Fake role, it's not about "we're doing fine", it's about fairness

TheDarkShadow · December 2017

First, I want to make clear that I'm totally ok with people who know that they can solo dungeon and can carry no matter what group they get. They can queue as 3 roles as much as they want. Thank you for help pushing the queue faster and carry people.

Here I want to say about people who actually can't do ***. Yes we're doing fine, it's a simple normal dungeon. A DD carries the group doing 70% damage and 80% heal. But it's not fair for that DD who stay true to his role and have to wait 30m in the queue, then have to carry the whole group, while other just fake their role, get group with in 5m and tag along for the loot. It's like lying you are pregnant to get ahead of the line in the shop. Take a long and hard look at yourself on the mirror.

VaranisArano · December 2017

I agree. If you can actually do the roles you sign up for, go for it!

If you can't or aren't filling your role, I'm going to know you aren't doing what you signed up to do. Since I can probably compensate for it, then I'm probably more embarrassed for you than anything. Its kind of painful watching someone fail at their role.

DPS, its obvious when you take forever to kill adds.
Healers, its obvious when you can't/won't heal.
Tanks, its obvious when you can't/won't taunt.

Please note, this isn't me wanting to discourage new players from running dungeons! I set the bar pretty low for lew level and new players and I'm only looking for the basics of your role. Healers heal. Tanks taunt. DPS do damage. Its when you can't manage that basic part of the job that I start going all 0.o at you as I'm watching you fail at your role.

Acrolas · December 2017

I mean, really, if you're going to dance across the entire room with every single boss and not even tap a block even once... don't queue as a tank.

If you're not going to tap a single group heal the entire time, don't queue as a healer.

There's a difference between a half *** but earnest attempt and not doing anything at all in your role. I can respect half *** because it still makes my job 50% easier. Roles help create smoother runs, even on normal mode.

I may be a little more terse just coming off a serious train wreck of a pickup group, but it's not asking too much to at least pretend to care about the role you choose.

Saucy_Jack · December 2017

Well, for example. I have a max cp magplar, which I run (rightfully) as a healer.

I also have a level 15 DK alt that can't do ANYTHING. BUT, I can't join the queue unless I pick a role. So what do I pick? My alt sucks at tanking, sucks at DPS, and sucks at healing, because he's level 15. So I just pick a role at random and call it day. I don't do that to spite anyone; I do that because no matter what role I choose, I know my impact in the dungeon is going to be completely negligible.

Or should I do parses in order to find out that I do 20 dps vs 21 hps, and therefore should always queue as a healer?

TheDarkShadow · December 2017

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

Well, for example. I have a max cp magplar, which I run (rightfully) as a healer.

I also have a level 15 DK alt that can't do ANYTHING. BUT, I can't join the queue unless I pick a role. So what do I pick? My alt sucks at tanking, sucks at DPS, and sucks at healing, because he's level 15. So I just pick a role at random and call it day. I don't do that to spite anyone; I do that because no matter what role I choose, I know my impact in the dungeon is going to be completely negligible.

Or should I do parses in order to find out that I do 20 dps vs 21 hps, and therefore should always queue as a healer?

Pick dps. Again, it's not about your impact in the group, because its just a normal dungeon and probably someone can carry. It's about you queue as tank and healer and jump ahead of the line. It's not fair, I say that again, for a player who can carry the group, but have to wait 30m in the queue, while others who can't contribute a lots in group can just get their daily reward on 2 characters with in the same time.

witchdoctor · December 2017

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

BUT, I can't join the queue unless I pick a role. So what do I pick? My alt sucks at tanking, sucks at DPS, and sucks at healing, because he's level 15. So I just pick a role at random and call it day.

Well, if you cannot do any, but are going to queue, at least queue as DPS.

That way, your 'negligible' impact is just making fights take longer.

runagate · December 2017

I threw together my backup builds for healing and tanking today to roflstomp some normal random dungeons today.

Argonian magicka DK in trinimac casting shields as a healer
Pet sorc build healer
etc.

Worked great, had much fun.

Until my right mouse button broke. Had to remap mouse button 4 to block. Not so great while making a DPS toon tank. Still had no problems. Great fun was had. Got an imperial war mount (as of 9 or 14 characters doing the daily random).

Not real enthused to keep doing this if duplicates of the 6 possible mount/costume rewards which I don't have are all you can get, but I'm still interested in helping people get their level 10 alts through if anyone wants to /w @runagate anytime I'm online.

VaranisArano · December 2017

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

Well, for example. I have a max cp magplar, which I run (rightfully) as a healer.

I also have a level 15 DK alt that can't do ANYTHING. BUT, I can't join the queue unless I pick a role. So what do I pick? My alt sucks at tanking, sucks at DPS, and sucks at healing, because he's level 15. So I just pick a role at random and call it day. I don't do that to spite anyone; I do that because no matter what role I choose, I know my impact in the dungeon is going to be completely negligible.

Or should I do parses in order to find out that I do 20 dps vs 21 hps, and therefore should always queue as a healer?

How does your DK suck at everything? I've been running DKs at about that level and haven't had any issues with either of the support roles.
Healer - spiked armor and resto staff - grand healing
Tank - Sword and Board - Puncture, Searing Strike, Spiked Armor

Acrolas · December 2017

Maybe ZOS should add Support as a 4th queue option, which could possibly split the damage queue by half and provide an honest answer if your character doesn't really represent any prong of the group trinity.

maniac4maniac · December 2017

Acrolas wrote: »

Maybe ZOS should add Support as a 4th queue option, which could possibly split the damage queue by half and provide an honest answer if your character doesn't really represent any prong of the group trinity.

For people to take 4 roles?

Acrolas · December 2017

maniac4maniac wrote: »

For people to take 4 roles?

Hopefully Finder would also change so you can only queue for one role, as Support would cover everything that isn't just tank, damage, or healing.

maniac4maniac · December 2017

Acrolas wrote: »

maniac4maniac wrote: »

For people to take 4 roles?

Hopefully Finder would also change so you can only queue for one role, as Support would cover everything that isn't just tank, damage, or healing.

May beee, but ,that's kinda a problem at the very bottom of the list. Bugs, lags, low fps, high ping should be fixed before smth like role, most people still can solo carry normal & some people - vets.

ThePrinceOfBargains · December 2017

I don’t really care if a DPS queues as a Tank, but if they do, they better be the physical incarnation of Mehrunes Dagon himself and able to tear through enemies like nothing. Nothing worse than an atrocious DPS posing as a Tank. At least be able to make up for it with raw power.

Myyth · December 2017

yeah this event really highlights the huge game flaw that there are no checks to make sure players are actually tanks or healers.

Non stop fake tanks so far.

The last group it was great. I initiating the vote to kick and the lvl 25 dual wield wonder tank we had got kicked. He didnt realize and kept going and died!

But then we got a replacement tank....and it was also a fake tank

VaranisArano · December 2017

ThePrinceOfBargains wrote: »

I don’t really care if a DPS queues as a Tank, but if they do, they better be the physical incarnation of Mehrunes Dagon himself and able to tear through enemies like nothing. Nothing worse than an atrocious DPS posing as a Tank. At least be able to make up for it with raw power.

True. I've been in a group with a sorc DPS posing as tank who was genuinely able to soft-taunt everything by virtue of overwhelming DPS. He was a bit squishy, which made my job as healer a little interesting, but there was never an issue with the bosses in that normal dungeon because he just melted them.

But I've only seen that once. Usually, the DPS can't manage that and the boss is off chasing the DPS or trying to smash my healer for most of the fight.

thedude33 · December 2017

TheDarkShadow wrote: »

First, I want to make clear that I'm totally ok with people who know that they can solo dungeon and can carry no matter what group they get. They can queue as 3 roles as much as they want. Thank you for help pushing the queue faster and carry people.

Here I want to say about people who actually can't do ***. Yes we're doing fine, it's a simple normal dungeon. A DD carries the group doing 70% damage and 80% heal. But it's not fair for that DD who stay true to his role and have to wait 30m in the queue, then have to carry the whole group, while other just fake their role, get group with in 5m and tag along for the loot. It's like lying you are pregnant to get ahead of the line in the shop. Take a long and hard look at yourself on the mirror.

Agree. Who hasn't faked a pregnancy to get what they want. That's why I always carry a small pillow in my car. I'm always prepared. Even though I'm a guy, in this crazy PC world of ours, I'm rarely challenged.

Korah_Eaglecry · December 2017

I can do a fair job of Healing on my DPS Sorc in Normal Dungeons. So I queue up as a Healer because I can handle my own and keep people alive. But if you run head long into a mob or stand in stupid as a DPS, Or youre super squishy as a Tank....Its not me thats the problem. Learn the mechanics, learn how to create a functional build, learn to play to your strengths. Every single one of my builds has heals on it just so I dont have to make a fool of myself or heavily rely on the group Healer, who should be there for "Oh S&*#" moments not "I cant stub my toe or I flatline" moments.

Reality is I see a lot of players queuing up for things they arent built for or they expect others to carry them. So they show up with lackluster DPS or Tanking with nothing on their bars or in their gear to tank with. And then blame the Healer because they expected him/her to heal them through their stupidity and inadequacy. Even on my dedicated healer Im half tempted to let them burn where they stand.

boombazookajd · December 2017

I've run a few dungeons, I'm by no means an expert but my biggest gripe (if we're griping) is tanks dragging the boss all over the ****ing room. Here I am just trying to be good lad and deal some damage and I spend half the time trying to stay in range, let alone run through bar progression.

This is the reason why I consciously avoided tanking; I felt I wasn't up to snuff for the most important (maybe arguably) role in group. So I went for DD and learned all I could to be somewhat useful when I venture into a group.

ArchMikem · December 2017

I landed a group of 2 Tanks, a Healer, and I was a MagSorc DD. It was obvious I was doing the majority of the DPS for the entire group, then again it was Normal so whatever right?

When we were on the Twin Harvesters, when the left one went down everyone shifted to the right one. (they completely ignored the shield mechanic) After a second I just stopped attacking and watched. Both Tanks were just spamming Puncture over and over again while the Healer kept them alive. Thought it was funny so I stood aside and cheered them on.

Iselin · December 2017

Fake tanks who kite and can't do *** are bad enough but today I ran into a DW + bow NB who queued as a healer. He lucked out in that the rest of us were CP690 or close and we had our own self heals.

We should have kicked him just before the last boss for being a feminine hygiene product.

boombazookajd · December 2017

Iselin wrote: »

Fake tanks who kite and can't do *** are bad enough but today I ran into a DW + bow NB who queued as a healer. He lucked out in that the rest of us were CP690 or close and we had our own self heals.

We should have kicked him just before the last boss for being a feminine hygiene product.

If you're going to be a hygiene product, at least be an absorbent one. amiright? lol

VaranisArano · December 2017

Iselin wrote: »

Fake tanks who kite and can't do *** are bad enough but today I ran into a DW + bow NB who queued as a healer. He lucked out in that the rest of us were CP690 or close and we had our own self heals.

We should have kicked him just before the last boss for being a feminine hygiene product.

Feminine hygiene products are darned useful. Sounds like this guy wasn't. Plus, did you know that you can use feminine hygiene products to plug or cover a bullet wound? Even feminine hygiene products are more useful for healing than that guy!

Iccotak · December 2017

This is why I don't sign up for dungeons or trials.
I know my main character sucks right now and am working on getting him better and building up other characters

Iselin · December 2017

Iccotak wrote: »

This is why I don't sign up for dungeons or trials.
I know m character sucks right now and am working a=on getting him better.

That's a totally different thing. There is not a thing wrong with sucking while you try to improve. Just queue as your correct role for a normal dungeon and go crazy learning and improving.

We're talking about deliberate fake DPS who queue as a role they can't do simply because the queue is much shorter for healers and especially tanks.

Some people might give you some grief for being bad dps in a normal dungeon but that would be a small minority of insecure elite wannabes, also known as "elitists."

Iccotak · December 2017

Iselin wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

This is why I don't sign up for dungeons or trials.
I know m character sucks right now and am working a=on getting him better.

That's a totally different thing. There is not a thing wrong with sucking while you try to improve. Just queue as your correct role for a normal dungeon and go crazy learning and improving.

We're talking about deliberate fake DPS who queue as a role they can't do simply because the queue is much shorter for healers and especially tanks.

Some people might give you some grief for being bad dps in a normal dungeon but that would be a small minority of insecure elite wannabes, also known as "elitists."

that's the thing I suck at all the roles. I know cause I tried.

KingYogi415 · December 2017

How about people who Q as DPS and can’t even break 5k.

A group of 4 stormproof players can clear almost any non dlc dungeon anyways!

JarlUlfric · December 2017

It's a normal, it doesn't need a tank or a healer. Self heals + dps is perfectly capable of completing. Don't make a mountain of a mole hill.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2017

JarlUlfric wrote: »

It's a normal, it doesn't need a tank or a healer. Self heals + dps is perfectly capable of completing. Don't make a mountain of a mole hill.

Then queue DPS.

Dont be entitled.

JarlUlfric · December 2017

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

JarlUlfric wrote: »

It's a normal, it doesn't need a tank or a healer. Self heals + dps is perfectly capable of completing. Don't make a mountain of a mole hill.

Then queue DPS.

Dont be entitled.

It's not being entitled. There is nothing wrong with people queuing up for normals with roles that they aren't specced out as. Normals have 0 mechanics, nothing. There's is absolutely 0 reason someone should be having trouble in one.

Doctordarkspawn · December 2017

JarlUlfric wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

JarlUlfric wrote: »

It's a normal, it doesn't need a tank or a healer. Self heals + dps is perfectly capable of completing. Don't make a mountain of a mole hill.

Then queue DPS.

Dont be entitled.

It's not being entitled. There is nothing wrong with people queuing up for normals with roles that they aren't specced out as. Normals have 0 mechanics, nothing. There's is absolutely 0 reason someone should be having trouble in one.

It is absolutely about being entitled.

There is something wrong with it when you cut in friggin line.

Justifications of greed fall on deaf ears. Queue as DPS like the rest of the world or make a tank toon.

Of course, people like you usually just queue with a friend so you can dig in your heel and have someone shield you from geting votekicked when people have a problem with your bull.

BlanketFort · December 2017

Saucy_Jack wrote: »

Well, for example. I have a max cp magplar, which I run (rightfully) as a healer.

I also have a level 15 DK alt that can't do ANYTHING. BUT, I can't join the queue unless I pick a role. So what do I pick? My alt sucks at tanking, sucks at DPS, and sucks at healing, because he's level 15. So I just pick a role at random and call it day. I don't do that to spite anyone; I do that because no matter what role I choose, I know my impact in the dungeon is going to be completely negligible.

Or should I do parses in order to find out that I do 20 dps vs 21 hps, and therefore should always queue as a healer?

So if someone is miffed at you queue jumping and not filling the role you got assigned, you'll just tell them "I wasn't good at anything, so I chose all three"? :-/

As someone said, you could have just picked DD. Or grab a S&B, slot a taunt, actually taunt, and call it a job well done. Healer will keep you alive.
Unless of course you got a fake healer.. and the DDs can't kill things fast enough in a normal dungeon... then you hopefully see what the problem is.

Fake roles happen quite a lot in vet randoms, too, and I find it sickening. Truly just obnoxious, selfish behaviour. Got vet falkreath as random today on my healer, and the CP 690 fake tank boldly typed "no tank, heal me". Gave Mr. Macho Magsorc a shot and he proceeded to streak forward to drag all the mobs (and the minotaurs too) to the first boss, and died shortly thereafter, with us trailing far behind him, leaving us to deal with the chaos he instigated. He got ressed, only to die again a split-second later, then demands for "heal me more" as he lays there.. dead, limp, and useless.

Perhaps he queued for vet by accident? Not according to him, he wanted vet random, but didn't think he'd land in Falkreath (today's pledge, btw...)