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Rewards for tutoring in vet dungeons and trials?

  • Ep1kMalware
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    We old-timers remember when experienced players often took time to teach newbies how to beat bosses, and this happened naturally because the content in 2014 and 2015 was still new to all of us, and the community was smaller, with many dedicated and passionate gamers. Now, after 600 cp, and over a year of grinding the same content, more or less, it's natural that old-timers are no longer that enthusiastic about teaching others how to finish dungeons and trials that have become a grind basically.

    This does not necessarily mean that old-timers are "elitists". It's more likely that most of us simply get bored when new players slow us down, like a racing driver who is forced to drive 30 mph on an old track where he or she is used to drive 5 times as fast as the newbies.

    The best solution is to give us old-timers new content to finish, but devs can never keep up with players who are into "binge gaming", like playing 3-10 hours a day.

    Another solution is to have seperate queues in group finder for newbies and experienced gamers, so that one can only join the veteran queue for a specific dungeon after one has already finished that particular vet dungeon. The problem with group finder today is similar to having a school system where first graders are free to participate in classes attended by twelfth graders. That is bound to create conflicts.

    A third solution that might work, perhaps, is to introduce a Master Teacher skill line, where the pros get rewards for each boss they finish together with 1-2 newbies in a vet dungeon. Countless fantasy books are stories about a wise teacher and a new apprentice, so why shouldn't this be a part of the rpg in ESO too? Can this be done? And will it work sufficiently well?

    Newbies get taught trials all the time. Problems happen when you get too many noobs in the group ppl don't know mechanics, or ppl ragequit because they aren't doing what they're instructed to. Vmol exposure for this real.
  • Zakor
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    As a healer I'm often surprised how bad some people in a dungeon play. And -don't get me wrong at this point- it's not because they don't know the dungeon, it's because they lack the knowledge of pure basic mechanics like blocking, doting or dodge rolls. With this in mind a pure mentor system would hardly change that problem.

    The problem we have to adress occurs much earlier. The first and only time you learn how to block, roll and interrupt is in the tutorial. Sure, sometimes you have those clues poping up on screen, but seriously: you are new to the game, you don't know what you do in combat, that damn huge monsters stands in your face and then you shall read that tiny hint? That just isn't working.

    So how to solve this now? The idea came up a few times already since the launch of the game (or at least undaunted enclave launch): we need undaunted dungeon training. I don't care if you call it an academy, practice ground or whatever. But we REALLY need REPEATABLE scenarios where you not only learn the basic mechanics of the game but also the mechanics of a specific role.

    I would suggest before running your first dungeon -we all remember the undaunted quest that send us to our first dungeon around lvl 8- you are instead send to said training ground. You are shown the importance of the key mechanics first and then a short tutorial for a chosen dungeon role follows (like importance to taunt as tank, DoTs and abilities as DD (I look at you LA spamming bow users!) and heals for healers). You can repeat this at any given time and also do the tutorials for the other roles. After that, you may run dungeons. Important is in this case, that veteran players shouldn't have to do this on every char. Once for each role should be enough.

    For veteran dungeons on the other hand I would suggest another training. Not to learn mechanics, but to test your power. This would reduce frustration in most dungeon runs, while this test could also give players more advice how to improve their character without looking for advice out of the game (ex. change the +phys resist set for + dmg set). You shouldn't be able to queue for vet dungeons in group finder until this is finished. You anyhow SHOULD be able to enter the dungeon with a premade group (guildies for example).

    If THIS system is in place and working you THEN can add a mentor system with a seperate mentor queue in the groupfinder. Players who have finished the dungeon can decide if they queue as mentor or normal. You can obviously only queue as mentor if you completed that dungeon (multiple times maybe?). Players who haven't done that dungeon ever before automaticly queue as students. Again, once per account should be enough to don't punish vet players too much. So while I would still require the power test for all chars, players who have done a dungeon already on any char shouldn't queue as students anymore.

    To lure people into the mentor role there should be a reward. Important is that this reward is no skilline, nothing unique and so on. Else you would get people into the mentor role that just want the reward. Crafting mats, gold, undaunted keys or exp scrolls/potions could work.
    Edited by Zakor on 6 May 2017 13:26
  • ChaosWotan
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    @Zakor

    I totally agree with what you are saying. It's the best solution. And it has to come sooner or later. The main temporary inconvenience is that ESO will prb present such a complex mentoring system as a DLC, which means that we have to go six months without new storyline content. Like the way Homestead and One Tamriel have contributed nothing new in terms of new storylines.

    So a quick fix is to just create a mentoring queue, with rewards for mentors.
  • Daemons_Bane
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    @Daemons_Bane

    "Basically, you are just promoting a system that will give players more skills for ending with low level players in the random queue"

    This is the quickest solution for the devs if they don't want to create a more complex mentoring system. It's far from perfect, but the main point is to get veterans and newbies to cooperate in dungeons, and it will serve that purpose, since very few veterans will complete a difficult dungeon with a newbie if the latter is not told what to do at each boss.

    If the newbie status is tied to the account, it will also be difficult for players to abuse this system.

    The quickest solution is bad then, as it don't enhance the chances of "pro" players actually helping new ones in any way.. There are no feature ensuring that the "pro" player will do anything to teach.. They might just as well just rush it as they've always done, leaving the newbs to fend for themselves.. The suggestion you threw up might just as well result in more "pro" players getting into the system to farm new skills, yelling NOOB at people, to no positive result
  • ChaosWotan
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    @Daemons_Bane

    In order to get xp for the skill line a veteran must finish a dungeon together with a newbie, and therefore it's unlikely that a pro is going to waste time and energy on yelling at a newbie when that vet knows that he or she must get the newbie through the dungeon in order to level the mentor skill line.

    Ofc, there will always be some total idiots among both the newbies and the vets who are going to *** things up, but they will prb make a mess of things no matter which system the devs create. In an mmo one must always be prepared for meeting that tiny minority who are psychologically or neurologically incapable of behaving, but most gamers are not like that. They just need the right incentive.
  • Daemons_Bane
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    @Daemons_Bane

    In order to get xp for the skill line a veteran must finish a dungeon together with a newbie, and therefore it's unlikely that a pro is going to waste time and energy on yelling at a newbie when that vet knows that he or she must get the newbie through the dungeon in order to level the mentor skill line.

    What stops this "pro" from just speedrunning the entire thing, thus leaving the newb with nothing learnt?

    Edit: If you put aside the fact that I'm agains the entire " I'm "Pro" so I should get rewarded " crap, your idea has 2 huge flaws as I see it..
    1: You have absolutely no way to guarantee that the newbs get the tutoring that you want to reward a "pro" for giving..
    2: You have absolutely no way to guarantee that the "pro" actually knows anything..

    Edited by Daemons_Bane on 6 May 2017 19:45
  • ChaosWotan
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    Well, if the pro is able to carry a newbie through a vet dungeon, then the newbie has at least learned a tiny bit, and also got rewards, so he or she is better off than not having finished the dungeon at all. Then the newbie can join the mentoring queue again, and most likely find a better mentor, sooner or later.

    Edited by ChaosWotan on 6 May 2017 19:44
  • Daemons_Bane
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    Well, if the pro is able to carry a newbie through a vet dungeon, then the newbie has at least learned a tiny bit, and also got rewards, so he or she is better off than not having finished the dungeon at all. Then the newbie can join the mentoring queue again, and most likely find a better mentor, sooner or later.

    That's just not enough, by a long shot.. That's how the system works now, but you just want players to get rewards for it.. You need to flesh out your suggestion some more
  • ChaosWotan
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    The system doesn't work like that now, because many newbies get quickly kicked or the pro leaves the group. Psychologically it's also likely that the majority of pros will be more patient and not yell as much when he or she knows that there is a nice reward after the dungeon is finished.
  • Daemons_Bane
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    Psychologically it's also likely that the majority of pros will be more patient and not yell as much when he or she knows that there is a nice reward after the dungeon is finished.

    Prove that.. They might just as well, as mentioned, just speedrun the whole damn thing to GET that reward.. Your suggestion has just as much chance to result in a worse experience for the newb

  • ChaosWotan
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    Can't see how it can be worse for the newbie to have actually finished a vet dungeon. Even if a newbie is unlucky enough to get ten speed runs in a row, he or she will learn things, get gear items from bosses, and get two undaunted keys each time.

    Edited by ChaosWotan on 6 May 2017 20:06
  • Daemons_Bane
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    Can't see how it can be worse for the newbie to have actually finished a vet dungeon. Even if a newbie is unlucky to get ten speed runs in a row, he or she will learn things, and get two undaunted keys each time.

    Maybe that's because you seem to focus on the GOAL.. I worry about the ROAD.. You want to implement one of the things I hate the most, and do it in a way that only ensures that the end lvl player has a guaranteed win..
  • ChaosWotan
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    If a vet is able to speed run a dungeon, he or she will most likely not yell at the newbie, since the pro doesn't lose much time in any case if he or she is strong enough to carry the newbie. The road for the newbie will therefore be better than now.

    And pls remember that vet trials and dungeons are end-game content, primarily created to challenge old-timers and those with lots of talents.

    Ordinary quests and normal mode challenges are for casuals and roleplaying gamers.
  • Daemons_Bane
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    If a vet is able to speed run a dungeon, he or she will most likely not yell at the newbie, since the pro doesn't lose much time in any case if he or she is strong enough to carry the newbie. The road for the newbie will therefore be better than now.

    And pls remember that vet trials and dungeons are end-game content, primarily created to challenge old-timers and those with lots of talents.

    Ordinary quests and normal mode challenges are for casuals and roleplaying gamers.

    The speedrun way, is not the good way for everyone.. Some people don't want to just rush from mob to mob the fastest way possible.. Yes, vet dungeons may have been created as endgame content, but they are available to most players.. Therefore, you must take newbs into account.. Plus I think you set your baseline for players too high.. You seems to expect that if a person has run a dungeon 10 times, that player will know the dungeon and it's mechanics
  • ChaosWotan
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    Not convinced by your arguments, so we just have to agree to disagree :)
  • Daemons_Bane
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    We've been at that state from the start.. You are never, in any way, going to see me agree to the suggestion that "pro" players should get more bonuses than anyone else
  • ChaosWotan
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    "Pro" players will always get lot of stuff that newbies and casuals will never get unless they play a lot, for a long time. Btw, I'm talking about cosmetic rewards.
  • Daemons_Bane
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    "Pro" players will always get lot of stuff that newbies and casuals will never get unless they play a lot, for a long time. Btw, I'm talking about cosmetic rewards.

    I don't mind them having stuff at all.. I talk about skills/perks.. Cosmetics should probably in general be kept out of skill lines

    Also, I never understand why people want stuff for helping others.. Why is the knowledge that you helped a new player not enough for you guys.. Can't you do it without needing some physical proof to show off?
    Edited by Daemons_Bane on 6 May 2017 20:31
  • ChaosWotan
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    How about a Master Teacher skill line which gives advantages related to crafting, housing, thievery and other roleplaying stuff, so that mentoring will attract pros that are both into rpg and competitive endgame content?

    Roleplaying is more pro-social than speedrun gaming, so the above-mentioned skill line will prb keep away those selfish veterans who become silly angerballs and get dungeon rage if they lose 10 min because of a newbie when doing their daily pledges.

    "Why is the knowledge that you helped a new player not enough for you guys."

    Have already answered that in the OP. One got to stay real. If you give "pros" a nudge in the right direction, then it's more likely that newbies will get help or at least be "carried" through a dungeon by all those vets who are roughly speaking 50 percent selfish and 50 percent altruistic.

    Edited by ChaosWotan on 6 May 2017 21:42
  • Prof_Bawbag
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    Edit: Nevermind

    Edited by Prof_Bawbag on 6 May 2017 22:02
  • Daemons_Bane
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    ChaosWotan wrote: »
    If you give "pros" a nudge in the right direction, then it's more likely that newbies will get help or at least be "carried" through a dungeon by all those vets who are roughly speaking 50 percent selfish and 50 percent altruistic.

    It might, some day.. But I think you'd need to re-design your idea first

    Edit: Tell you what.. If nothing else it has been a pleasure debating with you, since it could be kept in a civil tone.. I'm not likely to agree to the system you suggest, but I'll throw in some suggestions as to how I might think it could be improved.. Just have patience with me till morning.. Too tired to post it now :blush:
    Edited by Daemons_Bane on 6 May 2017 22:53
  • F7sus4
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    Speaking about how effectively the game is training new players...

    Meanwhile in ESO (7th May 2017):

    ESO_bullsnip.png

    Meanwhile in the last Patch Notes:
    • The elemental status effect Concussed now applies Minor Vulnerability to enemies instead of Minor Maim.

    The list is long and the point is - how do you expect the game to teach players how to play when even the tutorial is outdated and misinforming...
  • Daemons_Bane
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    So, got some sleep in now :smile: Let's look this over..

    If this idea was ever to work, I'd like to see it work, not by having the "pro" players do the work, so to speak.. Instead of them getting a free skill line for just participating in a dungeon with newbs, let the newbs hand out the rewards.. How about a system where a newb can simply hold F, like adding a friend, and then put a vote in for the "pro".. When a "pro" has collected enough votes, he could for example get a new title, indicating to people around him that many new players found him helpful and informative in dungeons..

    This vote option should only be available when inside a dungeon, and only for players below a certain cp level or maybe based on time played.. Furthermore, I would suggest that each newb can only give 1 vote to each "pro" to prevent farming to some degree.. Ofc it would always be farmable since "pro" players can just bribe them with gold though..

    This is still extremely basic, but imo it would give you a more realistic way to use the system you would like to see implemented..
  • Biro123
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    Never understood this need for 'rewards'.. I've always thought that having fun playing the game should be its own reward. I you're not having fun playing, why are you playing?

    I mean would adding a reward suddenly make it fun? Or is it just adding the illusion of fun?

    Imho, work is the thing you have to do for rewards - because it generally isn't fun - and the rewards (paycheck) are therefore the only reason we do it.

    So, you gotta ask yourself - Is ESO fun or is it Work...?

    (btw, this ties in with stuff like 'why nerf stuff we've 'WORKED' for? etc.)
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  • ChaosWotan
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    @Daemons_Bane

    Your idea is even more basic, so it should be even easier for ESO to implement it. But guess chosen pros will be overrun by newbies, or the opposite: not enough mentors around when newbies have time to play. Still, your idea is better than nothing, and will help a lot of new players.

    @Biro123

    Many old-timers do pledges and trials mainly to grind for gear or get fast xp in speedruns, because ESO has become old and pretty boring, but we are addicted to it, and no better mmo around. So we hang in there, with reduced patience for newbies. Unless a new system of rewards turns being pro-social in vet dungeons into a "grind goal" in itself. Then pros will chase these rewards in the same way that they do VMA three hundred times in an attempt to get a sharpened weapon.

    In short, we need a game system which keeps both pros and newbies happy when they cooperate. Relying on altruism doesn't work, and that's a proven fact.
  • Furinol
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    Neat idea op. I'm a noob in eso but was a very experienced wow player so I see both sides. Ran my first group dungeon (at 254 cp -feel free to have a laugh at that) and I felt bad because there was a mechanic I screwed up two times in a row that made a fight needlessly difficult. What's worse is I couldn't get my comms working right so I couldn't even hear the hate (or advice) that the group leader was no doubt spewing my way (I could see the names on the bottom right so I know they were trying to speak to me). I felt pretty bad about putting vets through that. I would love a way to denote that it is my first time in group finder etc...
  • Daemons_Bane
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    My idea may be more basic yeah.. But I think it has a better chance to ensure that the newbs would get the tutelage that the "pro" players could offer and get rewarded for
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