Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

A channel is not a Dot because you have to maintain the channel, it is not applied an then left like an AOE Dot or Single target Dot. A channel is no more a Dot than repeatedly hitting with your weapon is a Dot. You are doing damage actively every tick, and you must maintain the channel to maintain the damage. The difference between a Channel and a non channel is that a Channeled ability can be interrupted(in most cases) to set the target off balance that is all.

Edit: the difference between a channel and a cast time ability is the channel begins doing damage immediately and maintains it until the end, a cast time ability does the damage after the cast time which can also be interrupted(in most cases).

a dot is an ability that does damage over time. hitting someone repeatedly with a light attack requires hitting a button multiple times. a damage over time ability is a single ability, hit once, which does, well, damage over time. (aka a dot).

a channeled ability is a single click ability that does damage over time. not an ability that requires it to be hit multiple times to do damage. a channeled attack is effectively a damage over time ability or a dot ability

an instant cast damage over time ability such as poison injection is another type of damage over time ability.

I don't know why you brought in cast time abilities into the conversation.

No.

A channel is not a DoT because it is not an applied effect but an continual "Channel"(cast). A channel is termed a channel precisely because it differ's from a traditional DoT.

Yes DoT's refer to "damage over time" but that in no way means that all abilities that cause damage over a period of time are "DoT".

This is MMORPG 101 and very basic stuff. A channel must be maintained, you are not applying 40k damage to a target or target area over 10 seconds as a "Dot" would, you are "Channeling" damage towards a target or target area.

A channel can be interrupted or canceled and must be maintained, a Dot can simply be applied and left, a Dot must be purged while a channel must be interrupted. They really are two very distinct things.

A channel is akin to a macro, you are only using one click to do a series of attacks that can be canceled or interrupted.

Yes a Channel does damage over time, no it is not a "DoT".

dot became and acronym for an ability that does damage over time. an ability that does damage over time is an ability that is used once and deals damage for an extended period of time or tick damage. that is English class 101. taking the meaning of words and you know applying the meaning of those words to the written words.

sure it is not a traditional damage over time ability, but dots come in different types. there are ground aoe dots such a as caltrops. there are aoe dots that need only be applied to the target unlike caltrops. there are your traditional dots such as crippling grasp. there are also dot abilities that require a channel such as soul assualt.

you want to fit dots into one type when their are numerous. by your logic the temp healing ult is not a hot ability because it requires a channel. that is ridiculous.

dots come in all different shapes and sizes and require different actions to remove them. a traditional DoT can be purged for instance. ground aoe like Caltrops or aoe like I abs require the opposing player to leave the immediate area. dot that is channeled can be purged or interrupted.

saying a channel is an ability that does damage over time but not a Dot is simply illogical. dot literally means damage over time.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The famous "moar dots" video is not asking for players to attack targets, it is asking for players to apply damage over time effects that will kill the targets but allow the player to do otherthings in the mean time.

Dot damage in MMO's is designed to come on the back end of combat as opposed to the front end or directly, Dots are designed to lack burst until you stack up several. A channel does not allow you to do this as you are channeling, and thus unable to add more dots or light/heavy attacks.

lmao. "the video is not asking for players to attack targets, it is asking players to apply damage over time." Dot ability are attacks so if you are asking someone to apply a dot then you are asking them to attack.

ya sounds like the video is asking for people to apply specific types of dots. what would be considered traditional dots. a dot that allows you to perform other abilities while it ticks. sure I get that. that does not make an ability that is channeled any less of a dot. it simply emphasizes the difference between two types of dots.

again, your speaking in terms of traditional dots without taking into considerations other types of dots.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The argument that "DOTs are damage over time thus channels are DOTs" is akin to saying: "spells do damage and have special effects thus poisons are spells". It is taking a very simplistic basic explanation and applying in broad strokes that do not accurately describe the issue.

What you state here makes no sense. first, channels that do damage over time is a dot, but not all channels are dots as mentioned above. so I did not equate all channels to dot. and yes I absolutely would call any ability that does damage over time a dot because that is literally the plain meaning of the acronym. second, the comparison and conclusion you came up with in your example is far from what I did.

put simply, I took the narrow subject of dots a separated them into types of dots. your comparison is overally broad. put another way, I compared apples to other types of apples and in the end they were still apples with different flavors. you took pears and compared it to an orange and then called the orange a pear simply because it is a fruit. you came to an illogical conclusion where mine follows a logical and reasoned path using the actual meaning of the language used.

in the end you understand dots based on the traditional type of dot without understanding that there are more types of dots. damage over time means exactly that. some channels to damage over time and thus would be a type of dot.

last, the channeled abilities such as puncturing sweeps, soul assualt, Rd are all effected by the champ tree to increase dot damage. the game inherently labels these abilities as dots and rightly so.

CVS: Consumer Value Stores..... Does this mean a consumer values particular stores? If a particular consumer happens to value particular stores or no particular stores, is that person now a CVS?

A&W Root-beer: Is this literally Allen and Wrights root-beer? Or does it represent maybe a particular product?

JCPenney: James Cash Penney...Obviously the store is literally a person...Or multiple persons...

Why aren't "3D" movies actually 3 dimensional, I mean that's what it says right, shouldn't it be basically a play?

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

dot became and acronym for an ability that does damage over time. an ability that does damage over time is an ability that is used once and deals damage for an extended period of time or tick damage. that is English class 101. taking the meaning of words and you know applying the meaning of those words to the written words.

sure it is not a traditional damage over time ability, but dots come in different types. there are ground aoe dots such a as caltrops. there are aoe dots that need only be applied to the target unlike caltrops. there are your traditional dots such as crippling grasp. there are also dot abilities that require a channel such as soul assualt.

you want to fit dots into one type when their are numerous. by your logic the temp healing ult is not a hot ability because it requires a channel. that is ridiculous.

dots come in all different shapes and sizes and require different actions to remove them. a traditional DoT can be purged for instance. ground aoe like Caltrops or aoe like I abs require the opposing player to leave the immediate area. dot that is channeled can be purged or interrupted.

saying a channel is an ability that does damage over time but not a Dot is simply illogical. dot literally means damage over time.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

lmao. "the video is not asking for players to attack targets, it is asking players to apply damage over time." Dot ability are attacks so if you are asking someone to apply a dot then you are asking them to attack.

ya sounds like the video is asking for people to apply specific types of dots. what would be considered traditional dots. a dot that allows you to perform other abilities while it ticks. sure I get that. that does not make an ability that is channeled any less of a dot. it simply emphasizes the difference between two types of dots.

again, your speaking in terms of traditional dots without taking into considerations other types of dots.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

What you state here makes no sense. first, channels that do damage over time is a dot, but not all channels are dots as mentioned above. so I did not equate all channels to dot. and yes I absolutely would call any ability that does damage over time a dot because that is literally the plain meaning of the acronym. second, the comparison and conclusion you came up with in your example is far from what I did.

You should at least attempt to capitalize paragraphs, perhaps even sentences, before attempting to claim anything about English.

Acronyms are either nouns, or verbs such as "to make an acronym of", acronyms are not simply short hand. BLM is not based around nor does it stand for the simple literal meaning of "Black Lives Matter" which no one argues with, but rather the issue that Blacks are being killed more often by police.

In the same way the term DOT has a meaning beyond a literal spelling out of words. DOT does not mean simply "you don't have to click more than once", otherwise every Macro in existence is a DOT and does DOT damage. Look I've made a macro to snipe 4 times in a row with one click so now I can do more DOT damage right?

DOT as a term for MMO's describes damage that is applied and then left while the attacker does other things. It is in essence a health debuff over a period of time. If you have to channel to maintain that damage which prevents you from applying "MOAR DOTS" then you are no longer applying a DOT but rather are channeling an attack.

DOT as a term do not stop dealing damage because you stopped dealing damage, they continue to deal damage despite the fact that you stopped.

And no my analogy is quite correct, you attempted to explain a term you do not understand by giving a literal reading. There is no further use explaining it any more, Channels are not DOTs they do deal damage over time just like anything else that you continue to use to attack, they are affected by champion points directed at damage over time that does not in any way make them "DOTS".

BLM is an initialism not an acronym. Also, it does stand for the literal meaning of "black lives matter." Additionally, that phrase is attached to a movement hat is quite literally about black live mattering. regardless, you again use an analogy that is not relevant.

Acronyms are almost exclusively used as a noun. The fact that you found one website that gives you a verb form which is the fourth use of the term on the website is merely you reaching for a definition that suits your argument. Used as a verb is very rare and not appropriate in this scenario. DOT was an acronym created to shorten a phrase. DOT came as an abbreviated way to say damage over time. Damage over time does not all of a sudden lose its literal meaning because someone used the acronym DOT.

Again, DOT come in different types. Most are the type you speak of but not all. Channeling an ability that ticks for damage is fundamentally applying a dot. it is merely a different type.

As for your macro example, the definition of DOT would not include a macro. A macro is a way to get around the design of a game by making you do something that was never intended within the games mechanics. Simply b/c a player as made something one button does not mean it changes what something is classified as. The game requires for a player to activate an ability such as snipe multiple times to get mutiple damage. A macro does not negate this process. A macro simply makes it so computer software activates that ability multiple times. Therefore, no it is not DOT damage.

I gave it a literal reading because it is supposed to have a literal meaning. Simply because you attach the idea of a traditional dot to the meaning does not make it the meaning. You stated, "channels are not DOTs they do deal damage over time just like anything else that you continue to use to attack." I am assuming when you say "like anything else" you are refering to other damage abilities such as suprise attack. However, this is false. it operates diffently because unlike your spamable dps abilities it you know has damage ticks aka does damage over time. again, which is a phrase that was given the acronym DOT to shorten the phrase, not to change what it means and it means quite literally what it says.

As for my writing format and structure, i am on my phone so no going to edit my posts for little grammatical errors. Will only edit when it is to clarify what I am saying.

You stated, "they (damaging channels) are affected by champion points directed at damage over time that does not in any way make them 'DOTS.'" I mean his sentence is laughable. The champ star increase damage of damage over time abilities. damage channels are can increase damage of this star. Using the canons of construction, one can very easily conclude that zos considers these abilities to be damage over time. Again, DOT is merely what is used to replace the phrase damage over time as a shorthand. It does not change the meaning of the phrase. Thus, zos considers channel damage abilities to be a DOT which can be cloaked. The reason it does not continue to tick after cloak is because this particular type of DOT requires a constant and unbroken connection to another player unlike other traditional dots you are speaking of.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

CVS: Consumer Value Stores..... Does this mean a consumer values particular stores? If a particular consumer happens to value particular stores or no particular stores, is that person now a CVS?

A&W Root-beer: Is this literally Allen and Wrights root-beer? Or does it represent maybe a particular product?

JCPenney: James Cash Penney...Obviously the store is literally a person...Or multiple persons...

Why aren't "3D" movies actually 3 dimensional, I mean that's what it says right, shouldn't it be basically a play?

again, initialism. Here we are talking about products or a company not the shortening of a phrase such as AWOL (absent without official leave). Absent without official leave does not all of a sudden mean something different then its literal meaning because I say AWOL. Same goes for DOT. DOT is the shortening of a phrase not a company or product.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

The Templar healing ultimate is not a HOT as it is not applied and then left. You have to maintain a channel to keep healing, you are actively healing each second by channeling, it does not continue to heal for a period of time after you cease channeling thus it is not a HOT.

Channeling is virtually the same as casting, with the exception that you are constantly healing/dealing damage versus the damage coming at the end of the cast. Both can generally be interrupted, both require you to be alive to continue their effects.

HOT comes from the phrase healing over time. Templar ult requires one activation and it heals over time. Thus, it is a HOT.

Bakven wrote: »

Honestly kinda surprised that cloak itself isn't an ultimate. switch it with soul harvest and make it last 10 seconds unbreakable (because it is an ultimate) would mean playing NB a bit more strategically imo.

And for those that think soul harvest would be a horrible skill because you can spam it. reduce it's damage since it would no longer be an ultimate and have it as an expensive skill.

This is one of the worst ideas I've ever seen on this forum.
Sorry but it honestly is.

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

You stated, "they (damaging channels) are affected by champion points directed at damage over time that does not in any way make them 'DOTS.'" I mean his sentence is laughable. The champ star increase damage of damage over time abilities. damage channels are can increase damage of this star. Using the canons of construction, one can very easily conclude that zos considers these abilities to be damage over time. Again, DOT is merely what is used to replace the phrase damage over time as a shorthand. It does not change the meaning of the phrase. Thus, zos considers channel damage abilities to be a DOT which can be cloaked. The reason it does not continue to tick after cloak is because this particular type of DOT requires a constant and unbroken connection to another player unlike other traditional dots you are speaking of.

Using a flurry(which is a channel) with maelstrom daggers (which boosts the damage of the next single-target damage over time ability) does not boost the next flurry. Thus, flurry in this case is not considered a DOT by ZOS, despite being a channel.

This shows that ZOS differentiates between channels and DOTs, both being considered a separate category.

Not really. The enchantment data specifically omits Flurry itself from the buff list. vMA daggers buff Soul Assault, which is a channel.

And BTW, hardly anybody better gets why Soul Assault gets stopped by cloak. It is not because of the DoT. All single target channels require a clear line of sight. Cloak breaks the line of sight momentarily upon activation breaking all channels and causing ranged attacks to miss. Soul Assault is no exception.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

You stated, "they (damaging channels) are affected by champion points directed at damage over time that does not in any way make them 'DOTS.'" I mean his sentence is laughable. The champ star increase damage of damage over time abilities. damage channels are can increase damage of this star. Using the canons of construction, one can very easily conclude that zos considers these abilities to be damage over time. Again, DOT is merely what is used to replace the phrase damage over time as a shorthand. It does not change the meaning of the phrase. Thus, zos considers channel damage abilities to be a DOT which can be cloaked. The reason it does not continue to tick after cloak is because this particular type of DOT requires a constant and unbroken connection to another player unlike other traditional dots you are speaking of.

Using a flurry(which is a channel) with maelstrom daggers (which boosts the damage of the next single-target damage over time ability) does not boost the next flurry. Thus, flurry in this case is not considered a DOT by ZOS, despite being a channel.

This shows that ZOS differentiates between channels and DOTs, both being considered a separate category.

I would call flurry the exception.not the rule. afterall, the daggers do boost soul assualt which is a channel and does damage over time. it is also the topic of conversation. if anything, this shows even more that soul assualthough is a dot which is also a channel.

Oh i'm not saying it's the rule. Just pointing out that there *is* a difference between a channel and a DOT, from ZOS point of view. Whether a particular mechanic is considered a channel or DOT in certain situation is decided by ZOS on a case by case basis, so we should not make generalized conclusions like "X is a DOT and DOTS work like this, which means X is supposed to work like this as well."

What you want would require cloak to no longer work. Cloaks main effect is to break sight for 3 seconds. You can reveal them out of cloak. You could use magelight or hunter to prevent a recloak but you want to have a channelling DOT ability preventing a cloak. Should it stun them too? That's brainless gameplay.

Besides it's an awful ultimate anyway.

I still can't find anything official that would
1. Define what a damage over time ability is, provided by ZoS - plenty from other sources
2. Say or imply channels cannot be a DOT
3. Channels cannot activate DoT based abilities

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

You stated, "they (damaging channels) are affected by champion points directed at damage over time that does not in any way make them 'DOTS.'" I mean his sentence is laughable. The champ star increase damage of damage over time abilities. damage channels are can increase damage of this star. Using the canons of construction, one can very easily conclude that zos considers these abilities to be damage over time. Again, DOT is merely what is used to replace the phrase damage over time as a shorthand. It does not change the meaning of the phrase. Thus, zos considers channel damage abilities to be a DOT which can be cloaked. The reason it does not continue to tick after cloak is because this particular type of DOT requires a constant and unbroken connection to another player unlike other traditional dots you are speaking of.

Using a flurry(which is a channel) with maelstrom daggers (which boosts the damage of the next single-target damage over time ability) does not boost the next flurry. Thus, flurry in this case is not considered a DOT by ZOS, despite being a channel.

This shows that ZOS differentiates between channels and DOTs, both being considered a separate category.

I would call flurry the exception.not the rule. afterall, the daggers do boost soul assualt which is a channel and does damage over time. it is also the topic of conversation. if anything, this shows even more that soul assualthough is a dot which is also a channel.

Oh i'm not saying it's the rule. Just pointing out that there *is* a difference between a channel and a DOT, from ZOS point of view. Whether a particular mechanic is considered a channel or DOT in certain situation is decided by ZOS on a case by case basis, so we should not make generalized conclusions like "X is a DOT and DOTS work like this, which means X is supposed to work like this as well."

Using that logic we cannot use any other move or ability interactions as evidence of any other case. Thus any evidence claiming a DoT cannot be a channel, again is pure speculation as any other occurrences of this kind of interaction cannot be used as evidence.

I know an AoE can be AoE and DoT, I know there can be single target damage over time effects too. So clearly definitions of what an ability is or isn't overlap. I know Mines and Curse were once considered dots,by the game, but was later changed because it only did damage once and had a timer. Before anything that did damage and had a timer was considered a dot (including channels)

I know Rune Prison considers Flurry a DOT and I know it's considered a channel, is this limited to flurry? I dunno, but it show to me that a channel and dot can co exist.

Are all channels DOTs? No, Are all DoTs channels? No, can. Channel be a DOT? I really don't see why not. Even if channels are treated "differently" through mechanics or whatever, I still think they trigger any ability that needs a "damage over time" ability to trigger it.

Attacks like searing strike, burning breath, elemental status effects (poison, burning etc) are clear-cut DOTS.

1. They are cast and forget. Ie: once u apply your DOT, you are free to follow up with other attacks while your DOT continues to tick on the enemy (if not purged).
2. These abilities only require a clear LOS during the instantaneous cast (same as your insta-cast up front damage abilities).
3. These abilities do low consistent damage over a set period of time.

Attacks such as proxy det, jabs, mage's wrath explosion (ie execute) etc are delayed damage over time effects. Some of these abilities are also counted as DOTs altho not all of them are. Although these abilities have their own mechanics, they have a few things in common.

1. They do not require a clear LOS to target as these abilities are NOT targeted. Mages wrath only needs clear LOS on initial cast. Your target is free to run behind a tree or rock but will still get pwnzor-ed by the follow up explosion if their health drops low.

2. Some of these abilities such as jabs are supposedly buffed by thamaturge (as jab is similar to rapid strikes in the sense that its a DOT as well as a channel) while proxy and curse are clearly NOT channels. Proxy has a cast time but lets u follow up with anything else once that is done functioning similar to a DOT that does all its damage in the end. (its delayed damage not counted towards thamaturge.) Same goes for curse.

3. Some of these abilities require a target and some do not. Proxy does not while curse does. Jabs does not while rapid strikes does. Abilities that require LOS are broken or stop doing damage. Ie; proxy will keep ticking and explode in a radius regardless of whether your target is behind a rock or not. Jabs will still keep poking long after your target has rolled behind you. However, curse, mages wrath etc cannot be cast until you have direct LOS. Once cast, they will tick until they are purged.

4. These abilities unlike category 1, really hurt most of the time. Proxy hurts. Eating jabs hurts. Eating RS hurts. Curse and mages wrath dont really hurt as they arent channels but insta-cast delay damage abilities that can be comboed with other burst abilities to make them hurt.

Now coming to soul assault. Its clearly a channel as you char is stuck while casting it. It is clearly a damage over time effect that REQUIRES LOS as it is targeted. It does pretty sick damage even though its a DOT. Hence, by looking at the abilities described above, it will be broken when LOS is lost. What is the surprise here? How does it make sense to keep beaming a target who has long disappeared from LOS.

Stratforge wrote: »

I'm gonna print this thread out and make it into a coffee table book.

Lol.

Again zos can we get that button back

I actually like it how Zenimax doesnt explain every single detail about skills. It gives value to theorycrafting