@FearlessOne_2014 Challenge accepted.

Stamina DDs raids aren't even in the same ballpark anymore compared to magicka ones, 3 reasons:
- Radius ./ range
- Burst damage
- Survivability

Stamina's focus is to make tank builds whose focus is to control the fight and provide extremely high utility (rapids / caltrops / negates / CCs), never damage dealing. It's not that stamina DDs don't have any AoE damage, but their damage is necessarily at melee range (or near melee) range to be efficient, and remains in a much smaller area.

Just watch what Zerg Squad is in this video, and tell me how many steelnado spammers you'd need to get the same result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIOumyyhHhs

if you want to be a stamina DD, you need to get in your opponent's face with Dawnbreaker, it's one instant ability over a medium-sized area, the destro ult has a 10m radius and moves with you, which makes it a vastly superior choice against organised groups who would otherwise spread out. Steelnado is quite close to it with 9 meters, but it has its own issues. "Moving out" of destro ults is the logical counter in theory, but practice is made of Lotus fan, tank builds gap closing you, and a whole zerg rushing you with rapids and 4 destro ults up, instakilling anyone in range (even thru walls >.>).

A competitive PvP raid is one made of destro ults, mobility (either by be maneuverable or slowing down your opponents), negates and high coordination.
.
When it comes to burst damage, as a stamina DD, you'll quickly realize that you don't really have that many options, and your best pick is (indeed) going to be a stamina sorc, since they get that little bit of extra AoE from Hurricane, as well as suiting passives, but besides this, you're stuck in the DBoS / Take flight into steelnado spam, so past the initial ultimate, your burst damage is taking a severe hit. It's still possible to time a burst with proxy det against large groups as a magicka DD if your ultimate is down, not so much on stamina.

And we'll come to the last part: survivability. Destro ult is the word, since it remains active while you deal damage. You cannot keep yourself alive while spamming steel tornado, but you can pop a destro ult and still shield up / spam Sap and do something else if necessary. Not only this, but block and dodge roll are inefficient in this context as well, since the most effective defense against destro ult is range (hence why mobility is so critical).

There's a reason why some call stamina players in raids "rapids / caltrops slaves".

(EDIT: Reading my post, it sounds like a "nerf destro ult!" post)

EDIT 2: Adding relevant video in da spoiler az well:

thankyourat wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

@FearlessOne_2014 Challenge accepted.

Stamina DDs raids aren't even in the same ballpark anymore compared to magicka ones, 3 reasons:
- Radius ./ range
- Burst damage
- Survivability

Stamina's focus is to make tank builds whose focus is to control the fight and provide extremely high utility (rapids / caltrops / negates / CCs), never damage dealing. It's not that stamina DDs don't have any AoE damage, but their damage is necessarily at melee range (or near melee) range to be efficient, and remains in a much smaller area.

Just watch what Zerg Squad is in this video, and tell me how many steelnado spammers you'd need to get the same result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIOumyyhHhs

if you want to be a stamina DD, you need to get in your opponent's face with Dawnbreaker, it's one instant ability over a medium-sized area, the destro ult has a 10m radius and moves with you, which makes it a vastly superior choice against organised groups who would otherwise spread out. Steelnado is quite close to it with 9 meters, but it has its own issues. "Moving out" of destro ults is the logical counter in theory, but practice is made of Lotus fan, tank builds gap closing you, and a whole zerg rushing you with rapids and 4 destro ults up, instakilling anyone in range (even thru walls >.>).

A competitive PvP raid is one made of destro ults, mobility (either by be maneuverable or slowing down your opponents), negates and high coordination.
.
When it comes to burst damage, as a stamina DD, you'll quickly realize that you don't really have that many options, and your best pick is (indeed) going to be a stamina sorc, since they get that little bit of extra AoE from Hurricane, as well as suiting passives, but besides this, you're stuck in the DBoS / Take flight into steelnado spam, so past the initial ultimate, your burst damage is taking a severe hit. It's still possible to time a burst with proxy det against large groups as a magicka DD if your ultimate is down, not so much on stamina.

And we'll come to the last part: survivability. Destro ult is the word, since it remains active while you deal damage. You cannot keep yourself alive while spamming steel tornado, but you can pop a destro ult and still shield up / spam Sap and do something else if necessary. Not only this, but block and dodge roll are inefficient in this context as well, since the most effective defense against destro ult is range (hence why mobility is so critical).

There's a reason why some call stamina players in raids "rapids / caltrops slaves".

(EDIT: Reading my post, it sounds like a "nerf destro ult!" post)

I pretty much agree with all these points, but I would like to bring up that these rolls are completely flipped for solo small group play (1 to 3 people) stamina is has a decent advantage in this type of playstyle because stamina defensive abilities scale better with the more people you are fighting. where magicka is the opposite. Magicka also has a few other weakness in this style of play one is the lack of initial burst or in the case of mag dk no burst at all. So magicka builds have to work up to a burst. Where stamina builds can burst right away because their spammable dps is alot higher.

More on point to the original post. I don't see what the harm would be in giving stamina builds a stamina vicious death. To give them somewhat of a place in large scale PvP. The only problem I would see with it is that stamina doesn't really have the tools to take advantage of it fully. What made vicious death strong in the past was proxy det and what makes it strong now is the destro ultimate. Stamina build don't have a ball group busting ability like that. And if you give them an ability like that you would have to give magicka builds mobility to balance it, but I would be for both of those changes.

Well, the title of the thread being "Stamina large scale power and ability", 1-3 players isn't quite "large scale" And yes, for small skirmishes against 6-8 players, stamina has its own card to play. I honestly don't want to see a stamina VD, because that would be a band-aid fix, and I'm getting a little tired of solving problems with sets.

The Destro ult is by its mechanics extremely complicated to actually counter when used properly, but that's a beast on its own to rebalance >.>

When it comes to magicka mobility, there's actually a tool with 2 major weaknesses: Mist Form. First weakness being having to be a vampire (thus fire damage and FG abilities vulnerability), second being gap closer snares (which is pretty noticeable in some vids Etaniel posted recently for those who are interested), while Streak and dodge rolls aren't limited to the same extent, since they have a fixed distance. No, this is not a "nerf Streak & roll" post, this is a "fix gap closer snares" one

Kinda wonder what @Sanct16 or other Zerg Squad scrubz wud have to say on the matter.

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

@FearlessOne_2014 Man,do you even pvp? lol
Seriously,you need to l2p. With the current state of the game it's almost impossible to have problem with stamina as a magicka character,unless you think you can block for hours or you mitigate damage with rolldodging with 9k stam.

This thread is about giving stamina some tools to be useful in group pvp,so please stop suggesting using bloodthirst or bloodcraze or people might start to think you're trolling.

Stop suggesting that stamina needs to be the best in group play, or people might thing you are trolling. Yall said Stamina had no heals like magicka. I pointed up stamina heals and AOE abilities, and because of that I'm trolling? Lol

But for real guys stop beating around the bush and say what really on yall minds. You want easy mode stamina again after just having it. Yall also want magicka characters to be easy kills. So far the only ones trolling you stamina guys. Since I've posted yall offered nothing but personal attack after personal attack. Personally I could care lest if yall want to throw personal attack and snide remarks at me. All it just shows is your own insecurities about the ideas you guys posted.

Anyways have fun. I'm may show up again later on this thread when the adults want to discuss, and not demand easy mode PvP, and throw insults, but highly doubt it.

No you do not get to make this assumptions since it is far from fact, no one said we wanted op characters, wow stop being biased I highly doubt you do not know anything about stamina classes, they have been tested and are clearly having issues, we mostly need some utility in pve or something to offer since dps is behind in pve for stamina, as far as pvp goes magicka just got really good buffs and stamina needs a little help. Most of us do not want easy mode, we want fair play.

@Xvorg @AzuraKin I'll say again this is about "largescale" , that means double digit ppl , vd is not "hard" to proc in large-scale. Also please stop comparing things like red mountain to vd, red mountain does not outclass vd, it doesn't even outclass viper. If you cant see why vd out classes red mountain in a 12on12 fight idk what to tell you

@Sandman929 I dnt think op wants stam vd exclusively, it's just a step in the desired direction. Personally I'd like a stam morph of proxy that still gains it's damage from increased number of enemies but functions a little differently.

@Asmael someone who understands lol

ostrapz wrote: »

@Xvorg @AzuraKin I'll say again this is about "largescale" , that means double digit ppl , vd is not "hard" to proc in large-scale. Also please stop comparing things like red mountain to vd, red mountain does not outclass vd, it doesn't even outclass viper. If you cant see why vd out classes red mountain in a 12on12 fight idk what to tell you

@ostrapz , have you ever tried VD? Is just a zerg tool for zergs spamming zerg skills. It will never be an anti zerg set because zergs run with healers at both sides spamming heals and even if you do kill one zerg, the rest does not die because of the healers.

It can be useful in a bomblade, but again who woul like to go and kill 10 guys to be killed by the other 30 while another 10 are reviving those 10 guys killed?

Just try the set on a magicka toon to see how "good2 it is... it is just a bad set. Another "great" idea of ZoS to spread zerg balls that ended being used by the same zerg balls (together with EotS)

ostrapz wrote: »

@Xvorg http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Panda OT/video/27027307

To you and anyone else please tell me how anything like this is remotely possible on stam, or without vd. A solo 24k bomb non-emp

And yes Destro ulti is strong but ppl did this with tether a few patches ago when vd was released

Do you really think that clonning sets is going to solve balance problems?

Besides, console players are (without some exceptions) potatoes. No tracks on DPS makes you believe the set is good, when in reality is just situational

Asmael wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Asmael wrote: »

@FearlessOne_2014 Challenge accepted.

Stamina DDs raids aren't even in the same ballpark anymore compared to magicka ones, 3 reasons:
- Radius ./ range
- Burst damage
- Survivability

Stamina's focus is to make tank builds whose focus is to control the fight and provide extremely high utility (rapids / caltrops / negates / CCs), never damage dealing. It's not that stamina DDs don't have any AoE damage, but their damage is necessarily at melee range (or near melee) range to be efficient, and remains in a much smaller area.

Just watch what Zerg Squad is in this video, and tell me how many steelnado spammers you'd need to get the same result:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIOumyyhHhs

if you want to be a stamina DD, you need to get in your opponent's face with Dawnbreaker, it's one instant ability over a medium-sized area, the destro ult has a 10m radius and moves with you, which makes it a vastly superior choice against organised groups who would otherwise spread out. Steelnado is quite close to it with 9 meters, but it has its own issues. "Moving out" of destro ults is the logical counter in theory, but practice is made of Lotus fan, tank builds gap closing you, and a whole zerg rushing you with rapids and 4 destro ults up, instakilling anyone in range (even thru walls >.>).

A competitive PvP raid is one made of destro ults, mobility (either by be maneuverable or slowing down your opponents), negates and high coordination.
.
When it comes to burst damage, as a stamina DD, you'll quickly realize that you don't really have that many options, and your best pick is (indeed) going to be a stamina sorc, since they get that little bit of extra AoE from Hurricane, as well as suiting passives, but besides this, you're stuck in the DBoS / Take flight into steelnado spam, so past the initial ultimate, your burst damage is taking a severe hit. It's still possible to time a burst with proxy det against large groups as a magicka DD if your ultimate is down, not so much on stamina.

And we'll come to the last part: survivability. Destro ult is the word, since it remains active while you deal damage. You cannot keep yourself alive while spamming steel tornado, but you can pop a destro ult and still shield up / spam Sap and do something else if necessary. Not only this, but block and dodge roll are inefficient in this context as well, since the most effective defense against destro ult is range (hence why mobility is so critical).

There's a reason why some call stamina players in raids "rapids / caltrops slaves".

(EDIT: Reading my post, it sounds like a "nerf destro ult!" post)

I pretty much agree with all these points, but I would like to bring up that these rolls are completely flipped for solo small group play (1 to 3 people) stamina is has a decent advantage in this type of playstyle because stamina defensive abilities scale better with the more people you are fighting. where magicka is the opposite. Magicka also has a few other weakness in this style of play one is the lack of initial burst or in the case of mag dk no burst at all. So magicka builds have to work up to a burst. Where stamina builds can burst right away because their spammable dps is alot higher.

More on point to the original post. I don't see what the harm would be in giving stamina builds a stamina vicious death. To give them somewhat of a place in large scale PvP. The only problem I would see with it is that stamina doesn't really have the tools to take advantage of it fully. What made vicious death strong in the past was proxy det and what makes it strong now is the destro ultimate. Stamina build don't have a ball group busting ability like that. And if you give them an ability like that you would have to give magicka builds mobility to balance it, but I would be for both of those changes.

Well, the title of the thread being "Stamina large scale power and ability", 1-3 players isn't quite "large scale" And yes, for small skirmishes against 6-8 players, stamina has its own card to play. I honestly don't want to see a stamina VD, because that would be a band-aid fix, and I'm getting a little tired of solving problems with sets.

The Destro ult is by its mechanics extremely complicated to actually counter when used properly, but that's a beast on its own to rebalance >.>

When it comes to magicka mobility, there's actually a tool with 2 major weaknesses: Mist Form. First weakness being having to be a vampire (thus fire damage and FG abilities vulnerability), second being gap closer snares (which is pretty noticeable in some vids Etaniel posted recently for those who are interested), while Streak and dodge rolls aren't limited to the same extent, since they have a fixed distance. No, this is not a "nerf Streak & roll" post, this is a "fix gap closer snares" one

Kinda wonder what @Sanct16 or other Zerg Squad scrubz wud have to say on the matter.

We dont run that many stamina based people ATM just because more storms more more death procs the only use we really have for stamina is a rapids potato sad days as someone who was a a stamblade nado spammer

On the squishyness of stam/magicka

For stamina bladecloak vigor is normally enough to keep you alive vs other desto ultis and trains.

However for our magicka users we used to run trainee for obvious reasons but now pirate skelton is just too good with good enough healers magicka is easily kept alive and mistform is really good for mobility and just overall catching up and being defensive aslong as your group knows about it.