Vigor, Caltrops, & War Horn

Everstorm · March 2017

Before ESO the TES series was a single player series. For a lot of fans the MMO change was already a big step, adding PvP on top of that is a bridge too far.
But as usual the pvp adepts are unable or unwilling to look at it from a perspective other than their own. Not realising it's that very attitude that makes PvE players not even want to try it out. You're create a very unwelcoming atmosphere.

Magdalina · March 2017

DreamClown wrote: »

Could someone explain the logic behind making these skills obtainable ONLY from PVP? I'm seriously dreading the AP grind (yet again) for one of my PVE characters.

Tbh the reasoning was probably none of these conspiracy theories but simply ZOS making those skills with PvP in mind. I guess they didn't see people make Warhorn obligatory for trials nor caltrops being used to pull PvE mobs. Vigor now...I'm not sure, first they placed it at like AR 10 so I honestly have no idea what their reasoning was there. Maybe it was in response to people saying how high AR is useless so they wanted to give people up there something good.

Either way with all the changes that happened since then it really only takes like a few hours to get. We also just recently had double ap week during which you'd be gaining like 20k ap from just flipping a keep(12k base plus some for enemy players). It really doesn't take much to get these skills. Why is it such an issue that in order to get certain skills you have to play a certain part of the game? If you want to use Annulment, you have to play in light armor in order to unlock it. If you want to use Mage's guild skills, you have to find lorebooks. If you want Fighter's guild skills, you have to kill daedra. If you want Undaunted you have to run dungeons. If you want even your own class skills you'll have to use the skills from a certain tree (even if you have no interest in them) in order to unlock new ones. If you find some of PvP skills useful(which yes they are/can be), you have to PvP, how's that different from any other part of the game?

rotaugen454 · March 2017

I mostly PvE, and I got the PvP skills easily. Much, MUCH less of a grind than pure PvP players have to go through in PvE grind. I think they get forced to do the "other" a lot more.

Biro123 · March 2017

Everstorm wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

AP is so easy to get, there's really no reason to complain about this anymore. Spend a couple hours in a group and you're good. The real enemy we should be banding together against here is getting Mages Guild 10.

Gathering books doesn't subject you to toxic smacktalk. It's not about how long it takes but a lot of ppl would rather face the dentist then that environment.

I agree. I hate the undaunted grind too.

br0steen · March 2017

When I made my tank I threw a resto staff on, skill line was at level 2, and went into the most populated campaign. One keep defense and I had healing springs. Few hours later I had warhorn and resto staff was still under 20. Calling it a grind is nonsense.

feyii · March 2017

BadLuckCharm wrote: »

That's where you get them?? Ah. Oh. I see.
Well then. Huh.

I'm guessing the Templar speed boost comes from that too? (or at least it seems to be just templars that do that...) Guess i'll have to look up what else comes from PvP only.

Yeah, the speed boost is also from PVP. It just looks like a templar skill, because its visuals are yellow, like the templar's

But to get that skill you don't have to do any more than complete the PVP tutorial, which also gives you two skill points for getting the first two PVP ranks.

Micah_Bayer · March 2017

@GreenhaloX You realise pvp players have to go back into undaunted and mages guild every new toon? Right? Because if we have to do something as dreadful as that, you must be so entitled.

Micah_Bayer · March 2017

@rotaugen454 You sir, are a hero.

MakeMeUhSamich · March 2017

Hmmm, seems like the consensus is to make sure players experience PVP. I guess that's cool and won't be changing anytime soon, but my experiences there have definitely sucked. ZERG fights on the bridge just ain't my thing. Trying other activities usually results in riding really long distances just to get ganked or zerged before actually earning any decent AP. Good times.

Biro123 · March 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Considering that I could sneeze and make 100k AP, but I just reached level 7 Undaunted on my main character last week after almost 2 years ... well ... I disagree.

Well, that is amazing. Did you stay in base for 2 years?

I suspect he was..PVPing? I only just unlocked undaunted mettle on my main after over a year. - I thought it was to worst, most grindy, dull and drawn-out grind ever... and jeez, the combination of elitism and ineptness you run into doing random dungeons is unreal. Nah, i'd much rather grind mages guild again than undaunted. In fact I KNOW I'm never gonna grind undaunted again.

Basically I agree with the OP.. Skills that are desirable for PVE should not be obtainable only by PVP (or at least if they are, it should be very easy to get (and I mean VERY) - But the same goes for stuff desirable for PVP. It should not be locked behind a massive PVE dungeon grind. Or at the bare minimum - make both these things account-wide so you only ever need to grind each of them once.

DurzoBlint13 · March 2017

it is ridiculously easy to get Alliance Skills now, and still we have complaints? Really? Just jump in there for a bit and try it. You will have the skills you want before you even figure out what you are doing. Lol You get Vigor unlocked just before you even get top tier campaign rewards now.
The fact that this thread comes out AFTER a double AP event is even more mind boggling AND after several nerfs to the amount of AP you need for those skills in the first place.....AND buffs to the amount of AP you earn. Just stop with the "I don't want to PvP" crap and play the game. The grind for Undaunted passives is MUCH longer than the time it takes to get Vigor/Warhorn/Proxi-det

Biro123 · March 2017

DreamClown wrote: »

Hmmm, seems like the consensus is to make sure players experience PVP. I guess that's cool and won't be changing anytime soon, but my experiences there have definitely sucked. ZERG fights on the bridge just ain't my thing. Trying other activities usually results in riding really long distances just to get ganked or zerged before actually earning any decent AP. Good times.

Unfortunately PVP is hard for anyone new to it. Until you have enough experience in PVP to be able to see the direction of the campaign from the map - figure out where the main forces are, where the gankers are likely to be and where the combat is likely to move to (which takes 10 mins or so for an experienced PVPer to see after logging in) - and until you learn when to run/how to escape and how to defend yourself reasonably well - then yes, dying a lot and riding a lot as a result is gonna be on the cards.. unless you do find a group to join a stick like glue to the crown.. Then you should have some level of protection or at least people around to rezz you :-)

DRXHarbinger · March 2017

DreamClown wrote: »

Hmmm, seems like the consensus is to make sure players experience PVP. I guess that's cool and won't be changing anytime soon, but my experiences there have definitely sucked. ZERG fights on the bridge just ain't my thing. Trying other activities usually results in riding really long distances just to get ganked or zerged before actually earning any decent AP. Good times.

That's all you need to do. Lit staff and type into zone chat "zerg me up" take invite...follow flock...find enemy zerg and chuck aoe and hold lit staff heavies. If stamina just spam bow attacks like injection at the weaker people and kill them. Seige the keep and wait for the huge ap tick at the end. If nightblade it's so easy. Cloak up behind someone and dizzying swing someone into a dawnbreaker / executioner combo and bang dead. Pvp really isn't hard at all. Run mage light and you won't get ganked as easily.

GreenhaloX · March 2017

Micah_Bayer wrote: »

@GreenhaloX You realise pvp players have to go back into undaunted and mages guild every new toon? Right? Because if we have to do something as dreadful as that, you must be so entitled.

@Micah_Bayer, what the hell are you talking about?! Also, "must be so entitled" to what?! If you're doing undaunted or leveling up the Mage guild or doing anything else in PvE contents, you're not "pvp players have to go back" into anything. You're just a player doing stuff in PvE. Every time you create a new toon, you are in PvE land and have to level up to 10 with PvE contents before you can venture into Cyrodiil. Likewise, when I go into PvP to level up for Vigor and Caltrops, I'm not a PvE player. I'm just a player (or gamer) doing stuff in PvP/Cyrodiil. There is no damn category or separation of player types in ESO. Also, there is a big difference between PvE contents (like dungeons/pledges or leveling up Fighter or Mage Skills) and doing PvP in Cyrodiil.

I'm not slamming PvP content or those liking it. Some players, like me, just don't like to PvP or the cheats and exploits occurring in PvP. Yes, there are players that spend most or all of their game time in PvP and also do not like PvE contents. Fine, I'm not slamming them.. and if they are forcing themselves to come do the PvE contents (such as undaunted or the Mage Guild skill leveling), fine. I'm won't call them entitled, because I wouldn't know what the hell they would be entitled to. Sure, I would be for having the options of leveling up undaunted or other skill set in PvP land as well, for those that do not like to venture out of Cyrodiil. Likewise, the same option of being able to obtain vigor and caltrops somewhere in PvE contents away from Cyrodiil.

Browiseth · March 2017

they're pvp skills designed and intended for use in pvp

THEDKEXPERIENCE · March 2017

Enslaved wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Considering that I could sneeze and make 100k AP, but I just reached level 7 Undaunted on my main character last week after almost 2 years ... well ... I disagree.

Well, that is amazing. Did you stay in base for 2 years?

Haha. Nah. I actually split my time about equally between PVP and resource farming. That leaves very little time to get in PVE group. I only get maybe 10 hours a week to play so, it is what it is. Luckily I discovered the daily delve quest giver a few months back so I was able to rank up a bit. Figuring I'll be Undaunted 9 around July now.

SickDuck · March 2017

hmsdragonfly wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

Questioning a stupid design is not the same as feeling entitled to get for free. Forced pvp-pve marriage still causing troubles in both sides, while ZOS is still experimenting with core mechanics after 3 years in order to balance both at the same time. A task that imho was doomed from start.

Vigor shouldn't be in pvp at all, it is an absolute basic skill all around for stamina. If there were no other place to put it should have been the first skill in the line. Very lazy design: stamina needed one heal and it was the least effort to add in pvp.

Caltrops should be a pure utility skill with a tiny dot maybe. Generally pvp skill should add strategic advantage in pvp. There are plenty class and weapon skills for damage dealing.

War Horn should work only in pvp. ZOS is complaining about high damage ceiling and goes into a nerf war while providing this massive booster. It is unnecessary in pve but cannot be ignored in its current form. This slot could have been a pvp exclusive ultimate replacing the need for Meteor.

There are only 10 pvp specific skills yet 3(-4-5-6?) of them are widely used in pve. That's a great loss since pve has plenty of skill anyway. Constantly lowering the requirements to get these is just another lazy solution supporting this bad design.

I, like many other players, play both PvP and PvE. In my opinion, it will be very frustrating for these people if PvE and PvP are balanced separately. They will want the consistency, it's the same freaking game. It's ok if there are only a few changes and they are are minor like less healing in PvP or negate doesn't stun in PvP, but it will be frustrating if every freaking thing plays out differently. "I like this ability, I will use it in PvP. Wait a minute, it is banned from PvP and there's some useless junk taking its place, what?".

The real question is, how many players who play both, and how many players who just play one thing and despise the other? We are not talking about the vocal minority here, we are talking about all people who play the game.

I understand that desire but it's already broken in the current state. Unless you're super casual pvp and pve requires totally different gameplay. Different gear, skills and playstyle. Put battle levelling on the top of that with the bonus odd skills that mention different behaviour when used against players. Basically all damage and healing skills will produce different numbers when used in pvp. The separation is there already only ZOS tries to control the balance through a single global variable - the battle level buffs. Mind that the same changes your own stats as well (hp) with the added flavour of capture bonuses making it pretty impossible to do a fair balance that works in two totally different scenarios.

Well-thought pvp skill lines could be a great toolset to help pvp balance while not affecting the common skills. But that would require meaningful skills and passive worth grinding for the sake of pvp. Putting skills like Vigor there is basically robbing pvpers from a good skill. It also degrades the value of pvp ranks since you don't need a high rank to get powerful pvp skills. Instead you get a mandatory global skill for stamina. Instead of achieving something all skills can be gained in little time. This is not good for either player base.

RABIDxWOLVERINE · March 2017

It sucks but get over it, everyone else has. Just go to cyrodiil find a large group and then even if you suck at PVP you can 1. learn from the group 2. still collect AP.

I got Vigor and Caltrops and haven't been back.

amasuriel · March 2017

I also don't enjoy PvP, but I kinda agree it's not much of an issue now. It doesn't take very long with the recent changes in keep and resource AP gains. The double AP week I got 4 chars to alliance rank 5 in ~10 hours. Just in a zerg.

Nothing compares to the undaunted skill line grind. Mages guild and fighters guild are not great, but I literally dread getting undaunted to level 9 on new chars, unless you luck out and have guildmates doing a tour of vet dungeons for new chars, you have to do pledges, a lot of pledges. It sucks. Somehow I hate it more than running nMoL or CoA I for the 73rd time for gear.

Sordidfairytale · March 2017

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Caltrops have a morph that has zero used outside of PvP.

While I agree with everything else you say, I use cavalry on my Tank due to its longer duration and it doesn't interfere with the DPS using razor caltrops.

Strider_Roshin · March 2017

Maelstrom weapons, master weapons, fighters/mages guild, and undaunted passives. Forgive me if I don't give a crap if you have to PvP a little for your abilities.

Entegre · March 2017

MMOs are meant to be played with and against other players. As a PvP player I have to grind for:
Gold
Undaunted
Mage's guild
Skill points
Crafting...
And all are done exclusively on singleplayer-pve environment... It's A game and it is already too easy to play.

bowmanz607 · March 2017

same logic behind putting undaunted, fighters, mage behind pve.

Luigi_Vampa · March 2017

I wish these skills had been PvP locked in the first place so we could avoid the constant whining.

Jamini · March 2017

Everstorm wrote: »

Before ESO the TES series was a single player series. For a lot of fans the MMO change was already a big step, adding PvP on top of that is a bridge too far.
But as usual the pvp adepts are unable or unwilling to look at it from a perspective other than their own. Not realising it's that very attitude that makes PvE players not even want to try it out. You're create a very unwelcoming atmosphere.

Er, no offense, but most of the time when I see someone bashing PvP they are of recruit rank, with no time at all in cyrodiil, and probably don't even have rapids unlocked. I've known a few people that refuse to even step into cyrodiil (literally just enter, do one quest, and leave the zone) to get rapid maneuvers.

More than half the people who I've actually convinced to try PvP found they didn't hate it nearly as much as they thought they would. A few even really enjoyed it! One person I know, after trying PvP for the first time, ended up on that month's leaderboard after their first try.

It does not matter how welcoming a group is to newcomers if potential newcomers literally refuse to even step into the zone. Cyrodiil is one of the most forgiving zones in the game. Your health is buffed, damage you take is reduced, and battle scaling makes anyone pre-160 extremely strong. In PvP Deaths cost literally nothing, siege is cheap, plentiful, and vital for a group. The only excuse that is really acceptable (to me) for not being willing to enter Cyrodiil at least once (to get rapid manuvers) is if your computer cannot handle the graphics lag associated with PvP.

grannas211 · March 2017

PVE heroes are always so dramatic.

Katahdin · March 2017

Everstorm wrote: »

AsheronRealaidain wrote: »

AP is so easy to get, there's really no reason to complain about this anymore. Spend a couple hours in a group and you're good. The real enemy we should be banding together against here is getting Mages Guild 10.

Gathering books doesn't subject you to toxic smacktalk. It's not about how long it takes but a lot of ppl would rather face the dentist then that environment.

Toxic chat happens in every zone, not just Cyrodiil. In fact I've seen more toxic chat in the starter zones than I've ever seen in PvP.

Number_51 · March 2017

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on any of this but I think you can level Undaunted to 10 in about 3 days, maybe 4 , and not have to group or do daily pledges. The Daily Delve quest from Bolgrul is worth 30 guild points. You can only pick up 1 quest per day on each character, but they can be shared. There are 15 Daily Delve quests, for 450 guild points per day. This is where I may be incorrect... I've never personally done more then 6 per day, so it's possible you aren't allowed to do all 15. If you can do all 15, the 450 points per day, plus the "Buy me a drink" achievement and some points from the damage, blocker and healer achievements, should put you well on the way to the 1500 points you need for rank 10.

As I said I've never done more then 6 in a day but I ranked up enough to grab Inner Fire (rank 3 I think, 150 points) on a new character in a couple hours.

ETA: And again I'm off-topic. It really takes almost no time to level up Assault and Support skills these days. Even if you're terrible at PVP (like me), or don't like it at all (like I used to), I don't really see a need for change or for it to be made even easier. I'm glad I was forced to try it to get these skills, and even though I still didn't like it after my first few characters, I've come to a point where I actually have 2 dedicated PVP characters out of my 20.

idk · March 2017

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

90k ap for vigor. Please leave it out bro.

You know for vigor it used to be something like 500k AP right? Proxy was like 900k back in the day.

People got it so easy now.

And lol at "grind" do you even grind bruh? You get a minimum of 6.5k for capping one keep and 1500 for one farm or mine...compared to just 25 per resource a few months ago, heck I got a 20k tick fighting over a mine at Alessia last night.

Seriously get out of the age of entitlement and face my wrecking blow spam.

@DRXHarbinger brings things into perspective. Really not much of a grind anymore.

Besides, OP forgot guard.

BTW, Zos made a conscious choice to add the skills to the AvA line.

zaria · March 2017

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

90k ap for vigor. Please leave it out bro.

You know for vigor it used to be something like 500k AP right? Proxy was like 900k back in the day.

People got it so easy now.

And lol at "grind" do you even grind bruh? You get a minimum of 6.5k for capping one keep and 1500 for one farm or mine...compared to just 25 per resource a few months ago, heck I got a 20k tick fighting over a mine at Alessia last night.

Seriously get out of the age of entitlement and face my wrecking blow spam.

@DRXHarbinger brings things into perspective. Really not much of a grind anymore.

Besides, OP forgot guard.

BTW, Zos made a conscious choice to add the skills to the AvA line.

This, ready an character you need to do PvP, questing, exploring and dungeons.
I don't see the issue, PvP players has more reason to be annoyed.