no punishment for outposts flipping

Waseem · April 2017

Was a great day to play lute on indeed.
now i am on 3 days vacation traveling through the Caribbean ( hope that's a nice excuse that places the angels O atop of my head.)
#never_again

maxjapank · April 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

Why would grinding goblins in CWC not be intended gameplay? It's killing mobs which is intended gameplay. Unless the mobs are bugged and are giving out more experience than every other mob in the game I disagree with your conclusion.

Oh and "silence gives consent" is one of the most ridiculous justifications I have ever heard. Do I need to show real world examples where that kind of justification would lead to?

Why would keep flipping not be intended gameplay ? It's flipping keeps which is intended gameplay. The keeps weren't "bugged" nor giving more XP than intended.
And yes, in the specific context of a communication between the law-maker and the citizen, if the citizen asks a question and the law-maker/administration doesn't answer, silence gives consent. That's the law here in EU.
In many contexts one can consider that the answer is "no" unless it's expressedly a "yes", but not this one.

Fighting to win the flags is pvp and intended. Trading flags without fighting is not. Not sure what's so hard to understand.

kevlarto_ESO · April 2017

Glad to see something was done, I wish we could get the same kind of break down for people being banned for other things, like running unauthorized modifications and such.

Thanks this is a start in the right direction to cleaning up the cesspool that pvp has become.

L2Pissue · April 2017

Lets not lie on each other, there is a reason why ZOS did that, its to look like they punish exploiters. "to look like"

while its not an exploit like 2 or more mundus stones or the usage of underground add-ons, they did it to show the rest of players that "proper measures IS BEING TAKING against exploits",, that is the keyword,,, "show"

look on real exploits we had in the past like the infinite writ surveys, those stuff ruin economy and the people who exploited them did not get banned (maybe because they paid 5000 crowns for the banker?)

2 mundus stone exploiters, cheat engine and underground "add-ons" users are playing ESO daily and no proper measures is being taken against them, and Zenimax is so happy to suspend the accounts of some players who did not harm anyone but party and get AP.

tradewith2017 · April 2017

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
hey
can you please tell us wich part of ToS this behav violated?
because i cannot find any

"roleplaying" in PVP its not an exploit but just clever way to pvp for some people

AbraXuSeXile · April 2017

Theyve unbanned a lot of people who was perma banned. That just contradicts any proper punishment.

Turelus · April 2017

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Theyve unbanned a lot of people who was perma banned. That just contradicts any proper punishment.

Do you expect anything else at this point. ZOS doesn't take the games security or integrity seriously, they never have (sadly) and almost all actions have been token efforts to quiet the mob for a time.

I've made endless posts about how "lesser" companies can do better but that's not how corporate America works, you don't invest in what isn't losing you money.

Well that's my cynical rant for the day, back to not caring and enjoying my dailies.

mouton · April 2017

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
"roleplaying" in PVP its not an exploit but just clever way to pvp for some people

HA HA HA Ha ha !
HAHAhaha !

"Roleplaying" (in quotes, as you're writing) ... I saw this excuse so many times already :')

Anyway, when being insulted by "roleplaying" cheaters, farming on flags when you try to get back the keep and secure it, sorry, you all deserve it. It's a Player vs. Player area, that's not a theater stage.
And for all the ToS this behavior violated, just read this thread.

Very well done ZOS.

Didgerion · April 2017

Poor handling of their own fault. Shame on you ZOS.

You need to say sorry to those players who spent hours to farm those AP points using intended game mechanics and roll back the AP points that you suddenly qualified as exploit.

No bans should be applied without warnings.

A big part of this game is farming and players form groups to farm items in most efficient way.

Today In my CoA run I got all pieces of BSW set from group members of different alliances, Is it intended? Will I get banned for this? I don't know what to think anymore?

Is dueling in Cyrodiil allowed? Opposite factions make an agreement there too.

Is farming resources for AP by luring in lots of novice players allowed? that looks broken too it brings ton of AP as well.

Just stop banning people for your own mistakes please seriously. It is so Middle Age to sentence people without a trial.

Turelus · April 2017

Didgerion wrote: »

Poor handling of their own fault. Shame on you ZOS.

You need to say sorry to those players who spent hours to farm those AP points using intended game mechanics and roll back the AP points that you suddenly qualified as exploit.

No bans should be applied without warnings.

A big part of this game is farming and players form groups to farm items in most efficient way.

Today In my CoA run I got all pieces of BSW set from group members of different alliances, Is it intended? Will I get banned for this? I don't know what to think anymore?

Is dueling in Cyrodiil allowed? Opposite factions make an agreement there too.

Is farming resources for AP by luring in lots of novice players allowed? that looks broken too it brings ton of AP as well.

Just stop banning people for your own mistakes please seriously. It is so Middle Ages to sentence people without a trial.

I think they handled it well with temp bans. If anyone got a perma-ban it would be because they had a history of abusing issues.

Still, they had plenty of chances to curb this with comments and as I said many time many of the people I spoke with doing this would have stopped if they knew it was an exploit. Everyone knew it was against the spirit of the game but no one knew it was against ToS as there was not precedent for working with enemies to be so.

Biro123 · April 2017

Lol..

I've never read through the ToS in detail for ESO - but in EVERY OTHER MMO I've played, they''ve always said its against the ToS to knowingly exploit a bug or mechanic for your own gain.

You guys KNEW it was wrong before you did it, while you were doing it and after the event. I cannot believe people have the front to complain about getting handed a little chastisement... The generation of entitlement is real....

On a side-note. The usual morning AD PVDoor zerg on EU was very small today.... :-)

Turelus · April 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Lol..

I've never read throught he ToS in detail for ESO - but in EVERY OTHER MMO I've played, they''ve always said its against the ToS to knowingly exploit a bog or mechanic for your own gain.

You guys KNEW it was worng before you did it, while you were doing it and after the event. I cannot believe people have the front to complain about getting handed a little chastisement... The generation of entitlement is real....

On a side-note. The usual morning AD PVDoor zerg on EU was very small today.... :-)

This wasn't a bug though, no part of it was broken code or mechanics, everything was working as intended.

This was unforeseen (though pointed out) player activities. Which is why I feel ZOS made the right call with temp bans, it was clear this wasn't their intent but at the same time it wasn't an exploit in the traditional sense.
ZOS only made it worse by not saying anything even with the mass of posts and threads about the issue, they stayed silent on the issue until this weekend.

Now we clearly know now that this isn't allowed and we have a basis to work with, but I do feel ZOS ( @ZOS_BrianWheeler ) need to have some clear information on what is and isn't allowed player behaviour in Cyrodiil. Not a definitive list (as things will happen not on it) but somewhere every player new and old can clearly see what they should and shouldn't be doing.

Biro123 · April 2017

Turelus wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lol..

I've never read throught he ToS in detail for ESO - but in EVERY OTHER MMO I've played, they''ve always said its against the ToS to knowingly exploit a bog or mechanic for your own gain.

You guys KNEW it was worng before you did it, while you were doing it and after the event. I cannot believe people have the front to complain about getting handed a little chastisement... The generation of entitlement is real....

On a side-note. The usual morning AD PVDoor zerg on EU was very small today.... :-)

This wasn't a bug though, no part of it was broken code or mechanics, everything was working as intended.

This was unforeseen (though pointed out) player activities. Which is why I feel ZOS made the right call with temp bans, it was clear this wasn't their intent but at the same time it wasn't an exploit in the traditional sense.
ZOS only made it worse by not saying anything even with the mass of posts and threads about the issue, they stayed silent on the issue until this weekend.

Now we clearly know now that this isn't allowed and we have a basis to work with, but I do feel ZOS ( @ZOS_BrianWheeler ) need to have some clear information on what is and isn't allowed player behaviour in Cyrodiil. Not a definitive list (as things will happen not on it) but somewhere every player new and old can clearly see what they should and shouldn't be doing.

I disagree - It was a broken mechanic - in that yes, it was working as intended when keeps were fought over - as intended in Cyro - but it was easily exploitable by flipping in an unintended way - and the ToS are usually written to basically say that if you find something that is exploitable - (which usually happens by doing something in the way the dev's didn't intend or expect) - you should report it, not do it and not tell anyone about it.

Its pretty straight forward.

I mean yes, Zos could have done more in communicating it - but only a small portion of the playerbase uses the forums so I'm not really sure what the best mechanism for that would have been - but even so, EVERYONE agreed to the ToS before playing the game.

Turelus · April 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Lol..

I've never read throught he ToS in detail for ESO - but in EVERY OTHER MMO I've played, they''ve always said its against the ToS to knowingly exploit a bog or mechanic for your own gain.

You guys KNEW it was worng before you did it, while you were doing it and after the event. I cannot believe people have the front to complain about getting handed a little chastisement... The generation of entitlement is real....

On a side-note. The usual morning AD PVDoor zerg on EU was very small today.... :-)

This wasn't a bug though, no part of it was broken code or mechanics, everything was working as intended.

This was unforeseen (though pointed out) player activities. Which is why I feel ZOS made the right call with temp bans, it was clear this wasn't their intent but at the same time it wasn't an exploit in the traditional sense.
ZOS only made it worse by not saying anything even with the mass of posts and threads about the issue, they stayed silent on the issue until this weekend.

Now we clearly know now that this isn't allowed and we have a basis to work with, but I do feel ZOS ( @ZOS_BrianWheeler ) need to have some clear information on what is and isn't allowed player behaviour in Cyrodiil. Not a definitive list (as things will happen not on it) but somewhere every player new and old can clearly see what they should and shouldn't be doing.

I disagree - It was a broken mechanic - in that yes, it was working as intended when keeps were fought over - as intended in Cyro - but it was easily exploitable by flipping in an unintended way - and the ToS are usually written to basically say that if you find something that is exploitable - (which usually happens by doing something in the way the dev's didn't intend or expect) - you should report it, not do it and not tell anyone about it.

Its pretty straight forward.

I mean yes, Zos could have done more in communicating it - but only a small portion of the playerbase uses the forums so I'm not really sure what the best mechanism for that would have been - but even so, EVERYONE agreed to the ToS before playing the game.

But there are so many other cases where this kind of behaviour has happened and nothing has been done.

Full Emperor trading.
Agreements between factions to dethrone your own emp so the new leader (your guild member) can be crowned.
Trading kills in duels for achievements.
Queueing with rival factions to enter Cyrodiil and bypass caps (confirmation still in question).
Running scrolls with rival faction alts.

All of this is not intended mechanics, but has been going on for years with nothing from ZOS. It all requires co-operation between rival players/factions to get something which should be played for normally.

I am not saying what happened is right by any means, people knew it was a jerk move but they had no basis to believe it was against the ToS.

prootch · April 2017

Turelus wrote: »

I am not saying what happened is right by any means, people knew it was a jerk move but they had no basis to believe it was against the ToS.

Well, some already had been sanctioned over flipping roe bugged mine just a few weeks ago... so they could have guessed.
And it was not unforeseen, zos had been warned of this behaviour as soon as information on ap value was known.

Now it's real

to see self proclaimed pvp pros caught in this lulz

not only some lame ap swapping were recorded on vids, but we all got confirmation of that ap impulsive "greed over anything else" with their bans. Fresh.

Biro123 wrote: »

On a side-note. The usual morning AD PVDoor zerg on EU was very small today.... :-)

Yeah some of them AD woodemp heroes are on holidays...
Now some can come again and lecture us all about "nice gameplay"

Turelus · April 2017

prootch wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am not saying what happened is right by any means, people knew it was a jerk move but they had no basis to believe it was against the ToS.

Well, some already had been sanctioned over flipping roe bugged mine just a few weeks ago... so they could have guessed.
And it was not unforeseen, zos had been warned of this behaviour as soon as information on ap value was known.

The mine was actually a bug though, so that's where we enter the "it's wrong because it's bugged" which Brian said it wasn't intended, but didn't say "trading for AP is not allowed".

Again, glad ZOS did this, I want more of it. However we need to know their rules for Cyrodiil at the same time.

BohnT · April 2017

Turelus wrote: »

prootch wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am not saying what happened is right by any means, people knew it was a jerk move but they had no basis to believe it was against the ToS.

Well, some already had been sanctioned over flipping roe bugged mine just a few weeks ago... so they could have guessed.
And it was not unforeseen, zos had been warned of this behaviour as soon as information on ap value was known.

The mine was actually a bug though, so that's where we enter the "it's wrong because it's bugged" which Brian said it wasn't intended, but didn't say "trading for AP is not allowed".

Again, glad ZOS did this, I want more of it. However we need to know their rules for Cyrodiil at the same time.

Are you for real? Just stop it, everyone who got banned deserves it and everyone of those who are pissed and leave the game make the game a better place. They knew it may be exploiting---> ToS says if you are not sure don't do it. They did it ----> they risked the ban and deserved it
End of the discussion.

prootch · April 2017

AP trading was not allowed ever, that's nothing new : some had already been vid recorded and banned for ap trading on ressources with the help of other faction players, long before the roe mine bug. I cannot publish the names, but the vid showing ap swapping for emp position are on youtube.

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

"roleplaying" in PVP its not an exploit but just clever way to pvp for some people

Roleplaying is a poor excuse for wanabe cheaters. It's a pity not all abusers got sanctionned tho. As it's real clear people with 20+M ap were abusing and got banned, some others could also be sanctionned in proportion to their abuse.

Roleplaying ^^ the lulz crusaders are laughing their asses off.
It's sot fresh to see some usual pvp rageboyz actually banned and their likes QQing more on forum.

Turelus · April 2017

BohnT wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

prootch wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

I am not saying what happened is right by any means, people knew it was a jerk move but they had no basis to believe it was against the ToS.

Well, some already had been sanctioned over flipping roe bugged mine just a few weeks ago... so they could have guessed.
And it was not unforeseen, zos had been warned of this behaviour as soon as information on ap value was known.

The mine was actually a bug though, so that's where we enter the "it's wrong because it's bugged" which Brian said it wasn't intended, but didn't say "trading for AP is not allowed".

Again, glad ZOS did this, I want more of it. However we need to know their rules for Cyrodiil at the same time.

Are you for real? Just stop it, everyone who got banned deserves it and everyone of those who are pissed and leave the game make the game a better place. They knew it may be exploiting---> ToS says if you are not sure don't do it. They did it ----> they risked the ban and deserved it
End of the discussion.

Please point to where I said people don't deserve bans. Please also point to where in the or said by a developer (before Jessica's post) it was stated trading AP was a breach of ToS.

Jessica said it herself.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

As this is the first time we've publicly taken mass action on accounts for this behavior, we've kept it to a three-day suspensions and removal of all AP from the top offenders.

They've never before stepped in and taken action against anything like this and there was a precedent set by that (and their lack of condemning it) that trading with other players wasn't against ToS.

I'm not saying those banned were unjustly banned, I am not saying they were good people for doing this. I am saying that ZOS saying "you should have known" isn't fair because there wasn't anything to support this was against ToS.

I am asking that ZOS now comes out and makes a simple pinned thread with actions within Cyrodiil which are against ToS but are not direct exploits of broken mechanics. As new players joining the game have no information to say they shouldn't gap close into a keep, they shouldn't make spies and run scrolls etc.

prootch · April 2017

Yes they did take previous action against ap swappers.
Some got banned a few weeks before for the same reason on roe mine (both bug abusing and ap swapping) and before that some got banned for emp grind ap swapping.

Now sure it would be very efficient to have a number of "bans per kind of abuse" list published somewhere @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
It would be clear for all wanabe cheaters.

Turelus · April 2017

prootch wrote: »

Yes they did take previous action against ap swappers.

Links to information on this which isn't the bugged resource one.

I am willing to say concede that I am wrong if I am, I might post like a jerk but I'm far from being one.

I just want to try and reinforce how ZOS should be making this information clear. If I have been here since beta (with a short break) and have never seen them post or speak on this then it goes to show how hard that information is to come by.

Elsonso · April 2017

Turelus wrote: »

I am asking that ZOS now comes out and makes a simple pinned thread with actions within Cyrodiil which are against ToS but are not direct exploits of broken mechanics. As new players joining the game have no information to say they shouldn't gap close into a keep, they shouldn't make spies and run scrolls etc.

They need to do more than that. ToS gray areas exist all over the game, and even where it is not that gray, people misunderstand, intentionally or not, what the ToS means.

They need someone who can answer ToS questions from all parts of the game. Someone who is not acting in the role of a messenger, like Gina and Jessica.

This person needs to be able to end ToS debates in the forum with a single comment, and do it in a timely manner. That answer needs to then be added to a sticky post, or knowledge base, of ToS wisdom.

prootch · April 2017

I'll /w you @turelus about what I know ingame (cannot publish names here).

Now I agree with you some more public information on ban list reasons would be quite efficient to - prevent - that kind of situation.

Yet now trying to make believe that people did not know it was against the spirit of ZOS AvA to coordinate cross faction ap swapping is something that is still making our whole guild lulz.

We... got no ban, our people were warned about the roe mine precedent where some of our well known enemies got sanctionned (and some previous well know ap swapper sanction), and it was enough for everyone to get the clear message that ap swapping was not allowed.

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

People will always make excuses to get what they want . It is like the N1H1 Devs reading the excuses of cheaters on YouTube and laughing . They will say the most far fetched ludicrous things to avoid responsibility . They think long winded arguments distract the basics of the issue . It's ZOS's game . They make the rules . Don't like the rules , don't play . No one is forced to be here . They are not going to reverse this call and let players farm AP with no conflicts in a PVP zone . They know real PVP players will walk away from their game . They should of done this sooner when the Emp trading started . The game has so many guilds that actually like to PVP and earn titles , it out weighs the rest .

I hope @ZOS_BrianWheeler will do a write up on this and make even more rules clear . I hope @ZOS_RichLambert will also make a statement explaining PVP rules so there is no more of this complaining from people that have to be explained to what a PVP zone is . Moving forward so this behavior just goes away or the people that can't learn how to behave in a PVP zone just go away .

Turelus · April 2017

lordrichter wrote: »

They need to do more than that. ToS gray areas exist all over the game, and even where it is not that gray, people misunderstand, intentionally or not, what the ToS means.

They need someone who can answer ToS questions from all parts of the game. Someone who is not acting in the role of a messenger, like Gina and Jessica.

This person needs to be able to end ToS debates in the forum with a single comment, and do it in a timely manner. That answer needs to then be added to a sticky post, or knowledge base, of ToS wisdom.

This is something CCP Games actually do with their GM staff. You can send a ticket with a question about something and they'll come back saying if it's legit or not.

CCP Example

I remember when they changed a mechanic so you could shoot NPC convoys ships and the stations right next to you would no longer open fire. I submitted a ticket and within a day had an answer from a senior GM (they have normal and then senior GM's) saying it's fine and not a bug so I can proceed.
From there I had a clear point to do as I wished and knowledge that I was protected under that message. Now this system was abused by some who would send broad questions like "is everything in this wormhole working as intended" rather the the key bug which they were exploiting, but for the most part it's clear.

Here is all the ways I contacted ZOS about this and got nothing back about it.

Now at any point in that, in the threads, or on ESO Live something could have been said and everyone would have stopped. However nothing was.

xRIVALENx · April 2017

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
hey
can you please tell us wich part of ToS this behav violated?
because i cannot find any

"roleplaying" in PVP its not an exploit but just clever way to pvp for some people

Section 8 - Rules of Conduct.

Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;

Coordinated flipping of keeps without combat was not intended by ZOS, the mechanic was exploited.

Turelus · April 2017

xRIVALENx wrote: »

QT_DevTeam wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom
hey
can you please tell us wich part of ToS this behav violated?
because i cannot find any

"roleplaying" in PVP its not an exploit but just clever way to pvp for some people

Section 8 - Rules of Conduct.

Promote, upload, transmit, encourage or take part in any activity involving hacking, cracking, phishing, taking advantage of exploits or cheats and/or distribution of counterfeit software and/or Virtual Currency or virtual items. In an effort to continuously improve the Services, You and other players discovering exploits, cheats, cracks or other inconsistencies are required to report them to ZeniMax;

Coordinated flipping of keeps without combat was not intended by ZOS, the mechanic was exploited.

This wasn't a broken mechanic though, it was a perfectly legal mechanic which just required rival faction player cooperation. That's why we (including those using it) kept asking ZOS what the deal was.

If this is so against the ToS why didn't everyone get banned for farming Emperor back in the day? This is what people are confused about any want clarification on.

xRIVALENx · April 2017

It was a mechanic that was exploited or taken advantage of. I do agree with you, more people should have been banned back in the day.

Turelus · April 2017

xRIVALENx wrote: »

It was a mechanic that was exploited or taken advantage of. I do agree with you, more people should have been banned back in the day.

So if it was so black and white why couldn't anyone at ZOS give us an answer a month ago?

xRIVALENx · April 2017

They shouldn't have to when something is so blatantly obvious. That being said, the resource flipping ban should have been a good indicator.