Why the DK Wings Reflect Needs to Be Changed

Armitas · July 2016

Are you only using a bow on stam sorc?

If you are a stam sorc why aren't you using hurricane and fighting in melee range with the occasional surprise lethal arrow?

As a mag sorc mines directly counter the mdks melee range attacks. You can just sit in the mines channeling lightning staff heavy attacks and streaking in when you have a shard up. Just break the channel before the end so the particle doesn't go off. If you put wall of lightning on your mines you can increase your heavy attack damage by 40% when they get a concussion (it's a maim, the lightning version of burning). Mines are to melee what reflect is to range. For a mSorc most of the fight is about dropping an insta shard at melee range followed by overload light attacks while the reflect is down and the DK is CC'd. You can't take the DK down by straight damage, you have to work in a window to do burst, and it's the same for the DK trying to take the mSorc down. mDK vs mSorc is a chess game rather than a fist fight.

KisoValley · July 2016

Great post ^

OP and broccolis should also be crying about mines being a direct counter to melee builds tbh

Cathexis · July 2016

Armitas wrote: »

Are you only using a bow on stam sorc?

If you are a stam sorc why aren't you using hurricane and fighting in melee range with the occasional surprise lethal arrow?

As a mag sorc mines directly counter the mdks melee range attacks. You can just sit in the mines channeling lightning staff heavy attacks and streaking in when you have a shard up. Just break the channel before the end so the particle doesn't go off. If you put wall of lightning on your mines you can increase your heavy attack damage by 40% when they get a concussion (it's a maim, the lightning version of burning). Mines are to melee what reflect is to range. For a mSorc most of the fight is about dropping an insta shard at melee range followed by overload light attacks while the reflect is down and the DK is CC'd. You can't take the DK down by straight damage, you have to work in a window to do burst, and it's the same for the DK trying to take the mSorc down. mDK vs mSorc is a chess game rather than a fist fight.

Need to read more closely. Not using range attacks. Which is my point.

As for mag sorc, I'm less knowledgeable but I concur that it does have more viable options, however most seem lackluster in terms of burst potential. Mines are definitely efficient, a critical difference between stam and mag sorc.

Cathexis · July 2016

KisoValley wrote: »

As a Stam DK and a Mag Sorc main I can say confidently this is a 100% L2P issue lmfao.

No Stam DK that is legit can keep wings up 95% of the time not even 75% of the time. In Mythical's dueling tournament the judges even added/docked points in case of a tie for the usage of wings for Stam DKs because they know they can't keep them up as much as people seem to think.

As for Mag DKs? They have barely any damage so a Mag Sorc should win that anyway lol

How can it be a learn to play issue if it isn't about fighting. It has nothing to do with the actual combat or how to use skills or what skills to use. It's about the nature of how the skills function. Wings > Projectiles .: Projectiles (arguably) not worth slotting.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.
...
The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

I sympathize. My sorc hates DKs. But no build is going to be equally effective against everything out there. The fact that one class spec and skill is hard to counter for you is, IMO, a good thing. It's not something that needs to be fixed. A relatively stationary class has to have some sort of defense against ranged attacks.

I'm all for some sort of defense against range. Makes a lot of sense to me. I would argue you don't need to make a spec or skill more or less difficult to counter, just diverse in terms of play style - there is no justification for making one class weaker or stronger simply to have a counter class, it's a silly assumption with no actual basis in logical reasoning.

I would argue that given the complexity and diversity of the game, creating finite archetypes out of abstract play styles and character combinations is fundamentally a bad thing. But regardless it is how it is, and all that said, there are ways to change the mechanics to make dks have range defense without fully negating all range builds.

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

Think of it like this, you may struggle to kill a mag dk, but you'll get their eventually. But if your careful they won't be abl to kill you because their damage is bad and there missing burst.

*FACEPALM* READ.

NOT A L2P ISSUE.

It most definitely is. If you are that same ****y DC stam sorc of similar name, yeah I totally see why you need DKs nerfed even more lol. So potato.

It is a L2p issue. Adapt your build and deal with wings by adding melee in your arsenal. Quit being a primadonna.

@Lord_Hev lol come fight me bro I'll tear you apart.
And no its not, learn to read. My build is entirely melee, which is actually the point im trying to make.

The potato stam sorc QQing about DK wings is going to tear me apart, I'm practically quivering in fear.

@Lord_Hev I understand, and accept your surrender. *Headpats* It's ok if you are a scaredy pusscat.

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

KisoValley wrote: »

I highly doubt very many Stam DKs will use it if they took away the 100% even if you added what you mention because they can't keep it up as much as Mag DKs even though some broccolis on here seem to think they can. I know I'd drop it for sure like what the *** is the point in it?

Typical broccolis trying to nerf a skill that doesn't even work all of the time because it's the only skill in the game to counter their beyond broken class.

What make it virtually useless for stamina while buffing magicka's mobility and removing the need for constant recasting of it. We cant have that can we, gotta keep the status quo. It's all the broccoli's fault that and the corn, potatoes, tomatoes, zuchinni, squash, and don't forget those lousy pea's...

Toc de Malsvi · July 2016

You would be more likely to hit with the reflect if it wasn't 100%. As it is every player in the game knows you see wings or the wings buff after you've already fired just dodge roll. If it wasn't 100% and it was a 30 second buff it would be much harder for ranged to tell when it was reflected.

Lord_Hev · July 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

KisoValley wrote: »

As a Stam DK and a Mag Sorc main I can say confidently this is a 100% L2P issue lmfao.

No Stam DK that is legit can keep wings up 95% of the time not even 75% of the time. In Mythical's dueling tournament the judges even added/docked points in case of a tie for the usage of wings for Stam DKs because they know they can't keep them up as much as people seem to think.

As for Mag DKs? They have barely any damage so a Mag Sorc should win that anyway lol

How can it be a learn to play issue if it isn't about fighting. It has nothing to do with the actual combat or how to use skills or what skills to use. It's about the nature of how the skills function. Wings > Projectiles .: Projectiles (arguably) not worth slotting.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

A lot of people seem to be suggesting I want wings or dks to be nerfed which was not at all what I was suggesting. I was suggesting the mechanic needs to be reworked because currently I have been finding that I either have to build for range and accept that I will be at a handicap vs all DKs, or build for all close range/non projectiles and lose a lot of valuable utilities, and have very limited build options.
...
The problem I am trying to address is that like 50% of my build choices revolve around whether or not I want a range attack that makes me more versatile vs general classes but handicapped's DKs. In its current state, wings really hinders build options. I'm not saying it has to be nerfed or less powerful. I'm saying the mechanic itself may benefit the entire game by being changed to be less extreme in terms of its ability to hard counter.

I sympathize. My sorc hates DKs. But no build is going to be equally effective against everything out there. The fact that one class spec and skill is hard to counter for you is, IMO, a good thing. It's not something that needs to be fixed. A relatively stationary class has to have some sort of defense against ranged attacks.

I'm all for some sort of defense against range. Makes a lot of sense to me. I would argue you don't need to make a spec or skill more or less difficult to counter, just diverse in terms of play style - there is no justification for making one class weaker or stronger simply to have a counter class, it's a silly assumption with no actual basis in logical reasoning.

I would argue that given the complexity and diversity of the game, creating finite archetypes out of abstract play styles and character combinations is fundamentally a bad thing. But regardless it is how it is, and all that said, there are ways to change the mechanics to make dks have range defense without fully negating all range builds.

I don't think it's effectiveness which is the issue I'm trying to address here. The issue is the inconvenience and limitations of options imposed by a single skill.

Think of it like this, you may struggle to kill a mag dk, but you'll get their eventually. But if your careful they won't be abl to kill you because their damage is bad and there missing burst.

*FACEPALM* READ.

NOT A L2P ISSUE.

It most definitely is. If you are that same ****y DC stam sorc of similar name, yeah I totally see why you need DKs nerfed even more lol. So potato.

It is a L2p issue. Adapt your build and deal with wings by adding melee in your arsenal. Quit being a primadonna.

@Lord_Hev lol come fight me bro I'll tear you apart.
And no its not, learn to read. My build is entirely melee, which is actually the point im trying to make.

The potato stam sorc QQing about DK wings is going to tear me apart, I'm practically quivering in fear.

@Lord_Hev I understand, and accept your surrender. *Headpats* It's ok if you are a scaredy pusscat.

I'm still waiting for the formal challenge, lol. You online for a whoopin or what?

Vangy · July 2016

Shields counter all my damaging abilities. Therefore I shouldnt bother slotting any damage skills....... Im going to assume sorcs keep it up 100% of the time and that Im too noob to CC as well as put pressure and burn through shields. Shields OP. Nerf more Pls.

^ that is basically your argument for nerfing wings OP.

Wings have a limit of 4 hits. Wait for 3 seconds and CC then time your burst. StamDKs can never keep it up all the time anyway and magDKS have like spaghetti wet noodle DPS so either way, you are fine.

Chilla_Deluxe · July 2016

I really can't stand people whining about skills being Op seriously, because of this they always nerf everything. Slot Curse and soul assault non projectile based bursts also dks can't have wings up all the time.

Orchish · July 2016

To even suggest that this skill is in anyway OP is absurd. Ask any DK out there and they will tell you half the bloody time it doesn't even work. Just another butchered skill in the DK class.

Competent players have no issues getting around wings. I am a stam DK spamming wings is simply not an option and with no class based range abilities it is the only defence i have against the mass spam of range playstyles in Cyrodiil.

Orchish · July 2016

thankyourat wrote: »

Stam dk pretty much hard counters all classes it's a little op right now, I don't want dks nerfed but wings do need to be changed. It basically makes ranged builds useless. You can play around it but it's incredibly difficult and unnecessary. Stam dk is in a good spot right now. It's the best class, but it can be beat

Makes range builds useless? LOL are you being serious? no you're being sarcastic you have to be.

Cathexis · July 2016

Orchish wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Stam dk pretty much hard counters all classes it's a little op right now, I don't want dks nerfed but wings do need to be changed. It basically makes ranged builds useless. You can play around it but it's incredibly difficult and unnecessary. Stam dk is in a good spot right now. It's the best class, but it can be beat

Makes range builds useless? LOL are you being serious? no you're being sarcastic you have to be.

Give me a good reason to use a range build, or slot a reflectable range ability in place of a melee ability or area ability. Im genuinely asking, no sarcasm. I promise i can deliver a counter argument.

To.be clear im not suggesting its OP. Im suggesting the mechanic drastically reduces available skill options because it severely limits the practicality of using reflectable range abilities.

Dont get me wrong, id be content to bring back double reflect, or boosting the damage on non reflectable range abilities, or adding some sort of temporary buff that makes projectiles or the next projectile non reflectable. None of those options are direct nerfs to wings.

Lokey0024 · July 2016

I think i would be mad too if i was trying to xv1 a dk by snipe spamming and getting my shots sent back to me. I can kill every other class by doing this easy so why should dks be able to defend themselves? I even pressed the button real hard to make it crit and it still didnt work. This game hard, want make smash the things with flying stick. Why live so much dk?

Sorry, trying to understand the mindset had a minor stroke because of IQ loss.

Sharee · July 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Stam dk pretty much hard counters all classes it's a little op right now, I don't want dks nerfed but wings do need to be changed. It basically makes ranged builds useless. You can play around it but it's incredibly difficult and unnecessary. Stam dk is in a good spot right now. It's the best class, but it can be beat

Makes range builds useless? LOL are you being serious? no you're being sarcastic you have to be.

Give me a good reason to use a range build, or slot a reflectable range ability in place of a melee ability or area ability. Im genuinely asking, no sarcasm. I promise i can deliver a counter argument.

1, you can attack any target in a 28m radius around you, and swap from target to target instantly. If you are melee, you have to move from target to target before being able to damage them. This gives a ranged attacker a wider range of targets to choose from.

2, attacking from range is inherently safer, because you are not always open to retaliation, unlike a melee character. Walls, high rocks etc. often offer a safe point to attack from, as does a friendly zerg between you and your target.

3, being a melee character makes you an obvious threat all the time, unlike a ranged attacker that often has his target wonder "where did that come from?"

Lord-Otto · July 2016

1. You cannot instantly switch from target to target. Wrong, you can, more often than you'd like. With no lock-on mechanic in this game, most of your damage easily gets spread across the whole enemy zerg. Whereas in melee range, it is really easy to focus exactly the same guy. And witch gapclosers, you can actually switch to a new target at will. Which even repositions yourself, unlike ranged attacks.

2. Yes, it is safer, but it is also safer for your opponent to just LoS or rolldodge away or take cover behind HIS zerg. Never was I able to open a gap with my sorc, though, which needs it the most, but gapclosers prevent it.

3. Cloak. Also, gapclosers. With a range of 22 meters, you can easily run into a "where did he come from" situation.

And yet, ranged builds still have to deal with hard counters as wings or dodgeroll. Inflicting damage via projectile, not HITSCAN is a HUGE disadvantage in laggy Cyrodiil, one that people still underestimate. And above all, destro staves still have puny 2.8 spellpower, but must fight in close range just as the melee fighters. No, this is not balanced at all.

Sharee · July 2016

Lord-Otto wrote: »

1. You cannot instantly switch from target to target. Wrong, you can, more often than you'd like. With no lock-on mechanic in this game, most of your damage easily gets spread across the whole enemy zerg. Whereas in melee range, it is really easy to focus exactly the same guy. And witch gapclosers, you can actually switch to a new target at will. Which even repositions yourself, unlike ranged attacks.

You misunderstood what i mean.

Consider this: You are standing between two fights. You can help with the fight east of west of you, both are within 28m range.

But if you are a melee character, once you decide to help with the east fight, the west fight is no longer in your range. You gap close east, and now you are 56m away from the west fight. Whereas if you are ranged, you can help kill the east enemy, then switch to west enemy without missing a beat. That's what i mean by ranged character having a wider range of targets.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

3. Cloak. Also, gapclosers. With a range of 22 meters, you can easily run into a "where did he come from" situation.

"Where is he attacking me from", not "where did he come from". A ranged attacker can stay unknown for several seconds, especially if you are already distracted by another enemy engaging you. That does not happen with a melee attacker, you always see where the threat is.

dodgehopper_ESO · July 2016

kaithuzar wrote: »

Reducing the reflect chance/rate will make wings unusable by any dk in pvp. If it is decreased it should be no more than 50% & in turn there should be a "reliable" gap closer; not something that can not be blocked.

Why would this make them unusable? I would actually prefer something like this on my DK. Imagine this as well, you slot posture, wings, and shuffle on your DK. They're all pretty long term buffs and a lot of the abilities that don't completely whiff by you from shuffle will bounce back to your opponent. If Scales got rid of its 4 projectile limitation you could theoretically fling back 20 projectiles in a 30 second period, and actually reflect far more damage back than you're capable of currently in a more efficient manner. My suggestion that Scales is not a perfect reflect is actually intended to keep in mind the counterplay of other classes and builds without giving them an advantage, in return I am suggesting DK get Scales back as a long term buff with no limit to projectiles reflected. I think this is more than fair and would actually be very powerful with the right builds - personally I would prefer this on my DK.

Cathexis · July 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Stam dk pretty much hard counters all classes it's a little op right now, I don't want dks nerfed but wings do need to be changed. It basically makes ranged builds useless. You can play around it but it's incredibly difficult and unnecessary. Stam dk is in a good spot right now. It's the best class, but it can be beat

Makes range builds useless? LOL are you being serious? no you're being sarcastic you have to be.

Give me a good reason to use a range build, or slot a reflectable range ability in place of a melee ability or area ability. Im genuinely asking, no sarcasm. I promise i can deliver a counter argument.

1, you can attack any target in a 28m radius around you, and swap from target to target instantly. If you are melee, you have to move from target to target before being able to damage them. This gives a ranged attacker a wider range of targets to choose from.

2, attacking from range is inherently safer, because you are not always open to retaliation, unlike a melee character. Walls, high rocks etc. often offer a safe point to attack from, as does a friendly zerg between you and your target.

3, being a melee character makes you an obvious threat all the time, unlike a ranged attacker that often has his target wonder "where did that come from?"

(1) Yes but whenever you encounter wings, you are useless. Also more often than not you hit the target most directly in front of you, not the target yoh have selected.

(2) attacking from range does nothing to protect you from gap closers, and once you encounter wings you are useless.

(3) 80% of players run around in zergs that will run you down and power heal through. Also when you encounter wings you are useless.

Sharee · July 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Orchish wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Stam dk pretty much hard counters all classes it's a little op right now, I don't want dks nerfed but wings do need to be changed. It basically makes ranged builds useless. You can play around it but it's incredibly difficult and unnecessary. Stam dk is in a good spot right now. It's the best class, but it can be beat

Makes range builds useless? LOL are you being serious? no you're being sarcastic you have to be.

Give me a good reason to use a range build, or slot a reflectable range ability in place of a melee ability or area ability. Im genuinely asking, no sarcasm. I promise i can deliver a counter argument.

1, you can attack any target in a 28m radius around you, and swap from target to target instantly. If you are melee, you have to move from target to target before being able to damage them. This gives a ranged attacker a wider range of targets to choose from.

2, attacking from range is inherently safer, because you are not always open to retaliation, unlike a melee character. Walls, high rocks etc. often offer a safe point to attack from, as does a friendly zerg between you and your target.

3, being a melee character makes you an obvious threat all the time, unlike a ranged attacker that often has his target wonder "where did that come from?"

(1) Yes but whenever you encounter wings, you are useless. Also more often than not you hit the target most directly in front of you, not the target yoh have selected.

Wings reflect 4 projectiles. That is two crushing shock+ light attack weaves. 0 sec elapsed: 1st weave. 1 sec elapsed: 2nd weave. Wings down 1 second after they were cast(and that's assuming just a single ranged attacker!).
I've been hit and knocked down by a crystal frag so close after casting wings that the wing animation was still going on. So no, you are not useless.

Cathexis wrote: »

(2) attacking from range does nothing to protect you from gap closers

Standing behind a friendly zerg protects you from gap closers, as does standing on top of a keep wall. A melee character cannot attack without opening himself to retaliation. A ranged character can.

Cathexis wrote: »

(3) 80% of players run around in zergs that will run you down and power heal through.

Zergs are more benefical to ranged characters, because you do not have to leave the safety of the herd to do damage. You won't get run down unless the enemy zerg overruns your own zerg - but then if that happens, a melee character will die just as well as you(and probably sooner, since he was the closest to the enemy).

RoamingRiverElk · July 2016

ToRelax wrote: »

Bdawwg wrote: »

As if stam dks can constantly reflect, they run out of magicka quick with needing igneous shield and other magicka utility spells.
As a sorc you have streak to cc a mag Dk with wings, curse, inevitable det, lightning or resto heavy, mines, mages wrath, pets.
and if you're a melee build then wings is useless anyway. Every build will have a counter, if you're playing ranged then a reflect will counter you.

Except they don't need igenous shield and other magicka utility spells against a single sorc if they are using wings... so yeah, stam dks can constantly reflect.
As for your list, streak doesn't work for serious dmg for obvious reasons, curse and detonation only set up burst and can be easily outhealed if there's nothing to finish the opponent, heavy attacks are low damage, mines only work when the enemy runs into them, mage's wrath is a finisher and pets are garbage. Nope, we'll need projectiles then.

Wings nearly never have a hundred percent staying up rate. Meteor is not reflected. One can still do damage even to a stamina dk. It's not like it's easy to kill a magicka sorcerer either that is playing defensively. Not all builds need to be able to kill all builds.

The wings definitely cannot be nerfed because magicka dk would just fall over and die. Maybe the number of reflected projectiles could be changed based on max magicka, up to eight projectiles, that would help magicka DKs more then than stamina.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO · July 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Dude...seriously???

I'mma go make some sweet tea and walk away from this thread because I know I did not just click on a ESO thread that is trying to NERF the DK class.

/middlefinger

My proposal is meant as a way to nerf-proof the skill. If you had Evasion-duration on a 25-33% reflect it would balance out a few problems people have with Scales/Posture. Firstly, it would put pressure on the aggressor and make them give pause particularly if their health got low, BUT they could still have a shot at doing SOME damage to you. It wouldn't be perfect defense at range which is the issue ranged fighters have. Conversely, it would save a lot of magicka on the DK's part if he could fire and forget the skill (like it use to be during the perma-dk bats doublestacking ulti era) without all the flaws of that era. I've always felt perfect reflect was the issue with the skill. The only thing worse is perfect spell absorption. While perfect reflect/absorption were possible in standalone games I really think they are bad in the pvp balance of things in a multiplayer game. My proposal is meant to be a balance to the skill, where a tanky DK could still reflect a hell of a lot of projectiles, but he couldn't withstand 100 players firing at him from range purely because he is Sir-Flaps-A lot.

Adding more RNG to pvp is not the answer, shuffle RNG is already annoying enough.

It shouldn't be hard for range builds to either but some skills that aren't projectiles or simply time their strong projectiles, e.g. Hold that proc frags, when wings it about to end, cc and shoot.

Shuffle RNG is better than Perfect Evasion. My solution deals with the complaint, while also making the cost/benefit ratio an actual improvement to the DK. I personally feel my proposal is balanced, even if it does involve an RNG (which is part and parcel of much of the game to begin with).

when you dont even play a dk and a everyone who knows dk's tells you that you have no idea what your talking about, maybe take a second to think to yourself, hey ive never played a dk, maybe i have no idea what im talking about.( im assuming you dont play a dk, or you would realise how bad your suggestion is)

dont forget this is a group based AVA combat system. its not designed for duals between every type of class/ build to be perfectly matched in the first place. when you play all classes you see that some things are overpowered against some builds and also under-powered against others, and that is not necessarily a balance problem.
ps good balance does not come from "fixing" that the strategy YOU want to use does not work well against something.

Cathexis · July 2016

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Dude...seriously???

I'mma go make some sweet tea and walk away from this thread because I know I did not just click on a ESO thread that is trying to NERF the DK class.

/middlefinger

My proposal is meant as a way to nerf-proof the skill. If you had Evasion-duration on a 25-33% reflect it would balance out a few problems people have with Scales/Posture. Firstly, it would put pressure on the aggressor and make them give pause particularly if their health got low, BUT they could still have a shot at doing SOME damage to you. It wouldn't be perfect defense at range which is the issue ranged fighters have. Conversely, it would save a lot of magicka on the DK's part if he could fire and forget the skill (like it use to be during the perma-dk bats doublestacking ulti era) without all the flaws of that era. I've always felt perfect reflect was the issue with the skill. The only thing worse is perfect spell absorption. While perfect reflect/absorption were possible in standalone games I really think they are bad in the pvp balance of things in a multiplayer game. My proposal is meant to be a balance to the skill, where a tanky DK could still reflect a hell of a lot of projectiles, but he couldn't withstand 100 players firing at him from range purely because he is Sir-Flaps-A lot.

Adding more RNG to pvp is not the answer, shuffle RNG is already annoying enough.

It shouldn't be hard for range builds to either but some skills that aren't projectiles or simply time their strong projectiles, e.g. Hold that proc frags, when wings it about to end, cc and shoot.

Shuffle RNG is better than Perfect Evasion. My solution deals with the complaint, while also making the cost/benefit ratio an actual improvement to the DK. I personally feel my proposal is balanced, even if it does involve an RNG (which is part and parcel of much of the game to begin with).

when you dont even play a dk and a everyone who knows dk's tells you that you have no idea what your talking about, maybe take a second to think to yourself, hey ive never played a dk, maybe i have no idea what im talking about.( im assuming you dont play a dk, or you would realise how bad your suggestion is)

dont forget this is a group based AVA combat system. its not designed for duals between every type of class/ build to be perfectly matched in the first place. when you play all classes you see that some things are overpowered against some builds and also under-powered against others, and that is not necessarily a balance problem.
ps good balance does not come from "fixing" that the strategy YOU want to use does not work well against something.

Theres a hole in both your first and last argument. (1) if all those players play dks, then they represent a significant bias in favor of dks and (2) i would hardly consider making range builds not worth using because a single skill negates their worth "good balance"

NBrookus · July 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

Theres a hole in both your first and last argument. (1) if all those players play dks, then they represent a significant bias in favor of dks and (2) i would hardly consider making range builds not worth using because a single skill negates their worth "good balance"

Except that Defense Stance and Eclipse are also counters to ranged play. Why do you want to pick on magicka DKs? Oh right... you only care that Wings (sometimes) reflects physical projectiles.

You want to remove a specific counter to specific skills you want to use. That's not balance. That's a personal preference.

Yusuf · July 2016

hahahaha
haaahahahahahaa
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you should've played this game when it was still sub-based and wings didn't reflect ONLY a maximum of 4 projectiles

yodased · July 2016

Just bring a magic based Templar with you so they can show that pesky dk the power of jesus.

K4RMA · July 2016

Cathexis wrote: »

Just before I say anything, I would like to start by saying that this is not a nerf dks thread. I dont think dks in general are too overpowered.

I'm starting to find, however, that it is really cumbersome to have to work around a build which basically can't include range attacks. I understand I might be biased because I play primarily as a sorc as both stam and mag, but in both cases, making an adequate build for all around fighting basically necessitates that none of your attacks can be projectile based. That means no crystal frags, no overload, no throwing daggers, no poison arrow, no snipe, no silver bolts, no scatter shot, and not a lot of destro staff abilities. While that's the bulk of them I'm not even certain if that is the complete list. It is a bit ridiculous to me that this ability can counter that many abilities, and so aggressively, especially with the removal of double reflect. Running a stam sorc, you are highly dependent on weapon skills and with so many being easily reflected without a counter this seriously limits your options.

I'm just generally wondering if many others experience the same issue with their build.

ITS BROKEN and you want to nerf it even more, typical magicka sorc
Half the time it doesn't even reflect, I'm tempted to take it off my bar

ToRelax · July 2016

.

NBrookus wrote: »

Cathexis wrote: »

Theres a hole in both your first and last argument. (1) if all those players play dks, then they represent a significant bias in favor of dks and (2) i would hardly consider making range builds not worth using because a single skill negates their worth "good balance"

Except that Defense Stance and Eclipse are also counters to ranged play. Why do you want to pick on magicka DKs? Oh right... you only care that Wings (sometimes) reflects physical projectiles.

You want to remove a specific counter to specific skills you want to use. That's not balance. That's a personal preference.

Uhm... actually Wings are on a totally different level than those other two. Defensive Stance can be countered by simple weaving and Eclipse by breaking free. Don't even care when someone uses those against me, wings on the other hand actually make most of my attacks never happen. At least when I'm alone.

Rikumaru · July 2016

Yeah lets nerf all the defensive skills in the entire game.

RoamingRiverElk · July 2016

Rikumaru wrote: »

Yeah lets nerf all the defensive skills in the entire game.

Yeah. No wings, no streak, no cloak. That would be fair!

Or we could just let those skills be...