xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

No way I can read all these posts but IMO just make the execute mechanic start at 25 or 20 percent and it will be balanced.

*worse than impale you mean - gives you all of the drawbacks of a channel but do the same thing as an instant cast ability. What a fantastic idea. Still play a stam build?

I play most builds actually. The first character I cleared vet maw on was my magplar. They could just bump up impale and mages wrath to where radiant is if you think that's better. Have you ever used radiant in pve in a veteran trial setting? Minutes straight of spamming one ability that does insane dps. I personally don't mind what they do to it in the long run but it is definitely way too strong right now.

Oh Anti
I'm just glad you're complaining about rd here in the Alliance War section rather than the pve forum where the devs might actually see it

Maybe if they had a trials section of the forums Either way, that's just my opinion on the matter. 23 pages of opinions so far in this thread and counting!

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Radiant also gets boosted from both thaumaturge and elemental expert. Impale and mages wrath only benefit from elemental expert. So the drawbacks of it being a channel aren't really that bad

People cite this so frequently. Are people dumb enough to not put any points into thick skinned? No one is saying dump 75 points there, but considering it helps mitigate most dangerous things youre missing out if you dont have some in there. With that said, defense points can double dip to counter it. Sure, you wont go as deep as your opponent goes for offense, but the difference comes out to at a max of like 10% damage, thats not comparable to the insane complaining people do.

Id also point out that if you turn it into a channeled impale (a skill few nb even find value in running in pvp mind you), RD is maybe three times the cost. Jesus beam is quite expensive, its not meant to do instant execute damage at super low hp, its meant to be applied at semi low hp and put pressure on an opponent - executing if they cant react or you time it with something like a meteor or DF. In fact, I'd argue that if it was meant be to used exactly like the other executes - like the usual suspects keep insisting, then the costs would be similar. It's a high cost skill because it's meant to be used as a regular damage skill as well. Nothing about its functionality implies it should be treated like impale, yet so many in this thread are up in arms because it isnt just like impale.

Id be fine buffing impale so nb find reason to use it more in pvp, id be cautious about buffing mages wrath though considering it can be applied early and timed with big burst.

I always have points in thick skinned but it doesn't even matter when you can purge or cloak radiant anyways. This doesn't even affect me much in PVP so I don't care if they buff it or nerf it. I'm just saying its way stronger than other executes and could use some balancing. Instead of trying to change other executes to become more in line with radiant, just tone down radiant. You don't even play anymore so I don't know why you'd even care. Seems like you're just responding at this point to try to reach 10 forum stars.

Nifty2g wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

No way I can read all these posts but IMO just make the execute mechanic start at 25 or 20 percent and it will be balanced.

*worse than impale you mean - gives you all of the drawbacks of a channel but do the same thing as an instant cast ability. What a fantastic idea. Still play a stam build?

I play most builds actually. The first character I cleared vet maw on was my magplar. They could just bump up impale and mages wrath to where radiant is if you think that's better. Have you ever used radiant in pve in a veteran trial setting? Minutes straight of spamming one ability that does insane dps. I personally don't mind what they do to it in the long run but it is definitely way too strong right now.

Oh Anti
I'm just glad you're complaining about rd here in the Alliance War section rather than the pve forum where the devs might actually see it

Maybe if they had a trials section of the forums Either way, that's just my opinion on the matter. 23 pages of opinions so far in this thread and counting!

My Brogle

BROGLE!!

I mean, if not playing for 2 weeks is the measure of whether people arent entitled to opinions, youre in a dangerous crowd

Thats the point though, its not just an execute. Youre expecting it to be a basic under 25% execute and calling it overperforming when it does more than that. How many of the nerf criers have said "nerf it down to 20% so its a channel and worse execute than impale and mages wrath - but make sure the cost is no longer more than 3 times as expensive"? None, they just say the first part. Not only are people unable to provide strong arguments for why it should be nerfed in the first place, they arent even thinking wholistically about what happens to the skill and combat afterwards. Its the same mentality that helped buy us permaroot and overtuned siege from the devs - im going to be emotional and call for things that i 'feel' are too strong but ill struggle if you ask me to back it up with examples and solid logic.

Seriously, for 6 months, 6 months - ive asked for videos of the skill overperforming. Not one. I dont care if you 'feel' its overperforming, if you cant provide solid arguments and a single example video, maybe your 'feelings' are rooted in bias/emotion and not balance. Look at how many vids popped up regarding malubeth and how quickly. Jesus beam has had more complaining and for like 5 times as long - so if it was such a broken skill someone should have been able to show a single example of it being so OP without it crumbling under a basic analysis. But, if you point that inconvenient fact out, youre just a forumplar. Ill gladly call for nerfs if someone can demonstrate it overperforming, but im still waiting on that. What an emotional forumplar response!

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Radiant also gets boosted from both thaumaturge and elemental expert. Impale and mages wrath only benefit from elemental expert. So the drawbacks of it being a channel aren't really that bad

People cite this so frequently. Are people dumb enough to not put any points into thick skinned? No one is saying dump 75 points there, but considering it helps mitigate most dangerous things youre missing out if you dont have some in there. With that said, defense points can double dip to counter it. Sure, you wont go as deep as your opponent goes for offense, but the difference comes out to at a max of like 10% damage, thats not comparable to the insane complaining people do.

Id also point out that if you turn it into a channeled impale (a skill few nb even find value in running in pvp mind you), RD is maybe three times the cost. Jesus beam is quite expensive, its not meant to do instant execute damage at super low hp, its meant to be applied at semi low hp and put pressure on an opponent - executing if they cant react or you time it with something like a meteor or DF. In fact, I'd argue that if it was meant be to used exactly like the other executes - like the usual suspects keep insisting, then the costs would be similar. It's a high cost skill because it's meant to be used as a regular damage skill as well. Nothing about its functionality implies it should be treated like impale, yet so many in this thread are up in arms because it isnt just like impale.

Id be fine buffing impale so nb find reason to use it more in pvp, id be cautious about buffing mages wrath though considering it can be applied early and timed with big burst.

I always have points in thick skinned but it doesn't even matter when you can purge or cloak radiant anyways. This doesn't even affect me much in PVP so I don't care if they buff it or nerf it. I'm just saying its way stronger than other executes and could use some balancing. Instead of trying to change other executes to become more in line with radiant, just tone down radiant. You don't even play anymore so I don't know why you'd even care. Seems like you're just responding at this point to try to reach 10 forum stars.

Nifty2g wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Winnamine wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

No way I can read all these posts but IMO just make the execute mechanic start at 25 or 20 percent and it will be balanced.

*worse than impale you mean - gives you all of the drawbacks of a channel but do the same thing as an instant cast ability. What a fantastic idea. Still play a stam build?

I play most builds actually. The first character I cleared vet maw on was my magplar. They could just bump up impale and mages wrath to where radiant is if you think that's better. Have you ever used radiant in pve in a veteran trial setting? Minutes straight of spamming one ability that does insane dps. I personally don't mind what they do to it in the long run but it is definitely way too strong right now.

Oh Anti
I'm just glad you're complaining about rd here in the Alliance War section rather than the pve forum where the devs might actually see it

Maybe if they had a trials section of the forums Either way, that's just my opinion on the matter. 23 pages of opinions so far in this thread and counting!

My Brogle

BROGLE!!

I mean, if not playing for 2 weeks is the measure of whether people arent entitled to opinions, youre in a dangerous crowd

Thats the point though, its not just an execute. Youre expecting it to be a basic under 25% execute and calling it overperforming when it does more than that. How many of the nerf criers have said "nerf it down to 20% so its a channel and worse execute than impale and mages wrath - but make sure the cost is no longer more than 3 times as expensive"? None, they just say the first part. Not only are people unable to provide strong arguments for why it should be nerfed in the first place, they arent even thinking wholistically about what happens to the skill and combat afterwards. Its the same mentality that helped buy us permaroot and overtuned siege from the devs - im going to be emotional and call for things that i 'feel' are too strong but ill struggle if you ask me to back it up with examples and solid logic.

Seriously, for 6 months, 6 months - ive asked for videos of the skill overperforming. Not one. I dont care if you 'feel' its overperforming, if you cant provide solid arguments and a single example video, maybe your 'feelings' are rooted in bias/emotion and not balance. Look at how many vids popped up regarding malubeth and how quickly. Jesus beam has had more complaining and for like 5 times as long - so if it was such a broken skill someone should have been able to show a single example of it being so OP without it crumbling under a basic analysis. But, if you point that inconvenient fact out, youre just a forumplar. Ill gladly call for nerfs if someone can demonstrate it overperforming, but im still waiting on that. What an emotional forumplar response!

I came here to give my opinion about the skill. I don't have a video lined up just to appease you. It's stronger than other executes- it can crit for over 60k in trials and it starts at a much higher percentage. People mindlessly spam it in PVP on targets they did no work to kill. My opinion is lower the execute percentage. If they lower the cost fine but if they don't it shouldnt matter to you because you don't play anymore. Good players will adjust to any changes thrown their way. No need to cry about potential changes to the class you adore on the forums.

When I do go back to play, it's on the class I adore. People mindlessly spam everything under the sun in pvp, that sole reason does not mean each skill warrants a nerf. You specifically don't need to provide a video, but for something so many people say is soooooo overpowered, logic would dictate that at least one person should be able to produce a single example in 6 months - particularly when so many of the people calling for nerfs are the same ones that record every single moment in pvp for their highlight reels. "Good players will adjust to any changes thrown their way" - so adjust to jesus beam then eh? You say you don't have any issues with it, yet ask for significant nerfs. That's pretty inconsistent.

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Radiant also gets boosted from both thaumaturge and elemental expert. Impale and mages wrath only benefit from elemental expert. So the drawbacks of it being a channel aren't really that bad

People cite this so frequently. Are people dumb enough to not put any points into thick skinned? No one is saying dump 75 points there, but considering it helps mitigate most dangerous things youre missing out if you dont have some in there. With that said, defense points can double dip to counter it. Sure, you wont go as deep as your opponent goes for offense, but the difference comes out to at a max of like 10% damage, thats not comparable to the insane complaining people do.

Id also point out that if you turn it into a channeled impale (a skill few nb even find value in running in pvp mind you), RD is maybe three times the cost. Jesus beam is quite expensive, its not meant to do instant execute damage at super low hp, its meant to be applied at semi low hp and put pressure on an opponent - executing if they cant react or you time it with something like a meteor or DF. In fact, I'd argue that if it was meant be to used exactly like the other executes - like the usual suspects keep insisting, then the costs would be similar. It's a high cost skill because it's meant to be used as a regular damage skill as well. Nothing about its functionality implies it should be treated like impale, yet so many in this thread are up in arms because it isnt just like impale.

Id be fine buffing impale so nb find reason to use it more in pvp, id be cautious about buffing mages wrath though considering it can be applied early and timed with big burst.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

We all know these agendas for merging this skill comes from dodge centered builds who believe they should be able to dodge everything and because they can't dodge beam it must be OP

Back in April of 2014 each class had a skill that could not be dodged. Mages Wrath, Lava Whip, Veiled Strike, and Jabs.

I know because folks used to try to roll dodge my Mages Wrath all the time and it always hit them out of their roll and finished them off for over a year until 1.6 when dodge became popular and people started whining about the said moves not being dodge able.

There should be some attacks you simply can't dodge that you must block instead..this is called combat depth. The early iterations of this game prior to 1.6 was more then just CP you had to know your skills and fighting a Nightblade you had to know veiled strike couldn't be dodged so you had to block that attack instead, we had block regen back then but you had to build to block cast. Prior to 1.6 Velicious Curse could not be blocked or dodged only purged.

This whining about skill being un dodgeable and basically removing block from every build except tanks has effectively gutted the combat in this game to just run Stam, roll dodge stack HOTS and button mash.

Any depth to pvp combat is gone pretty much. They just need to do a complete reset to 1.5 and disable CP in Cyrodiil and tweak Magic DK slightly and things would be good.

All the nerfs, changing undodgeable skills to being dodgeable and nerfs to magic defense has just encouraged the Meg's Zerg lag we have now. I rarely even bother with pvp at all anymore and it was my fav part of the game but it's just horrible now

It was far harder to predict what you opponent would do back then because hybrid was viable, that bow wielding Templar may be able to use magic and toast you...you could spec in both and be viable there was far more options and viable sets all we have now is min-max to the limit and lag with poor combat depth...what a shame

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

We all know these agendas for merging this skill comes from dodge centered builds who believe they should be able to dodge everything and because they can't dodge beam it must be OP

Back in April of 2014 each class had a skill that could not be dodged. Mages Wrath, Lava Whip, Veiled Strike, and Jabs.

I know because folks used to try to roll dodge my Mages Wrath all the time and it always hit them out of their roll and finished them off for over a year until 1.6 when dodge became popular and people started whining about the said moves not being dodge able.

There should be some attacks you simply can't dodge that you must block instead..this is called combat depth. The early iterations of this game prior to 1.6 was more then just CP you had to know your skills and fighting a Nightblade you had to know veiled strike couldn't be dodged so you had to block that attack instead, we had block regen back then but you had to build to block cast. Prior to 1.6 Velicious Curse could not be blocked or dodged only purged.

This whining about skill being un dodgeable and basically removing block from every build except tanks has effectively gutted the combat in this game to just run Stam, roll dodge stack HOTS and button mash.

Any depth to pvp combat is gone pretty much. They just need to do a complete reset to 1.5 and disable CP in Cyrodiil and tweak Magic DK slightly and things would be good.

All the nerfs, changing undodgeable skills to being dodgeable and nerfs to magic defense has just encouraged the Meg's Zerg lag we have now. I rarely even bother with pvp at all anymore and it was my fav part of the game but it's just horrible now

It was far harder to predict what you opponent would do back then because hybrid was viable, that bow wielding Templar may be able to use magic and toast you...you could spec in both and be viable there was far more options and viable sets all we have now is min-max to the limit and lag with poor combat depth...what a shame

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Hashtag_ wrote: »

Darnathian wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@zheg how do you feel about his "pre beaming"idea?

First, we both know zos wouldnt be able to code that without it bugging in some obscene way. Second, what would happen if they heal to just above 49%? The skill shouldnt scale even if the beam by itself brings them below the threshold again? Sounds pretty stacked against the skill.

As has been said before, an exhausting amount of times, stop comparing the functionality to instant cast executes. People expect the skill should never be used unless theyre super low hp, at that point, the fact that its a channel is largely irrelevant, youre expecting the skill to do instant execute damage. Its. A. Channel. Stop comparing it to other executes that are instant and significantly cheaper. There are many times when you launch a DF, jav, and go into a jesus beam so your buddy can continue the damage pressure. Its an intended function of the skill, just like mages wrath is meant to linger and fire off if your burst is strong enough. If they heal up and the chance to kill is lost, the templar can eat the magicka loss and cancel the beam or stand there like a derp and make themselves vulnerable.

RD does do instant execute damage at the first tick, also people spam it on you at 100% HP not just execute HP. No one spams any other execute in the game on someone at 100% other than RD. Doesn't that tell you RD is overperforming vs other executes?

No, it tells me there are a lot of FOTM morons playing templars because they heard that RD is EZ mode.

And, by the way, it is categorically false that sorcerers do not use their execute Mage's Fury against targets not in execute range, even full health. Indeed it is advantageous to do so.

bob.ellisonb16_ESO wrote: »

Let's get back on topic it's the most frustrating spell in the game and the solutions are simple (though might require slightly more skill)

Any one would be acceptable and not really a nerf.

1. Make it dodge rollable...

The skill was dodge rollable for 6 months and the opinion of templars, even those who believe the skill is stupid OP now, was that this completely ruined the skill. Been there, done that, anyone who is halfway honest and knowledgable knows it's NOT a reasonable solution

"Not really a nerf" - lol. You're right, it's not really a nerf. It's an evisceration.

*****

I still think the best compromise would be to prevent the spell from doing moderate damage and functioning as an execute. I do agree that is too much in the same package. Make the templar pick one or the other from their morph choices (I would have the moderate damage morph have some sort of buff/debuff otherwise it will not measure up).

I used RD when it was dodgeroll, it worked fine then. It wasn't hard to use it as an actual execute, then hits 25% it's a instant death, you don't even see the beam the first tick hits so fast.

If people use it as an actual exeute like every other execute in the game and not someone to spam when they hit 50%~ so you can kill them in two ticks. Use it when there low and 1 tick range for instant death.

Hempyre wrote: »

@Hashtag_

Your statments are inaccurate. Rd does not do "execute" damage from the first tick. It is not an "execute". It's a channel with an execute component.

Your range suggestion is laughable. Let me guess, you play a stam based something with charge?

Ya you do...

RD is a execute... come on really.

What wrong with having to actually be in the fight to use an OP skill? It's execute thats a channel.

I have 4 magicka characters and two stamina. Anyone with even a bit of knowledge in this game and who has actually played more than 1 class knows this skill is OP.

The only thing a shorter range will do it cut down the full radiant FOTM idiots that are everywhere in cyrodiil.

Wrong. Nerfing range is a huge deal to a class that has no mobility.

There are plenty of players in here that play multiple classes that have listed counters to everyone of the nerf whiners. They just choose not to listen.

And i cant tell you own a templar toon. But obviously dont play it enough if you spout non sense loke that.

The class has the best heals in the game, that is the exchange for not having mobility. Dk's tankiness is the exchange for not having mobility.

Lets be real, right now Templar has everything

leepalmer95 wrote: »

https://youtu.be/8xendBXWr_w?t=30s

Skip to 30 if your impatient.

Dude just bash them

Except mobility, except for good ults, except for responsive and instant skills, except for logical passive skills, except for a good class shield, except for a gap closer that actually works, except for a viable skill that CCs through block, except for roots, except for ... i think my point was made. Templars are in a good place, but don't make absurd statements like 'they have everything', if you actually believe that then it shows youre not actually interested in logic - just emotion and bias.

Someone just said it should be reflectable, because you know, its not like a DK wouldnt just be a hard check on every magplar in existence with that change. FFS you people have lost it.

This right here Zheg just proves you are just arrogant about the topic.

You must be insane if you think Nova is weak, it is probably the strongest group ultimate in the game, gives a massive amount of damage reduction and gravity crush is the single most strongest synergy.. which also scales to the players Champion Points mind you, so make sure you get the right person to use gravity crush.

Empowering Sweep, having this on your bar not only gives you the piercing spear passive to make heals hit harder etc if you're using it as defensive etc, but reduces damage by 15% for only 1 person hit, then additional 4% for each other person hit. The ultimate cost is cheap as ***, pair it with bloodspawn and you can just chain them together.

Remembrance is lacking but also gives a damage mitigation to everyone nearby, I've noticed how it can be pretty annoying.

Except for a good class shield, are you forgetting you forgetting all the blazing shield builds making people kill themselves when trying to attack the person? Not only that but I believe you also used to play that build and claim to get the highest group damage. Yeah, terrible class shield. Sure you have to spec for it, but the only decent class shield would be Sorcerer, this is a pretty poor argument to list in there.

Toppling Charge works fine for me in all content now, don't think I have been stuck in animation for a long time.

How is it an absurd statement? Templars currently right now have more utility than any other class, you can spec however the *** you want to and be viable. Stamina Damage, Magicka Damage, Blazing Shield Tank, Utility, Healer. Statements to homogenize the class with dumb examples how they don't have roots is kinda meh when they have such well rounded capabilities.

I think you have lost it, I gathered as much when I read that build of yours.

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

xANTIxMATTERx wrote: »

No way I can read all these posts but IMO just make the execute mechanic start at 25 or 20 percent and it will be balanced.

*worse than impale you mean - gives you all of the drawbacks of a channel but do the same thing as an instant cast ability. What a fantastic idea. Still play a stam build?

I play most builds actually. The first character I cleared vet maw on was my magplar. They could just bump up impale and mages wrath to where radiant is if you think that's better. Have you ever used radiant in pve in a veteran trial setting? Minutes straight of spamming one ability that does insane dps. I personally don't mind what they do to it in the long run but it is definitely way too strong right now.

Magus wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I dont know how you think an instant tick that arrives as you understand youre being beamed doesnt actually impact the players experience with this skill. If Im at 45% and I get beamed, Im already at 30-35%, and I just discovered Im being hit with an execute.

Itd be like the old dawnbreaker with the instant dot tick still in on top of the base damage. Id be dawnbreaking people across Cyro dealing a 1.5X DB. People would say nerf this skill, lower the damage, change it etc. When the real solution was removing that first dot tick.

So I could say, 'yea zheg, that first tick on DB should be moved back. It probably wont change much though.' Then when the other players come to the thread just screaming to nerf the skills damage, I will sit here calling them idiots and demanding proof and drawing comparisons how a mag sorc can combo meteor and curse and Cfrag to outdamage my burst.

This is the kind of conversation you draw out. Instead of telling people - hey, DB is fine and the tick needs to be moved back, I come on here and fight rather than work towards a solution. All of your back and forth draws another huge RD thread. Which is what will lead this skill being nerfed in a strange way in the next patch after this one. So... thanks I guess? None of this *balance* stuff happens overnight. Everyone would be silly to think its not going to get adjusted at this point with a simple bullet in the patch notes saying "it was overperforming in <X> and has been adjusted".

Magus wrote: »

The only bug is that if you are really low health, like say 10% or so, the radiant will often times kill you and you fall over without the animation happening. If I recall, they tried to fix this bug before and they did, but probably reintroduced it because they like to reintroduce bugs that they previously fix.

The same sort of thing happens with mage's wrath, if you are low health then the explosion effect will occur before the sorc does the animation with his hand, even better is that implosion will proc at the same time, so you instant die on your screen too without an animation. This is a newer thing; before the old disintegrate proc barely ever happened compared to the new implosion proc which happens all the time.

Same sort of thing happens with executioner, but it requires an animation cancel to get the same effect. The other two examples don't. Stacking poison injection with executioner is just as lethal as the other two but does require some melee. And that is pretty where most of the heart burn is, other than it's highly visible whereas the other executes aren't.

This is the because the first tick is instant. Youve already taken damage when the beam connects. If youre actually below the 50% threshold. Youre taking 2 ticks unless you are a templar ready to purge it. This is not good design for an execute with a high threshold.

Correct, and I'm saying all executes have that mechanic of instant damage. So, you would advocate removing that for only one of the executes in the game?

Zheg wrote: »

What are you on dude? How is agreeing with the first tick needing a slight delay the same as being double hit at once with that old DB bug? The answer - its not. They changed the mechanics so there are fewer ticks that hit harder; you should have enough time to react between tick 1 and 2, otherwise you'll likely be disappointing a lot of fanboys.

I defend the skill because im able to fight against it in pvp exceptionally well, realize its counters and see the need for it to be a counter to stam builds. I defend it because if someone is claiming its broken the burden of proof is on them to prove such. I defend it because when balance changes are acted upon by emotion we end up getting garbage like permaroot metas. Thats a terrible precedent to follow, and one would have hoped that lessons were learned, but thats probably asking for too much given the track record of our playerbase.