Sentences that trigger lore nerds
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notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭lordrichter wrote: »Obviously, DK's and their use of the Thu'um will trigger.
All dumb statements tend to trigger
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Dustfinger81✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »
Elder Scrolls is a Bethesda title. Lore from there is higher that ZoS lore. The only place it matters to take one side over the other is conflict. Like with Thu'um being so easily and readily taught to everyone that is a DK. There just isnt good lore logic to it
There is no need for a lore conflict. It seems to be backed by lore sources. Opposition based on emotion isn't good lore logic.
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notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dustfinger81 wrote: »
There is no need for a lore conflict. It seems to be backed by lore sources. Opposition based on emotion isn't good lore logic.
Except it is a lore conflict. Already been pointed out so no need to repeat. Read a bit more in the other thread he made 0 -
Dustfinger81✭✭✭notimetocare wrote: »
Except it is a lore conflict. Already been pointed out so no need to repeat. Read a bit more in the other thread he made
Ehhh.. I read through it. The argument seems to boil down to that learning Thuum was to hard and rare to be achievable but you proved that wrong. Other than that, it seems to be based on game mechanics and the argument that not Everything the DK dies is Thuum.1 -
Ilsabet✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭My wife thought a necromancer was someone who was in love with their neck.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dustfinger81 wrote: »
ehhh, Whitecoat uses lore sources for pretty strong support. How the Thuum functions may just be a failure of game mechanics.
At first, it seemed to me that the lore kept it up in the air. But, the sources do seem to support that they use the Thuum.
Whitecoat is using secondary sources. In setting, but still secondary, from non-Thu'um practitioners. In contrast, we have primary sources such as Paarthurnax and Arngeir to use as explanations for how this stuff functions. Now, of your choice between a random member of the Mage's Guild, who has no specific experience with dragons, and confirmed Thu'um practitioners, you need to make a judgement call to which one is the more credible source.
About the only support that Whitecoat can bring to the table is the idea that Dragon Knights are practicing an Akiviri discipline. Okay, fine, I don't doubt that. And that said discipline is derived from imitating dragons. Again, fine, that makes sense. And that said imitation is the same as the power that the dragons wield, in spite of not following any of the associated conventioneers, exhibiting any of the same behavior, or even including most of the same powers.
DKs attempt to intimidate the thu'um, but they don't practice it, and have gone about entirely different methods of trying to replicate it's effects, resulting in a vastly different powerset. Unless you know of a DK ability that mimics unrelenting force, whirlwind sprint, marked for death, frost breath, become ethereal, the ability to actually summon dragons by uttering their name (and yes, there are dragons active in this era, just not many)... but, they can belch fire and set their weapons on fire. That's kind of like, but not the same as, some of the shouts.Edited by starkerealm on 9 August 2017 23:014 -
16BitForestCat wrote: »"All these Crown Store mounts are breaking lore! What next, a unicorn mount?"
(Meanwhile, everyone who's played Oblivion rolls their eyes and heaves a huge sigh.)
You mean there are unicorns in Cyrodiil?1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MUSTACHMAN654 wrote: »
You mean there are unicorns in Cyrodiil?
Yes. At least one.5 -
mb10✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »
Why is this a trigger? Dragonknights use the Thu'um, and the Tsaesci and their followers and students are the ones trying to spread it far and wide. Or is your issue that they're not the right strain of vampire?
@WhiteCoatSyndrome
Sorry what does shouts have to do with vampirism?
My point was that a dragonknight's attacks are all or mostly flame based.
Vampires are very weak to fire so it doesn't make sense at all. A vampire using lava whip? Or fiery breath? He'd probably melt himself in normal circumstances!
Not to mention magma armour ultimate or flames of Oblivion where a fire ball just floats and circles around you lol makes no sense for a vampire0 -
Dustfinger81 wrote: »
Ehhh.. I read through it. The argument seems to boil down to that learning Thuum was to hard and rare to be achievable but you proved that wrong. Other than that, it seems to be based on game mechanics and the argument that not Everything the DK dies is Thuum.
NOTHING the Dragonknights do is Thu'um. It MIGHT be tonal magic, but not Thu'um.1 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dustfinger81 wrote: »
Ehhh.. I read through it. The argument seems to boil down to that learning Thuum was to hard and rare to be achievable but you proved that wrong. Other than that, it seems to be based on game mechanics and the argument that not Everything the DK dies is Thuum.
When it was widespread, it was being taught directly from dragons. DK do not use Thuum3 -
notimetocare✭✭✭✭✭
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@WhiteCoatSyndrome
Sorry what does shouts have to do with vampirism?
My point was that a dragonknight's attacks are all or mostly flame based.
Vampires are very weak to fire so it doesn't make sense at all. A vampire using lava whip? Or fiery breath? He'd probably melt himself in normal circumstances!
Not to mention magma armour ultimate or flames of Oblivion where a fire ball just floats and circles around you lol makes no sense for a vampire
Vampire use fire magic in every game. Food for thought. Magma armor you have a bit of a point, but that is a mechanical issue0 -
Tornaad✭✭✭✭✭
✭My wife thought a necromancer was someone who was in love with their neck.
She should read a little poem written by a mage in the Belkarth Outlaws Refuge.
hahaha There are some very sick and twisted parts of Elder Scrolls lore.0 -
WhiteCoatSyndrome✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭*checks* Has this one seriously not been brought up yet? Telvanni Mushroom towers.lordrichter wrote: »Obviously, DK's and their use of the Thu'um will trigger.
Apparently!
@starkerealm I'm going to respond to you in the other thread to avoid derailing this one further.@WhiteCoatSyndrome
Sorry what does shouts have to do with vampirism?
My point was that a dragonknight's attacks are all or mostly flame based.
Vampires are very weak to fire so it doesn't make sense at all. A vampire using lava whip? Or fiery breath? He'd probably melt himself in normal circumstances!
Not to mention magma armour ultimate or flames of Oblivion where a fire ball just floats and circles around you lol makes no sense for a vampire
@mb10 The whole Dragonknights-use-the-Thu'um bit I went into in detail in this thread. In addition to that, the Tsaesci (nation from Akavir which formed the Dragonguard which became the Blades, and more relevantly also formed the Dragonknights) were VAMPIRE snake people. The two Tsaesci Potentates who ruled after the Reman dynasty? Both vampires, that's why their reigns were so long.
So while it's a bit odd from a resistance standpoint, it is perfectly lore-friendly to have a vampire DK.
But as it bothers you, think of it this way: how many soldiers in modern armies are weak to bullets, or explosives? Yet they use both.
Edited by WhiteCoatSyndrome on 10 August 2017 23:59#proud2BAStarObsessedLoony
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mb10✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »*checks* Has this one seriously not been brought up yet? Telvanni Mushroom towers.
Apparently!
@starkerealm I'm going to respond to you in the other thread to avoid derailing this one further.
@mb10 The whole Dragonknights-use-the-Thu'um bit I went into in detail in this thread. In addition to that, the Tsaesci (nation from Akavir which formed the Dragonguard which became the Blades, and more relevantly also formed the Dragonknights) were VAMPIRE snake people. The two Tsaesci Potentates who ruled after the Reman dynasty? Both vampires, that's why their reigns were so long. So while it's a bit odd from a resistance standpoint, it is perfectly lore-friendly to have a vampire DK.
But as it bothers you, think of it this way: how many soldiers in modern armies are weak to bullets, or explosives? Yet they use both.
@WhiteCoatSyndrome
I have to do my reading on it but "vampire snake people" doesnt really sound that convincing.
And in regards to the comparison to real life: A soldier that uses explosives will die if its too close to them. Much like a suicide bomber lol and much like a vampire using fiery breath or magma armour or mighty standard.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »*checks* Has this one seriously not been brought up yet? Telvanni Mushroom towers.
Yeah, but at the same time, the mushroom towers thing is a little complex. Mostly because fan art seriously warped what the towers were "supposed" to look like in the last five or six years. So when we got the ones in ESO, which do look kinda similar to what we saw in Morrowind, people flipped out because it doesn't look like the Solstheim tower, or all that (admittedly really cool) fan art.
Or you mean the stone foundations, because that's a stupid hill to die on.0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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Shhh.starkerealm wrote: »Or you mean the stone foundations, because that's a stupid hill to die on.
Even if Schicky doesn't agree, and persists in saying they are Telvanni constructions in their own right, I'm happy with the explanation the community came up with for that. (That being, they have stone foundations because they are the remnants of the old First Era Aldmeri towers mentioned in Before the Ages of Man.)UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp1 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Idk, C0da is not just some guy's fan-finction. It's written by MK who was writing lore for TES and left after morrowind. It seems plausible that it's consistent with what was planned back then. Sure, they can always cancel plans and plan new things instead. But as of now, unless proven otherwise, I don't see why you wouldn't consider it canon. Also, the whole point of it is to show that everything can be canon according to MK's comments on reddit. So yeah, pretty much it is now known where dwemer went, what Akavir is (and that, he says in comments, was always planned and there were always clues in lore books), and a few other things.
Sure, we can hope that they'll surprise us and rewrite all that, but so far I don't see a reason to ignore what's written by one of lore authors.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭...but so far I don't see a reason to ignore what's written by one of lore authors.
The point isn't to ignore it, so much as understand that it doesn't represent the setting's canon. It ends up kinda like Fallout: Tactics: if you enjoy the stuff in there, great, but don't expect to see furry Deathclaws coming back to the franchise.
If you enjoy C0DA, great. No, seriously. But, you probably shouldn't be using it as an analytical tool to examine the rest of the setting.5 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
Yes. At least one.
I'm going to dig this one out again, on a whim.
Unicorns do exist in The Elder Scrolls, but are exceedingly rare. To the best of my recollection one individual has appeared in game. It's part Hircine's quest in Oblivion. Specifically, Hircine wants the thing dead. Unicorns have also been mentioned in dialog at least once. There's a Dark Brotherhood member in Skryim who comments on killing a Unicorn.
Finally, as a weird bit of trivia, it's distinctly possible that Unicorns are daedric in nature. The one encountered in Oblivion has full immunity to normal weapons, meaning you must use a silver or enchanted weapon to even harm it. Normally this is a characteristic shared by some daedra (though not in TES4, nor ESO, for that matter). It's possible there's some other explanation as well, so just take this last bit as wild musings, rather than official fact.2 -
Artis✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »
The point isn't to ignore it, so much as understand that it doesn't represent the setting's canon. It ends up kinda like Fallout: Tactics: if you enjoy the stuff in there, great, but don't expect to see furry Deathclaws coming back to the franchise.
If you enjoy C0DA, great. No, seriously. But, you probably shouldn't be using it as an analytical tool to examine the rest of the setting.
I don't enjoy it at all, it's hard to read (and I haven't) and I don't like where dwemer went and how the world ended. But I can't argue with the fact that the person who was there when they came up with all the set ups wrote it. Not to mention MK's other comments, say, about what Akavir is.
As in, technically if it didn't appear in game and/or in books approved by zenimax/bethesda it's not canon, but who are we kidding? We can be pretty sure that this IS canon and what lore was planned for future back during Morrowind times.SpoilerMaybe they come up with something else, but if it turns out that all dwemer dissolved into Numidium who was stuck in a time loop and will not appear until Landfall and Akavir is just Tamriel in future - then don't say you were surprised0 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
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That's definitely something that causes consternationIdk, C0da is not just some guy's fan-finction. It's written by MK who was writing lore for TES and left after morrowind. It seems plausible that it's consistent with what was planned back then. Sure, they can always cancel plans and plan new things instead. But as of now, unless proven otherwise, I don't see why you wouldn't consider it canon. Also, the whole point of it is to show that everything can be canon according to MK's comments on reddit. So yeah, pretty much it is now known where dwemer went, what Akavir is (and that, he says in comments, was always planned and there were always clues in lore books), and a few other things.
Sure, we can hope that they'll surprise us and rewrite all that, but so far I don't see a reason to ignore what's written by one of lore authors.
Sure, C0DA isn't "some guy's" fan-fiction, it's MK's work. But it's not considered canon because he was not working for Bethesda at the time, and it has not been produced through an official Bethesda source, and therefore is still technically fan-fiction . UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp4 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭To be fair, I'm legitimately unsure if the stuff from the two tie-in novels is considered canon.0 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Oh, right, also, "I want to play a Lilmothiit." *shudders*
We should be able to 0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »To be fair, I'm legitimately unsure if the stuff from the two tie-in novels is considered canon.
BGS would have to weigh in on that one. If Keyes worked closely with BGS lore masters in creating the events of the book, and given how the Elder Scrolls lore has been defined, then yeah, I would say that the books would be considered canon. At least, as canon as anything else in the lore. The details about any historical event can be revised, if there is enough need for that to happen. The lore regarding historical events is not immutable.0 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »
I know what "canon" means, thank you.
Except that the argument was "Kirkbride wasn't working for Beth anymore, therefore it's not canon". That argument is invalid.
Your current argument on the other hand ("Nothing is canon unless included by ZOS or Bethesda in an official release") is completely different - and valid, at least from a logical point of view.
Thank you for illustrating my point so effectively :-)
who's kirkbride?0 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭Referring to the TES series as "the Skyrim games".
"So how do you make your character dragonborn"
"You can't"
"But you can become dragonborn in all the other Skyrim games so why not this one?"
my first game was oblivion and holy *** you could become a lot of different things.the gray fox,the listener,a champion of cyridol(still no clue how to spell it lol),a vampire,an arena grand champion,archmage of the mages guild,fighters guildmaster,a vampire hunter,the divine crusader and a member of the blades.oh and its implied that you turn into a daedric prince eventually too.so theres that.Referring to the TES series as "the Skyrim games".
"So how do you make your character dragonborn"
"You can't"
"But you can become dragonborn in all the other Skyrim games so why not this one?"0 -
Countcalorie✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »Obviously, DK's and their use of the Thu'um will trigger.
dont think they use thuum.thought they used some kind of akiviri battle spirit magic or alteration and destruction magic imitating the legends of dragons.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »
Which only tells part of the story. Basically, if there's something weird and incomprehensible in TES lore, it's probably because of Kirkbride.1
This discussion has been closed.