Why non-CP PvP is better especially in BG!

sha-ext · September 2017

I like Non-CP-PvP much more and i think that it is way better. This was, ofc a highly subjective statement.
But i will try to back up this opinion with arguments in hope that we gain support in keeping the non-cp BG.

CP allocation
Let's take a look at what CP are actually providing. They allows us to boost certain abilites and stats. We can choose what kind of ability we want to be enhanced. What are our choices? Naturally most players will enhance their classes inherent strenghts since you want to bring the most dmg, the tankiest tank, healiest (new word) heals to the fight. CP therefore allows us to streamline our builds.
But that means that everybody has to do the same to stay competetive. Which then means that slight imbalances in classes (you can never get rid of those comepletely!) will enhance a lot. Slight imbalances will become very large imbalances. That is why we have (nearly) unkillable templars or wardens and so forth.

A simplified example: You have 100 points to put in magic dmg or physical dmg while using a 2h weapon. You will put 100 points in physical dmg.
At the same time another player has 100 points to enhance resistance against physical or magical dmg. Depending on the class he/she will put 50 points in each. Which means 50 points less defense against physical dmg.
Ofc, the reality is much more complex but that is where the enhanced imbalances are coming from.

Build diversity
Non-CP allows for more build diversity – not less. In non-cp you are not forced to fight larger imbalances nor very streamlined builds. You 'only' have to deal with class strenghts and weaknesses. That is why you can get away with many more less streamlined builds in non-cp – especially if you are a good player! Which allows for much more possibilites to work.
You will have a much harder time with less streamlined builds in cp-pvp.
And while i understand that many ppl enjoy min-maxing and working on builds (i love that myself), the possibilites for competing builds in cp-pvp are not as open as in non-cp pvp.

Battlegrounds
Changing BG to CP is a bad choice. I stated my main argument for that above. BG with their enclosed spaces will enhance the problem stated above manifold.
Those super tanky wardens (they are already super tanky in non-cp and they got slightly buffed

) will not be stopped carrying a relic. There will probably less interesting fights as they tend to get drawn out. Some classes will be super powerful in certain types of matches (could add a long paragraph about that...).

A flaw in my argument!
I base my arguments on the assumption that good PvP is even PvP. I know that many people would not share that assumption. But for me personally the best experiences in PvP is winning an even fight.

Looking forward to counter arguments!

Neoauspex · September 2017

Non-cp battlegrounds are perfectly balanced (if you're a sorc)

HEBREWHAMMERRR · September 2017

No counter arguments. This change should not go live. NonCP battlegrounds is the best stage for competitive based PvP.

Voxicity · September 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

Non-cp battlegrounds are perfectly Everything is balanced (if you're a sorc)

Fixed for ya

Tandor · September 2017

I'm not a PvPer, so on the one hand I don't know what I'm talking about, while on the other hand I don't have a vested interest in restricting BGs to the type that favours me.

As an outside observer, it seems to me that options are always best in any gaming situation, and that those who find non-CP combat more competitive should be catered for along with those who see no point in maxing out their CPs only to have them disregarded for PvP (which may be the only reason they've leveled up in the first place if they have no interest in PvE).

So wouldn't it be better to have both CP and non-CP BGs so everyone is happy? Or do the number of players involved in BGs not make that viable?

HEBREWHAMMERRR · September 2017

Tandor wrote: »

I'm not a PvPer, so on the one hand I don't know what I'm talking about, while on the other hand I don't have a vested interest in restricting BGs to the type that favours me.

As an outside observer, it seems to me that options are always best in any gaming situation, and that those who find non-CP combat more competitive should be catered for along with those who see no point in maxing out their CPs only to have them disregarded for PvP (which may be the only reason they've leveled up in the first place if they have no interest in PvE).

So wouldn't it be better to have both CP and non-CP BGs so everyone is happy? Or do the number of players involved in BGs not make that viable?

I think you're spot on, the numbers wouldn't make it viable and would make the already sometimes long ques times worse.

LokoMatic · September 2017

As someone who constantly runs in an elitist pre-made BG group, this change could be devastating. In its current stage of Non CP Bg's, I have won 20 BG's in a row quite frequently, and have seen other groups absolutely dominate with the right composition. What makes it interesting though, is the fact that anyone can be competitive, and the playing field is quite evenly related to skill.

With CP enabled, those "meta tanks" will be unkillable in a group format. We have all seen 4 man groups tank 20+ in Cyrodiil, in fact it has been happening for years.

BG's are fine where they are. They are fun, light, balanced, and competitive. With CP enabled it will be boring, pre made tank groups just running around for the entire duration.

I see here people claiming they will enjoy CP's in BG's and that is great and all, but when all of us PVP elitists have our god squads perfectly built around CP comp and gear, people will not be happy at all. If you add CP to BG's, you're going to have a a bad time.

Krayzie · September 2017

I can't wait to get my tank group, everyone running meteor, all of us guarding and stacking so you can't target one person to focus down.

Oh and holding block.

sha-ext · September 2017

Some of you mentioned examples of why cp-pvp would be horrible for BG (like even more annoying sorcs and 'meta-groups').
I'd even go further by saying that CP and PvP should have never been mixed up.

XxBIGWASS101xX · September 2017

LokoMatic wrote: »

As someone who constantly runs in an elitist pre-made BG group, this change could be devastating. In its current stage of Non CP Bg's, I have won 20 BG's in a row quite frequently, and have seen other groups absolutely dominate with the right composition. What makes it interesting though, is the fact that anyone can be competitive, and the playing field is quite evenly related to skill.

With CP enabled, those "meta tanks" will be unkillable in a group format. We have all seen 4 man groups tank 20+ in Cyrodiil, in fact it has been happening for years.

BG's are fine where they are. They are fun, light, balanced, and competitive. With CP enabled it will be boring, pre made tank groups just running around for the entire duration.

I see here people claiming they will enjoy CP's in BG's and that is great and all, but when all of us PVP elitists have our god squads perfectly built around CP comp and gear, people will not be happy at all. If you add CP to BG's, you're going to have a a bad time.

You are absolutely right, CP imbalances PVP gameplay. They should leave Cyrodiil the way it is and let competitive BG's be non-CP. With CP, BG's will become 4-man meta magicka based groups and a person solo queing or players with low to mid champion points will have no chance at beating a group like yours.

I don't particularly care about stamina builds as I am very bias towards stamina classes and hardly every play them

but stamina will have little to no effect on these types of groups and will have almost no place in a good BG team comp.

On another note, I was hoping they took a step in the other direction and implemented a BG ladder and ranking system which matched teams up against each other with relatively even MMR. but this will be a step back in my opinion.

Riggsy · September 2017

If ZOS' mission is to ruin everything still balanced they are headed in the right direction.

Shardan4968 · September 2017

I was fighting in BGs during Midyear Mayhem for achievement and it wasn't that enjoyable for me, but I was considering to give it another try. Now, I will act like Battlegrounds don't exist for me, there's no much left for non-meta player I guess.

LokoMatic · September 2017

It is true if they had an MMR Ranking system BG's would be a different story. But its casual nature is what makes it fun. Group or solo, I still enjoy BG's. With CP's it's certainly headed in the wrong direction.

Crom_CCCXVI · September 2017

NO CP is 10X better than CP right now.

What is CP ? half the population on a sheild stacking Sorc, the other 1/2 on a no death tank as they walk around trolling each other, fighting their 30 min 1 v 1's where no one dies?

I have 755 CP. I don't even play anymore. It's stupid. You go into NO CP, you can play any build in the game effectively, all players die, anyone can kill anyone if they out play them.

CP= build
Non CP = skill

sha-ext · September 2017

I agree.
Would really love to read a a few arguments from ppl that think CP PvP is better.

Morgul667 · September 2017

I love non CP PVP

Joy_Division · September 2017

The biggest counter-argument is that not enough people played no-CP battlegrounds, which has prompted ZoS to change the format in the hope they draw a bigger audience and thus more money in its pockets.

Of course, not enough people will play CP battlegrounds either. But ZoS felt compelled to do something, and since they don;t plan on actually devoting resource to making PvP engaging and new experience, this is what we get.

bigelle.x3_ESO · September 2017

If this change goes live, I simply won't play BGs. I am nowhere near max CP and really don't feel like getting dominated by high cp players and their hyper inflated damage, defense, and sustain stats. I can't compete with that no matter how good at the game I am. This change will absolutely wall off newer and/or lower cp players like myself from ever stepping foot into BGs. This is a bad decision and should not be passed.

Baconlad · October 2017

This thread...claiming no CP inspires build options

Then crapping all over tanks and healers. i embrace cp bgs

Cant expect that everyone will be a "tank". I have rarely come across builds i could not defeat in a duel. In order to kill tanks...stack on them. For certain BGs tanks will shine. But they have no way of knowing that their best bg type will be next...so why would that many players bring premade tank groups...the logic is lost on me. That logic would imply that most players in cp campaigns are tanks...they are not...

Lexxypwns · October 2017

Neoauspex wrote: »

Non-cp battlegrounds are perfectly balanced (if you're a sorc)

Outside of stealing kills in Deathmatch there's nothing OP about mag sorc. In fact, I usually make a point of focusing sorcs because they're always easy to remove from a fight in no CP. Once you're on them, if you're blocking frags then they're done for unless they streak away. When they leave you focus someone else. When they come back you hit them again.

There's literally not one sorc on my platform that concerns me in a 1v1 in no CP, even the good ones that get kills on me will lose far more than they win and I'm far from a top tier player these days

@Baconlad I agree that there's no more build diversity without CP. However, in a controlled environment like BGs with very specific goals it's possible to make niche builds with CP that will outperform at the specific game modes available. This wouldn't be bad, except it leads to a bigger gap between pre-mades and pugs as well as CP capped players and newer ones. At the moment, if I've got 1 other really good player on coms with me then we can carry 2 subpar players against a 4 man pre-made and at least compete. With CP tuned builds this will no longer exist.

Emma_Overload · October 2017

No CP is massively biased against Magicka Sorcs for the simple reason that Bastion is the only buff available to boost shield size, while there are tons of buffs to boost healing without CP. Shields in No CP are ridiculously small, which is why Sorcs do little in BGs except hide and steak kills with Fury.