that stronger player used will affect many other players, not just you and that opponent.

I wish it was possible for ZOS to separate PvP and PvE balancing, but apparently it is not. But it seems most balancing changes occur as a reaction to PvP player feedback. Almost everything I've read on this thread concerns PvP with little to no thought given to PvE impact.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_Wrobel

IAVITNI · April 2018

Wolfenbelle wrote: »

I have one simple request for all the PvP players on this thread asking for this or that nerf, buff, "rebalance," etc. Please, please, please remember that the game has two aspects, PvP and PvE. Any change made for PvP will also affect PvE, often negatively.

Perfect balance in PvP will never be achieved. Players will always find someone else whose character is stronger than theirs. When it happens to you, please stop to consider that any changes you want to prevent you dying to whatever that stronger player used will affect many other players, not just you and that opponent.

I wish it was possible for ZOS to separate PvP and PvE balancing, but apparently it is not. But it seems most balancing changes occur as a reaction to PvP player feedback. Almost everything I've read on this thread concerns PvP with little to no thought given to PvE impact.

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, @ZOS_Wrobel

This is why I'm for the removal of Frag cc (much to the behest of majority of sorcs) but against the 10% damage nerf. I really think the cc removal was healthy for the class in the long run.

I called that Rune Cage would be strong, most didn't agree, although admittedly most didn't agree because they dislike the skill. Rune Cage definitely needs a buff to the live version, I like the damage but I'd prefer something else given the option.

Targeting the useless passives should be the first thing done. ZoS just has this lazy "politically-correct" way of going about balance. The CC removal on Frags should have been accompanied by a re-buff/un-nerf? of the 10% damage. ZoS likes to nerf but they don't consider how it affects all aspects, especially prior nerfs that were unrelated to newer nerfs.

@DDuke
Interesting clip though I'd still say that bow/bow isn't competitive. Most of those kills were on unprepared/unbuffed opponents although it is obvious your skill is miles above the average snipe spammer. Based on what I saw, I still think that bow could use a slight damage buff overall (allowing for more defensive choices) as well as having the power of Snipe more evenly distributed. Most of those kills are still technically 1-shots (going by the MOBA/League of Legends definition) so I have to disagree that it's healthy gameplay.

When bow/bow is competitive in a 1v1 (not necessarily a duel, but at least OW) and is viable on all classes, even those without stealth, then I'd say its actually balanced. Right now I still think it needs a buff + snipe tuning.

DDuke · April 2018

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Duke, I'd argue that Fear+Merciless is as strong and BS as Cage+Frag, and you get a TON of utility from the NB two, plus Fear often guarantees TWO succession hits in Cyrodiil lag/wonkiness.

Nowhere close and requires 6m range (i.e. can easily be played around).

I get 21 683 tooltip on Merciless with my high dmg melee stamblade, where

Meanwhile, the burst on mSorc (proc version, not max stats) is 28m range and has the combined tooltip of 8692+19 107=27 799 along with more penetration, so the damage is actually significantly higher.

If Fear dealt 8k tooltip damage it'd be comparable in terms of damage atleast...

Incap+Merciless, deals more damage though - but that can be blocked/dodged and also requires 5m melee range.

Ragnaroek93 · April 2018

Murador178 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

I can't believe what I'm hearing!

You guys know that if they re-nerf Rune Cage before Summerset goes live, there's no guarantee whatsoever that they'll give us anything in exchange? People are going to complain about Sorcs and beg for nerfs no matter what goes live. I say we "let it ride" and see where the meta takes us.

"A bird (or buff) in the hand is worth two in the bush"

Runecage in it´s current form on live (patch 3.whatever) is too weak and not used enough.

ZOS agreed with that notion of sorc players as they buffed it because it saw very little use compared to alternatives.

The way they buffed it is controversial.

Nobody has flatout asked for cage to be brought back to its previous state. Absolutely nobody - it´s not good enough that way. It was merely pointed out that the way the skill was buffed could lead to undesireable playing experience for the victim (which would then lead to nerfs down the road again).
Having the dmg as a dot + and added snare/vunerability/breach/reduced cost would still keep the skill desireable - but not as unbalanced as it currently is.

Cage and stormarmor were my top 2 skills needing buffs for magica sorc - but the buff to cage is simply not balanced. It needs a different buff imo.

yo killing 30k hp 28k resist players with meteor from full hp is funny(ofc it was a lucky all crit combo) - but still i dont mind high burst AS LONG AS there is counterplay. --> this change will result in a very boring meta --> stam will need to go tanky in heavy armor to survive.

SORC still feels boring to play. - not as boring when spamming reach so

Sorc needs a rework imo:

- shields are boring
--> they cause alot of hate- bc they are too strong vs 1 player and rather weak vs multiple --> maybe some form of reactive
defense needing timing

- remove nerfs of frags --> and renerf runecage
- changes to obilivion dmg
- a change to the curse proccing 2 times - imo its bad designed since u cant combo well most of the time on the first proc -
curses also shouldnt stack on a single player - getting 3 curses on a non tank is a death sentence without counterplay

Leave my Runecage alone! You're just salty because your master staff will be a roleplay item for meme builds!

Derra · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

If Fear dealt 8k tooltip damage it'd be comparable in terms of damage atleast...

But we´d be in the position where there´s 2 targets, snare and maim on fear + a way stronger passive associated with it aswell.
The melee argument gets somewhat counteracted by the fact that nb has cloak (forced gapcloser from enemy) an actual gapcloser for magica + stamina and access to a ranged root + snare ability aswell as major expedition on 2 skills (and further movement speed bonuses).
Small additional point would be: Merciless deals higher dmg for magica (+ also snares).

What i want to say is: The whole situation of the two classes is in no way comparable when looking at the complete featurelist.

DDuke · April 2018

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If Fear dealt 8k tooltip damage it'd be comparable in terms of damage atleast...

But we´d be in the position where there´s 2 targets, snare and maim on fear + a way stronger passive associated with it aswell.
The melee argument gets somewhat counteracted by the fact that nb has cloak (forced gapcloser from enemy) an actual gapcloser for magica + stamina and access to a ranged root + snare ability aswell as major expedition on 2 skills (and further movement speed bonuses).

What i want to say is: The whole situation of the two classes is in no way comparable when looking at the complete featurelist.

Well, I'm not saying Fear would be in any way balanced if it dealt damage - that's kind of the point <.<

Regarding gap closers tho... Ambush/Lotus Fan lost so much value after they made them break cloak that I don't really see the point in slotting them anymore (especially with cloak sort of working as a pseudo gap closer) - will have to test more (and that'll be on Nightblade Feedback thread

).

Biro123 · April 2018

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Not having played on the pts, but lookin gat the changes, I'm of the view that sorc got quite a big buff(especially my playstyle).

I'm not gonna argue their pro's/cons vs other classes - I'm just gonna enjoy it while it lasts.

That’s shortsighted. You know what’s going to happen if it goes live that way.

It is - but I know things rarely change based on feedback from PTS to live.

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I would personally gladly give up the damage on Rune Cage altogether in exchange for buffing Frags back up to 20% and giving them a debuff like Warden's got Major Breach on Fissure. God knows we're entirely lacking in debuffs as a class.

And that would allow for more counterplay, since light armor warded folks don't care much about being Breached/Fractured anyways and Frags can be dodged by medium builds that are alert. While heavy armor S&B builds already block 15% more damage from projectiles due to S&B passive, so they care very little. It'd only really marginally help against block holders by buffing the damage our DoTs do.

But then again I'm not responsible for balance.

Well, the thing with Frags is (was) that they're also part of the burst combo & definitely were hitting too hard before.

By moving the burst from Rune Cage to Frags you don't fix the problem, you only move the burst from one part of the combo to the other (i.e. the guaranteed Frag landing that Rune Cage provides).

Behave. How were they hitting too hard? 10% difference on a skill that has average tooltip ~15k, results in ~500 more dmg on average after Battle Spirit and armor mitigation. The notion that the damage was OP then but is fine now is ludicrous.

Either both versions are not fine (damage wise), or Frags are still broken strong. Is that what you're telling me?

Well, it wasn't as broken as Rune Cage is right now dmg wise (where it's +10k tooltip burst basically).

All I'm saying is it feels balanced enough on live in my opinion, a Cage+Meteor+Frag comes very, very close to killing me/just kills me most of the time (yes, I realize not many people play this) - I'd rather not see that become a guaranteed kill thanks to an extra 2-3k tooltip burst.

Frags is still worth slotting (on PTS and Live), is it not?

I'd rather see ZOS find ways to improve how sorcs perform vs tank builds, which they have some problems dealing with.

Maybe some DoT component to Rune Cage rather than instant damage could work.

You're exaggerating again! May of your arguments make sense and I agree with a fair bit of what you say, but exaggerating won't help and will get you called out for at and distract from the real discussion.

I know you showed a screenshot of it having around 9.5k on a setup with no sustain and so many stacked buffs on an overload bar..
My 52k mag setup on live has it at 6.3k.

The reality for this skill is going to be between 4 and 8k for most builds. NOT 10k+

Nobody knows yet what the meta will be like next patch, maybe people will realize how powerful max dmg builds can be & build accordingly - or maybe we just keep seeing tanky sustain builds everywhere. Who knows.

I'm theorycrafting based around how I would play sorc against my other builds and everyone else.

That build you're referring to isn't what I'd play btw (it was just theorycrafting for the worst case scenario of some Xv1 sorc, that specific build can't live in 1v1).

I get this on my 5x Caluurion 5x Necro 2x Zaan with 3x Spell Dmg glyphs & Mage mundus sorc:

...if instead of taking the proc approach (you can have those Caluurions & Zaans land easily with Rune Cage btw) with my burst damage I went for maximum stats, it'd look like this:

Point still stands though - you haven't showed me a tooltip of over 10k even on a max-damage build. And that's a massive assumption that max-damage may become the meta. Still much more likely the damage numbers will be around the 5-6k mark. Lets face it, 52k mag is nothing to be sniffed at and that only nets a 6.3k tooltip(with low spelldamage).