Psijic Order Skill called "Undo"

Kybotica · March 2018

It seems to me that this doesn't impact other players at all, so you'd basically get to restart your damage dump cycle if you tried to burst down a player or enemy in cyro. Do your normal DPS rotation, hit them super hard and fast, reset using rewind, repeat.

SaintSubwayy · March 2018

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Sounds very stronk. Could be used as an anti gank ability. Could also be used as any setup to buy time or get back from a critical mistake. I like it. But without a cooldown, how will they balance it?

Make it an ult, then theres a cooldown (ultgen)

ak_pvp · March 2018

Cadbury wrote: »

Oh my, yass!

Please tell me it works similar to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ze6hZEIF824

It's nothing like it unfortunately. Maybe bites the dust, because whatever happened still happened you just get moved back. Neither is the stop time. But I do have a concept post that has a similar function to za warudo.

gepe87 · March 2018

Mighty masters of magic, reclusive magic users and scholars and named their unique time travel spell..."Undo". I hope they change it...

Artheiron · March 2018

how do you guys think they'll make undo work in pvp or even multiplayer pve?

Jura23 · March 2018

Artheiron wrote: »

how do you guys think they'll make undo work in pvp or even multiplayer pve?

It will be utter mess I'm afraid.

ak_pvp · March 2018

Artheiron wrote: »

how do you guys think they'll make undo work in pvp or even multiplayer pve?

Port back like shade, restore resources to what they were.

4s isn't much.

CavalryPK · March 2018

I just cannot shake the feeling that this skill line is not gonna be used in pvp.

Artheiron · March 2018

ak_pvp wrote: »

Artheiron wrote: »

how do you guys think they'll make undo work in pvp or even multiplayer pve?

Port back like shade, restore resources to what they were.

4s isn't much.

that's not exactly time travelling then, when you reverse time, things and other people should be reversed too

oh that'd be fun in pvp

...and make the game a legit p2w game.

Jura23 · March 2018

Kybotica wrote: »

It seems to me that this doesn't impact other players at all, so you'd basically get to restart your damage dump cycle if you tried to burst down a player or enemy in cyro. Do your normal DPS rotation, hit them super hard and fast, reset using rewind, repeat.

Good point. If this sklil actually undid also the dmg and effects you caused during those 4 seconds, it would somewhat make sense.

Waffennacht · March 2018

I don't see a problem at all. Almost all of the burst combos incorporate ults or sets, seeing as you just used your ult and it doesn't affect sets, it's really either a semi spot heal, or a resource tool.

Most PvP builds are already building with enough sustain and 4 seconds isn't a whole lot of offensive capabilities.

It's, however, very powerful with shield stacking.

You burst me to low health, I cast the expensive Shields (approx 8kish). Cast undo. Have my resources back, health back, and my wards

Probably would be best used on a PvP healer with Jorvuld (longer Shields) esc build. Or backbarred Magicka build, so when heavily pressured it can reset.

The timing of using it reactively outside of my above described would be difficult, just if too much time passes es you could undo into a situation no different than how you started.

Knowledge · March 2018

" Okay guys we're going to run our Proximity Detonation Comp. I need all 40 of you to slot undo and we'll get going here in a second. " - Cyrodil commander, Sometime in June.

Ackwalan · March 2018

You don't really go back in time, so you can redo all your attacks again. It's just a resource reset with a teleport. So you can't cast proxie det have it go off, hit undo and have it go off again. But you could use a gap closer, hit undo, and use the gap closer again. Or, you just got hit by a large attack, hit undo and get healed up. It will be interesting, but tricky to time just right to get game changing affects to happen.

rimmidimdim · March 2018

Sounds like a skill that you are one cc away from completely screwing it, and the user.

Knowledge · March 2018

Ackwalan wrote: »

You don't really go back in time, so you can redo all your attacks again. It's just a resource reset with a teleport. So you can't cast proxie det have it go off, hit undo and have it go off again. But you could use a gap closer, hit undo, and use the gap closer again. Or, you just got hit by a large attack, hit undo and get healed up. It will be interesting, but tricky to time just right to get game changing affects to happen.

You could have people teleport in and proximity det, while being attacked or standing in AOEs, then Undo to get their HP back.

It's essentially a massive disengage with a heal.

Ackwalan · March 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

You don't really go back in time, so you can redo all your attacks again. It's just a resource reset with a teleport. So you can't cast proxie det have it go off, hit undo and have it go off again. But you could use a gap closer, hit undo, and use the gap closer again. Or, you just got hit by a large attack, hit undo and get healed up. It will be interesting, but tricky to time just right to get game changing affects to happen.

You could have people teleport in and proximity det, while being attacked or standing in AOEs, then Undo to get their HP back.

It's essentially a massive disengage with a heal.

You could also use negate magic instead of undo. Undo is an ult, so it won't be spammable.

Knowledge · March 2018

Ackwalan wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

You don't really go back in time, so you can redo all your attacks again. It's just a resource reset with a teleport. So you can't cast proxie det have it go off, hit undo and have it go off again. But you could use a gap closer, hit undo, and use the gap closer again. Or, you just got hit by a large attack, hit undo and get healed up. It will be interesting, but tricky to time just right to get game changing affects to happen.

You could have people teleport in and proximity det, while being attacked or standing in AOEs, then Undo to get their HP back.

It's essentially a massive disengage with a heal.

You could also use negate magic instead of undo. Undo is an ult, so it won't be spammable.

You don't need it to be spammable. There's many "broken" uses for this ability in PVP. Here's a rough example. Your large raid moves into a would-be unfavorable position for the enemy which they are then engaged in. They then use Undo and get themselves out of that unfavorable position or use their previous position to bait the enemy into an unfavorable position.

If used properly it can decide engagements.

Ackwalan · March 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

You don't really go back in time, so you can redo all your attacks again. It's just a resource reset with a teleport. So you can't cast proxie det have it go off, hit undo and have it go off again. But you could use a gap closer, hit undo, and use the gap closer again. Or, you just got hit by a large attack, hit undo and get healed up. It will be interesting, but tricky to time just right to get game changing affects to happen.

You could have people teleport in and proximity det, while being attacked or standing in AOEs, then Undo to get their HP back.

It's essentially a massive disengage with a heal.

You could also use negate magic instead of undo. Undo is an ult, so it won't be spammable.

You don't need it to be spammable. There's many "broken" uses for this ability in PVP. Here's a rough example. Your large raid moves into a would-be unfavorable position for the enemy which they are then engaged in. They then use Undo and get themselves out of that unfavorable position or use their previous position to bait the enemy into an unfavorable position.

If used properly it can decide engagements.

A whole raid all using undo for a 1 time position change is no big deal. Right now, there are whole raids running aoe heals and destroy ult. That is more of a problem then undo.

Knowledge · March 2018

Ackwalan wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

You don't really go back in time, so you can redo all your attacks again. It's just a resource reset with a teleport. So you can't cast proxie det have it go off, hit undo and have it go off again. But you could use a gap closer, hit undo, and use the gap closer again. Or, you just got hit by a large attack, hit undo and get healed up. It will be interesting, but tricky to time just right to get game changing affects to happen.

You could have people teleport in and proximity det, while being attacked or standing in AOEs, then Undo to get their HP back.

It's essentially a massive disengage with a heal.

You could also use negate magic instead of undo. Undo is an ult, so it won't be spammable.

You don't need it to be spammable. There's many "broken" uses for this ability in PVP. Here's a rough example. Your large raid moves into a would-be unfavorable position for the enemy which they are then engaged in. They then use Undo and get themselves out of that unfavorable position or use their previous position to bait the enemy into an unfavorable position.

If used properly it can decide engagements.

A whole raid all using undo for a 1 time position change is no big deal. Right now, there are whole raids running aoe heals and destroy ult. That is more of a problem then undo.

I don't think you can fully appreciate the benefit of Undo for tactical positioning. You're underestimating the benefit.

To ensure that your whole host may withstand the brunt of the enemy's attack and remain unshaken—this is effected by maneuvers direct and indirect - Sun Tzu

In all fighting, the direct method may be used for joining battle, but indirect methods will be needed in order to secure victory. - Sun Tzu

Indirect tactics, efficiently applied, are inexhaustible as Heaven and Earth, unending as the flow of rivers and streams; like the sun and moon, they end but to begin anew; like the four seasons, they pass away to return once more. - Sun Tzu

In battle, there are not more than two methods of attack: the direct and the indirect; yet these two in combination give rise to an endless series of maneuvers - Sun Tzu

The quality of decision is like the well-timed swoop of a falcon which enables it to strike and destroy its victim. - Sun Tzu

Simulated disorder postulates perfect discipline, simulated fear postulates courage; simulated weakness postulates strength. - Sun Tzu

Thus one who is skillful at keeping the enemy on the move maintains deceitful appearances, according to which the enemy will act. - Sun Tzu

He sacrifices something, that the enemy may snatch at it. - Sun Tzu

Minno · March 2018

CavalryPK wrote: »

I just cannot shake the feeling that this skill line is not gonna be used in pvp.

That's because they will say "skilline unusable in cyro. Must be in pve or BGs to use".

Then everyone will be in BGs again lol

Saucy_Jack · March 2018

So it just rolls back the player who uses it, and not the opponent?

I mean, if you have enough magicka to use a high-damage spell and then the undo, then you can just use the high damage spell, then undo, and then have the resources to do the high damage spell and undo again. Rinse, repeat.

waitwhat · March 2018

It might be useful for tanks, but you'd better keep track of where you were 4 seconds ago. Against The Warrior you could end up resetting yourself back into "totally screwed" range.

Yamenstein · March 2018

Artheiron wrote: »

how do you guys think they'll make undo work in pvp or even multiplayer pve?

Well it's an ultimate, so not sure how often people will be using it, especially if the cost is high. In PvP if someone uses it at the wrong time they could be in a worse position than if they didn't use it.

In PvE it might be good, though the same issue exists when it comes to using it at a wrong time. But resource management isn't that bad, not bad enough you need to slot in an ultimate that will undo 4 seconds. How much magicka are you going to spam in 4 seconds ? Especially if you are following some sort of rotation.

Imagine doing a dungeon and then just mindlessly activating it and going back into a enemy AOE with less health and resources.

It's not like you can use the skill when are dead. At most it could possibly give you a second chance if you are at low health, but always a risk.

Donari · March 2018

Knowledge wrote: »

It's a heal that also regenerates all lost stamina and magicka. In addition it teleports you back to wherever you were four seconds ago. That's not just a heal. A skilled player could easily make very good use of Undo.

Or it removes stamina and magicka (and health) you just regen'd in the last four seconds. Though yes, it will take a lot of skill and reflexes to make good use of something in that short a time interval and at the right time so you pinpoint back 4 seconds to a good place rather than a horrible place.

Knowledge wrote: »

Ackwalan wrote: »

A whole raid all using undo for a 1 time position change is no big deal. Right now, there are whole raids running aoe heals and destroy ult. That is more of a problem then undo.

I don't think you can fully appreciate the benefit of Undo for tactical positioning. You're underestimating the benefit.

I think it would be fairly impressive for a whole raid to manage to Undo at the exact same time and have it be a good thing for every member to have done so.

MakoFore wrote: »

to be honest- im more curious that they called a skill line- in a fantasy world "undo" - likes seriously?! its a word thats only become our vernacular in the past 20 years. upcoming skills : "reformat", "update driver" and "nerf"....weird man.

maybe revoke or invert or something.

Rich did say it was pretty much their working name for it right now and strongly implied they'd have something better in place by release.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · March 2018

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

Oh, no! A measly 4 seconds.

Imagine you were about to die and you used it preventing your death and giving you back vital resources. Or you used an ability that cost tremendous amounts of resources and used it to get them back to do it again.

Imagine trying to kill some of the already tanky players/zergs who can use that skill as a reset to full resources and hp. Looks stupid and OP.

They are so tanky you almost kill them in 4 seconds?

Can you read?

I guess I’m simple minded. You complained about tanky people using this to fully heal. It only takes them back 4 seconds. Were you running these tanky people over in 4 seconds? If it was a group of tanky people I would think having a single healer would be more effective then having a bunch of people run undo as their ultimate. Most people use their ultimate to set up the kill not sit on it Incase someone suddenly almost kills them.

I mean I guess maybe your group jumped in and went all destro ultimate on them, and bingo bongo they used undo and now you are standing there looking stupid. But really that seems more like an outplayed thing then a broken op thing.

It is only 4 seconds and it is an ultimate. Like these examples people keep coming up with, I can cast some really expensive stuff and then use it and then do it again! Sure you can... but you loose your ultimate. Seems like a fair trade off. 4 seconds of free cast at the cost of your ultimate.

Seems more like an interesting and mildly useful gimmick to me. Not, omg it is so broken.

Knowledge · March 2018

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

Abysswarrior45 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

PelinalWhitestrake wrote: »

Oh, no! A measly 4 seconds.

Imagine you were about to die and you used it preventing your death and giving you back vital resources. Or you used an ability that cost tremendous amounts of resources and used it to get them back to do it again.

Imagine trying to kill some of the already tanky players/zergs who can use that skill as a reset to full resources and hp. Looks stupid and OP.

They are so tanky you almost kill them in 4 seconds?

Can you read?

I guess I’m simple minded. You complained about tanky people using this to fully heal. It only takes them back 4 seconds. Were you running these tanky people over in 4 seconds? If it was a group of tanky people I would think having a single healer would be more effective then having a bunch of people run undo as their ultimate. Most people use their ultimate to set up the kill not sit on it Incase someone suddenly almost kills them.

I mean I guess maybe your group jumped in and went all destro ultimate on them, and bingo bongo they used undo and now you are standing there looking stupid. But really that seems more like an outplayed thing then a broken op thing.

It is only 4 seconds and it is an ultimate. Like these examples people keep coming up with, I can cast some really expensive stuff and then use it and then do it again! Sure you can... but you loose your ultimate. Seems like a fair trade off. 4 seconds of free cast at the cost of your ultimate.

Seems more like an interesting and mildly useful gimmick to me. Not, omg it is so broken.

I think you're underestimating how long four seconds really is in PVP.

Jarryzzt · March 2018

My first question is actually purely technical.

Suppose the Undo skill works exactly as the OP describes - your avatar moves to the coordinates it occupied 4 seconds ago and magicka/stamina are restored to that 4-seconds-ago-level.

This means that the server needs to keep track not only of your current position and magicka/stamina levels, but, at all times, the same numbers for "4 seconds ago" on a rolling basis. And moreover, it must do so for - at best, all players with the skill slotted, at worst all players (depending on whether the game can make that level of distinction).

People are complaining about server loads, lag, et cetera now, especially in PVP. What happens when the server starts keeping track of all the "4-second shadows" on top of its regular workload?

Oh, but of course I am completely confident that ZOS will have thoroughly tested the skill and completely resolved any and all attendant technical issues before rolling it out...

The second thing that immediately comes to my mind is that this is perfect for corner sniping. [A very, very common thing in World of Tanks.] Peek around a corner (or go from outside engagement range into engagement range), burst, "snap back" with the Undo skill while resetting resources to pre-burst levels. Granted, it probably won't be quite as effective in PVE since presumably Undo won't reset aggro (otherwise the stupidity quotient increases exponentially). In PVP, however...

...at the very least I can see more than a few angry forum threads on the subject. Whether justified or not (since people will whine regardless, that being the first rule of MMO design).

Eh. We shall see how they will implement the skill. The whole skill line, in fact.

Knowledge · March 2018

Jarryzzt wrote: »

My first question is actually purely technical.

Suppose the Undo skill works exactly as the OP describes - your avatar moves to the coordinates it occupied 4 seconds ago and magicka/stamina are restored to that 4-seconds-ago-level.

This means that the server needs to keep track not only of your current position and magicka/stamina levels, but, at all times, the same numbers for "4 seconds ago" on a rolling basis. And moreover, it must do so for - at best, all players with the skill slotted, at worst all players (depending on whether the game can make that level of distinction).

People are complaining about server loads, lag, et cetera now, especially in PVP. What happens when the server starts keeping track of all the "4-second shadows" on top of its regular workload?

Oh, but of course I am completely confident that ZOS will have thoroughly tested the skill and completely resolved any and all attendant technical issues before rolling it out...

The second thing that immediately comes to my mind is that this is perfect for corner sniping. [A very, very common thing in World of Tanks.] Peek around a corner (or go from outside engagement range into engagement range), burst, "snap back" with the Undo skill while resetting resources to pre-burst levels. Granted, it probably won't be quite as effective in PVE since presumably Undo won't reset aggro (otherwise the stupidity quotient increases exponentially). In PVP, however...

...at the very least I can see more than a few angry forum threads on the subject. Whether justified or not (since people will whine regardless, that being the first rule of MMO design).

Eh. We shall see how they will implement the skill. The whole skill line, in fact.

I didn't say this is how it works it was stated on the ESO twitch stream I only typed what was stated here.

houjo2000b16_ESO · March 2018

An ult that restores hp, stam, magicka to 4 seconds ago.

That's junk.

Sure, you can save yourself from a gank where your foe has used all their CDs, or restore your resource after you've unloaded.

But you've also just lost any other possible ult in that slot, and you need to either have a build that used all their resource fast, or be regularly in situations where you're going to get burst down fast.

For all the people complaining about it now, I guarantee 90% of them are going to try it a few times, realize they don't know how to use it effectively (or the situation to use it defensively is so few and far between), and never touch it again.

Sheezabeast · March 2018

I wanna know what the morphs are gonna be.