PTS Update 18 - Feedback Thread for Sorcerer Balance

Lord-Otto

@DDuke
Regarding the Cage+Frag combo vs Fear+Merciless:

My sorc gets a 27k tooltip for Cage plus Frag. My NB gets a 25k tooltip ON MERCILESS ALONE. And the latter is with Zaan equipped, double max mag pieces would easily surpass 27k. And the latter carries utility. And I could easily slot Inner Light for 4k more mag on that NB. And I have higher crit chance and higher crit damage on that NB.


AND. SO. ON.
NIGHTBLADES ARE F...ING BUSTED, PERIOD!!!

Anti_Virus

I've recently started play the Sorc class and although Im a little inexperienced But I want to give my 2 cents.

TL;DR at bottom.

Crystal Fragments(Crystal shards morph)
"Crystal frag empower" reverted to 20% damage when it procs.

Reasoning: since it no longer stuns and has a travel time it's only fair that the damage returns its not a spammable like Swallow soul.

Daedric Prey(Daedric Curse Morph)
Convert to a stam ability and deal physical damage

Reasoning: I don't know how widely this morph is used since the change to hauting curse this change would help stam sorcs with some burst, and yes I know this might be a bad idea but I'm throwing it out there Crystal blast could be changed into a stam morph aswell i just don't how to do it.


Energy Overload(Overload Morph)
Charge your fists with air
Deals physical damage instead of shock.

Reasoning: this one again might be far fetched but it would be a nice class ultimate for stam sorcs so they aren't reliant on DBoS all the time.

Power Surge(Surge morph)
No longer gives weapon damage instead while slotted adds 70 spell damge to storm calling abilities.

Reasoning: Makes the morph meaningful other than slapping on major sorcery.

Bolt Escape(and Morphs)
Lower the cost increase to 20% instead of 50%

Reasoning: If you won't add fatigue to gap closers than it's only fair to lower the mag fatigue. I personally like to play a mobile sorc and the current mechanic is very punishing.

TL:DR
-C Frags restore the 20% proc damage

-Daedric Prey stam morph

-Energy overload (Ultimate) stam morph

-power surge adds spell damge(70) to storm calling skills

-Bolt escape + morphs mag fatigue reduced to 20%.

Minalan

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@DDuke
Regarding the Cage+Frag combo vs Fear+Merciless:

My sorc gets a 27k tooltip for Cage plus Frag. My NB gets a 25k tooltip ON MERCILESS ALONE. And the latter is with Zaan equipped, double max mag pieces would easily surpass 27k. And the latter carries utility. And I could easily slot Inner Light for 4k more mag on that NB. And I have higher crit chance and higher crit damage on that NB.


AND. SO. ON.
NIGHTBLADES ARE F...ING BUSTED, PERIOD!!!

Yes we know, and yet they’ll spend the most time throwing forum temper tantrums about Sorcs.

HOW DARE YOU! Have one unavoidable attack combination with slightly less damage than Mine?! I’m special!

Minalan

Anti_Virus wrote: »

I've recently started play the Sorc class and although Im a little inexperienced But I want to give my 2 cents.

TL;DR at bottom.

Crystal Fragments(Crystal shards morph)
"Crystal frag empower" reverted to 20% damage when it procs.

Reasoning: since it no longer stuns and has a travel time it's only fair that the damage returns its not a spammable like Swallow soul.

Daedric Prey(Daedric Curse Morph)
Convert to a stam ability and deal physical damage

Reasoning: I don't know how widely this morph is used since the change to hauting curse this change would help stam sorcs with some burst, and yes I know this might be a bad idea but I'm throwing it out there Crystal blast could be changed into a stam morph aswell i just don't how to do it.


Energy Overload(Overload Morph)
Charge your fists with air
Deals physical damage instead of shock.

Reasoning: this one again might be far fetched but it would be a nice class ultimate for stam sorcs so they aren't reliant on DBoS all the time.

Power Surge(Surge morph)
No longer gives weapon damage instead while slotted adds 70 spell damge to storm calling abilities.

Reasoning: Makes the morph meaningful other than slapping on major sorcery.

Bolt Escape(and Morphs)
Lower the cost increase to 20% instead of 50%

Reasoning: If you won't add fatigue to gap closers than it's only fair to lower the mag fatigue. I personally like to play a mobile sorc and the current mechanic is very punishing.

TL:DR
-C Frags restore the 20% proc damage

-Daedric Prey stam morph

-Energy overload (Ultimate) stam morph

-power surge adds spell damge(70) to storm calling skills

-Bolt escape + morphs mag fatigue reduced to 20%.

The PVE pet Sorc guys need Daedric prey, I wouldn’t touch that. They’ll flip their ***!

If anything should get a stam morph it’s the atronach, overload is basically there for the extra slots.

Everything else is great, and I agree.

Lord-Otto

Minalan wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@DDuke
Regarding the Cage+Frag combo vs Fear+Merciless:

My sorc gets a 27k tooltip for Cage plus Frag. My NB gets a 25k tooltip ON MERCILESS ALONE. And the latter is with Zaan equipped, double max mag pieces would easily surpass 27k. And the latter carries utility. And I could easily slot Inner Light for 4k more mag on that NB. And I have higher crit chance and higher crit damage on that NB.


AND. SO. ON.
NIGHTBLADES ARE F...ING BUSTED, PERIOD!!!

Yes we know, and yet they’ll spend the most time throwing forum temper tantrums about Sorcs.

HOW DARE YOU! Have one unavoidable attack combination with slightly less damage than Mine?! I’m special!

I have always considered magblade way easier to play in PvP thanks to a reliable burst combo with unavoidable Fear. PvE is a different story. Only after the Rune Cage disorient change did I start seeing sorc on equal footing, but it has been held back by the poor damage.

I am not entirely happy with the concept of an unavoidable damage stun and would rather bump Frag damage to match Merciless, especially for non-heavy PvE rotations. But if this is our only opportunity to get Force Pulse back and compete with Nightblade burst, hell, I'll take it!

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@DDuke
Regarding the Cage+Frag combo vs Fear+Merciless:

My sorc gets a 27k tooltip for Cage plus Frag. My NB gets a 25k tooltip ON MERCILESS ALONE. And the latter is with Zaan equipped, double max mag pieces would easily surpass 27k. And the latter carries utility. And I could easily slot Inner Light for 4k more mag on that NB. And I have higher crit chance and higher crit damage on that NB.


AND. SO. ON.
NIGHTBLADES ARE F...ING BUSTED, PERIOD!!!

Yes, but there's something I can do about Merciless: I can CC break+dodge roll (fear+that don't land at the same time). I can also just stay out of the 6m fear range & dodge roll if I get hit by Lotus Fan (which no longer empowers btw) because that is almost always followed up by either Incap or Fear.

It's not really comparable, especially from the perspective of a bow build that almost never gets hit by fear due to its 6m range limitation.

Lord-Otto

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@DDuke
Regarding the Cage+Frag combo vs Fear+Merciless:

My sorc gets a 27k tooltip for Cage plus Frag. My NB gets a 25k tooltip ON MERCILESS ALONE. And the latter is with Zaan equipped, double max mag pieces would easily surpass 27k. And the latter carries utility. And I could easily slot Inner Light for 4k more mag on that NB. And I have higher crit chance and higher crit damage on that NB.


AND. SO. ON.
NIGHTBLADES ARE F...ING BUSTED, PERIOD!!!

Yes, but there's something I can do about Merciless: I can CC break+dodge roll (fear+that don't land at the same time). I can also just stay out of the 6m fear range & dodge roll if I get hit by Lotus Fan (which no longer empowers btw) because that is almost always followed up by either Incap or Fear.

It's not really comparable, especially from the perspective of a bow build that almost never gets hit by fear due to its 6m range limitation.

The reality is that CCs are so wonky you eat the succession hit in regular Cyrodiil. Fear even ramps this up by a reportedly flawed break free delay that very often allows me to hit with TWO abilities guaranteed, which is why I still run Soul Harvest, not Incap.

In a perfect world, you can also break Cage and dodge the Frag. Especially at range, which you suggest and is way easier to keep against a sorc than a shuffling, fear snaring, crippling rooting, crippling speeding, gapclosing NB.

Aedaryl

DDuke wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm surprised Nightblade players arent happy Sorc might get a small buff (not that this patch is a pure buff far from it) but they so OP right now they must be getting bored)

And how on earth are people calculating rune cage as a 10k hit - like seriously? On an Emp build perhaps lol.

Anyway thread will run on, its clear what the salient points are but think people trying to drown that out

10k requires a pretty suboptimal setup (outside a Xv1 scenario where you can survive without many defensive skills), but with 5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan for example you get 8235 tooltip on it. If you go for a less proc oriented setup with focus on stats, you can get 9202 on it (i.e. 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery/Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw).

And there's certainly ways to get even higher tooltip, i.e. Alchemist builds & other spell dmg oriented setups.


Not everyone plays a sustain build in this game and if you theorycraft expecting only sustain builds to hit you you're in for an unpleasant surprise... that's one big reason why gank builds work: many people don't take high dmg builds into account when calculating their builds' mitigation & survivability aspects.

Please, can you stop speaking about non viable build ?

Sorc need to be set up around regen because there defenses are the most expensive of the game (streak +shieldstacking).

"5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan " this isn't viable in openworld.

You are thinking about duel builds made to fight in 1v1 only.

A good sorc set up have a rune cage tooltip of 8k.

This is an exemple of a strong viable sorc set up. (Didn't found clockxork city citrus filet (45.5k magicka with it if I had it) and jewlery is still purple)

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

@DDuke
Regarding the Cage+Frag combo vs Fear+Merciless:

My sorc gets a 27k tooltip for Cage plus Frag. My NB gets a 25k tooltip ON MERCILESS ALONE. And the latter is with Zaan equipped, double max mag pieces would easily surpass 27k. And the latter carries utility. And I could easily slot Inner Light for 4k more mag on that NB. And I have higher crit chance and higher crit damage on that NB.


AND. SO. ON.
NIGHTBLADES ARE F...ING BUSTED, PERIOD!!!

Yes, but there's something I can do about Merciless: I can CC break+dodge roll (fear+that don't land at the same time). I can also just stay out of the 6m fear range & dodge roll if I get hit by Lotus Fan (which no longer empowers btw) because that is almost always followed up by either Incap or Fear.

It's not really comparable, especially from the perspective of a bow build that almost never gets hit by fear due to its 6m range limitation.

The reality is that CCs are so wonky you eat the succession hit in regular Cyrodiil. Fear even ramps this up by a reportedly flawed break free delay that very often allows me to hit with TWO abilities guaranteed, which is why I still run Soul Harvest, not Incap.

In a perfect world, you can also break Cage and dodge the Frag. Especially at range, which you suggest and is way easier to keep against a sorc than a shuffling, fear snaring, crippling rooting, crippling speeding, gapclosing NB.

Well no, not exactly. There's a big difference between Fear & Rune Cage besides the obvious range & damage.

Rune Cage has a travel time after cast, Fear does not. This means target is CC'd instantly when Fear is used (sometimes the animations are hidden, especially if the ability is block canceled), where as with Rune Cage it lands later when your GCD from casting the Cage has already (almost) ended. This lets you land Frags much closer to the moment the target is CC'd, compared to Fear->Merciless.
Here's a screenshot. "Entering Combat" is when Rune Cage lands, 0,8s later the Frag hits the target that was around 15m away (I did shorten the travel time by running towards the target).
With Fear, you'd still be in global cooldown unable to even cast anything, let alone already land them.


...and same with Fear, because I'm thorough with my testing (Entering Combat is when Fear is applied):


I'm using Surprise Attack here in this example (much faster travel time than Relentless/Merciless or Frags).


Thing with Fear & it being sketchy is its animation cancel & not so noticeable effect, an easy fix to that is getting an addon that shows CC icon on your screen whenever a CC is applied (Miat's CC Tracker & Bandits UI are both amazing for this).

I haven't had issues with breaking fear in time ever since installing the addon, though I do tend to always log off before prime time to avoid lag.

DDuke

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm surprised Nightblade players arent happy Sorc might get a small buff (not that this patch is a pure buff far from it) but they so OP right now they must be getting bored)

And how on earth are people calculating rune cage as a 10k hit - like seriously? On an Emp build perhaps lol.

Anyway thread will run on, its clear what the salient points are but think people trying to drown that out

10k requires a pretty suboptimal setup (outside a Xv1 scenario where you can survive without many defensive skills), but with 5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan for example you get 8235 tooltip on it. If you go for a less proc oriented setup with focus on stats, you can get 9202 on it (i.e. 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery/Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw).

And there's certainly ways to get even higher tooltip, i.e. Alchemist builds & other spell dmg oriented setups.


Not everyone plays a sustain build in this game and if you theorycraft expecting only sustain builds to hit you you're in for an unpleasant surprise... that's one big reason why gank builds work: many people don't take high dmg builds into account when calculating their builds' mitigation & survivability aspects.

Please, can you stop speaking about non viable build ?

Sorc need to be set up around regen because there defenses are the most expensive of the game (streak +shieldstacking).

"5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan " this isn't viable in openworld.

You are thinking about duel builds made to fight in 1v1 only.

A good sorc set up have a rune cage tooltip of 8k.

This is an exemple of a strong viable sorc set up. (Didn't found clockxork city citrus filet (45.5k magicka with it if I had it) and jewlery is still purple)

"isn't viable in open world" I've heard that one before.

First about stamina builds in 2014 when this game was mockingly called "Elder Staves Online", then about heavy armor & magicka templar in 2016, then about bow builds & later about destro/resto light armor mDK.


Life is full of surprises.

Aedaryl

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm surprised Nightblade players arent happy Sorc might get a small buff (not that this patch is a pure buff far from it) but they so OP right now they must be getting bored)

And how on earth are people calculating rune cage as a 10k hit - like seriously? On an Emp build perhaps lol.

Anyway thread will run on, its clear what the salient points are but think people trying to drown that out

10k requires a pretty suboptimal setup (outside a Xv1 scenario where you can survive without many defensive skills), but with 5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan for example you get 8235 tooltip on it. If you go for a less proc oriented setup with focus on stats, you can get 9202 on it (i.e. 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery/Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw).

And there's certainly ways to get even higher tooltip, i.e. Alchemist builds & other spell dmg oriented setups.


Not everyone plays a sustain build in this game and if you theorycraft expecting only sustain builds to hit you you're in for an unpleasant surprise... that's one big reason why gank builds work: many people don't take high dmg builds into account when calculating their builds' mitigation & survivability aspects.

Please, can you stop speaking about non viable build ?

Sorc need to be set up around regen because there defenses are the most expensive of the game (streak +shieldstacking).

"5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan " this isn't viable in openworld.

You are thinking about duel builds made to fight in 1v1 only.

A good sorc set up have a rune cage tooltip of 8k.

This is an exemple of a strong viable sorc set up. (Didn't found clockxork city citrus filet (45.5k magicka with it if I had it) and jewlery is still purple)

"isn't viable in open world" I've heard that one before.

First about stamina builds in 2014 when this game was mockingly called "Elder Staves Online", then about heavy armor & magicka templar in 2016, then about bow builds & later about destro/resto light armor mDK.


Life is full of surprises.

The life right now is that running full damage low mag sustain low stamina low stamina sustain isn't viable. We don't discuss 2022 balance, but the summerset one.

Minalan

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm surprised Nightblade players arent happy Sorc might get a small buff (not that this patch is a pure buff far from it) but they so OP right now they must be getting bored)

And how on earth are people calculating rune cage as a 10k hit - like seriously? On an Emp build perhaps lol.

Anyway thread will run on, its clear what the salient points are but think people trying to drown that out

10k requires a pretty suboptimal setup (outside a Xv1 scenario where you can survive without many defensive skills), but with 5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan for example you get 8235 tooltip on it. If you go for a less proc oriented setup with focus on stats, you can get 9202 on it (i.e. 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery/Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw).

And there's certainly ways to get even higher tooltip, i.e. Alchemist builds & other spell dmg oriented setups.


Not everyone plays a sustain build in this game and if you theorycraft expecting only sustain builds to hit you you're in for an unpleasant surprise... that's one big reason why gank builds work: many people don't take high dmg builds into account when calculating their builds' mitigation & survivability aspects.

Please, can you stop speaking about non viable build ?

Sorc need to be set up around regen because there defenses are the most expensive of the game (streak +shieldstacking).

"5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan " this isn't viable in openworld.

You are thinking about duel builds made to fight in 1v1 only.

A good sorc set up have a rune cage tooltip of 8k.

This is an exemple of a strong viable sorc set up. (Didn't found clockxork city citrus filet (45.5k magicka with it if I had it) and jewlery is still purple)

"isn't viable in open world" I've heard that one before.

First about stamina builds in 2014 when this game was mockingly called "Elder Staves Online", then about heavy armor & magicka templar in 2016, then about bow builds & later about destro/resto light armor mDK.


Life is full of surprises.

The life right now is that running full damage low mag sustain low stamina low stamina sustain isn't viable. We don't discuss 2022 balance, but the summerset one.

I think he means it’s viable for 1v1 or large group.

There’s no question that the build sucks once you’re outnumbered by just one or two guys. We had three guys up at DC last night farming two to three times our number of EP for about an hour before they finally brought enough people to take us down. I wouldn’t take a YOLO damage build into that, just... no. It required just way too much dodge rolling, blocking, and running around LOS.

DDuke

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm surprised Nightblade players arent happy Sorc might get a small buff (not that this patch is a pure buff far from it) but they so OP right now they must be getting bored)

And how on earth are people calculating rune cage as a 10k hit - like seriously? On an Emp build perhaps lol.

Anyway thread will run on, its clear what the salient points are but think people trying to drown that out

10k requires a pretty suboptimal setup (outside a Xv1 scenario where you can survive without many defensive skills), but with 5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan for example you get 8235 tooltip on it. If you go for a less proc oriented setup with focus on stats, you can get 9202 on it (i.e. 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery/Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw).

And there's certainly ways to get even higher tooltip, i.e. Alchemist builds & other spell dmg oriented setups.


Not everyone plays a sustain build in this game and if you theorycraft expecting only sustain builds to hit you you're in for an unpleasant surprise... that's one big reason why gank builds work: many people don't take high dmg builds into account when calculating their builds' mitigation & survivability aspects.

Please, can you stop speaking about non viable build ?

Sorc need to be set up around regen because there defenses are the most expensive of the game (streak +shieldstacking).

"5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan " this isn't viable in openworld.

You are thinking about duel builds made to fight in 1v1 only.

A good sorc set up have a rune cage tooltip of 8k.

This is an exemple of a strong viable sorc set up. (Didn't found clockxork city citrus filet (45.5k magicka with it if I had it) and jewlery is still purple)

"isn't viable in open world" I've heard that one before.

First about stamina builds in 2014 when this game was mockingly called "Elder Staves Online", then about heavy armor & magicka templar in 2016, then about bow builds & later about destro/resto light armor mDK.


Life is full of surprises.

The life right now is that running full damage low mag sustain low stamina low stamina sustain isn't viable. We don't discuss 2022 balance, but the summerset one.

Yet my destro/resto magicka DK is doing fine with zero sustain set bonuses, enchants or munduses, same as my mSorc (impossible to run out of resources basically before all opponents die, if I keep good elemental drain up time).


I always build around maximum damage minimal sustain on every serious build I create (and upload on youtube btw) and it has worked for me since 2014.

Lord-Otto

Duke, I know about Cage's travel time. But Frags have one, too. Whether you can hit them before the breakfreedodge depends on the distance. And sorcs are not good at spacing, due to no snare removal, no snare application and limited barspace for Major Expedition skills.

DDuke

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Duke, I know about Cage's travel time. But Frags have one, too. Whether you can hit them before the breakfreedodge depends on the distance. And sorcs are not good at spacing, due to no snare removal, no snare application and limited barspace for Major Expedition skills.

You can see the timing on the screenshot, 0,8s after CC is applied.

With median human reaction time being around 0,2s & around 100ms latency being the standard in Cyrodiil, you're left with 0,5s to CC break and dodge roll/block. Then there's also the server side latency in registering the CC etc...

Considering blocking/dodging a Surprise Attack after Fear is very difficult (even impossible if your latency is too high), I'd say blocking/dodging a frag that lands good 100ms faster than Surprise Attack isn't feasible.

Here's my CC Break tests from last October:
https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE

It's from before I downloaded CC Tracker addons & also showcases animation canceled fear btw.

Minalan

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Duke, I know about Cage's travel time. But Frags have one, too. Whether you can hit them before the breakfreedodge depends on the distance. And sorcs are not good at spacing, due to no snare removal, no snare application and limited barspace for Major Expedition skills.

You can see the timing on the screenshot, 0,8s after CC is applied.

With median human reaction time being around 0,2s & around 100ms latency being the standard in Cyrodiil, you're left with 0,5s to CC break and dodge roll/block. Then there's also the server side latency in registering the CC etc...

Considering blocking/dodging a Surprise Attack after Fear is very difficult (even impossible if your latency is too high), I'd say blocking/dodging a frag that lands good 100ms faster than Surprise Attack isn't feasible.

Here's my CC Break tests from last October:
https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE

It's from before I downloaded CC Tracker addons & also showcases animation canceled fear btw.

We’ve had a lot of ‘balancing’ around addons, and it doesn’t work at all for anyone on the console versions.

Let’s put it to rest: nightblade has some serious OP garbage, so does Sorc now. There’s a fractional second difference between the (unavoidable) burst combos.

Cheese is cheese and it all smells bad. We could argue al day whether Roquefort smells worse than Brie de Meaux

Lord-Otto

Yeah, that video is not what I can regularly observe in Cyro. And you're close to the enemy. Very close.

twistedmonk

deleted

Juhasow

DDuke wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Duke, I know about Cage's travel time. But Frags have one, too. Whether you can hit them before the breakfreedodge depends on the distance. And sorcs are not good at spacing, due to no snare removal, no snare application and limited barspace for Major Expedition skills.

You can see the timing on the screenshot, 0,8s after CC is applied.

With median human reaction time being around 0,2s & around 100ms latency being the standard in Cyrodiil, you're left with 0,5s to CC break and dodge roll/block. Then there's also the server side latency in registering the CC etc...

Considering blocking/dodging a Surprise Attack after Fear is very difficult (even impossible if your latency is too high), I'd say blocking/dodging a frag that lands good 100ms faster than Surprise Attack isn't feasible.

Here's my CC Break tests from last October:
https://youtu.be/q2oUzes2_xE

It's from before I downloaded CC Tracker addons & also showcases animation canceled fear btw.

Well smooth CC breaking is long gone feature of 2017. In 2018 new features are :
1.waiting for CC break despite having enough stam
2 waiting to use any actions up to over 1 second after breaking free.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm surprised Nightblade players arent happy Sorc might get a small buff (not that this patch is a pure buff far from it) but they so OP right now they must be getting bored)

And how on earth are people calculating rune cage as a 10k hit - like seriously? On an Emp build perhaps lol.

Anyway thread will run on, its clear what the salient points are but think people trying to drown that out

10k requires a pretty suboptimal setup (outside a Xv1 scenario where you can survive without many defensive skills), but with 5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan for example you get 8235 tooltip on it. If you go for a less proc oriented setup with focus on stats, you can get 9202 on it (i.e. 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery/Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw).

And there's certainly ways to get even higher tooltip, i.e. Alchemist builds & other spell dmg oriented setups.


Not everyone plays a sustain build in this game and if you theorycraft expecting only sustain builds to hit you you're in for an unpleasant surprise... that's one big reason why gank builds work: many people don't take high dmg builds into account when calculating their builds' mitigation & survivability aspects.

Please, can you stop speaking about non viable build ?

Sorc need to be set up around regen because there defenses are the most expensive of the game (streak +shieldstacking).

"5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan " this isn't viable in openworld.

You are thinking about duel builds made to fight in 1v1 only.

A good sorc set up have a rune cage tooltip of 8k.

This is an exemple of a strong viable sorc set up. (Didn't found clockxork city citrus filet (45.5k magicka with it if I had it) and jewlery is still purple)

"isn't viable in open world" I've heard that one before.

First about stamina builds in 2014 when this game was mockingly called "Elder Staves Online", then about heavy armor & magicka templar in 2016, then about bow builds & later about destro/resto light armor mDK.


Life is full of surprises.

The life right now is that running full damage low mag sustain low stamina low stamina sustain isn't viable. We don't discuss 2022 balance, but the summerset one.

Yet my destro/resto magicka DK is doing fine with zero sustain set bonuses, enchants or munduses, same as my mSorc (impossible to run out of resources basically before all opponents die, if I keep good elemental drain up time).


I always build around maximum damage minimal sustain on every serious build I create (and upload on youtube btw) and it has worked for me since 2014.

If your expecation when getting outnumbered is to maybe get 1 kill and then die - yes it´s vaible.
Otherwise it´s not.

You run a dueling build (infight sustain with eledrain) for cyro and set your expectations accordingly and claim to be successful with it - because it matches what you expect from it.
Your expectations limit what the class can do in this case.

Feanor

I find the idea of turning the Cage damage into a DoT interesting. A DoT that is not niche in PvP (yes you can run Wall or LL in certain scenarios, but that’s limited) would help out the toolkit because it would add something Sorcs have not - a bit of pressure to help the burst. I’d be curious to try it out.

Anti_Virus

Minalan wrote: »

Anti_Virus wrote: »

I've recently started play the Sorc class and although Im a little inexperienced But I want to give my 2 cents.

TL;DR at bottom.

Crystal Fragments(Crystal shards morph)
"Crystal frag empower" reverted to 20% damage when it procs.

Reasoning: since it no longer stuns and has a travel time it's only fair that the damage returns its not a spammable like Swallow soul.

Daedric Prey(Daedric Curse Morph)
Convert to a stam ability and deal physical damage

Reasoning: I don't know how widely this morph is used since the change to hauting curse this change would help stam sorcs with some burst, and yes I know this might be a bad idea but I'm throwing it out there Crystal blast could be changed into a stam morph aswell i just don't how to do it.


Energy Overload(Overload Morph)
Charge your fists with air
Deals physical damage instead of shock.

Reasoning: this one again might be far fetched but it would be a nice class ultimate for stam sorcs so they aren't reliant on DBoS all the time.

Power Surge(Surge morph)
No longer gives weapon damage instead while slotted adds 70 spell damge to storm calling abilities.

Reasoning: Makes the morph meaningful other than slapping on major sorcery.

Bolt Escape(and Morphs)
Lower the cost increase to 20% instead of 50%

Reasoning: If you won't add fatigue to gap closers than it's only fair to lower the mag fatigue. I personally like to play a mobile sorc and the current mechanic is very punishing.

TL:DR
-C Frags restore the 20% proc damage

-Daedric Prey stam morph

-Energy overload (Ultimate) stam morph

-power surge adds spell damge(70) to storm calling skills

-Bolt escape + morphs mag fatigue reduced to 20%.

The PVE pet Sorc guys need Daedric prey, I wouldn’t touch that. They’ll flip their ***!

If anything should get a stam morph it’s the atronach, overload is basically there for the extra slots.

Everything else is great, and I agree.

Like sommon Air Atronach? That would be cool.

Svidrir

DuskMarine wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

DuskMarine wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Sorcerer combat balance and ability changes. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance.

@ZOS_GinaBruno honestly in the sorc department the only thing that needs nerfed is shields thats it if you bring those in line more than 10% sorcs would be fine. what makes them overperform alot is shields alot of people can disagree but ive tested multiple times. having that shield makes all the difference in pve and pvp. a shield can make you basically god to almost all mechanics and most attacks in pvp

Honestly the people whining about our one defense mechanic are the only thing that needs to be adjusted.

The biggest whiners tend to be nightblades, because we don’t die in one shot.

no actually thats not the issue ive tested it. your "ONE DEFENSE" is not a whining topic its tested to be overperforming. if you can tank a mechanic that is meant to kill you in one shot if your not speced to be a tank there is an issue with it. there was even one point where i tested it against a buddy of mines nightblade i had a 9k shield that ate a 14k lethal arrow like it was dirt. whether that was a bug or what i dont know. but they need to be nerfed alot more than 10% a whole lot more than 10% they need taken down about 50%. wards are litterally to powerful.

Yeah, it actually sounds like you have no clue what you're talking about.

really go try it yourself youll see i really do know what im talking about. the only ones protecting it are the ones that dont want their overperforming ability to get nerfed. you still have power surge for great health sustain. why in gods name do you think you need a shield that gives you health that rivals a tank? the thresh hold on one shot mechanics for non tanks are around 16k which if done right you can easily beat that cap. so explain why you need a shield of ungodly proportions and i might entertain the fact that it doesnt need knocked down more than 10-20%. ive already tested everything there is to test about shields with my own sorc so i know what shields can and cannot withstand.

I play a stam sorc and if it is certain that the shield of the sorcery margika is well it has been nerve already.

And if we were to talk about survival, we should rather talk about the NB and cape shadow skill completely stupid in a PvP game or dodge to excess among other things

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

I'm surprised Nightblade players arent happy Sorc might get a small buff (not that this patch is a pure buff far from it) but they so OP right now they must be getting bored)

And how on earth are people calculating rune cage as a 10k hit - like seriously? On an Emp build perhaps lol.

Anyway thread will run on, its clear what the salient points are but think people trying to drown that out

10k requires a pretty suboptimal setup (outside a Xv1 scenario where you can survive without many defensive skills), but with 5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan for example you get 8235 tooltip on it. If you go for a less proc oriented setup with focus on stats, you can get 9202 on it (i.e. 5x Necropotence 5x Destruction Mastery/Shacklebreaker 2x Slimecraw).

And there's certainly ways to get even higher tooltip, i.e. Alchemist builds & other spell dmg oriented setups.


Not everyone plays a sustain build in this game and if you theorycraft expecting only sustain builds to hit you you're in for an unpleasant surprise... that's one big reason why gank builds work: many people don't take high dmg builds into account when calculating their builds' mitigation & survivability aspects.

Please, can you stop speaking about non viable build ?

Sorc need to be set up around regen because there defenses are the most expensive of the game (streak +shieldstacking).

"5x Caluurion 5x Necropotence 2x Zaan " this isn't viable in openworld.

You are thinking about duel builds made to fight in 1v1 only.

A good sorc set up have a rune cage tooltip of 8k.

This is an exemple of a strong viable sorc set up. (Didn't found clockxork city citrus filet (45.5k magicka with it if I had it) and jewlery is still purple)

"isn't viable in open world" I've heard that one before.

First about stamina builds in 2014 when this game was mockingly called "Elder Staves Online", then about heavy armor & magicka templar in 2016, then about bow builds & later about destro/resto light armor mDK.


Life is full of surprises.

The life right now is that running full damage low mag sustain low stamina low stamina sustain isn't viable. We don't discuss 2022 balance, but the summerset one.

Yet my destro/resto magicka DK is doing fine with zero sustain set bonuses, enchants or munduses, same as my mSorc (impossible to run out of resources basically before all opponents die, if I keep good elemental drain up time).


I always build around maximum damage minimal sustain on every serious build I create (and upload on youtube btw) and it has worked for me since 2014.

If your expecation when getting outnumbered is to maybe get 1 kill and then die - yes it´s vaible.
Otherwise it´s not.

You run a dueling build (infight sustain with eledrain) for cyro and set your expectations accordingly and claim to be successful with it - because it matches what you expect from it.
Your expectations limit what the class can do in this case.

Except that I have never ever made a single "dueling build" in this game & I've uploaded multiple videos of me 1vX'ing multiple people (not "kill one then die") with minimal sustain on multiple classes.

Please explain why Sorc is different, especially when you factor in Streak & the new Meditate skill. And Undo ultimate.


And please understand my scepticism towards any "X or Y won't work!" statements after listening for over half a year to people telling me a bow build wouldn't work in PvP, or that light armor destro/resto mDK wouldn't work in open world.

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Except that I have never ever made a single "dueling build" in this game & I've uploaded multiple videos of me 1vX'ing multiple people (not "kill one then die") with minimal sustain on multiple classes.

Please explain why Sorc is different, especially when you factor in Streak & the new Meditate skill. And Undo ultimate.


And please understand my scepticism towards any "X or Y won't work!" statements after listening for over half a year to people telling me a bow build wouldn't work in PvP, or that light armor destro/resto mDK wouldn't work in open world.

You create your builds with the same mindset as a dueling player.

You can 1vX on those builds aswell - i´ve done it on petsorc, magblade and stamsorc - if you meet the right opponents. These type of build will however generally fall short when facing too many opponents for the build to handle or opponents that play above average.

Sorc is different in regard that sorc runs preemptive defense and for that reason has higher (way higher) static magica cost than other classes (you´ll generally start fights with less magica).
You know the reason why dropping shields is not adviseable very well yourself.
Also the sorc spell arsenal is the least magica efficient in the entire game (looking at total healing/dmg done per point of resource cost compared to magblade and DK resources spent/s average about 30 to 40% higher on sorc).

A competent opponent will already not let you netgain resources with dark deal infight (you´ll only trade here). Idk how you expect that working with medidate. Not going into meta discussions here about how darkdeal openworld gets enabled by high regen builds in the first place.

There is no reason to be sceptic - i´m not saying x y won´t work - because it´ll work for you as your expectations are limited by your gameplay approach.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Except that I have never ever made a single "dueling build" in this game & I've uploaded multiple videos of me 1vX'ing multiple people (not "kill one then die") with minimal sustain on multiple classes.

Please explain why Sorc is different, especially when you factor in Streak & the new Meditate skill. And Undo ultimate.


And please understand my scepticism towards any "X or Y won't work!" statements after listening for over half a year to people telling me a bow build wouldn't work in PvP, or that light armor destro/resto mDK wouldn't work in open world.

You create your builds with the same mindset as a dueling player.

If I was, I'd be running popular sets like Shadowrend, Duroks, Legion etc. I'd be playing S&B on mDK & definitely not medium armor on my stamina builds.

"Minimum sustain" is not just some dueling mindset, I've been making builds with that philosophy in mind long before duels even existed in this game.

I just don't like spending lots of time killing people (which is also why I have an intense dislike of duels & the tank meta in them).

Derra wrote: »

You can 1vX on those builds aswell - i´ve done it on petsorc, magblade and stamsorc - if you meet the right opponents. These type of build will however generally fall short when facing too many opponents for the build to handle or opponents that play above average.

Actually my mDK for example performs way better in open world than it does in duels (in duels it can be too squishy vs some builds like magicka NB for example).

My bowblade also performs far better in open world than it does in duels... you've seen it. It also doesn't care about opponent's skill level in open world (or about how many opponents there are, thanks to stealth).


Generally though, any non-stealth build has problems in open world vs too many opponents (except maybe bombblade in specific scenarios), or against multiple skilled opponents. That's how 1vX works with most builds, you kill multiple less skilled players.

Expecting to be able to 1vX multiple good players... well, maybe I'm not the one whose mindset needs a closer look at.
Good players don't get 1vX'd (except if they get one shot from stealth because they build squishy).

Derra wrote: »

Sorc is different in regard that sorc runs preemptive defense and for that reason has higher (way higher) static magica cost than other classes (you´ll generally start fights with less magica).
You know the reason why dropping shields is not adviseable very well yourself.
Also the sorc spell arsenal is the least magica efficient in the entire game (looking at total healing/dmg done per point of resource cost compared to magblade and DK resources spent/s average about 30 to 40% higher on sorc).

A competent opponent will already not let you netgain resources with dark deal infight (you´ll only trade here). Idk how you expect that working with medidate. Not going into meta discussions here about how darkdeal openworld gets enabled by high regen builds in the first place.

I'm keeping 100% uptime on Hardened/Harness on PTS right now (not in combat), I'm not falling below 90% magicka with 1282 magicka regen (no vampirism or potions).

I have 50k magicka pool & can erase anyone within a few seconds with Zaan+Caluurion+Rune Cage & Frag.

I have Streak to get far, far out of anyone's range & then sneak->Meditate to full resources after killing a few opponents and losing maybe 50% of my magicka pool.

I'm still not really getting why it wouldn't work. I'm not looking at tanking people for extended amounts of time, I'm not looking at spending 15 minutes kiting people just to get one or two kills. That's not how I play this game.

Derra wrote: »

There is no reason to be sceptic - i´m not saying x y won´t work - because it´ll work for you as your expectations are limited by your gameplay approach.

Are you sure it's me whose expectations are limited by my gameplay approach?

Majority of people out there play sustain/tank builds, it's easy to think that's the only viable way to play the game when you see everyone doing it.

I've been trying with my builds & videos to show people that other playstyles are not just possible, but very viable as well (and even better in many cases).

It'd be good for the gameplay if we didn't face the same sustain builds everywhere, that leads to monotonous & boring combat.

Shantu

Kudos to the devs who try to digest the massive feedback. I would consider myself a slightly better than average playing a magsorc and certain no expert on the dizzying array of metrics involved, for whatever it's worth, I do have some very general feedback.

1. My magsorc definitely feels a bit more powerful in Summerset. Thank you!
2. The initial buildup of frags is definitely not 1 second. Annoyingly, more like 2. Be nice if it were actually 1.
3. For sorcs built to maximize dps, while trying to be an effective damage dealer, magicka sustain in boss fights has always been a major pain in the butt. While fine on mobs, I find myself constantly annoyed with being overly concerned with sustain issues. Have the same issue on my mag Templar.
4. Would be nice if the initial damage of Haunting Curse was immediate, instead of a 3.5 second delay. Except in long boss fights, the second burst after 8 seconds is generally useless. Be more useful if the curse that haunts them is more in line with an effect that lowers their spell resistance.
5. I've always found the need to double bar some abilities (Bound Aegis, Inner Light, Pets, etc.) needlessly annoying and disruptive to game play. The same goes for those skills that must be on the active bar to gain XP. I really wish 1 slotting on either bar would suffice.
6. I like that Bound Aegis is no longer a toggle, but I miss my purple haze, and the 3 second block boost is pretty worthless. At a mere 3 seconds, I'll never use it. Giving it 6 seconds would be more useful.
7. Thanks for the slight increase in Conjured Ward. Trying to stay alive and being and effective damage dealer (high magicka, spell damage enchants, gear with high crit/damage boosts, low health and sustain, etc.) with tough bosses usually means running perma-shield. Any help in durability in that regard is very welcome.

Dracane

Are people really complaining about a 2-3k rune cage against squishy targets in pvp ?

Feanor

I'm keeping 100% uptime on Hardened/Harness on PTS right now (not in combat), I'm not falling below 90% magicka with 1282 magicka regen (no vampirism or potions).

I have 50k magicka pool & can erase anyone within a few seconds with Zaan+Caluurion+Rune Cage & Frag.

Maybe try a build that isn’t carried by proc damage. Of course you don’t have sustain issues if you don’t need your skills to secure a kill.

Lord-Otto

Dracane wrote: »

Are people really complaining about a 2-3k rune cage against squishy targets in pvp ?

I think some people just don't like being put in a tiny cage, unable to move. Some people might find this... entertaining...
>;3

(my Cage has 9.5k tooltip, btw)