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Why people still believe only in literal meaning of "winning" in reference to P2W?
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Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Kiralyn2000 wrote: »RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W.
I'm not coming down on it one way or the other, just curious - do you feel that Regular MMO Expansions also fit these definitions? After all, if a WoW player didn't buy Wrath of the Lich King when it came out, he was 10 levels lower than other players, and didn't have access to several zones/dungeons/raids worth of gear (there was BoE gear that could be traded, but since it required the higher level cap to even equip.....)
^this.
The problem with the "winning" part of p2w is that we can stretch the meaning to encompass anything. It's basically boils down to "I'll know it when I see it".
I have seen arguments over the years that state any game's DLC/Expansion/Chapter/whatever is considered p2w. If you want to get even more abstract, merely owning a game is p2w over those who don't have it.
"If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."0 -
Starless06✭✭Because p2w originally meant pay to win. Just because you choose a different interpretation of the phrase doesn't mean everyone agrees.1 -
zaria✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
First DLC and expansions is excluded. If not WOW is among the worst P2W games out there,RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Why?
If you don't buy the expansion you don't get access to the new levels and new gear, you will do 1/10 of the damage of other and take 10x as much damage.
You can still do the old stuff but all endgame moves to the new.
Grinding just make you go in circles.
Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.0 -
shadow071179✭✭✭Dude you got to mutch time on your Hands.
Go and enjoy the game instead of B!tch!ng on a forum about P2W.
Be glad the are making new stuf for the game ;p1 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The forums use an invite system, so to have another account a person needs to acquire another copy of ESO. You keep making these alt account claims, but you don't understand how the forums work.Edited by dday3six on 8 May 2017 15:070 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The forums use an invite system, so to have another account a person needs to acquire another copy of ESO. You keep making these alt account claims, but you don't understand how the forums work.
Dude, you can pick up a copy of ESO for Eight bucks on humble or cheaper if you look around. a alt gmail account is free, so it is very simple to be invited.
I have a neighbor across the street from me that keeps around eight alts any given time because he enjoys trolling the forums.0 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Except ... and here is the big thing you're leaving out ... a BIS staff wins you nothing in PVP. I don't have one, and I "win" plenty.
A maelstrom staff, in the perfect trait, can give you a small spreadsheet advantage but A) it's not given to you
requires potentially hundreds of hours of work to get and C) may as well be a broom in PVP if you're up against a seasoned PVPer.
And yes, there is a wrong answer. The one you are trying to shoehorn in. Your mount example is pay to tie. If they were giving a 70 speed mount via money when all you can get is 60 without cash, then you would be correct. You can't so you're not.
And here it is...AGAIN
"Stating something isn't P2W because its insignificant to them"
thank you proving my point.Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak1 -
Kodrac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
The forums use an invite system, so to have another account a person needs to acquire another copy of ESO. You keep making these alt account claims, but you don't understand how the forums work.
All you need is an email account. I didn't know about this invite when I got the game back at launch so I lurked on the forums for a couple years. I finally just emailed them and asked for a forum account and they made one for me, All I needed to give them was an email address and three possible forum names.3 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The forums use an invite system, so to have another account a person needs to acquire another copy of ESO. You keep making these alt account claims, but you don't understand how the forums work.
Dude, you can pick up a copy of ESO for Eight bucks on humble or cheaper if you look around. a alt gmail account is free, so it is very simple to be invited.
I have a neighbor across the street from me that keeps around eight alts any given time because he enjoys trolling the forums.
For most trolls that's not worth the capital. If you want to convince people the forums on full of troll eggs you're gonna have to do better than that.0 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Except ... and here is the big thing you're leaving out ... a BIS staff wins you nothing in PVP. I don't have one, and I "win" plenty.
A maelstrom staff, in the perfect trait, can give you a small spreadsheet advantage but A) it's not given to you requires potentially hundreds of hours of work to get and C) may as well be a broom in PVP if you're up against a seasoned PVPer.
And yes, there is a wrong answer. The one you are trying to shoehorn in. Your mount example is pay to tie. If they were giving a 70 speed mount via money when all you can get is 60 without cash, then you would be correct. You can't so you're not.
VERY well said and 100% spot on!
Nothing "locked behind the DLC paywall" or crown store gives you a significant advantage. I have ZERO BiS equipment that came from any DLC content and I do just fine and am very competitive.
In my opinion, as DK said perfectly, the best you have is pay to tie.0 -
Balamoor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The forums use an invite system, so to have another account a person needs to acquire another copy of ESO. You keep making these alt account claims, but you don't understand how the forums work.
Dude, you can pick up a copy of ESO for Eight bucks on humble or cheaper if you look around. a alt gmail account is free, so it is very simple to be invited.
I have a neighbor across the street from me that keeps around eight alts any given time because he enjoys trolling the forums.
For most trolls that's not worth the capital. If you want to convince people the forums on full of troll eggs you're gonna have to do better than that.
Not really, it's a huge problem that I and several others on this forum have discussed with the CM's and the guys who were at Pax, and QC 2015; one group on this forum actually believes that by using alt accounts to complain on the forums they can effect the direction of the game, it's idiotic and won't work, but stupidity never stopped people before.
But hey feel free to believe whatever narrative you want.Edited by Balamoor on 8 May 2017 15:330 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The forums use an invite system, so to have another account a person needs to acquire another copy of ESO. You keep making these alt account claims, but you don't understand how the forums work.
All you need is an email account. I didn't know about this invite when I got the game back at launch so I lurked on the forums for a couple years. I finally just emailed them and asked for a forum account and they made one for me, All I needed to give them was an email address and three possible forum names.
You need an email that is attached to an ESO copy. When you log into the game for the first time it tags the email you use to the copy of ESO.
I call that poster out on it because they use the alt account bit to push the narrative that only a handful of players (15 or less) dislike the coming Morrowind changes and that small group goes around making alt accounts to make it look as if more people dislike it.0 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
First DLC and expansions is excluded. If not WOW is among the worst P2W games out there,RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Why?
If you don't buy the expansion you don't get access to the new levels and new gear, you will do 1/10 of the damage of other and take 10x as much damage.
You can still do the old stuff but all endgame moves to the new.
Yes, WOW is one of the worst P2W offenders because they duped their player base into accepting it.
AGAIN, expansions are NOT exempt, they are simply P2W things large player bases have been duped into accepting. Solid marketing strategies and talking about how insignificant it is in return for content sold it hook, line, and sinker.
PT Barnum said it best:
"there is a sucker born every minute"
MMO's are a prime example of the truth behind this statement.
Just because a P2W mechanic(Expansions) no matter how insignificant they are, are accepted doesn't make them any less P2W.....
Folks are really just arguing over semantics now
VMA and Maw = BIS slot weapons for PVP and PVE
If you don't buy that content and complete them, then you are at a disadvantage. Even if its a insignificant advantage, its still an advantage that you have to pay for which is P2W no matter how insignificant is.
Again, im done arguing...the definitions are clear to anyone who wants to look them up. There is always going to be those who defend the compnay line no matter what, and those who will bash the compnay line no matter what.
I sit firmly in the middle...i have cackled ZOS on stuff that I don't agree with, and have praised them on stuff they do well. I do my best to remain objective. The game still has some fun elements to it, and hasn't pushed the P2W envelope far enough for me personally to care, but to say P2W elements don't exist already in the game is simply being disingenuous.
Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak1 -
dday3six✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The forums use an invite system, so to have another account a person needs to acquire another copy of ESO. You keep making these alt account claims, but you don't understand how the forums work.
Dude, you can pick up a copy of ESO for Eight bucks on humble or cheaper if you look around. a alt gmail account is free, so it is very simple to be invited.
I have a neighbor across the street from me that keeps around eight alts any given time because he enjoys trolling the forums.
For most trolls that's not worth the capital. If you want to convince people the forums on full of troll eggs you're gonna have to do better than that.
Not really, it's a huge problem that I and several others on this forum have discussed with the CM's and they guys who were at Pax, one group on this forum believes that by using alt accounts to complain on the forums they can effect the direction of the game, it's idiotic and won't work, but stupidity never stopped people before.
But hey feel free to believe whatever narrative you want.
Thanks for providing an example
0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Except ... and here is the big thing you're leaving out ... a BIS staff wins you nothing in PVP. I don't have one, and I "win" plenty.
A maelstrom staff, in the perfect trait, can give you a small spreadsheet advantage but A) it's not given to you requires potentially hundreds of hours of work to get and C) may as well be a broom in PVP if you're up against a seasoned PVPer.
And yes, there is a wrong answer. The one you are trying to shoehorn in. Your mount example is pay to tie. If they were giving a 70 speed mount via money when all you can get is 60 without cash, then you would be correct. You can't so you're not.
And here it is...AGAIN
"Stating something isn't P2W because its insignificant to them"
thank you proving my point.
They are stating it because you don't understand the meaning and are trying to basically say that all games since the beginning of gaming is P2W. By your argument why are you even on the internet since that's P2W. See how stupid and asinine that sounds? I've heard more logic in the rambling of a baby than you've presented on these forums.
P2W phrase didn't even come about till Asian style MMO's hit the market in force. Many of the early games where designed with such horrible RNG to try and force you to spend real money to be competitive or even better at every thing than other players. We're not talking about 20 dollars for new content.... we're talking 100's if not 1000's of dollars to get a fully enchanted gear. Think of it this way. Crafters can only make enchants but they have to grow them up from a basic enchant first. Each time you get a higher rank enchant it has a higher chance it can either break, or reduce quality. if you're are very very lucky (normally this would take millions of in game money to achieve this) you'll get a legendary quality enchant.
OR..... you could just buy it off the in game store for a low low price of 10 dollars. And this isn't the only thing they sell. They'll sell items which increase your chance to get higher quality items. Which will still take 100's of dollars if not 1000's for a full set of maxed out gear.
So you see the problem with your argument? You spend 15 dollars for Orsinium, and x amount of time doing vMA to get that BiS weapon. Which only gives you a 2-3% advantage over someone with out it on paper. There is no way to purchase said weapon with out running vMA... and somehow that's P2W.
Sorry I've actually played P2W games.... ESO is not one of them. They are a game company that is trying to make money and make a game that is enjoyable to all it's players. Though they have lowered themselves to include some mechanics that are notorious of P2W games, like loot boxes, but they are far from P2W in the traditional meaning of where the term was coined.
Edited by Xundiin on 8 May 2017 15:40#SavePlayer11 -
THEDKEXPERIENCE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Except ... and here is the big thing you're leaving out ... a BIS staff wins you nothing in PVP. I don't have one, and I "win" plenty.
A maelstrom staff, in the perfect trait, can give you a small spreadsheet advantage but A) it's not given to you requires potentially hundreds of hours of work to get and C) may as well be a broom in PVP if you're up against a seasoned PVPer.
And yes, there is a wrong answer. The one you are trying to shoehorn in. Your mount example is pay to tie. If they were giving a 70 speed mount via money when all you can get is 60 without cash, then you would be correct. You can't so you're not.
And here it is...AGAIN
"Stating something isn't P2W because its insignificant to them"
thank you proving my point.
What point did I prove aside from pointing out that you do not understand what pay to win means?
I understand that people win in different ways but aside from "winning at RP" because you "won" a crown crate mount or dress, you have yet to even remotely state how someone could P2W in this game. P2Tie, sure. No one has one anything.0 -
Belidos✭✭✭✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »Every time I see someone say "its not P2W because you can't kill anybody with it"
In twenty years of MMO gaming, i have yet to actually hear this from one of these someone's.2 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I was blind and stupid enough to not see this thread on page 1 of general discussion, so my thread on this exact topic got locked. What a waste of time lol. I will now post part of it here in stead and change it so that it fits into this thread. Here goes.
The literal definition of 'Winning' (from dictionary.com) is: "to gain the victory; overcome an adversary:". To answer the OP, why do I believe in the literal definition? Well, because that is what it factually means. Simple as that. Please, by all means interpret Pay 2 Win differently, but then don't call it Pay 2 Win. Call it Pay 2 Progress or Pay 2 Skip in stead. I'm not necesarilly saying that Pay to Skip or Pay to Progress can not be bad for the game. For some players, it can be a goal to acquire things faster than other players, or to show off their achievements which they farmed for months. Having someone else get it faster will probably be a negative thing for these players. Especially when they get something in 1 month, that others have to work at least a year for. But does that make it P2W? No it doesn't! That is the difference. And I'm just tired of people misusing P2W, because apparently it is the only possible negative label to be given to cash shop items.
In ESO, when it comes to winning or being able to achieve certain things, there are a couple of facts:
To win a fight in PvP or PvE, or succeed in whatever other part of the game, every player has access to certain tools. These tools are available to everyone and are EQUAL in strength for everyone. Fact.
The only thing that would objectively increase your chances of winning in an equal setting, would be more powerful tools or having access to better tools that others don't have access to. Fact.
Okay. So now we have that out of the way, lets imagine 4 scenario's in which an item is only available with RL cash:
1: Scroll that increases the power of abilities from your weapon skill trees by 20%.
2: Scroll that increases the speed at which you level up your weapon skill trees by 20%.
3: Scroll that gives a unique ability that stuns your opponent for 3 seconds, and ignores CC immunity.
4: Scroll that gives you an ability that is exactly the same as another ability avaible in the base game. The only thing different is the way it looks.
In scenario 1, when you pay, you will become more powerful than other players who don't pay, objecively increasing your chances to win. In other words: Pay 2 Win.
In scenario 2, when you pay, you will progress faster to the maximum level of your weapon skill trees. You will not however become more powerful, so you will not objectively increase your chances of winning. In other words: Not Pay 2 Win.
In scenario 3, when you pay, you get access to a tool that gives you an advantage over other similar tools in the base game, because it offers a unique utility. This objectively increases your chances to win. In other words: Pay 2 Win.
In scenario 4, when you pay, you get access to a tool that is equal in strength and usefulness to other similar tools in the base game. So it will not objectively increase your chances to win. In other words: Not Pay 2 Win.
So we can now safely conclude: ESO is NOT Pay 2 Win.Edited by Koensol on 8 May 2017 15:464 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
First DLC and expansions is excluded. If not WOW is among the worst P2W games out there,RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Why?
If you don't buy the expansion you don't get access to the new levels and new gear, you will do 1/10 of the damage of other and take 10x as much damage.
You can still do the old stuff but all endgame moves to the new.
Yes, WOW is one of the worst P2W offenders because they duped their player base into accepting it.
AGAIN, expansions are NOT exempt, they are simply P2W things large player bases have been duped into accepting. Solid marketing strategies and talking about how insignificant it is in return for content sold it hook, line, and sinker.
PT Barnum said it best:
"there is a sucker born every minute"
You do know that WoW wasn't the first MMO with expansions, right?
(Curiosity: do you also feel that way about game expansions in non-MMO multiplayer games? Like, was Starcraft:Brood War p2w? Or Diablo2:Lord of Destruction?)0 -
STEVIL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MaximusDargus wrote: »Every time I see someone say "its not P2W because you can't kill anybody with it" I can't help to wonder why people still use this P2W definition from the stoneage of MMO gaming.Every person have different goal in game and different condition of "winning". Because of that, depending on what that people want to achieve and what they do in game, they will perceive things in paid shop on different level and and grade them differently whether they are P2W for them or not.And just as I said before, P2W is not exclusive to "an item you can kill someone with", claiming something is absolutely not Pay 2 Win because you cant equip it is wrong on so many levels. Telling that "only if there would be gear 1000x better that what's in game would make it P2W" is not different than imposing your own in game goals on other players, ignoring their playstyle and what they want to achieve in game just as its wrong to tell other player that the way they play game is insignificant and bad (while claiming that something they see as P2W is not because majority of players don't care about it).
Because everyone considers "winning" as something else (again, the win does not need to be necessary killing other player or boss) you can't define a single state where "Game X became P2W". You can only discuss on what fronts game became P2W and then assigning weights to these parts and project it into estimate on what lvl game is P2W overall (still keeping in mind that on some fronts game would be not P2W at all, somewhere it would be a little bit P2W and in other least significant part it could absolutely P2W yet because of insignificance of that part it would not have enough weight for overall image of game).
Month after month, DLC after DLC, patch after patch the line is being drawn and crossed over and over again, more "meaningful" items are added into cash shop, items with more and more impact on gameplay. It started with pets, mounts, costumes. Crown store consumables, exp scrolls, mount upgrades. Adornments, hairstyles, appearance/race change tokens. Crown store exclusive motifs. Seeing that in PTS notes players will be able to obtain Research Scrolls to speed up their trait discovery, following example of Aetherial Ambrosia and 150% experience scrolls, its safe to assume Research Scrolls will also appear in Crown store.
With that in mind, each player needs to answer question on their own, where does the border lie, between "convenience" and "winning", when "saves your time" becomes "gives you edge over other player". If two players set themselves the same goal and start game at the same time, won't the one who uses cash shop to reach that goal get advantage over the 'legit' player, by reaching goal faster and claiming the reward which could be something as simple "being able to move on to other part of game"?
Well, thing is if you use every definition of "win" in P2W you end up with any real world pricing for an item of any nature as being p2w and that makes p2w meaningless.
if i think having a kilt is winning then this month i just got p2w big time.
So lets ratchet up the p2w kilts outrage machine.
even now, p2w is a polymorphic whatever i dont like throwaway as far as i can tell.
But for me i consider most crown store items we see in ESO as P2L... pay to live - either by getting to your goals quicker (less playtime) so you have more time for other activities IRL or as in getting to do the stuff in-game you want to quicker.
While i am not a fan of the p2w arguments, one idea would be to set all the competitive content - pvp and leaderboard pve - to deactivate any crown store items. then any of the competitives would be in-game only acquisition for the most part.Proudly skooma free while talks-when-drunk is in mandatory public housing.
YFMV Your Fun May Vary.
First Law of Nerf-o-Dynamics
"The good way I used to get good kills *with good skill* was good but the way others kill me now is bad."0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Because of a mentally challenged younger online gaming generation that thinks they can misconstrue a terminology for so long and be the loudest, that it becomes true.
No OP, p2w has a very clear and very simple meaning, there is no room for interpretation regardless of how you feel. If your sole purpose for playing the game was to collect all the pets in the game and that activity brought you gratification above all else, and was all you needed in order to be content with logging in every day, placing pets on th3 cash shop exclusively would not make it p2w.
An individual's personal criteria for what constitutes "winning", is irrelevant. The developers set specific win conditions for a game and create paths to achieve said win conditions.
Just to very clear and concise, I will explain the literal objective definition of p2w.
P2w is simply when player power is sold for cash above a limit that is obtainable via in game methods. When a cash shop in a game creates an environment where players that spend money can achieve a power point unreachable by alternate in game methods by players who opt not to spend real money is a pay to win game. Do not confuse this with an mmo that expands it's game and adds additional progression behind paid for content.
It doesn't matter if you would have to grind for months to reach the same power level, it would still not be pay to win. Circumventing or expediting a grind time via cash shop is not pay 2 win regardless of how shifty that would be.
At some point, post league of legends blow up, online gamers of the younger sort started spewing nonsense about online cash shops and f2p games being f2p for various reasons. The truth is that long before f2p was even an afterthought in the West, p2w games thrived in many Asian countries because they were made specifically to milk the lucrative pc bang (ie lan centers) market. If you ever stepped foot in a lan center in the early 2000s, during the golden age of CS 1.6, D2 and WC3 dota, you would likely have walked into a Korean owned establishment and likely would have bad access to at least 2 pure p2w titles.
P2w does not exist outside of the Korean and Chinese market to this day, and sure as *** does not exist in this game or from any major publisher / develoler that sells games in EU and the americas.Edited by exeeter702 on 8 May 2017 17:100 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
First DLC and expansions is excluded. If not WOW is among the worst P2W games out there,RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Why?
If you don't buy the expansion you don't get access to the new levels and new gear, you will do 1/10 of the damage of other and take 10x as much damage.
You can still do the old stuff but all endgame moves to the new.
Yes, WOW is one of the worst P2W offenders because they duped their player base into accepting it.
AGAIN, expansions are NOT exempt, they are simply P2W things large player bases have been duped into accepting. Solid marketing strategies and talking about how insignificant it is in return for content sold it hook, line, and sinker.
PT Barnum said it best:
"there is a sucker born every minute"
MMO's are a prime example of the truth behind this statement.
Just because a P2W mechanic(Expansions) no matter how insignificant they are, are accepted doesn't make them any less P2W.....
Folks are really just arguing over semantics now
VMA and Maw = BIS slot weapons for PVP and PVE
If you don't buy that content and complete them, then you are at a disadvantage. Even if its a insignificant advantage, its still an advantage that you have to pay for which is P2W no matter how insignificant is.
Again, im done arguing...the definitions are clear to anyone who wants to look them up. There is always going to be those who defend the compnay line no matter what, and those who will bash the compnay line no matter what.
I sit firmly in the middle...i have cackled ZOS on stuff that I don't agree with, and have praised them on stuff they do well. I do my best to remain objective. The game still has some fun elements to it, and hasn't pushed the P2W envelope far enough for me personally to care, but to say P2W elements don't exist already in the game is simply being disingenuous.
The shear ridiculousness of this comment has triggered me3 -
ThePonzzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm curious what the stone age of MMOs is. Hopefully you realize it's not WoW or even DAoC.0 -
Xylphan✭✭✭✭LordSkyKnight wrote: »The main issue to me is the vast majority of the gamers today have been mentally conditioned to accept micro transactions. That's why you see the behavior in the vast majority of games today. They consider being able to buy items to speed your leveling or other process along totally acceptable.
To me pay to win equates to paying additional money to bypass standard game mechanics. For example: being able to purchase experience potions to bypass the standard leveling rate is paying to win.
And what do you "win" by doing this? Does progressing faster get you anything that someone else can't acquire through playing the game? Does it give you special advantages? Any special weapons?
Answer: No
You don't "win" anything by level progressing faster. You just reach level cap faster, which is actually useful for vet players who want to create/experiment with new characters.
Sure, some n00b can whale into the store and ramp to level cap. But why? To be practically useless in end game content? To be the equivalent of a 4EVAGANKED pinata in PVP? Hardly "winning".
Same goes for horse scrolls. If your going to play the game regularly there's very little reason to buy horse scrolls. Doing so through the store doesn't convey any advantage. And again, it's a convenience for vet players or players who like to have a plethora of mounts. They just don't want to do the grind again. Or maybe they don't have time because real life prevents them from getting to the game on a regular basis. Regardless, there's no real advantage.
DLCs? Of course they're not free. It takes time and resources to create them. And yes, they have unique items, story lines, etc. But DLCs and such are nothing new, and every MMO has some form of DLC. You're not going to get all the tasty goodness of WoW Legion without actually buying and playing Legion. The same goes for DB, TG, or any other content in this game. The content is PAY TO PLAY, not pay to win.
0 -
FuriousFridge✭✭✭
First DLC and expansions is excluded. If not WOW is among the worst P2W games out there,RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Why?
If you don't buy the expansion you don't get access to the new levels and new gear, you will do 1/10 of the damage of other and take 10x as much damage.
You can still do the old stuff but all endgame moves to the new.
How do you expect them to make money..... just hey here's a free expansion done with all of our hard work and resources spent countless hours on it but you want it free so here it is ! The point of the expansion is to buy it.0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Oh trust me.. you're not the only one. My eyes are bleeding from some of the things he said.exeeter702 wrote: »RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »
First DLC and expansions is excluded. If not WOW is among the worst P2W games out there,RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Lets have a common sense and logical discussion shall we:
1. What is Pay to Win?"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" (p2w) games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay."
- Wikipedia
We have this already with Orsinium, either you have the Orsinium DLC or the BIS weapons for most PVP and many PVE setups (VMA weapons) are locked behind a paywall.
With the Maw of Lorkhaj Trial added in the Thieves Guild DLC, the absolute BIS gear, Jewelry, etc for trials and PVE DPS is again hidden behind a paywall....if you want the absolute BIS items you have to have those two DLC's(Pay a Sub or Buy them) and if you PVP against people who access to these weapons(because they bought the content) you are at a significant disadvantage. This = P2W no matter how many of you ZOS apologists want to try and spin it....the Definition is as clear as Crystal Water.
Introducing BIS gear locked behind paywalls called DLC or expansions are just P2W philosophies people have accepted, it doesn't make them any less P2W....they are just accepted forms of P2W."Pay To Win. When you are paying for advantage which normal players don't have access to unless they either pay too or will have to grind very long (weeks and months)."
- Urban Dictionary
The Horse feeding Crown Store items is flat out a blatant example of this. It would take 180 days to max out Speed, Carry Capacity, and Stamina on a horse if you only feed your horse once a day with in-game gold. That's nearly 6 months....a person with subs crowns can reduce this significantly, and a person who is willing to spend the money can avoid the horse feeding grinding completely. As insignificant as many will come on here and claim this is, your playing right into the hand ZOS wants. Crown Store Horse feeding may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its P2W nontheless. Simply because it allows you to bypass the 180 days it would take to normally max out a horse, thus your paying money to avoid a grind an otherwise non-paying player would have to grind.
Its the same with the XP bonus Subs get, and the increased XP bonus of Crown Scrolls over the makeable EX Buff potions, the Craft Bag...again it may be an insignificant P2W mechanic, but its still P2W nontheless.
The only questions left is:
Can you live or accept these P2W elements?
Do these P2W elements effect your game play personally
There is no right or wrong answer to the two questions above. Everyone has to be their own man or woman and make their own decisions.
I personally no longer sub and only play on and off to PVP with friends and even that is less and less these days. However, that's just my personal preference, and everyone needs to do what they enjoy.
Im just not a big fan of those brushing off clear P2W mechanics that fit the definition of P2W just because its insignificant them...that's what they do in Washington.... its called kicking the can down the curb....what might not be important to you may be important to someone else, so please try to have a little bit of understanding.
Why?
If you don't buy the expansion you don't get access to the new levels and new gear, you will do 1/10 of the damage of other and take 10x as much damage.
You can still do the old stuff but all endgame moves to the new.
Yes, WOW is one of the worst P2W offenders because they duped their player base into accepting it.
AGAIN, expansions are NOT exempt, they are simply P2W things large player bases have been duped into accepting. Solid marketing strategies and talking about how insignificant it is in return for content sold it hook, line, and sinker.
PT Barnum said it best:
"there is a sucker born every minute"
MMO's are a prime example of the truth behind this statement.
Just because a P2W mechanic(Expansions) no matter how insignificant they are, are accepted doesn't make them any less P2W.....
Folks are really just arguing over semantics now
VMA and Maw = BIS slot weapons for PVP and PVE
If you don't buy that content and complete them, then you are at a disadvantage. Even if its a insignificant advantage, its still an advantage that you have to pay for which is P2W no matter how insignificant is.
Again, im done arguing...the definitions are clear to anyone who wants to look them up. There is always going to be those who defend the compnay line no matter what, and those who will bash the compnay line no matter what.
I sit firmly in the middle...i have cackled ZOS on stuff that I don't agree with, and have praised them on stuff they do well. I do my best to remain objective. The game still has some fun elements to it, and hasn't pushed the P2W envelope far enough for me personally to care, but to say P2W elements don't exist already in the game is simply being disingenuous.
The shear ridiculousness of this comment has triggered me
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