Cloak is purging soul assault completely

Cathexis

Well soul assault has a crazy low casting cost... And I mean, you can just block soul assault. I think defensive counters with ultimates have president, its just offensive counters like the standard set for unreflectable meteors that causes an issue for me with ult counters..

..My bigger beef is that ultimates like soul assault and overload heavy attack can be interupted. Especially overload heavy attack.

Not only that but certain channeled ultimates cant be interupted (for example the aoe templar heal where it looks like they are praying).

leepalmer95

Templar can do the same thing via purge, they purge the dot.

You run around a corner and break line of sight the beam breaks, cloak doesn't stop the dot, it breaks line of sight.

Soul assault goes through dodge roll, just use a cc or something first.


X damage per second for X seconds is a dot
X damage OVER x seconds is a channel.

bowmanz607

Cathexis wrote: »

Well soul assault has a crazy low casting cost... And I mean, you can just block soul assault. I think defensive counters with ultimates have president, its just offensive counters like the standard set for unreflectable meteors that causes an issue for me with ult counters..

..My bigger beef is that ultimates like soul assault and overload heavy attack can be interupted. Especially overload heavy attack.

Not only that but certain channeled ultimates cant be interupted (for example the aoe templar heal where it looks like they are praying).

temp heal ultimate can not be interrupted.

Dojohoda

That's how it is with soul assault and it's not only cloak that can stop the beam. I stopped using the ultimate shortly after trying it out last year because of how easily it could be wasted.

leepalmer95

Cathexis wrote: »

Well soul assault has a crazy low casting cost... And I mean, you can just block soul assault. I think defensive counters with ultimates have president, its just offensive counters like the standard set for unreflectable meteors that causes an issue for me with ult counters..

..My bigger beef is that ultimates like soul assault and overload heavy attack can be interupted. Especially overload heavy attack.

Not only that but certain channeled ultimates cant be interupted (for example the aoe templar heal where it looks like they are praying).

The templar heal ult they literally stand still and can't exit it, there an easy target...

Who uses overload heavy?

If your gonna use soul assault don't use it when someone is next to you, cc them and then use it. That way you'll atleast get 1-2 ticks.

If they purge, cloak, LoS or interupt it, well thats just how it is, it's a strong cheap ult.

Cathexis

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Well soul assault has a crazy low casting cost... And I mean, you can just block soul assault. I think defensive counters with ultimates have president, its just offensive counters like the standard set for unreflectable meteors that causes an issue for me with ult counters..

..My bigger beef is that ultimates like soul assault and overload heavy attack can be interupted. Especially overload heavy attack.

Not only that but certain channeled ultimates cant be interupted (for example the aoe templar heal where it looks like they are praying).

The templar heal ult they literally stand still and can't exit it, there an easy target...

Who uses overload heavy?

If your gonna use soul assault don't use it when someone is next to you, cc them and then use it. That way you'll atleast get 1-2 ticks.

If they purge, cloak, LoS or interupt it, well thats just how it is, it's a strong cheap ult.

The thing about the temp heal ult is that it is best suited to group utility, so while they are busy being an ever healing easy target, the rest of the team is going beast mode.

Overload heavy you walk around and cant cast anything else it is almost the exact same, except you also arent healing. And you sort of made my point - no one uses it overload heavy largely because its unusable; making it uninterruptible goes a long way toward making it useful.

Also there are better ways to run soul assault, but you are right that cc is a great way to make it work well. Honestly, I run soul assault more for the novelty of blasting *** to pieces with a giant lazer than because I think its the best option as an ult. Generally I agree with you about soul assault. Its cheap, its fun, and it will toast the average noober. I just also think that if some channel ults are uninterruptible, they all should be. Anything else is a double standard.

juhasman

Ankael07 wrote: »

Cloak isnt suppose to remove anything but endure the dot damage to 100% reduction.

And 100% reduction of chanelled skil = breaking the channel. Sould assault is a single target DoT and and DoT's cannot hit You while You're in cloak. Cloak was always removed that ulti from nb, previously when cloak was purging DoT's and nw when it reduces Dot'S dmg by 100%. What I am doing is using detect pot when i have ulti charged.

Cathexis

juhasman wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Cloak isnt suppose to remove anything but endure the dot damage to 100% reduction.

And 100% reduction of chanelled skil = breaking the channel. Sould assault is a single target DoT and and DoT's cannot hit You while You're in cloak. Cloak was always removed that ulti from nb, previously when cloak was purging DoT's and nw when it reduces Dot'S dmg by 100%. What I am doing is using detect pot when i have ulti charged.

Im not sure on about the new cloak/dot redux so forgive me if im wrong - I was under the impression that if cloak breaks but you have a dot on you, the damage continues.

Cancelling soul assault all together would therefor go against that idea.

But I understand I could be way off base with that one. But if thats the case then it should be revealing a nightblades location and also potentially snaring the target for the duration, not just breaking.

100% dmg redux =\= breaking a channel

kadar

Ankael07 wrote: »

Tested this with a friendly nightblade and each time he cloaked my soul assault would be purged off. Sometimes I couldnt even have the first tick land on him and I would still lose my ulti.

Working as intended. +1 for ZOS.

Bakven

Honestly kinda surprised that cloak itself isn't an ultimate. switch it with soul harvest and make it last 10 seconds unbreakable (because it is an ultimate) would mean playing NB a bit more strategically imo.

And for those that think soul harvest would be a horrible skill because you can spam it. reduce it's damage since it would no longer be an ultimate and have it as an expensive skill.

leepalmer95

Bakven wrote: »

Honestly kinda surprised that cloak itself isn't an ultimate. switch it with soul harvest and make it last 10 seconds unbreakable (because it is an ultimate) would mean playing NB a bit more strategically imo.

And for those that think soul harvest would be a horrible skill because you can spam it. reduce it's damage since it would no longer be an ultimate and have it as an expensive skill.

They have concealed why soul harvest? An unbreakable 10s cloak

Literally the worst idea i've ever seen on this forum, grats

Bakven

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bakven wrote: »

Honestly kinda surprised that cloak itself isn't an ultimate. switch it with soul harvest and make it last 10 seconds unbreakable (because it is an ultimate) would mean playing NB a bit more strategically imo.

And for those that think soul harvest would be a horrible skill because you can spam it. reduce it's damage since it would no longer be an ultimate and have it as an expensive skill.

They have concealed why soul harvest? An unbreakable 10s cloak

Literally the worst idea i've ever seen on this forum, grats

Dragonknights have an ultimate that allows them to completely ignore damage for 10 seconds while they can still attack. Sorcerers have an ultimate that can literally stop all magicka builds from attacking while they're in the aoe while they can still do damage
Templars have an ultimate that can heal them and their allies, become immune to cc, and allow reduce damage to them and their allies
So tell me again how a 10s cloak ultimate would be op?

leepalmer95

Bakven wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Bakven wrote: »

Honestly kinda surprised that cloak itself isn't an ultimate. switch it with soul harvest and make it last 10 seconds unbreakable (because it is an ultimate) would mean playing NB a bit more strategically imo.

And for those that think soul harvest would be a horrible skill because you can spam it. reduce it's damage since it would no longer be an ultimate and have it as an expensive skill.

They have concealed why soul harvest? An unbreakable 10s cloak

Literally the worst idea i've ever seen on this forum, grats

Dragonknights have an ultimate that allows them to completely ignore damage for 10 seconds while they can still attack. Sorcerers have an ultimate that can literally stop all magicka builds from attacking while they're in the aoe while they can still do damage
Templars have an ultimate that can heal them and their allies, become immune to cc, and allow reduce damage to them and their allies
So tell me again how a 10s cloak ultimate would be op?

Because an unbreakable cloak would be OP as ***, literally unfindable, can they attack?

The dk ult caps dmg at 3% not unkillable, Costs 200.

Templar ult heals and reduces damage yes, it also makes them stationary and they become a big easy target.

Sorc have negate yes, it's also 200 ult and easy to get out of.

Nb's have tether, aoe huge damage with a hot/dot.. why do you they need a stupidly strong cloak ult?

Ankael07

''CC them then cast ulti'' doesnt work on any half decent nightblade out there.They'll just break free then cloak.. only taking the first tick. Hell even the newbies have cloak as their emergency skill where they spam it in a moment of need.

bowmanz607

Cathexis wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Cloak isnt suppose to remove anything but endure the dot damage to 100% reduction.

And 100% reduction of chanelled skil = breaking the channel. Sould assault is a single target DoT and and DoT's cannot hit You while You're in cloak. Cloak was always removed that ulti from nb, previously when cloak was purging DoT's and nw when it reduces Dot'S dmg by 100%. What I am doing is using detect pot when i have ulti charged.

Im not sure on about the new cloak/dot redux so forgive me if im wrong - I was under the impression that if cloak breaks but you have a dot on you, the damage continues.

Cancelling soul assault all together would therefor go against that idea.

But I understand I could be way off base with that one. But if thats the case then it should be revealing a nightblades location and also potentially snaring the target for the duration, not just breaking.

100% dmg redux =\= breaking a channel

see comment number 31

Bakven wrote: »

Honestly kinda surprised that cloak itself isn't an ultimate. switch it with soul harvest and make it last 10 seconds unbreakable (because it is an ultimate) would mean playing NB a bit more strategically imo.

And for those that think soul harvest would be a horrible skill because you can spam it. reduce it's damage since it would no longer be an ultimate and have it as an expensive skill.

that doesn't even make sense.

Bakven

@leepalmer95 my main is a magblade and I can honestly perma cloak and still be able to attack players and kill them without pulling me out of cloak all that much. This would keep people from being able to do that since so many people complain about cloak. So let's say it cost 200 ult, how would that be bad? it's expensive enough that people couldn't spam it and stay perma cloaked. It is an ultimate so it's supposed to be a powerful skill. As for you complaining about soul tether, it doesn't hit for nearly as much as soul harvest or incap strike yet cost 3x as much, not to mention it's only a hot/dot if people stay tethered to you. Most decent people will put enough distance, which is something like 10 meters, and break it. At most you'd get maybe 1 or 2 ticks and is only really effective as a zerg bomber.

leepalmer95

Bakven wrote: »

@leepalmer95 my main is a magblade and I can honestly perma cloak and still be able to attack players and kill them without pulling me out of cloak all that much. This would keep people from being able to do that since so many people complain about cloak. So let's say it cost 200 ult, how would that be bad? it's expensive enough that people couldn't spam it and stay perma cloaked. It is an ultimate so it's supposed to be a powerful skill. As for you complaining about soul tether, it doesn't hit for nearly as much as soul harvest or incap strike yet cost 3x as much, not to mention it's only a hot/dot if people stay tethered to you. Most decent people will put enough distance, which is something like 10 meters, and break it. At most you'd get maybe 1 or 2 ticks and is only really effective as a zerg bomber.

Because tether is aoe has a dot and a hot?

bowmanz607

Bakven wrote: »

@leepalmer95 my main is a magblade and I can honestly perma cloak and still be able to attack players and kill them without pulling me out of cloak all that much. This would keep people from being able to do that since so many people complain about cloak. So let's say it cost 200 ult, how would that be bad? it's expensive enough that people couldn't spam it and stay perma cloaked. It is an ultimate so it's supposed to be a powerful skill. As for you complaining about soul tether, it doesn't hit for nearly as much as soul harvest or incap strike yet cost 3x as much, not to mention it's only a hot/dot if people stay tethered to you. Most decent people will put enough distance, which is something like 10 meters, and break it. At most you'd get maybe 1 or 2 ticks and is only really effective as a zerg bomber.

people can complain about cloak all they want. it is l2p issue. dozens of counters to it. if they can't figure it out its on them. your suggestion of making it an ultrasound is just bad.

Bakven

@bowmanz607 I agree cloak isn't that hard to break. It's honestly so easy I've stopped running it. but I know many people who still do and you still have people calling for its nerf. This was a suggestion to stop people from complaining about it. and instead of just saying it's a bad idea why not come up with something constructive?

bowmanz607

Bakven wrote: »

@bowmanz607 I agree cloak isn't that hard to break. It's honestly so easy I've stopped running it. but I know many people who still do and you still have people calling for its nerf. This was a suggestion to stop people from complaining about it. and instead of just saying it's a bad idea why not come up with something constructive?

I have not seen nerf cloak threads in awhile. again, cloak is fine as is and there is no reason to change it. the people complain about it still need to figure it out cause it is easy to counter.

it is a bad idea because it is the identity and theme of a nb to use the shadows at their disposal to strIke hard. your suggestion makes it less of an identity and make the theme of a nb very situational. being able to enter cloak once every 200 ultimate gen practically makes it useless. you also propose taking a utility ability and making it an ult while taking a damage ultimate and making it a dps ability. nb already having enough options for main dps. making another is redundant.

overall, you are attempting to take the identity of a nb and throw it out the window because some complainers can not l2p. Further, this is a thread about a specific ability and how it interacts with cloak. this was thought to be a bug by the OP. this was not a nerf cloak thread. your addition to the conversation about taking cloak away from nb (which is practically what you suggested) has little to no bearing in the thread. this is more so the reason why I never expanded on my previous post.

as for something constructive for the thread...

this ability is working as intended as I explained in comment 31.

Cathexis

bowmanz607 wrote: »

it is a dot so it gets purged. a channel can be a dot. it is damage over time. soul assualt gives you damage over time. plus, it is boosted by the dot champ star. it is a dot.

other dots operate by being casted and sitting on the player for the dot to tick. soul assualt requires the channel to keep the dot up. since cloak suppresses dots it purges it. it operates differently than other dots because you have broken the channel by suppressing the dot. (after all does not make much since to suppress it but still having it channel on you until you are out of cloak.). other dots are suppressed but stay because it was an instant cast ability that stuck to the player. not a beam of light.

this is not a bug. working as intended

Im curious as to why a beam of energy couldnt still hit a cloaked target.

Being cloaked doesnt make you immune to being hit by things. Being invisible =/= being invincible, especially if said magical energy beam is already locked on to you. I mean, its a magical beam. An ultimate magical beam. Its not very ultimate if you can just disappear when you are being hit by it and suffer no negative effects. I mean if you are going to use logic to justify it in the first place, being invisible shouldnt protect you from being poisoned or cursed. You cant use aesthetic logic to justify an exception in a flawed game mechanic, using an aesthetically flawed game mechanic. Thats false logic and a double standard.

Fortunate for you, Im not making the argument that it should break cloak, just adhere to the same standards as normal dots.

bowmanz607

Cathexis wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

it is a dot so it gets purged. a channel can be a dot. it is damage over time. soul assualt gives you damage over time. plus, it is boosted by the dot champ star. it is a dot.

other dots operate by being casted and sitting on the player for the dot to tick. soul assualt requires the channel to keep the dot up. since cloak suppresses dots it purges it. it operates differently than other dots because you have broken the channel by suppressing the dot. (after all does not make much since to suppress it but still having it channel on you until you are out of cloak.). other dots are suppressed but stay because it was an instant cast ability that stuck to the player. not a beam of light.

this is not a bug. working as intended

Im curious as to why a beam of energy couldnt still hit a cloaked target.

Being cloaked doesnt make you immune to being hit by things. Being invisible =/= being invincible, especially if said magical energy beam is already locked on to you. I mean, its a magical beam. An ultimate magical beam. Its not very ultimate if you can just disappear when you are being hit by it and suffer no negative effects. I mean if you are going to use logic to justify it in the first place, being invisible shouldnt protect you from being poisoned or cursed. You cant use aesthetic logic to justify an exception in a flawed game mechanic, using an aesthetically flawed game mechanic. Thats false logic and a double standard.

Fortunate for you, Im not making the argument that it should break cloak, just adhere to the same standards as normal dots.

I am speaking from a technical sense. from a point of view of how the game mechanics operate. chanelled dots require a connection to another player and zero interruptions because it is a channel not and instant cast. unlike other dots which are instant casts and require not channeling to accomplish. the difference is not the aesthetics of the abilities but the fact that it is a channeled dot.

that is why it does not adhere to the same rules as other dots. it is fundamentally different.

Toc de Malsvi

A channel is not a Dot because you have to maintain the channel, it is not applied an then left like an AOE Dot or Single target Dot. A channel is no more a Dot than repeatedly hitting with your weapon is a Dot. You are doing damage actively every tick, and you must maintain the channel to maintain the damage. The difference between a Channel and a non channel is that a Channeled ability can be interrupted(in most cases) to set the target off balance that is all.

Edit: the difference between a channel and a cast time ability is the channel begins doing damage immediately and maintains it until the end, a cast time ability does the damage after the cast time which can also be interrupted(in most cases).

bowmanz607

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

A channel is not a Dot because you have to maintain the channel, it is not applied an then left like an AOE Dot or Single target Dot. A channel is no more a Dot than repeatedly hitting with your weapon is a Dot. You are doing damage actively every tick, and you must maintain the channel to maintain the damage. The difference between a Channel and a non channel is that a Channeled ability can be interrupted(in most cases) to set the target off balance that is all.

Edit: the difference between a channel and a cast time ability is the channel begins doing damage immediately and maintains it until the end, a cast time ability does the damage after the cast time which can also be interrupted(in most cases).

a dot is an ability that does damage over time. hitting someone repeatedly with a light attack requires hitting a button multiple times. a damage over time ability is a single ability, hit once, which does, well, damage over time. (aka a dot).

a channeled ability is a single click ability that does damage over time. not an ability that requires it to be hit multiple times to do damage. a channeled attack is effectively a damage over time ability or a dot ability

an instant cast damage over time ability such as poison injection is another type of damage over time ability.

I don't know why you brought in cast time abilities into the conversation.

FriedEggSandwich

Ashamray wrote: »

This is an Ultimate, it should not be removed by a simple skill like Purge or Cloak. There are already risk of interruption and it also can be blocked.
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Defensive rune will have the same effect; instantly breaking soul assault. It's a channel and they can be interrupted. Crushing shock or a bash would also interrupt it. This ultimate is best used on DKs imo, or just never at all.

Toc de Malsvi

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

A channel is not a Dot because you have to maintain the channel, it is not applied an then left like an AOE Dot or Single target Dot. A channel is no more a Dot than repeatedly hitting with your weapon is a Dot. You are doing damage actively every tick, and you must maintain the channel to maintain the damage. The difference between a Channel and a non channel is that a Channeled ability can be interrupted(in most cases) to set the target off balance that is all.

Edit: the difference between a channel and a cast time ability is the channel begins doing damage immediately and maintains it until the end, a cast time ability does the damage after the cast time which can also be interrupted(in most cases).

a dot is an ability that does damage over time. hitting someone repeatedly with a light attack requires hitting a button multiple times. a damage over time ability is a single ability, hit once, which does, well, damage over time. (aka a dot).

a channeled ability is a single click ability that does damage over time. not an ability that requires it to be hit multiple times to do damage. a channeled attack is effectively a damage over time ability or a dot ability

an instant cast damage over time ability such as poison injection is another type of damage over time ability.

I don't know why you brought in cast time abilities into the conversation.

No.

A channel is not a DoT because it is not an applied effect but an continual "Channel"(cast). A channel is termed a channel precisely because it differ's from a traditional DoT.

Yes DoT's refer to "damage over time" but that in no way means that all abilities that cause damage over a period of time are "DoT".

This is MMORPG 101 and very basic stuff. A channel must be maintained, you are not applying 40k damage to a target or target area over 10 seconds as a "Dot" would, you are "Channeling" damage towards a target or target area.

A channel can be interrupted or canceled and must be maintained, a Dot can simply be applied and left, a Dot must be purged while a channel must be interrupted. They really are two very distinct things.

A channel is akin to a macro, you are only using one click to do a series of attacks that can be canceled or interrupted.

Yes a Channel does damage over time, no it is not a "DoT".

Toc de Malsvi

The famous "moar dots" video is not asking for players to attack targets, it is asking for players to apply damage over time effects that will kill the targets but allow the player to do otherthings in the mean time.

Dot damage in MMO's is designed to come on the back end of combat as opposed to the front end or directly, Dots are designed to lack burst until you stack up several. A channel does not allow you to do this as you are channeling, and thus unable to add more dots or light/heavy attacks.

Toc de Malsvi

The argument that "DOTs are damage over time thus channels are DOTs" is akin to saying: "spells do damage and have special effects thus poisons are spells". It is taking a very simplistic basic explanation and applying in broad strokes that do not accurately describe the issue.

olsborg

While soul assault isnt a dot per se, it still delivers dot dmg and is increased by thaumaturge aswell. Its a channel and channels gets broken if LOS is broken, if someone goes invis LOS is effectively broken, working as intended.

BohnT

Ashamray wrote: »

Soooooo you want an I win button? Cool then in that case, my Soul Harvest can't be blocked or dodged.
Sweet glad we got that sorted.

It won't be a win button. Its damage isn't really high. In PvE as I know this ultie is even dps loss.
BTW inappropriate comparison. If you want Soul Harvest unblockable and undodgeable, you will get a DoT with cast time [/quote]

I'm sorry but in Pvp it's one of the best skills to burst someone. Just use a CC and SA and most of the people are dead. My SA hits for a maximum amount of 38k in PvP with my Magblade. Sure that hit an mage with 7x light armour and no impen but my magblade wasn't focused in dealing burst damage (not much spelldmg)
No cry just my two cents on this skill. In my opinion it's a win button if you play against newbies in PvP against every experienced player i wouldn't bother using it as you can easily survive it with every class. Magicka clases use purge, Stamsorcs and Stamdks block its damage(and heal themselves with burst heals) and Nightblades use cloak. Everyone has the same chance to survive it.

For short: good skill but totally fine how you can survive it.