End of AD alliance storyline (spoiler)

fgoron2000 · December 2017

I'm not certain how the spoiler function works, so please consider the entire post as a spoiler. Just to be safe, I'll leave several lines blank first.
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There have been previous discussions about Razum-dar's appearance after he was left for dead in Gates of Fire. However, I didn't find any current threads and didn't wanna necro an old one. I just finished an alliance questline for the first time and it just happened to be AD. Many players were surprised that Raz was alive, and maintain that they were not given any explaination and that this was a blooper of sorts. Some may have missed Raz's own conversation in Dune at the ascention of the mane, while others may have missed Raz completely, since there was no quest pointer to him. Others tried to explain that what was perceived as an oversight really wasn't, as the confused players just missed the conversation and there was no repeat of it (the one-time-only explanation was the true oversight). I maintain that under a certain circumstance, it really was an oversight by ZOS, based on what I just experienced. If I have missed anything, please point it out to me.

The quests of discussion -

Gates of Fire - an optional side quest that can be done at any time or not at all.
This is the circlet quest where you choose between the circlet and Razum-dar.

The Den of Lorkhaj - this is the end of the AD alliance story questline
This is the quest with ascention of the new mane and everyone including Razum-dar is there for the ceremony & wrap-up dialogs.
There is an optional conversation with Raz where he explains his escape at the end of Gates of Fire, but you have to choose it, there's no quest pointer to him.

Messages Across Tamriel - part of the main quest
This comes after the end of the AD alliance questline.
Razum-dar is alive with no explanation of his escape because he was prepared to explain in the above quest. Also, any other quests that he subsequently appears in will not likely have any explanation either.

If a person tries to intentionally follow a linear and chronological order of quests, then you would do these quests in the above order as follows:

1 - Gates of Fire - Razum-dar is left to die, but his death does or does not happen, off-camera.
2 - The Den of Lorkhaj - occurs after Gates of Fire, since, if the player destroyed the circlet, Razum-dar's appearance is a surprise, and he explains his escape if asked.
3 - Messages Across Tamriel - continuation of the story where MQ and alliance story merge, Raz had previously explained his escape if asked, and no further discussion is needed or offered.

-- BUT --

What if you do the quests in the following order?

The Den of Lorkhaj
Gates of Fire
Messages Across Tamriel

Now, you did the quest in which Raz is in a position to explain his presence if anybody asks him BEFORE you even did the quest in which he is left for dead. So, there is no explanation why he was alive because there was no reason for it. And then after you later choose to let him die, you then later still see him alive with no explanation. This is the order that I did these quests, and I did speak with Raz in Dune, and I always go through all dialog options the first time. There was nothing about Raz explaining why he was still alive. That would have been truly confusing.

Under this cicumstance, I believe it truly is an oversight by ZOS, or am I still missing something? They should have made sure that an explanation was at least available to the player after Gates of Fire was completed, no matter what order the quests were done.

VaranisArano · December 2017

So when these quests were done, you have no choice but to do them in order. Before One Tamriel, quests were locked to a certain level and you could not skip around in a zone or do quests out of order because it was very clear what level you were expected to do the quests. Doing quests out of order resulted in lost exp and enemies that were too easy or too hard for you to fight.

So could/should ZOS have added some clarity to certain dialogue options like "Raz, what the heck, I thought you were dead?"? Sure, they could have.
But then we have to consider how badly messed up the whole Dominion questline becomes if you do Greenshade before Grahtwood or Grahtwood before Auridon.

Vestige: "Uh, sorry about killing your lich-ified corpse back in Greenshade, Prince Naemon." Or in Auridon, "Your Majesty, Queen Ayrenn, this seems like an excellent time to tell you that your brother, his wife, and Vicereeve Pelidil are all a bunch of traitors to the crown."

Finally, the spoiler tags are [ spoiler ] and [ /spoiler ] without the extra spaces between the brackets. If you use the quote function on what I've written here, you should see the spoiler tags around my spoiler.

fgoron2000 · January 2018

Thanks for the spoiler info, I'll have to try that out next time. About the questing however, I'm not talking about doing zones out of order, I'm talking about storyline quests in a single zone that are going to follow a linear order, and side quests in the same zone, that can be done at any time before, during, after, or not at all. It's also possible for quests to be started but not completed before other quests are accepted. Based on the content of these quests, it appears that story-wise, Gates of Fire should be done before The Den of Lorkhaj, and both before Messages Across Tamriel. But if I'm understanding what you're saying, I would have no choice but to do these quests in linear order of Gates of Fire, The Den of Lorkhaj, and Messages Across Tamriel. However, I did do Den, then Gates, then Messages in that order, and I'm certain of this, because when I saw Raz and spoke to him during Den which was part of the alliance story, I didn't yet know about the potential for him to be left for dead in Gates, which was a side quest. In addition, I have an addon that tracks quests being accepted and completed, and the timestamp of each respective quest verified that I did them in the order that I stated above.

Hanokihs · January 2018

I think the only way to circumvent this problem is to make that quest at the Gates an essential step that's part of the story. I agree it's an oversight, though; even if you take the alternate route, the sequence is still weird.

fgoron2000 · January 2018

Hanokihs wrote: »

I think the only way to circumvent this problem is to make that quest at the Gates an essential step that's part of the story. I agree it's an oversight, though; even if you take the alternate route, the sequence is still weird.

absolutely, i agree...adding additional raz explanations in quests like messages across tamriel could resolve it, but there's still a chance a player misses it. if you make gates part of the AD questline, problem solved...

VaranisArano · January 2018

fgoron2000 wrote: »

Thanks for the spoiler info, I'll have to try that out next time. About the questing however, I'm not talking about doing zones out of order, I'm talking about storyline quests in a single zone that are going to follow a linear order, and side quests in the same zone, that can be done at any time before, during, after, or not at all. It's also possible for quests to be started but not completed before other quests are accepted. Based on the content of these quests, it appears that story-wise, Gates of Fire should be done before The Den of Lorkhaj, and both before Messages Across Tamriel. But if I'm understanding what you're saying, I would have no choice but to do these quests in linear order of Gates of Fire, The Den of Lorkhaj, and Messages Across Tamriel. However, I did do Den, then Gates, then Messages in that order, and I'm certain of this, because when I saw Raz and spoke to him during Den which was part of the alliance story, I didn't yet know about the potential for him to be left for dead in Gates, which was a side quest. In addition, I have an addon that tracks quests being accepted and completed, and the timestamp of each respective quest verified that I did them in the order that I stated above.

My point was that before One Tamriel, you couldn't do even the side quests out of order. The order was mandated by the leveled quests. With One Tamriel, suddenly its possible to do the side quests out of order and then go back to old side quests. ZOS added some dialogue for alternate quest paths but they didn't do it for everything because that would be an enormous amount of work.

Perhaps ZOS could/should add some transitory dialogue for people who did the quests "out-of-order" because there isn't a required order anymore. Or perhaps its just a side effect of changing over from One Tamriel and people who do the quests "out-of-the-old-order" are just going to have to balance the freedom of going everywhere and doing everything with sacrificing some story continuity.

Practically speaking, it probably has more to do with whether ZOS has the resources, time, and the contract with the voice actor to do any extra lines.

fgoron2000 · January 2018

makes sense...

Enodoc · January 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

fgoron2000 wrote: »

Thanks for the spoiler info, I'll have to try that out next time. About the questing however, I'm not talking about doing zones out of order, I'm talking about storyline quests in a single zone that are going to follow a linear order, and side quests in the same zone, that can be done at any time before, during, after, or not at all. It's also possible for quests to be started but not completed before other quests are accepted. Based on the content of these quests, it appears that story-wise, Gates of Fire should be done before The Den of Lorkhaj, and both before Messages Across Tamriel. But if I'm understanding what you're saying, I would have no choice but to do these quests in linear order of Gates of Fire, The Den of Lorkhaj, and Messages Across Tamriel. However, I did do Den, then Gates, then Messages in that order, and I'm certain of this, because when I saw Raz and spoke to him during Den which was part of the alliance story, I didn't yet know about the potential for him to be left for dead in Gates, which was a side quest. In addition, I have an addon that tracks quests being accepted and completed, and the timestamp of each respective quest verified that I did them in the order that I stated above.

My point was that before One Tamriel, you couldn't do even the side quests out of order. The order was mandated by the leveled quests. With One Tamriel, suddenly its possible to do the side quests out of order and then go back to old side quests. ZOS added some dialogue for alternate quest paths but they didn't do it for everything because that would be an enormous amount of work.

Perhaps ZOS could/should add some transitory dialogue for people who did the quests "out-of-order" because there isn't a required order anymore. Or perhaps its just a side effect of changing over from One Tamriel and people who do the quests "out-of-the-old-order" are just going to have to balance the freedom of going everywhere and doing everything with sacrificing some story continuity.

Practically speaking, it probably has more to do with whether ZOS has the resources, time, and the contract with the voice actor to do any extra lines.

You technically could still do the side quests out of order, it just really encouraged you not to by marking them different colours in the journal.

Hanokihs wrote: »

I think the only way to circumvent this problem is to make that quest at the Gates an essential step that's part of the story. I agree it's an oversight, though; even if you take the alternate route, the sequence is still weird.

I considered that back when I was making my thread on Alliance Story progression for exactly that reason, but I couldn't come up with any good reasons at all why it would be. It has absolutely no relevance at all to the Dark Mane or the Moon Hallowed, which is the sole focus of the zone storyline.

Hanokihs · January 2018

VaranisArano wrote: »

fgoron2000 wrote: »

Thanks for the spoiler info, I'll have to try that out next time. About the questing however, I'm not talking about doing zones out of order, I'm talking about storyline quests in a single zone that are going to follow a linear order, and side quests in the same zone, that can be done at any time before, during, after, or not at all. It's also possible for quests to be started but not completed before other quests are accepted. Based on the content of these quests, it appears that story-wise, Gates of Fire should be done before The Den of Lorkhaj, and both before Messages Across Tamriel. But if I'm understanding what you're saying, I would have no choice but to do these quests in linear order of Gates of Fire, The Den of Lorkhaj, and Messages Across Tamriel. However, I did do Den, then Gates, then Messages in that order, and I'm certain of this, because when I saw Raz and spoke to him during Den which was part of the alliance story, I didn't yet know about the potential for him to be left for dead in Gates, which was a side quest. In addition, I have an addon that tracks quests being accepted and completed, and the timestamp of each respective quest verified that I did them in the order that I stated above.

My point was that before One Tamriel, you couldn't do even the side quests out of order. The order was mandated by the leveled quests. With One Tamriel, suddenly its possible to do the side quests out of order and then go back to old side quests. ZOS added some dialogue for alternate quest paths but they didn't do it for everything because that would be an enormous amount of work.

Perhaps ZOS could/should add some transitory dialogue for people who did the quests "out-of-order" because there isn't a required order anymore. Or perhaps its just a side effect of changing over from One Tamriel and people who do the quests "out-of-the-old-order" are just going to have to balance the freedom of going everywhere and doing everything with sacrificing some story continuity.

Practically speaking, it probably has more to do with whether ZOS has the resources, time, and the contract with the voice actor to do any extra lines.

Before One Tamriel, this was typically the case because the quests had levels associated with them and you were encouraged to remain within range. But that didn't mean you had to discover all relevant places beyond what the main story and the faction story told you to do - and this isn't actually a faction quest that anyone mentions Raz being on. He says nothing about it, the Queen says nothing about it, and none of the other Eyes appear to mention anything is happening at that relatively out-of-the-way location on the map. Unless you spy it looking for the nearby skyshard or already know about the location's importance, you wouldn't see it; it's not a point of interest or marked delve on the map.

I can only speculate that they intended to tie it in with some sort of, "Hey, I sent him on a mission but haven't heard back - go check on things, would you?" type message that points players at it, but either neglected to do it or never got around to it.

VaranisArano · January 2018

Hanokihs wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

fgoron2000 wrote: »

Thanks for the spoiler info, I'll have to try that out next time. About the questing however, I'm not talking about doing zones out of order, I'm talking about storyline quests in a single zone that are going to follow a linear order, and side quests in the same zone, that can be done at any time before, during, after, or not at all. It's also possible for quests to be started but not completed before other quests are accepted. Based on the content of these quests, it appears that story-wise, Gates of Fire should be done before The Den of Lorkhaj, and both before Messages Across Tamriel. But if I'm understanding what you're saying, I would have no choice but to do these quests in linear order of Gates of Fire, The Den of Lorkhaj, and Messages Across Tamriel. However, I did do Den, then Gates, then Messages in that order, and I'm certain of this, because when I saw Raz and spoke to him during Den which was part of the alliance story, I didn't yet know about the potential for him to be left for dead in Gates, which was a side quest. In addition, I have an addon that tracks quests being accepted and completed, and the timestamp of each respective quest verified that I did them in the order that I stated above.

My point was that before One Tamriel, you couldn't do even the side quests out of order. The order was mandated by the leveled quests. With One Tamriel, suddenly its possible to do the side quests out of order and then go back to old side quests. ZOS added some dialogue for alternate quest paths but they didn't do it for everything because that would be an enormous amount of work.

Perhaps ZOS could/should add some transitory dialogue for people who did the quests "out-of-order" because there isn't a required order anymore. Or perhaps its just a side effect of changing over from One Tamriel and people who do the quests "out-of-the-old-order" are just going to have to balance the freedom of going everywhere and doing everything with sacrificing some story continuity.

Practically speaking, it probably has more to do with whether ZOS has the resources, time, and the contract with the voice actor to do any extra lines.

Before One Tamriel, this was typically the case because the quests had levels associated with them and you were encouraged to remain within range. But that didn't mean you had to discover all relevant places beyond what the main story and the faction story told you to do - and this isn't actually a faction quest that anyone mentions Raz being on. He says nothing about it, the Queen says nothing about it, and none of the other Eyes appear to mention anything is happening at that relatively out-of-the-way location on the map. Unless you spy it looking for the nearby skyshard or already know about the location's importance, you wouldn't see it; it's not a point of interest or marked delve on the map.

I can only speculate that they intended to tie it in with some sort of, "Hey, I sent him on a mission but haven't heard back - go check on things, would you?" type message that points players at it, but either neglected to do it or never got around to it.

See, when I did it, I recall that location being right smack in front of where I needed to go from Point A to Point B to get work on the main Moonhallowed quest. Like, I walked up to the ruin, went "oh, this isn't the quest I need, I'll come back" and went around the ruin to get to the moonhallowed site. Then to go to the next main quest section, I would have needed to walk past the obvious ruin again with its enemies. So while I technically could walk right past it, I had plenty of opportunity to see that there was obviously a quest/activity to do there.

Which is not to say that everyone's experience is going to be the same, but when I did this quest before One Tamriel, the pathing of the quests took me right by the ruin such that I couldn't miss it. I could have chosen to skip it, but the location was right there where I was doing main quest stuff.