Kudos to OP for a well thought out, non-ranting post. This is the kind of constructive criticism that can help ZoS. Also, ZoS, thanks for looking at this.

We know going to Cyro can adjust your stats to a baseline, why couldn't it adjust a set's stats too?

IF(zone=Cyrodiil) THEN ProcSetChance=one-value ELSE ProcSetChange = another-value

Might make the proc descriptions a little longer, but it would seem to address OPs concern while making PvE people happy by not nerfing them in PvE.

I mostly PvE, even in Cyro, but heard the serious PvPers abandoning efforts to protect a keep because many people in the enemy party were using proc sets and synergizing. (I'd blame my death on that if I could, but I got dogpiled by 3 enemies who managed to drop 6 attacks in less than a second. I'm thinking macros were the more likely cause.)

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@KramUzibra

You say

Proc sets like vipers or redmountain need to be seriously looked at and restructured since they are no skill required sets that provide guaranteed, unblockable, and undodgable damage.

Three questions

When you say no skill required do you mean "no skill or expertise on the players part" or "player did not have to click an in-game skill"?

I have seen it used both ways.

Second, Viper sting procs on a melee attack. You say it is unblockable. But if I block the melee attack, isn't the proc dmg blocked unless somehow I drop the block btwn hit and proc? Also you say undodgable, if my shuffle miss change or dodge roll causes the melee miss I don't get proc viper sting dmg, do i?


Third question

If a weapon has a shock enchant, do you also view that enchant as no skill required, undodgeable and unblockable?

Hmm..never looked at it like that, I'll have to do some research in order to properly answer those questions. Either way zos apparently understands there to be problem with procs which is way they are seeking possible solution.

No the enchantment only applies when the target is hit. So it's at least dodge able.

Viper doesnt proc on a miss in my experience and is just as blocksble as poison enchsnt.

But when you finish researching whst you meant by skill required, pls let me know.

Don't need to research the skill aspect of certain procs. in my opinion No skill is spam until all my procs go off and kill my opponent. Which is why I run hundings, marksman with kena and blood spawn. The damage I apply is because I activated the ability that applies that damage in sequence with positioning, buffs, heals, dodging and blocking when necessary, timing, anticipation, Situational awareness and utilizing the surroundings i.e line of sight. Gap closing and spamming puncture until all your procs hit is not skill.

So from this I would guess there are a lot of gear and builds that you would deride as no skill, not just no procs. Would I be right?

Super-health blaze shield "bubbleplar"? builds seem more similar in play mechanics to procs than you derision-free style.

As far as the SETS go, you are not describing a problem with the set.

You are describing your "problem" with a play style build combo that work together and are not like yours.

Case in point, your build.

Hundings 5pc applies every time you click on anything boosted by wpn dmg. It "procs" it's bonus damage as many times a second as you can have effects up. More over, it will "proc" whether or not you do flippin' back flip six-finger death spiral rotations of skillful divinity or if you just spam rapid strikes. It will proc on your bow attacks from stealth. It will proc on your melee attacks. What you do, whatever you do, it procs.

Key being if you need to be ranged, it still procs.

Vipee, well, it only procs at melee. Enemy kept you mostly our side melee, no proc.
Viper, every 4s. Enemy blocks for a second when you first get close.. blocks the attack and proc with one stamina cost not two then has 2-3s to play.

So to get the benefit of the 5pc bonus, the viper player has actual objectives he needs to accomplish.

You can always just choose to deride one playstylle or another.

But in reality viper pays out its 5pc bonus in far fewer, more limited circumstances than hundings 5pc.

Just like you get (we hope) more dmg from you skilled play of doom than you would from a muggle spam attack, so you could likely get more damage out of the taunt set.

The SET is neither skilled or unskilled.
There may or may not be spam sets - seem to recall sets req two light attacks to trigger bonus. Something I am sure a skill centric spam deriding player like yourself wouldn't go near, I suppose.

Well agree to disagree I guess. I am most certainly more skilled at this game than others players and other players are more skilled than I but of course you would disagree since apparently skill is irrelevant. On paper hundings should out perform vipers since hundings gives and overall damage buff to your character but that's simply not the case. I regularly fight a friend of mine and we run the same build I beat him 90 percent of the time. Once he puts vipers on somehow the results are reversed. Regardless zos realizes certain proc sets are broken which is why they are trying to fix them.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Smepic wrote: »

Most players take advantage of proc sets now, just because they are too strong. Allow me to provide my thoughts on the subject and propose a solution for balance.

THE ISSUE WITH PROC SETS

Programmed random occurence sets are an unnatural damage source. They do not require you to press a button or consume resources, contrary to a skill. Most proc sets can also not be dodged. Victims of proc sets are dealt unexpected burst damage. Another big issue with proc sets is how they can be synergized, especially those with a low cooldown and a high to guaranteed chance to proc. A few examples: Viper's Sting, Velidreth and Tremorscale.

A SOLUTION

A high to guaranteed chance to proc unnatural burst damage is a problem. All proc sets should be about risk and reward. If you use one, it should not be a reliable damage source, but rather a pleasant surprise. Therefore, all proc sets should have a low to medium chance to proc, the maximum being twenty percent, just like poisons. Synergizing proc sets should not be possible as it is now; a global cooldown should be introduced. The cooldown should be ten seconds, again, just like poisons. If this were to be added, you would in a way be punished for using several proc sets.

10 second cooldown coupled with a low proc chance? Your well meaninged solution just rendered just about every proc set as inefficient and decon fodder. As it is, Viper's on it's own is not an efficient DPS set.

The solution should not be to turn reward gear into decon fodder. The only issue I have with these sets is the multiple procs that occur simultaneously. I can handle them well enough otherwise. A short global cooldown of say 3 seconds is more than enough time for us to ensure our near infiftie resource builds with heal healing.damage avoidance setups can consistently survive against multiple proc sets.

Yea viper isnt efficient alone. It only accounts for 25% of my total dmg in pvp on stam NB

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@KramUzibra

You say

Proc sets like vipers or redmountain need to be seriously looked at and restructured since they are no skill required sets that provide guaranteed, unblockable, and undodgable damage.

Three questions

When you say no skill required do you mean "no skill or expertise on the players part" or "player did not have to click an in-game skill"?

I have seen it used both ways.

Second, Viper sting procs on a melee attack. You say it is unblockable. But if I block the melee attack, isn't the proc dmg blocked unless somehow I drop the block btwn hit and proc? Also you say undodgable, if my shuffle miss change or dodge roll causes the melee miss I don't get proc viper sting dmg, do i?


Third question

If a weapon has a shock enchant, do you also view that enchant as no skill required, undodgeable and unblockable?

Hmm..never looked at it like that, I'll have to do some research in order to properly answer those questions. Either way zos apparently understands there to be problem with procs which is way they are seeking possible solution.

No the enchantment only applies when the target is hit. So it's at least dodge able.

Viper doesnt proc on a miss in my experience and is just as blocksble as poison enchsnt.

But when you finish researching whst you meant by skill required, pls let me know.

Don't need to research the skill aspect of certain procs. in my opinion No skill is spam until all my procs go off and kill my opponent. Which is why I run hundings, marksman with kena and blood spawn. The damage I apply is because I activated the ability that applies that damage in sequence with positioning, buffs, heals, dodging and blocking when necessary, timing, anticipation, Situational awareness and utilizing the surroundings i.e line of sight. Gap closing and spamming puncture until all your procs hit is not skill.

So from this I would guess there are a lot of gear and builds that you would deride as no skill, not just no procs. Would I be right?

Super-health blaze shield "bubbleplar"? builds seem more similar in play mechanics to procs than you derision-free style.

As far as the SETS go, you are not describing a problem with the set.

You are describing your "problem" with a play style build combo that work together and are not like yours.

Case in point, your build.

Hundings 5pc applies every time you click on anything boosted by wpn dmg. It "procs" it's bonus damage as many times a second as you can have effects up. More over, it will "proc" whether or not you do flippin' back flip six-finger death spiral rotations of skillful divinity or if you just spam rapid strikes. It will proc on your bow attacks from stealth. It will proc on your melee attacks. What you do, whatever you do, it procs.

Key being if you need to be ranged, it still procs.

Vipee, well, it only procs at melee. Enemy kept you mostly our side melee, no proc.
Viper, every 4s. Enemy blocks for a second when you first get close.. blocks the attack and proc with one stamina cost not two then has 2-3s to play.

So to get the benefit of the 5pc bonus, the viper player has actual objectives he needs to accomplish.

You can always just choose to deride one playstylle or another.

But in reality viper pays out its 5pc bonus in far fewer, more limited circumstances than hundings 5pc.

Just like you get (we hope) more dmg from you skilled play of doom than you would from a muggle spam attack, so you could likely get more damage out of the taunt set.

The SET is neither skilled or unskilled.
There may or may not be spam sets - seem to recall sets req two light attacks to trigger bonus. Something I am sure a skill centric spam deriding player like yourself wouldn't go near, I suppose.

Well agree to disagree I guess. I am most certainly more skilled at this game than others players and other players are more skilled than I but of course you would disagree since apparently skill is irrelevant. On paper hundings should out perform vipers since hundings gives and overall damage buff to your character but that's simply not the case. I regularly fight a friend of mine and we run the same build I beat him 90 percent of the time. Once he puts vipers on somehow the results are reversed. Regardless zos realizes certain proc sets are broken which is why they are trying to fix them.

About the bold... not sure how you read my post where i said you being more skilled would get more dsmage out of different sets.

I have no reason to disagree with you when you say there are pleyers more skilled than you.

About your viper comparison anecdotal analysis, you speak very vaguely so i can only try and show some assumptive errors.

Since both vipers and hundings provide increases to damage output in different ways, i will assume you mean to say overall damage gain from theory-crafting perfect should favor hundings but... more overall damage does play into wins but many things do. The biggest difference between hundings and vipers is burst v constant. Vipers provides a huge early burst and very contantly timed follow-up bursts whereas hundings adds extra damage from its 5th to every attack or ability based on weapon.

That means viper can shine in a one-on-one esp against aggressive medium armor type builds where def is secondary.

But just because viper can shine in one-v-one vs aggressive medium builds does not at all mean its op.

How does it do against the heavy builds compared to hundings?
How does it do against ranged builds compared to hundings?
How does it do against a ranged build sorc sitting in a minefield?

As for you and your buddy, even you have to admit skill is not universal. Your skill with hundings builds is great for thst but it doesnt equate to skill at similar level with all builds.

So when your bud plays your build against you he loses.

When he plays viper against you he wins.

Thats not saying the set is op as much as it may be saying your approach to fighting vipers is less skillful than your others or his skill with playing viper is better.
Playstyle is not irrelevant.
Playing a stronger set you arent familiar with usually wont be better than playing a good set you knowbhow to fight with.
Similarly, playing a style thats not as familiar or less suited to the set is usually bad.

Just pointing out the "keys to victory" for playing in or against vipers are a lot different than they are for a hundings based build. So the i win when but he wins when anecdotes between two players with limited builds... not at all conclusive... except maybe to show how beneficial to you getting a viper nerf would be.

OK so I'm in full medium gear how would I go about winning a 1v1 against someone in black rose heavy, vipers, Tremorscale with poisons and max cp?

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

KramUzibra wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

@KramUzibra

You say

Proc sets like vipers or redmountain need to be seriously looked at and restructured since they are no skill required sets that provide guaranteed, unblockable, and undodgable damage.

Three questions

When you say no skill required do you mean "no skill or expertise on the players part" or "player did not have to click an in-game skill"?

I have seen it used both ways.

Second, Viper sting procs on a melee attack. You say it is unblockable. But if I block the melee attack, isn't the proc dmg blocked unless somehow I drop the block btwn hit and proc? Also you say undodgable, if my shuffle miss change or dodge roll causes the melee miss I don't get proc viper sting dmg, do i?


Third question

If a weapon has a shock enchant, do you also view that enchant as no skill required, undodgeable and unblockable?

Hmm..never looked at it like that, I'll have to do some research in order to properly answer those questions. Either way zos apparently understands there to be problem with procs which is way they are seeking possible solution.

No the enchantment only applies when the target is hit. So it's at least dodge able.

Viper doesnt proc on a miss in my experience and is just as blocksble as poison enchsnt.

But when you finish researching whst you meant by skill required, pls let me know.

Don't need to research the skill aspect of certain procs. in my opinion No skill is spam until all my procs go off and kill my opponent. Which is why I run hundings, marksman with kena and blood spawn. The damage I apply is because I activated the ability that applies that damage in sequence with positioning, buffs, heals, dodging and blocking when necessary, timing, anticipation, Situational awareness and utilizing the surroundings i.e line of sight. Gap closing and spamming puncture until all your procs hit is not skill.

So from this I would guess there are a lot of gear and builds that you would deride as no skill, not just no procs. Would I be right?

Super-health blaze shield "bubbleplar"? builds seem more similar in play mechanics to procs than you derision-free style.

As far as the SETS go, you are not describing a problem with the set.

You are describing your "problem" with a play style build combo that work together and are not like yours.

Case in point, your build.

Hundings 5pc applies every time you click on anything boosted by wpn dmg. It "procs" it's bonus damage as many times a second as you can have effects up. More over, it will "proc" whether or not you do flippin' back flip six-finger death spiral rotations of skillful divinity or if you just spam rapid strikes. It will proc on your bow attacks from stealth. It will proc on your melee attacks. What you do, whatever you do, it procs.

Key being if you need to be ranged, it still procs.

Vipee, well, it only procs at melee. Enemy kept you mostly our side melee, no proc.
Viper, every 4s. Enemy blocks for a second when you first get close.. blocks the attack and proc with one stamina cost not two then has 2-3s to play.

So to get the benefit of the 5pc bonus, the viper player has actual objectives he needs to accomplish.

You can always just choose to deride one playstylle or another.

But in reality viper pays out its 5pc bonus in far fewer, more limited circumstances than hundings 5pc.

Just like you get (we hope) more dmg from you skilled play of doom than you would from a muggle spam attack, so you could likely get more damage out of the taunt set.

The SET is neither skilled or unskilled.
There may or may not be spam sets - seem to recall sets req two light attacks to trigger bonus. Something I am sure a skill centric spam deriding player like yourself wouldn't go near, I suppose.

Well agree to disagree I guess. I am most certainly more skilled at this game than others players and other players are more skilled than I but of course you would disagree since apparently skill is irrelevant. On paper hundings should out perform vipers since hundings gives and overall damage buff to your character but that's simply not the case. I regularly fight a friend of mine and we run the same build I beat him 90 percent of the time. Once he puts vipers on somehow the results are reversed. Regardless zos realizes certain proc sets are broken which is why they are trying to fix them.

About the bold... not sure how you read my post where i said you being more skilled would get more dsmage out of different sets.

I have no reason to disagree with you when you say there are pleyers more skilled than you.

About your viper comparison anecdotal analysis, you speak very vaguely so i can only try and show some assumptive errors.

Since both vipers and hundings provide increases to damage output in different ways, i will assume you mean to say overall damage gain from theory-crafting perfect should favor hundings but... more overall damage does play into wins but many things do. The biggest difference between hundings and vipers is burst v constant. Vipers provides a huge early burst and very contantly timed follow-up bursts whereas hundings adds extra damage from its 5th to every attack or ability based on weapon.

That means viper can shine in a one-on-one esp against aggressive medium armor type builds where def is secondary.

But just because viper can shine in one-v-one vs aggressive medium builds does not at all mean its op.

How does it do against the heavy builds compared to hundings?
How does it do against ranged builds compared to hundings?
How does it do against a ranged build sorc sitting in a minefield?

As for you and your buddy, even you have to admit skill is not universal. Your skill with hundings builds is great for thst but it doesnt equate to skill at similar level with all builds.

So when your bud plays your build against you he loses.

When he plays viper against you he wins.

Thats not saying the set is op as much as it may be saying your approach to fighting vipers is less skillful than your others or his skill with playing viper is better.
Playstyle is not irrelevant.
Playing a stronger set you arent familiar with usually wont be better than playing a good set you knowbhow to fight with.
Similarly, playing a style thats not as familiar or less suited to the set is usually bad.

Just pointing out the "keys to victory" for playing in or against vipers are a lot different than they are for a hundings based build. So the i win when but he wins when anecdotes between two players with limited builds... not at all conclusive... except maybe to show how beneficial to you getting a viper nerf would be.

OK so I'm in full medium gear how would I go about winning a 1v1 against someone in black rose heavy, vipers, Tremorscale with poisons and max cp?

So you start by self-limiting away undaunted mettle bonuses and all drop sets that aren't medium? The first key to your victory is to accept that it is not the case that all medium is a wondertool universal win answer to every challenge. Such a restrictive viewpoint is definitely going to encounter challenges extremely difficult to over come.

Until you get beyond that, not much can do.


If the goal of the "nerf sets which list damage gains as separate line items in recap" is to make or keep "all medium all damage beat everything" true... keep the "max damage for the win meta" going... thats not a goal i would support.

It SHOULD be the case that any well designed build well played should have some cases against equally well played well dedigned builds where it had a clear solid difficult to overcome advantage, some where its basically on par and some where its at solid clear solid difficult to overcome disadvantsge.

Against br-vip-trem i would be more inclined to run a ranged magic set mixed hvy lt.

Riggsy wrote: »

No one cared when ZOS brought in the Vicious Death set, many praised it as needed to kill zergs because they were in fact poor players unable to play in groups. That cheap set acted just like these new proc sets, now everyone is complaining because of this monster they created.

Vicious death was at least situational if you weren't in a ball it didn't work. And the bombers weren't so tanky with great resource management. So 1v1 they weren't a problem. These new proc sets are far worse and harmful for at least the way I prefer to play. The amount of times I've been bombed I can count on my hands and they were all at keep defense's. But viper is in my death recap at least 85% of the time

STEVIL wrote: »

Zamuro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, just want to let you know that we're exploring some solutions for the current situation with proc sets. When we have the details nailed down, we'll be sure to share them with you.

yea, nerf them to the ground or just delete them.... they should be a little bonuses to ur hero, not dealing more dmg than u... come on, my selene monster set deals 15k dmg and i cant hit with my hero for more than 8k... just without words... this game cant be played without ugly monster set

Selene procs 15% for 12k base at gold upped by crits and cp. Presumably you have adders to get thst consistently to 15k.

Somehow that same character only gets 8k hits? Wow. Thats like 6.5k before the same adders?

Unless you are running a defensive build and intentionally relying on selenes for dmg, those numbers seem inconsistent.

But to be clear... if you only make one attack per second (no dot, no weave, just one single 8k attack per second) you will score 32k in 4s vs selenes 15k.

That assumes the 15% procs always. If you assume most often it takes 3 attack to proc selenes (3 chances is likely to proc about 41%).

If you assume 4s cooldpwn andbproc on third attack - numbers become 48k you and 15k selenes.

Even if you just look at burst over 3s peyou do 24k vs selenes 15k when it gets the 41% chancce in three.

Obviously if you have just one more effect going like a dot, selenes compares worse.

Thanks for writing this up
This is also the approach I would use as a prime factor to compare damage proc sets vs conventional stacking sets.

Compare the sustainable higher DPS of conventional builds with the average DPS + sudden burst of damage proc sets.

IF all the damage proc sets would be well balanced, it should deliver something like:
The bursty proc sets (A)to be the scissor in the scissor vs paper if the opponent (B) is low effective health pool / shield & high sustainable DPS.
The bursty proc set to be the scissor in the scissor vs stone if the opponent (C) is a balance of a more solid build (health /shield) & respectable sustainable DPS. (the health/shield being big enough to absorb the burst, without becoming a cheesy wet noodle build).
For example in simplified made up numbers:
A: 8k average DPS with a 12k burst and a health of 27k.
B: 12k average DPS and a Health of 24.
C: 10k average DPS and a Health of 30k.
Something like this could work in PVP. The burst is compensated/balanced with the lower average DPS.
And yes I know there are group effects etc. The example is simplified.

Problem .....
Nobody would use the damage proc sets in PVE !!!
PVE is based on average DPS.... the highest average DPS possible.
The burst has no value and an average DPS of 80% of the conventional build is making such damage proc sets useless

=> PVE forces damage proc sets to have an average DPS that is very close comparable with conventional stacking sets.
The addition of them being usefull when you select the proper set combination for a certain boss fight, giving a small but nice minmax boost to the time to burn down.
(Besides ofc the cool effect when playing easy-going fun)
and now they will "always" be OP in PVP, where the sudden burst is "on top" and very important.
If not to cause sudden death, then at least to get the full initiative, to get the opponent in the defense.

That's the dilemma I saw when pondering the last couple of weeks on the damage proc sets, reading so many posts about it.
And I did not see a both elegant as solid solution for it either.
But I really do like the cool proc sets/animations we have

anyway...
My 2 cents to the math

I don't know, I feel PROC sets comes with it's own weaknesses, it's balanced, where spell dmg sets are light, stams and med and tanks are heavy and focus on health, this is still a generic rule.
Besides this getting them in the traits you want is another ball game all together which is highly impropable, especially weapons
Im sure certain sets overpower certain proc sets, it makes it more interesting

Also wonder what about the people who don't care at all about PVP and purely PVE.
Maybe they can limit "Crafted" set for serious PVPing
whereas they could do a Crafted Or Proc for PVE. only solution I can think of

Have a new set bonus: 50% chance to reflect procs.

hrothbern wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Zamuro wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Hey guys, just want to let you know that we're exploring some solutions for the current situation with proc sets. When we have the details nailed down, we'll be sure to share them with you.

yea, nerf them to the ground or just delete them.... they should be a little bonuses to ur hero, not dealing more dmg than u... come on, my selene monster set deals 15k dmg and i cant hit with my hero for more than 8k... just without words... this game cant be played without ugly monster set

Selene procs 15% for 12k base at gold upped by crits and cp. Presumably you have adders to get thst consistently to 15k.

Somehow that same character only gets 8k hits? Wow. Thats like 6.5k before the same adders?

Unless you are running a defensive build and intentionally relying on selenes for dmg, those numbers seem inconsistent.

But to be clear... if you only make one attack per second (no dot, no weave, just one single 8k attack per second) you will score 32k in 4s vs selenes 15k.

That assumes the 15% procs always. If you assume most often it takes 3 attack to proc selenes (3 chances is likely to proc about 41%).

If you assume 4s cooldpwn andbproc on third attack - numbers become 48k you and 15k selenes.

Even if you just look at burst over 3s peyou do 24k vs selenes 15k when it gets the 41% chancce in three.

Obviously if you have just one more effect going like a dot, selenes compares worse.

Thanks for writing this up
This is also the approach I would use as a prime factor to compare damage proc sets vs conventional stacking sets.

Compare the sustainable higher DPS of conventional builds with the average DPS + sudden burst of damage proc sets.

IF all the damage proc sets would be well balanced, it should deliver something like:
The bursty proc sets (A)to be the scissor in the scissor vs paper if the opponent (B) is low effective health pool / shield & high sustainable DPS.
The bursty proc set to be the scissor in the scissor vs stone if the opponent (C) is a balance of a more solid build (health /shield) & respectable sustainable DPS. (the health/shield being big enough to absorb the burst, without becoming a cheesy wet noodle build).
For example in simplified made up numbers:
A: 8k average DPS with a 12k burst and a health of 27k.
B: 12k average DPS and a Health of 24.
C: 10k average DPS and a Health of 30k.
Something like this could work in PVP. The burst is compensated/balanced with the lower average DPS.
And yes I know there are group effects etc. The example is simplified.

Problem .....
Nobody would use the damage proc sets in PVE !!!
PVE is based on average DPS.... the highest average DPS possible.
The burst has no value and an average DPS of 80% of the conventional build is making such damage proc sets useless

=> PVE forces damage proc sets to have an average DPS that is very close comparable with conventional stacking sets.
The addition of them being usefull when you select the proper set combination for a certain boss fight, giving a small but nice minmax boost to the time to burn down.
(Besides ofc the cool effect when playing easy-going fun)
and now they will "always" be OP in PVP, where the sudden burst is "on top" and very important.
If not to cause sudden death, then at least to get the full initiative, to get the opponent in the defense.

That's the dilemma I saw when pondering the last couple of weeks on the damage proc sets, reading so many posts about it.
And I did not see a both elegant as solid solution for it either.
But I really do like the cool proc sets/animations we have

anyway...
My 2 cents to the math

First, i tend to agree.

Second, one of the issues i have with the ongoing and current zos design is for pve they tend to provide you with swiss army knives to construct characters but tend to make only the bottle opener (dps avg) all that you need in the vast vast majority of cases where damage is needed. I really wish they would have more diversity in challenges or at least mosre diversity in "damage" to an extent:
some where melee is really much harder to win with so melee procs like viper are no go
Some where you really really need strong AOE so proc sets like viper fail to succeed as much as the broader "up damage and spam large area aoe" or proc sets with big and potent aoes that dont measure up one-on-one but really do well in these types of challenges.
Some where the "vulnerability of the proc sets (usually lack of defense) leaves aggressive builds vulnerable to one shots esp at melee distance.
Some where the enemies use "steal and use resistance" type effects so hvy armor hurts you as a group.
etc etc etc...

Third, i for one am perfectly fine with proc sets being lower avg dps and that "resulting" in rather low wearing of those sets in the higher dps required PVE. Again, i think an error in planning (and in design if designed for) is a "one tool for every job" mentality. Rock-paper-scissors is a needed thing for any competitive construction" system. Right now, viper is like 7400 burst for 4s... thats not great dps boost in pve. Might terror likely does you better flat out and works even on defense but its burst is less.. If you run the heavy crit bonus - crit dmg likely does you better. Penetration against end game toughies - yep - and it also allows you to use a bit of hvy without losing pen that much.

I would be fine with seeing some proc sets be bursty, some dps-avg-sustainy, some healthy (baharas curse and trinimc are good examples of mixed) etc and let the users pick the ones they need for a given task.

right now it seems the burst levels can be brought high enough to make the old meta of max damage with "all medium" or "all light" or the 5-1-1 versions of those to become risky and vulnerable to bursty. Given those builds have likely a significant edge in AVG DPS and so if they survive the burst things can shift in their favor, i personally dont see that as a problem.

But in like 6-9 months we have gone from:
Damage meta light/med only or 5-1-1 and no hvy
to
Still OK for the lt/med but also hvy-tanky-dps now is Ok too
to
hvy-tanky-dps is ok and bursty-proc can sometimes kill lt/med DPS-avg 5-1-1 before the old can overwhelm.

I get why the " i want to wear 7 medium" crowd is upset, their old meta answer is no longer necessarily top dog.

But it also seems they are upset at different people winning.

Goes back to:
How i used to kill things = (insert synonym for good)
How new guys are killing me = (insert synonym for evil)

And typically ZOS does respond to those... pendulum swings back and forth to and fro.

Which is fine.

But i do agree that the "best" solution is to have a more PVP-centric solution.

i think battle spirit adding a global proc cooldown that limits the number of procs in any given time frame or make all proc cooldowns universal so that viper's 4s cooldown would also stop velidreth or tremorscale. This would curb the "multiple procs at once" issue.

But of course, it should apply to ALL procs - damage, healing, resistance etc.

I mean, again, i come back to the real problem being "proc sets under discussion show their damage as separate on the recap.

Consider: NMG and its 5s 2500 of resistance to the target has been "top dog should wear" blessed by the DPS singers forever at the top end, especially in solo or even group play.

Hit the boss with it and its what on any crit for 6s.

Now figure for a 4 man group assaulting a big boss for 12s period. That loss of mitigation affects and boosts every attack of physical nature from every source. thats one high crit character's 5pc bonus now affecting every physical damage attack whether ranged or not. Could even be inflicted at range.

What are the odds that this four man group manages to score as much damage from this mitigation crap over 12s than the 22k three viper procs would do?

The answer is "it varies" to be sure... but i dont recall seeing folks lining up to yell about NMG... which shows no damage on the recap - but in fact its 5pc bonus likely is responsible for more damage quite a bit of the time than a single viper burping three times would.

For every ~2% of damage the reduced mitigation lets thru, over 12s, they get about 25% increase in their DPS as a group. So if their group can put out just 90k dps between them (30k+30k+15k+15k - easy) NMG will start to beat viper.

But, nobody yelled... everybody thought it was good planning and skill for a group to have one guy's one proc add that damage to all their attacks with the mitigation reduction.

But if its listed as a separate damage item... thats not skill thats proc and proc be bad obvious know we all must not challenge the evilness of the proc.

.

So much hate for the proc sets. I've got my popcorn ready for when you people start whining in a few months that sets with basic stats and little diversity are boring and we want new sets.

Easy fix: All set-based damage procs have a shards internal cd. Fixed, barely touches pve