no punishment for outposts flipping

Turelus · April 2017

Paraflex wrote: »

I think the best part is if you exploited the banker survey months ago plus exploited AP Boosting you got a perma ban...strike one if you only AP boosted and I hope they are fearful on the next exploit because I'd bet these people will exploit in the future who got banned today.

We all know it's a matter of time for another exploit I hope these people have harsher punishments.

I know I am going against my norm on this as a "just get on with bans" but I do feel sorry for those who got hit with a perma ban over this.

The survey bug ZOS actually came out and said "don't do it" (unless my memory is failing me) where's this they gave no warnings to tell people actions would be taken.
I feel much of this could have been stopped at the time if they said "we will take action if you do this" but they kept quiet which in normal ZOS ways means it's fine to keep doing it.

I still think ZOS really needs to act faster to say "this isn't allowed" then they have the freedom to take a month to review and ban. I am happy bans happened for this, but I am sad it was a sneak-attack ban as something should have been said earlier.

Edit: Spelling, drinking more coffee now.

eso_lags · April 2017

I know there are / were a lot of forum posts about this, and i dont agree with the keep flipping, but i just feel like they should have responded. They knew it was a risk, and it took me 2 seconds to find a post about it during the event that week, and there were a few. Something like " ya you can and will be banned for doing this ". Thats it.

I cant seem to find the post anymore but day 1-2 of the event, someone with a lot of rows of stars ( maybe 3+ rows ? ) was saying that is was 100% legal for people to do this, explaining why it was and telling players that they wouldn't get banned for this.. Seems a little odd that the post has just vanished, because trust and believe i was arguing with people about it in game, but when i saw that i just shut my mouth. Mainly because zos didnt say anything about it!! Just like all my posts about why vma on xb1 is very laggy and crashing at least once per run for me and many others for well over 6 months, no answers ever.

But yeah, seems that the post is gone now. Found others talking about it, but that one legit said it was not ban-able. And i know people with high rank on here dont work for zos, but some people value the opinion of those people on here. Either way i love this game, you guys make great content, you just need to be on top of things like this, and maintain that great content better, i mean at least on XB1 where i play because its a laggy nightmare right now, but thats another issue..

I just think if your having a double vma drop, or ap drop, or undaunted drop, or whatever drop/event, why not check the forums for words related to those things during that time frame? You will see if people are reporting or asking questions about things happening with the event, and then respond accordingly. Idk just some thoughts on the whole thing. I always try to give my input on things in the game when i see them because i want it to improve.

AbraXuSeXile · April 2017

prootch wrote: »

AbraXuSeXile wrote: »

Its good action was taken but when everyone was begging for an answer on if its allowed or not and totally ignored it. Then 1 month later its like oh yeah remember when you farrmed AP? It was bad take your ban lol.
At least communicate with people at the time its going on.

Now Abrax, they already had punished people abusing roe mine ressource ap bug, in the end it's nothing to be surprised about.

That was because bb mine was the wrong ap gained for capture. They had ample opportunity communicate with people.

Etaniel · April 2017

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

Turelus · April 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

Agreed so much, I am really mixed on my feelings for this.

I'm really happy action was taken, it's a great step in the right direction, however I feel bad for not being happy enough, most of your points hit on that and I am sure to just repeat them but I'll do one final breakdown for my own need to rant then I shall keep to just replying rather than preaching.

ZOS needs to have a clear list of what is and isn't acceptable gameplay in Cyrodiil. Players shouldn't have to dig through forums posts and debate to know what's legal. This is honestly a pinned thread I feel @ZOS_BrianWheeler should have in the Alliance War section.
ZOS needs to take a look at what systems are in place and how it failed so badly they had to ask EU players what was happening on their own games servers.
When something like this happens, say something. This is really their biggest failing on all of this. There was even an ESO Live with Rich and Brian who hinted at it, but didn't at any point say "knock it off, we're going to take action on abuser". That simple line would have halted many doing this, I should know I was talking with them for a week.
When abuse happens make sure you're removing what's gained fully (if possible) most people I spoke with did this for the SP/Ranks/Achievements not for the AP gains, so having 3 day suspensions and AP removal doesn't hit their reasons for it.
I think ZOS did well on only handing out suspensions considering they didn't announce this was against their ToS until yesterday. Hopefully having a strike on their accounts will make people question partaking in actions like this again.
I really hope ZOS goes forward with making a better show about issues like this. They need to make clear that an exploit will be punished as soon as it's identified by them, no information how it's done but as simple as "We've identified an issue with survey writs being farmed, this is an exploit and we will take action against those using it". This is how other games have handled such issues.

stevepdodson_ESO888 · April 2017

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi everyone,

We just completed a mass action on a few hundred accounts that were involved in regular coordinated cross-alliance AP farming. Specifically, swapping resources and keeps to farm high amounts of AP in a short period of time. Not only does this behavior harm our PvP gameplay and community, but it is also a Terms of Service violation. Accounts found taking part in cross-alliance AP farming may be subject to disciplinary actions.

Here’s the break-down of the accounts we took action on and where they were:
PC/Mac – Europe: 170 accounts

PlayStation 4 – Europe: 42 accounts

PlayStation 4 – North America: 39 accounts

Xbox One – Europe: 50 accounts

Xbox One – North America: 61 accounts

Those involved have received a three-day suspension at minimum and removal of all AP from their accounts. If you were involved, you have received an email with an official warning.

Thank you to everyone who reported this exploit. Please help us keep ESO’s PvP content fun, competitive, and fair for all.

don't forget to ban a lot of your favourite you-tubers as they were doing it too...oh and also take away their Alliance Rank and not just the AP

Zinaroth · April 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

Most sensible post in this thread along with the words of @Turelus, @itzTJ and @AbraXuSeXile, also love your videos @Etaniel!

So much hipocrisy going on in here, both from players and from ZOS; people condemning others when they participated themselves - no matter how grand a claim they have of trying to stop the farm, and ZOS saying nothing when the issue was raised on forums - only to later decide to take action. I know a certain developer actually came on the European server and went to Bleaker's in his spare time to note down names. This time could have been spend making a post on the subject on forums instead. It's a very childish behaviour and I know this person did it only because he was so "sick and tired of people abusing stuff" - same reason someone even got banned for the Rakkhat exploit at all. I am happy that the developers are passionate about the game, but they need to revise how they handle things and it needs to be less on a personal level.

Also while they claim that the suspensions were based on other metrics than just AP gained I think it was very inconsistent. I see players still online who were far worse than others who got suspended - Kodi dueled some of them on stream yesterday.

That being said I think the suspensions were fair; ZOS has taken a stance. I just think that stance should have been taken when this was ongoing so people had a chance to react accordingly. This was at best a grey area of the ToS and this is why we saw so many people participate in this and why people, including me, participated in discussions on the subject while it was ongoing. Also one could argue whether its fair that people who already spend the AP get almost no penalty while people who didn't spend it and maybe had AP saved up before event, or made a ton of AP after the event. get it all taken away. I know this is a game and not real life, but one could draw a parallel to a thief who steals; the goods will be taken away and he will be put in jail - he does not automatically forfeit everything he owned prior to his transgression. Once again I emphasize that this was a grey area of the ToS which is why so many people participated and ZOS is to blaim for not spending rescources on adressing the issue before and instead using players as scapegoats and pointing the arrows away from themselves. It's clever and effective because people fall for it (just like in real life politics), but a very, very, very bad approach.

Also I never throught I would see a community manager actually participate in an ongoing server versus server debate and stoke the fires - favorizing one server over the other.

Plus let's not forget that ZOS lied about facts prior to the event in an attempt to cool the situation down; as someone already pointed out by quoting both Wheelers post prior to the event and the post Jessica made yesterday.

TL;DR version:
Both white knight players and ZOS are being hypocrites, the suspensions was completely fair but ZOS should have taken a stance before since this was a grey area in the ToS, community managers should not participate in server versus server discussions and developers should not post false statistics in an attempt to quelch an ongoing issue or prioritize rescources during the event to note down names instead of just posting on foums that actions will be taken if the behaviour continues.

EDIT: This will be my only post on this thread and final post on this matter. Done is done. If people want to adress me or anything I said feel free to PM me.

ExcaliburESO · April 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

I agree 100% with @Etaniel zos knew it gonna happen and now they suspend acc cuz of their own ignorance? Its zos fault not ours. We do it in most efficient way always!

Etaniel · April 2017

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

I agree 100% with @Etaniel zos knew it gonna happen and now they suspend acc cuz of their own ignorance? Its zos fault not ours. We do it in most efficient way always!

I'm not saying that it was wrong to suspend / ban people though. I'm saying it shouldn't have come to this, but after letting this be rampant for so long, punishments were inevitable and expected.

ExcaliburESO · April 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

I agree 100% with @Etaniel zos knew it gonna happen and now they suspend acc cuz of their own ignorance? Its zos fault not ours. We do it in most efficient way always!

I'm not saying that it was wrong to suspend / ban people though. I'm saying it shouldn't have come to this, but after letting this be rampant for so long, punishments were inevitable and expected.

Im fine with my suspension but next time zos should prevent this to happen instead of letting it even making double ap for it and then oh soz u all exploiters get rekt noobs...

Zaldan · April 2017

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

A three-day suspension for outright TOS violation? And we want them back... why?

If this was their first offense, they got a three-day suspension and lose all their AP as a warning. If they do it again, it'll be a ban. Some who had previous TOS violations were permanently banned.

ZO$ Banned=/=Banned LOL

Turelus · April 2017

Zaldan wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

bulbousb16_ESO wrote: »

A three-day suspension for outright TOS violation? And we want them back... why?

If this was their first offense, they got a three-day suspension and lose all their AP as a warning. If they do it again, it'll be a ban. Some who had previous TOS violations were permanently banned.

ZO$ Banned=/=Banned LOL

I think they made a good call. Having had multiple threads, weeks and an ESO Live to explain this was against ToS they chose not to. Giving a full account ban now would be pretty unfair. I say that as the whiny guy who complained about it constantly.

ExcaliburESO · April 2017

ZO$ unbans if u promise to buy crown crates every month!!

Cinbri · April 2017

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

I agree 100% with @Etaniel zos knew it gonna happen and now they suspend acc cuz of their own ignorance? Its zos fault not ours. We do it in most efficient way always!

I'm not saying that it was wrong to suspend / ban people though. I'm saying it shouldn't have come to this, but after letting this be rampant for so long, punishments were inevitable and expected.

Im fine with my suspension but next time zos should prevent this to happen instead of letting it even making double ap for it and then oh soz u all exploiters get rekt noobs...

Stop those pathetic excuses. Everyone knew that teaming up with enemy to feed AP to each other is breaking TOS, but noone cares coz "ZOS won't punish anyway". Enjoy it now.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2017

Zinaroth wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

Most sensible post in this thread along with the words of @Turelus, @itzTJ and @AbraXuSeXile, also love your videos @Etaniel!

So much hipocrisy going on in here, both from players and from ZOS; people condemning others when they participated themselves - no matter how grand a claim they have of trying to stop the farm, and ZOS saying nothing when the issue was raised on forums - only to later decide to take action. I know a certain developer actually came on the European server and went to Bleaker's in his spare time to note down names. This time could have been spend making a post on the subject on forums instead. It's a very childish behaviour and I know this person did it only because he was so "sick and tired of people abusing stuff" - same reason someone even got banned for the Rakkhat exploit at all. I am happy that the developers are passionate about the game, but they need to revise how they handle things and it needs to be less on a personal level.

Also while they claim that the suspensions were based on other metrics than just AP gained I think it was very inconsistent. I see players still online who were far worse than others who got suspended - Kodi dueled some of them on stream yesterday.

That being said I think the suspensions were fair; ZOS has taken a stance. I just think that stance should have been taken when this was ongoing so people had a chance to react accordingly. This was at best a grey area of the ToS and this is why we saw so many people participate in this and why people, including me, participated in discussions on the subject while it was ongoing. Also one could argue whether its fair that people who already spend the AP get almost no penalty while people who didn't spend it and maybe had AP saved up before event, or made a ton of AP after the event. get it all taken away. I know this is a game and not real life, but one could draw a parallel to a thief who steals; the goods will be taken away and he will be put in jail - he does not automatically forfeit everything he owned prior to his transgression. Once again I emphasize that this was a grey area of the ToS which is why so many people participated and ZOS is to blaim for not spending rescources on adressing the issue before and instead using players as scapegoats and pointing the arrows away from themselves. It's clever and effective because people fall for it (just like in real life politics), but a very, very, very bad approach.

Also I never throught I would see a community manager actually participate in an ongoing server versus server debate and stoke the fires - favorizing one server over the other.

Plus let's not forget that ZOS lied about facts prior to the event in an attempt to cool the situation down; as someone already pointed out by quoting both Wheelers post prior to the event and the post Jessica made yesterday.

TL;DR version:
Both white knight players and ZOS are being hypocrites, the suspensions was completely fair but ZOS should have taken a stance before since this was a grey area in the ToS, community managers should not participate in server versus server discussions and developers should not post false statistics in an attempt to quelch an ongoing issue or prioritize rescources during the event to note down names instead of just posting on foums that actions will be taken if the behaviour continues.

EDIT: This will be my only post on this thread and final post on this matter. Done is done. If people want to adress me or anything I said feel free to PM me.

I usually strip quotes a lot but I quote this one (and its own quotes) entirely, because it is so true and on the spot.

Many people were discussing the abusive or non-abusive nature of outpost flipping that week. ZOS could and SHOULD have taken a side THEN. Something as simple as "hey guys, be careful, our position is that it is abusive behaviour". Instead, all we have from ZOS is "If it feels like cheating, it probably is".

I didn't get banned because all I did that week was get vigor or deto on a couple of alts. But I can assure you that it did NOT feel like cheating. It felt more like kidding around, really. And between the organized flipping and the numerous guys who came around just to bomb everyone, it felt like a lot of fun, and not like cheating.

You can tell people to not drive above 50mph, but you cannot tell people to simply not drive too fast without defining a clear speed limit.

Turelus · April 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

Stop those pathetic excuses. Everyone knew that teaming up with enemy to feed AP to each other is breaking TOS, but noone cares coz "ZOS won't punish anyway". Enjoy it now.

While I was and am against it. I have to say we really didn't know it was against ToS. It technically wasn't an exploit and no where has ZOS ever handed out bans for working with the enemy.
The most I ever saw/heard was a friend getting an email warning for saying "I am going to give the scroll to DC!" and running towards them as a joke whilst wasted and running the scroll.

This is why again I feel ZOS needs a code of conduct for Cyrodiil for exactly what is and is not against their ToS.
As I have posted so many times before something like this: https://support.eveonline.com/hc/en-us/articles/204873262-Known-Declared-Exploits
It's clear and simple and says what is and isn't exploits.

ZOS version.

Bypassing a keeps walls without sieging them is an exploit.
Large AP gains by trading with enemy factions is an exploit.
Running a scroll for a rival alliance with an alt is an exploit.
Using macros or rubberbands is an exploit.
Animation cancelling is not an exploit.

It's as simple as a pinned thread with that to stop a majority of people from doing it.

Lieblingsjunge · April 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

I agree 100% with @Etaniel zos knew it gonna happen and now they suspend acc cuz of their own ignorance? Its zos fault not ours. We do it in most efficient way always!

I'm not saying that it was wrong to suspend / ban people though. I'm saying it shouldn't have come to this, but after letting this be rampant for so long, punishments were inevitable and expected.

Im fine with my suspension but next time zos should prevent this to happen instead of letting it even making double ap for it and then oh soz u all exploiters get rekt noobs...

Stop those pathetic excuses. Everyone knew that teaming up with enemy to feed AP to each other is breaking TOS, but noone cares coz "ZOS won't punish anyway". Enjoy it now.

What Cinbri said is my view on this as well.
Yes, Zenimax did not say "Don't do it". They did not stop it, even though people raised the issue. Even if, logicially, people should've realised that this was not okay, and since on EU it kinda took insane proportions compared to NA, you can't explain that difference with "ZoS should've done something else" as the only reason since it's different from server to server. It's just player ethics & morale imo.

I'm not defending ZoS. I do not agree with their inconsistent ways of dealing with exploits, some get 0 consequenses while other exploits gets a ban.(e.g. people abusing Widowmaker, even with video proof that did not get banned). Zenimax is, by no means, innocent in this, their inconsistency and slow responses to the players when they raised the issue is unacceptable.

But don't put all the blame on Zenimax, just don't. Players should've realised that this is, like Cinbri said, is a violation of ToS and that this is of course not acceptable behaviour. Blaming Zenimax for everything is not gonna cut it. Yes, Zenimax have their flaws but if anyone dares to say that the players are innocent in this, you're just biased and desperately looking for an excuse to defend your friend/yourself.

The players that flipped Bleaker's Outpost like this, deserves the ban. Of course it sucks when your friends get banned, I know people who did it. But even though it sucks, it doesn't give anyone the right to put the entire blame on Zenimax.

tl;dr: Zenimax are inconsistent, slow in responding and they don't really seem to be interested in the Players' PoV before they realise.. they were right. Re-active vs. Pro-active attitude; Zenimax pls, be more pro-active next time c:?
Players are unethical and naive and I know it was said that, by some people who did exploit "Zenimax won't punish us anyway".

Accept your bans. Learn from your mistake. Maybe Zenimax will learn from theirs.

Valencer · April 2017

3 day suspensions and people acting like that's real punishment? Id take a 3 day suspension any time if it meant I just bypassed 100 days of PvP progression for a shiny new rank and the associated achievements, titles, dyes...

Not like theyre able to reset alliance ranks anyway. That much is obvious.

AllPlayAndNoWork · April 2017

Etaniel wrote: »

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

I agree 100% with @Etaniel zos knew it gonna happen and now they suspend acc cuz of their own ignorance? Its zos fault not ours. We do it in most efficient way always!

I'm not saying that it was wrong to suspend / ban people though. I'm saying it shouldn't have come to this, but after letting this be rampant for so long, punishments were inevitable and expected.

Agree 100% on this. If anything ZoS has let themselves down in allowing it to get this far. And the community down by not saying anything when it was happening.

Turelus · April 2017

AllPlayAndNoWork wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

ExcaliburESO wrote: »

Etaniel wrote: »

The hypocrisy in this thread is pretty funny.
Some of the people rejoicing here have happily exploited in the past, some are known gold sellers etc. The amount of people pointing fingers when they are far from clean is hilarious.

Zos handled this pretty poorly if you ask me.

1. Letting this go live, even with the crap ton of warning they got from a lot of players that keep/outpost flipping would happen.
2. Not monitoring the EU server and posting stats exposing their ignorance on what was going on on all platforms, ignoring the proof spam posted and spoon fed to them.
3. Not putting out info that this behaviour wasn't ok and that they were looking into taking action (there's no exploit if you ask me, it's morally questionnable ofc but unlike BB mine, the AP values here were 100% intended by ZOS)
4. Not resetting ranks, not taking into account the gold that was made with the laundered AP. If they had done something waaaaay earlier about this, money laundering etc wouldn't have been an issue.

The only positive outcome from this is that people will think twice about exploiting/cheating/whatever fishy thing.

I agree 100% with Etaniel zos knew it gonna happen and now they suspend acc cuz of their own ignorance? Its zos fault not ours. We do it in most efficient way always!

I'm not saying that it was wrong to suspend / ban people though. I'm saying it shouldn't have come to this, but after letting this be rampant for so long, punishments were inevitable and expected.

Agree 100% on this. If anything ZoS has let themselves down in allowing it to get this far. And the community down by not saying anything when it was happening.

We can only hope they learnt from this and take steps towards better communication next time as well as better tools to monitor the EU servers.

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

Stop .. Just stop . Don't blame the players that are happy to see ZoS finally making a move in the right direction to stop exploiting . I have never participated in any exploits and neither has a lot of people . Grow up . If you honestly thought giving keeps or outposts to one another was intended game play you are a special kind of ignorant . It's a PVP ZONE .

ZoS has made several posts that even if somethings feel like cheating , don't do it . If you are unsure , don't do it . These gamers are not 7 year old kids that need parental guidance to follow the rules of the game and be told "you kids be good" every day . Take some responsibility for your actions and don't pass the blame . No one likes a fink after they get busted .

Who cares if it's only 3 days . Who cares if they don't strip the account fully down . That is ZOSs decision to make , not players . The good news is at least the rules are being enforced and exploiting gains is being dealt with . But don't point the finger at the community for their happiness the rules mean something . You mess around , you get caught and that's all on you and no one else .

Wrubius_Coronaria · April 2017

Exploit => consequences. The rest is detail.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Stop .. Just stop . Don't blame the players that are happy to see ZoS finally making a move in the right direction to stop exploiting . I have never participated in any exploits and neither has a lot of people . Grow up . If you honestly thought giving keeps or outposts to one another was intended game play you are a special kind of ignorant . It's a PVP ZONE .
ZoS has made several posts that even if somethings feel like cheating , don't do it . If you are unsure , don't do it .

If we follow your reasoning, cross-alliance organization of DUELS and DUELLING TOURNAMENTS prior to the One Tamriel update was exploiting, too.
As to the "if you're unsure, don't do it", sorry but this is a game. By default, everything the game lets me do, alone or in arrangement with other players, is OK. I should not be compromising my gaming freedom by having to wonder all the time whether what I'm doing is "OK" or "not OK", just because it's not in the original game design. People are organizing cross-country jumping contests in their homes with pieces of FURNITURE which wasn't designed but can be used for that purpose. All kinds of creative things can be done in this game and this creativity shouldn't be killed by the fear of breaking some untold rule. Massive AP gains are only relevant to those who care about ranks, titles or selling AP-wares and motifs. I'm not concerned by any of these and I couldn't care less if other players gain massive AP, no matter which way. Organized outpost flipping (along with the bombers who tried to get in the way) was an awful lot of FUN.

If ZOS decides that any behaviour for whatever reason is an "exploit", they should say it clearly. It's not hard.

Rohamad_Ali · April 2017

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Stop .. Just stop . Don't blame the players that are happy to see ZoS finally making a move in the right direction to stop exploiting . I have never participated in any exploits and neither has a lot of people . Grow up . If you honestly thought giving keeps or outposts to one another was intended game play you are a special kind of ignorant . It's a PVP ZONE .
ZoS has made several posts that even if somethings feel like cheating , don't do it . If you are unsure , don't do it .

If we follow your reasoning, cross-alliance organization of DUELS and DUELLING TOURNAMENTS prior to the One Tamriel update was exploiting, too.
As to the "if you're unsure, don't do it", sorry but this is a game. By default, everything the game lets me do, alone or in arrangement with other players, is OK. I should not be compromising my gaming freedom by having to wonder all the time whether what I'm doing is "OK" or "not OK", just because it's not in the original game design. People are organizing cross-country jumping contests in their home with pieces of FURNITURE which wasn't designed but can be used for that purpose.

If ZOS decides that any behaviour for whatever reason is an "exploit", they should say it clearly. It's not hard.

Bah ! Get with the program and save the lawyer talk for a courtroom where it makes money .

White wabbit · April 2017

So are Zos going to answer if a nightblade using gap closer into a keep is an exploit as I'm fed up of travelling to a keep-and getting killed by hidden Nightblades

Turelus · April 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

ZoS has made several posts that even if somethings feel like cheating , don't do it . If you are unsure , don't do it . These gamers are not 7 year old kids that need parental guidance to follow the rules of the game and be told "you kids be good" every day . Take some responsibility for your actions and don't pass the blame . No one likes a fink after they get busted

The problem with the feels like cheating don't is ZOS set precedents for this before, for example Emperor trading, nothing happened and no one ever got in trouble.
This was collaboration of faction to trade keeps and boost players.

Also this was a game mechanic which was working perfectly as designed, and while yes players shouldn't have abused it there was nothing to say it was against ToS. It's not the same as banking a survey and getting to use it over and over where it was quite obviously an unintended bug.

I was reporting this as it was happening, I submitted all my information to ZOS, I had Brian Wheeler ask me where it was happening (check my forums profile wall) as apparently ZOS had no idea.
They had Richard and Brian on ESO Live, I asked in the ESO Live thread and in chat that night if they would address it and the most we got was Brian saying something about noticing some type of behaviour. It was only after that ESO Live Gina messaged me and asked for information, at which point I handed over everything which I already had been posting.

I was sat in the PC EU guild which organised this. I chatted with the key people who started it all and every one of them said the same thing "If ZOS says it's an exploit we'll stop, but we warned them this would happen and they ignored our warnings".

I am by no means defending that this was right and players shouldn't be banned, I think ZOS did a good job with suspensions and AP removal (though would rather the titles/SP go away as well). However although ZOS finally did good and I am very happy something was done, this wasn't made clear at any point to be against their ToS.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2017

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Bah ! Get with the program and save the lawyer talk for a courtroom where it makes money .

Lawyer talk would be MUCH SHORTER : you cannot infringe a law that doesn't exist. Period. Cannot make money off of non-existent cases

Turelus · April 2017

White wabbit wrote: »

So are Zos going to answer if a nightblade using gap closer into a keep is an exploit as I'm fed up of travelling to a keep-and getting killed by hidden Nightblades

The problem they face with that one is the evidence that's how the Nightblade got there and not just staying inside after walls go up.

Rickter · April 2017

I agree with a lot of the points @Turelus has made on this last page. ZOS only needed to make a simple post or even better: an IN GAME SYSTEM NOTIFICATION UPON LOG IN explicitly stating that should keep flipping occur, disciplinary action would be taken against your account.

I also think its complete B.S. NA wasnt touched simply because they (werent amoung the top offenders) like what kind of crap is that? if they exploited, you should punish them. period. why let ANYone slide?

What ZOS just told everyone is that if there is a MAJOR exploit that will boost your economic or PvP stature, you may exploit it to your heart's content just one time so pick your ToS violation carefully and reap the benefits!

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2017

White wabbit wrote: »

So are Zos going to answer if a nightblade using gap closer into a keep is an exploit as I'm fed up of travelling to a keep-and getting killed by hidden Nightblades

They made a clear statement on this one. Any form of entering an enemy keep without having destroyed a wall first is an exploit.