How to make surviving in pvp not so easy mode

FloppyTouch · December 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

I'm not saying we should all be squishy. What I'm saying is that being hard to kill, a good healer, or tank, is just too simple. You can't call one a good healer in eso because there is no art to it. One does not have to understand the system of major or minor buffs or game mechanics to be a good healer. In eso right very easy for one to pick the game up and be as good as you by throwing on a particular build.

Riiiight, people like Winnie/Dayse/Books can't be called "good" because everything is just brain dead, mhm. Totally.

You come in here and call for survivability to be made harder on all classes by nerfing specific abilities which provide tankiness/sustain/healing and then try to say your position isn't advocating making people more squishy? Do I need to pull out a dictionary?

Well ok I guess you can say I'm asking for people to squishy then. All I'm trying to do is give zos a couple ideas at raising the skill gap. If you don't think this game is just a spam fest you are wrong. The reason why this balancing needs to take place is because in your traditional mmo you have cooldowns, which force players to make big decisions before making a move. If you want arenas/battlegrounds to be competitive such changes need to be made and I'm sure many will agree with me. If you are into dueling at all you should at least be able to understand what I'm trying to say. These nerfs won't make you complete squish, they will simply force players to block or dodge roll more which is were the skill comes in

I think you are fundamentally missing the aspect of the game you actually want changed. Most of the things you're picking out about people "surviving too easily/long" are healing. Healing can be ridiculously powerful, but for the most part the ways you can stack healing isn't the core problem. If you nerf healing, you have to also nerf burst dmg.

The core, fundamental issue you should be talking about is adding the softcaps back that were removed in 1.6 and thus never present on console. This was how the game was originally designed to work with no cooldowns, but then Nick Konkle left, Wrobel took over as combat lead and bye bye softcaps.

I'm going to assume you weren't a PC transfer, so as such you literally never experienced what playing with the softcap system for a year was like. What the softcaps did was place an upper limit on all stats, after which any investment only gave half return. A niche build could still stack stats and push one particular direction (dmg/sustain/tank ect), but what they couldn't do was have it all statwise. The best builds would push their primary stats to soft cap and then invest in other stats for utility.

With softcaps, sustain was the most important build aspect. You couldn't just spam your dps/defensive abilities because you'd just end up out of resources. This was also before the block and dodge nerfs, so all builds could actually make use of those mechanics to a decent extent. If you go back and watch PC vids from before March 2015 you'll see what I'm talking about.

What you see now w/ no softcaps and the stupid CP system is a meta where everything has to be pushed to extremes. Damage has to be pushed high because healing can be boosted so high, and because defensive abilities like shields/shuffle/CC break/ect can be recast constantly. Thus you end up with a world where stam builds can be rolly pollies forever while mag builds can barely afford to dodge once or twice. And proc sets on top of everything just exacerbates the inherent problems of no softcaps.

Soft caps and hard caps need to come back it made the game a lot more enjoyable for me. This would fix a lot of issues in pvp with healing and damage being done

Knootewoot · December 2016

Lord_MK wrote: »

Stamblade/Magblade- To be honest , the nb is in the perfect spot right now. I think many will agree with me. When procs are nerfed i don't think it will much to complain about. Nb damage is insane but if you catch them with the combo they're gone.

I don't think mag- and stamblades are in the same line. Should be mentioned separately.

Isellskooma · December 2016

Knootewoot wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

Stamblade/Magblade- To be honest , the nb is in the perfect spot right now. I think many will agree with me. When procs are nerfed i don't think it will much to complain about. Nb damage is insane but if you catch them with the combo they're gone.

I don't think mag- and stamblades are in the same line. Should be mentioned separately.

I think the only reason why Magbalde struggles with 1vX is cause of proc sets, heavy armor. But we'll see.

Joy_Division · December 2016

OP claims he wants more skill in PvP for players to be survivable, suggests to gut the healing class's ability to heal, asserts the mDKs outperforms stam (!) and then says nothing about Rally, Vigor, + Vitality pots.

Because magicka users need to pay a "price" for snb heals but stam obviously ought to get their healing for free from the offensive weapon they want to use.

K, I gotcha.

UppGRAYxDD · December 2016

OP is a stam build, disregard all hate directed towards magicka players specifically templars.....im sorry that you cant 2 piece a magplar cause of BOL....

zuto40 · December 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

I'm not saying we should all be squishy. What I'm saying is that being hard to kill, a good healer, or tank, is just too simple. You can't call one a good healer in eso because there is no art to it. One does not have to understand the system of major or minor buffs or game mechanics to be a good healer. In eso right very easy for one to pick the game up and be as good as you by throwing on a particular build.

Riiiight, people like Winnie/Dayse/Books can't be called "good" because everything is just brain dead, mhm. Totally.

You come in here and call for survivability to be made harder on all classes by nerfing specific abilities which provide tankiness/sustain/healing and then try to say your position isn't advocating making people more squishy? Do I need to pull out a dictionary?

I think what he is trying to say is he wants survivability to still be good. But not be so easy. Right now it's way too easy. For players to just put on some heavy armor and just stay alive. That's basically all anyone is trying to do now is just not die until help arrives.

its way too easy, all these tankplars spamming bol for a solid minute

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP claims he wants more skill in PvP for players to be survivable, suggests to gut the healing class's ability to heal, asserts the mDKs outperforms stam (!) and then says nothing about Rally, Vigor, + Vitality pots.

Because magicka users need to pay a "price" for snb heals but stam obviously ought to get their healing for free from the offensive weapon they want to use.

K, I gotcha.

In duels and groups mdk easily beats Stam, once these proc sets are gone mdk will once again be the undisputed champion

FloppyTouch · December 2016

zuto40 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

I'm not saying we should all be squishy. What I'm saying is that being hard to kill, a good healer, or tank, is just too simple. You can't call one a good healer in eso because there is no art to it. One does not have to understand the system of major or minor buffs or game mechanics to be a good healer. In eso right very easy for one to pick the game up and be as good as you by throwing on a particular build.

Riiiight, people like Winnie/Dayse/Books can't be called "good" because everything is just brain dead, mhm. Totally.

You come in here and call for survivability to be made harder on all classes by nerfing specific abilities which provide tankiness/sustain/healing and then try to say your position isn't advocating making people more squishy? Do I need to pull out a dictionary?

I think what he is trying to say is he wants survivability to still be good. But not be so easy. Right now it's way too easy. For players to just put on some heavy armor and just stay alive. That's basically all anyone is trying to do now is just not die until help arrives.

its way too easy, all these tankplars spamming bol for a solid minute

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP claims he wants more skill in PvP for players to be survivable, suggests to gut the healing class's ability to heal, asserts the mDKs outperforms stam (!) and then says nothing about Rally, Vigor, + Vitality pots.

Because magicka users need to pay a "price" for snb heals but stam obviously ought to get their healing for free from the offensive weapon they want to use.

K, I gotcha.

In duels and groups mdk easily beats Stam, once these proc sets are gone mdk will once again be the undisputed champion

Duels is not pvp saying something is good in a duel means nothing in open world

Solariken · December 2016

I understand why you would like to see these changes, but I think you missed the mark on how to fix the problems.

BoL/HtD cost is fine - it should simply be made less bursty by moving ~30% of its heal into a HOT.

Stamplars and Dk's need Major Mending because they do not have high mobility or an escape. What actually needs the nerf is Rally - I would like a smaller burst heal but a slightly bigger HOT. Temps/Dk's seem more tanky than they really are with Major Evasion which also needs a nerf or deleted from Shuffle.

The mDk Embers heal is too strong - they should nerf that and buff Power Lash by having it proc on any stunned or immobilized target.

Heavy attacks should absolutely be bashable. It was stupid that they changed that.

MagSorcs are pretty balanced right now but the Lich set and a couple others that give stupid high regen need to be nerfed.

Ishammael · December 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

I'm not saying we should all be squishy. What I'm saying is that being hard to kill, a good healer, or tank, is just too simple. You can't call one a good healer in eso because there is no art to it. One does not have to understand the system of major or minor buffs or game mechanics to be a good healer. In eso right very easy for one to pick the game up and be as good as you by throwing on a particular build.

Riiiight, people like Winnie/Dayse/Books can't be called "good" because everything is just brain dead, mhm. Totally.

You come in here and call for survivability to be made harder on all classes by nerfing specific abilities which provide tankiness/sustain/healing and then try to say your position isn't advocating making people more squishy? Do I need to pull out a dictionary?

Well ok I guess you can say I'm asking for people to squishy then. All I'm trying to do is give zos a couple ideas at raising the skill gap. If you don't think this game is just a spam fest you are wrong. The reason why this balancing needs to take place is because in your traditional mmo you have cooldowns, which force players to make big decisions before making a move. If you want arenas/battlegrounds to be competitive such changes need to be made and I'm sure many will agree with me. If you are into dueling at all you should at least be able to understand what I'm trying to say. These nerfs won't make you complete squish, they will simply force players to block or dodge roll more which is were the skill comes in

I think you are fundamentally missing the aspect of the game you actually want changed. Most of the things you're picking out about people "surviving too easily/long" are healing. Healing can be ridiculously powerful, but for the most part the ways you can stack healing isn't the core problem. If you nerf healing, you have to also nerf burst dmg.

The core, fundamental issue you should be talking about is adding the softcaps back that were removed in 1.6 and thus never present on console. This was how the game was originally designed to work with no cooldowns, but then Nick Konkle left, Wrobel took over as combat lead and bye bye softcaps.

I'm going to assume you weren't a PC transfer, so as such you literally never experienced what playing with the softcap system for a year was like. What the softcaps did was place an upper limit on all stats, after which any investment only gave half return. A niche build could still stack stats and push one particular direction (dmg/sustain/tank ect), but what they couldn't do was have it all statwise. The best builds would push their primary stats to soft cap and then invest in other stats for utility.

With softcaps, sustain was the most important build aspect. You couldn't just spam your dps/defensive abilities because you'd just end up out of resources. This was also before the block and dodge nerfs, so all builds could actually make use of those mechanics to a decent extent. If you go back and watch PC vids from before March 2015 you'll see what I'm talking about.

What you see now w/ no softcaps and the stupid CP system is a meta where everything has to be pushed to extremes. Damage has to be pushed high because healing can be boosted so high, and because defensive abilities like shields/shuffle/CC break/ect can be recast constantly. Thus you end up with a world where stam builds can be rolly pollies forever while mag builds can barely afford to dodge once or twice. And proc sets on top of everything just exacerbates the inherent problems of no softcaps.

Am crying for 1.5 right now.
Tears rolling down my face
I want to believe in seducer plus warlock again.

HoloYoitsu · December 2016

Solariken wrote: »

The mDk Embers heal is too strong - they should nerf that and buff Power Lash by having it proc on any stunned or immobilized target.

The strength of Embers is justified by its gimmick; you have to leave it applied for some time to build to anything worthwhile, and on top of that you have to be right in their face to actually activate the heal when you need it. Why nerf Embers just to replace it with another gimmick heal? The proper course should be to restore GDB as a viable main heal for mag DK.

Solariken wrote: »

MagSorcs are pretty balanced right now but the Lich set and a couple others that give stupid high regen need to be nerfed.

Sure, right after Wrobel corrects the base skill cost calculation code that was changed when they removed vet levels and resulted in a 10-12% across the board skill cost increase. Or are we just forgetting that ever happened?

If you have enough spec'd into regen (CP, attro, ect) Lich procs average out to ~600-1k (depending on active pot+cont atk or not) sustained regen if you assume proccing it back to back every time it comes off cooldown. In actuality, you almost never end up proc'ing it at 100% cooldown rate. For a 5 piece that offers 0 damage I wouldn't call that "stupid high that needs to be nerfed", considering what I mentioned earlier. If this is going to become about stam not having a mirror set, then I'll point you to the "stam skill base costs are significantly cheaper than mag" corpus.

Other sustain sets aren't so far off depending on how you spec. Seducer's cost reduction for instance averages out to about equivalent to 500 regen assuming you're using abilities every GCD. The upside of Seducer being craftable makes builds like heavy Seducer + BSW DK possible.

PS: If mag sorc is perfectly balanced right now, where are all of the mag sorcs? All I see is less than a handful of skilled mag sorcs per faction. The only pick up in numbers I've observed has been some low skilled ones zerg surfing with destro ult since One Stamriel.

zuto40 · December 2016

FloppyTouch wrote: »

zuto40 wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

I'm not saying we should all be squishy. What I'm saying is that being hard to kill, a good healer, or tank, is just too simple. You can't call one a good healer in eso because there is no art to it. One does not have to understand the system of major or minor buffs or game mechanics to be a good healer. In eso right very easy for one to pick the game up and be as good as you by throwing on a particular build.

Riiiight, people like Winnie/Dayse/Books can't be called "good" because everything is just brain dead, mhm. Totally.

You come in here and call for survivability to be made harder on all classes by nerfing specific abilities which provide tankiness/sustain/healing and then try to say your position isn't advocating making people more squishy? Do I need to pull out a dictionary?

I think what he is trying to say is he wants survivability to still be good. But not be so easy. Right now it's way too easy. For players to just put on some heavy armor and just stay alive. That's basically all anyone is trying to do now is just not die until help arrives.

its way too easy, all these tankplars spamming bol for a solid minute

Joy_Division wrote: »

OP claims he wants more skill in PvP for players to be survivable, suggests to gut the healing class's ability to heal, asserts the mDKs outperforms stam (!) and then says nothing about Rally, Vigor, + Vitality pots.

Because magicka users need to pay a "price" for snb heals but stam obviously ought to get their healing for free from the offensive weapon they want to use.

K, I gotcha.

In duels and groups mdk easily beats Stam, once these proc sets are gone mdk will once again be the undisputed champion

Duels is not pvp saying something is good in a duel means nothing in open world

I said duels and groups, groups is mostly what PvP is, mdk brings so much more to the table then any Stam except perhaps Stam sorc with caltrops, negate, and maneuver

Jsmalls · December 2016

First and foremost, Respect to Morning Kush for being arguably the best Pvp player on XB1 NA. Now that that's out of the way...

I think you were a little biased on NB capabilities. They have a HUGE Arsenal, and amazing passives. I'll give you that if you catch an average NB you can burst them very easily. But great NBs will dodge 80% of your hard hitting attacks. Then be right back in your face. They can most effectively use DW giving them a huge advantage as far as set pieces, and raw weapon damage.. and Incap is still an insane move. All the perks, a stun, and a massive hit... This ultimate can easily end a fight, and it's extremely cheap.

Past that... I agree that any decent player can now survive massive amounts of damage without wincing. In 1 v 1s this is a huge problem but as the numbers increase it does solve this problem. 2 v 1 there is virtually no problem against any class. But this is very much due to the heavy armor meta... Which hopefully will be addressed.

So I can understand where the OP is coming from. And I completely agree with the fact that BoL needs to be looked at. When you are healing yourself it's fine. But if you have a group with 4 to 5 Templars... The cheese is real. Unless you one shot them, cough heavy armor and 25k+ health... They'll be to full from their 4 other group members spamming BoL... Very, very, very frustrating.

MalakithAlamahdi · December 2016

Can you send me whatever drugs you used before typing this? They seem like a blast.

thankyourat · December 2016

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

Can you send me whatever drugs you used before typing this? They seem like a blast.

Even if you don't like the changes he suggested he is right in terms of they have to change something. Especially with magplar. You fight 2 or 3 magplars and it doesn't matter if they are bad or not you probably aren't going to kill them. It's stupid that it's so easy to stay alive on a magplar. You don't even know how to play you just need to have BoL slotted and wear heavy armor

KingYogi415 · December 2016

Instead of asking for everything to be nerfed, learn to play.

Every class feels powerful = balance

I wish half these whiners would spend a day in a Ark pvp server.

Cheers!

Xvorg · December 2016

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

HoloYoitsu wrote: »

Lord_MK wrote: »

I'm not saying we should all be squishy. What I'm saying is that being hard to kill, a good healer, or tank, is just too simple. You can't call one a good healer in eso because there is no art to it. One does not have to understand the system of major or minor buffs or game mechanics to be a good healer. In eso right very easy for one to pick the game up and be as good as you by throwing on a particular build.

Riiiight, people like Winnie/Dayse/Books can't be called "good" because everything is just brain dead, mhm. Totally.

You come in here and call for survivability to be made harder on all classes by nerfing specific abilities which provide tankiness/sustain/healing and then try to say your position isn't advocating making people more squishy? Do I need to pull out a dictionary?

Well ok I guess you can say I'm asking for people to squishy then. All I'm trying to do is give zos a couple ideas at raising the skill gap. If you don't think this game is just a spam fest you are wrong. The reason why this balancing needs to take place is because in your traditional mmo you have cooldowns, which force players to make big decisions before making a move. If you want arenas/battlegrounds to be competitive such changes need to be made and I'm sure many will agree with me. If you are into dueling at all you should at least be able to understand what I'm trying to say. These nerfs won't make you complete squish, they will simply force players to block or dodge roll more which is were the skill comes in

I think you are fundamentally missing the aspect of the game you actually want changed. Most of the things you're picking out about people "surviving too easily/long" are healing. Healing can be ridiculously powerful, but for the most part the ways you can stack healing isn't the core problem. If you nerf healing, you have to also nerf burst dmg.

The core, fundamental issue you should be talking about is adding the softcaps back that were removed in 1.6 and thus never present on console. This was how the game was originally designed to work with no cooldowns, but then Nick Konkle left, Wrobel took over as combat lead and bye bye softcaps.

I'm going to assume you weren't a PC transfer, so as such you literally never experienced what playing with the softcap system for a year was like. What the softcaps did was place an upper limit on all stats, after which any investment only gave half return. A niche build could still stack stats and push one particular direction (dmg/sustain/tank ect), but what they couldn't do was have it all statwise. The best builds would push their primary stats to soft cap and then invest in other stats for utility.

With softcaps, sustain was the most important build aspect. You couldn't just spam your dps/defensive abilities because you'd just end up out of resources. This was also before the block and dodge nerfs, so all builds could actually make use of those mechanics to a decent extent. If you go back and watch PC vids from before March 2015 you'll see what I'm talking about.

What you see now w/ no softcaps and the stupid CP system is a meta where everything has to be pushed to extremes. Damage has to be pushed high because healing can be boosted so high, and because defensive abilities like shields/shuffle/CC break/ect can be recast constantly. Thus you end up with a world where stam builds can be rolly pollies forever while mag builds can barely afford to dodge once or twice. And proc sets on top of everything just exacerbates the inherent problems of no softcaps.

I miss my DW DK using rapid strikes and burning embers.... I miss softcaps )=