Did they release any statement on how many people were involved, and how much gold/mats were made?

I just see so many people throwing out numbers, "1000+ exploiters made millions of gold and hundreds of gold mats!"

How do you know that? No one really knows how many people were involved. No one really knows how much anyone made. If people had been doing this for months they seemed to be pretty tight lipped about it.

Sure when you look at the nature of the situation there is the potential that people could have made a lot, but it is all speculation.

When it comes to disciplinary actions, I have heard of people getting permanently banned from the game, though I have not known anyone personally (Picked up the game after console launch). I have heard many times that there seems to be a three strike system in place. Those that exploited have most likely used one of those strikes. It is very likely that this was the 3rd strike for some and they have been banned. Again, no one really knows.

Everyone is saying that this promotes exploits in the future. I would assume that many who have been suspended would realize that this is a mark against their record. If they choose to exploit in the future they risk further marks and more severe punishment, including possible ban.

If you did not exploit this time, maybe you have three strikes to burn. No one really knows though, so proceed with caution.

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

It stinks of favoritism. It looks suspiciously like someone got caught that ZOS can't or won't punish. It is impossible to slap one hand and be harsh with the others so everyone got a slap.

This has totally been a disheartening event imo. Look at the number of people saying they will take advantage next time. It will drive the game down quickly. ZOS should have known better than do it this way.

You're 100% Right. ONE HUNDRED PERCENT RIGHT, its not what you did, its who you are, and the wrong people (or right people depending on how you look at it) got caught so everyone gets off. Because that never happens, like recently right? *cough* account sharing *cough*

#note to self, next time something is exploitable, take a Dev's friend or a twitch streamer.

@ZOS_DaryaK Could you toss in a relevant one about whether this is being followed up on the yellow mats/gold front?

Volkodav wrote: »

gw2only1b14_ESO wrote: »

Did anyone ask @ZOS_RichLambert why they decided to proceed the way they did on this issue with a 3 day band and still tons of the mats and temper?

If it were me,I'd have not banned anyone,but rather just removed the things they shouldnt have gotten.So that when they went ingame they would find out their ill gotten goods had been confiscated,and a note would be in their inbox explaining why.

Of Course thats what should have been done and even then that be a lite sentence on the situation

One thing not much mentioned here is that ZOS had trouble identifying cheaters from legitimate players. They suspended legitimate players too. If ZOS is less than 100% sure about cheaters, i believe it hinders very much them with perma-bans.

I was one of suspended players. But i had very strong evidence about not cheating (and i didn't cheat). The suspension was lifted next day. After i got the suspension, i asked what it was. Because time difference between Europe and US, and they don't seem to have support personnell in EU, i got details about the exploit the next day. I wrote my response and got it lifted soon after that. I did receive an apologization with the lift of suspend and 1500 crowns.

After further review, we are lifting the suspension on this account. We will make sure that this suspension does not count against this account's record in any way.

Please understand i am very hesitant to publish any details about the process. ZOS strictly denies discussion about individual cases. I ask everybody to redirect such requests directly to ZOS.

This part is speculation:
I believe i did three things that made me look as a cheater:
- I use Bank Manager Revived addon, and i transfer all inventory automatically between character and bank. I move all survey maps to one character through my bank. Because it's all automatic, i very often transfer survey maps first to bank automatically and then back manually. So, i think logs show me moving survey maps back and forth, although that happened in Orsinium after i sorted inventory after writs.
- I farm alot, and i had maybe thousands of raw mats in inventory. Since i have reached highest level of crafting, inventory management is very challenging to me, and i use heavily addons like that bank manager to automate everything i can.
- I do alot of writs. All my characters are master crafters in all professions with (nearly) full skill points assigned to crafting. I receive more than full set of maps in one day, and they pile up. I rotate the harvest responsibility to clear out the pile.I have same survey map multiple times in inventory. First is directly, and the rest are inside writ reward boxes. After harvesting an area, i run away a short distance and open one writ box, and the next survey map spawns the same area again. Rinse and repeat. So i was harvesting one area repeatedly.

The exploit was about using Tythis to farm same survey area unlimitedly with one survey map. But ZOS didn't filter exactly the exploit. They identified players with a pattern they hoped would match exploiters. But it wasn't exact. Right now ZOS can't be sure if the identified players are really exploiters. It is a very old western tradition to presume people innocent until proven guilty.

I didn't worry too much about three day suspension. In that sense i can verify it's VERY light punishment, although receiving the email was a shock. But they did threaten with perma-ban, and that was why i made sure they cleared the issue.

I DO support ZOS to identify exploiters. I hope ZOS improves their logs/filtering or whatever they use, so they can really identify them.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Well hey if you appeal and are found not to have done anything wrong then your account wont be wiped. Or your stuff will be replaced. I think they need to use a firm hand here. If you appeal then obviously if you didnt do anything they will know that. So I dont think the whole innocent bystander argument is a good one for not punishing true cheaters.

Slight correction. It's not so much about innocent bystanders, but about ZOS having difficulties with identifying cheaters vs. legitimate players.

Valrien wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Well hey if you appeal and are found not to have done anything wrong then your account wont be wiped. Or your stuff will be replaced. I think they need to use a firm hand here. If you appeal then obviously if you didnt do anything they will know that. So I dont think the whole innocent bystander argument is a good one for not punishing true cheaters.

How about you just don't remove anything at all? It wasn't a big offense, it shouldn't be such a big punishment.

Ever heard of a police officer or a judge giving a lighter sentence for a "first offense"? For all we know, many of these players were first offenders.

Go ahead and ready your torches and pitchforks, I'll start running for the hills while you guys chase me for not joining the witch hunt.

It's pretty standard for an MMO to remove ill gotten goods from exploits. As otherwise you set the precedent that exploiting is good thing as you'll gain from it.

I think the best punishment isn't a ban but to wipe those exploiters acc. So they have no chars and have to start from scratch.

Volkodav wrote: »

Lightninvash wrote: »

I think the best punishment isn't a ban but to wipe those exploiters acc. So they have no chars and have to start from scratch.

Now THAT would be a total deterrent.

yeah they would learn the lesson or quit either way wouldn't need emergency maintenance due to someone trying to blatantly use the system for malicious intent/ personal gain.

that and it'd be easier than trying to track down all the mats and gold gained from the wrong doing.

It is only currency and mats. All of which are consumable. Gold sinks exist aplenty in this game, and the gold mats are consumed in the process of improving gear.

People who are outraged over the effect on "The Market" have not considered that the market is just the collective actions of individual people - and actual real-world white-labcoat brain-scan studies have shown that a LARGE chunk of how we flesh-and-blood people make our buying/selling decisions is based on how we feel. Worded another way - there is a lot of talk about "The Market" being made of rational logic-based decisions, but brain scans of people show that all of that really is just talk. Ask anyone successful in sales, and they will tell you that it is MUCH more important that a customer feels like they got a deal than whether they actually got a deal.

Currency enters character circulation from various places like chests with gold or fences/merchants who give gold for items, and various other such ways. Currency leaves circulation through various outlets such as merchants and crime bounties and various other such ways. The gold amassed by exploiters was not sucked straight from chests, IT WAS ALREADY IN THE ECONOMY IN THE HANDS OF OTHER CHARACTERS and merely shifted from character to character. That's one economic reason why deleting that gold would be a misstep. Sorta like how when someone is successful as a con artist the authorities do not burn the cash - that cash was also already printed and in the wider economy so destroying it would be a misstep.

Now... Regarding the decision to not delete the gold mats themselves... Those will get used up quickly enough. Follow how this works: Say YOU use a bunch of them to upgrade a set of armor, and when that armor is no longer 'TeH Hawtest' for your build you can decon it and you will not get back as many gold mats as you put into it. Right there, YOU removed gold mats from tradeable existence by making the armor gold color, and removed even the gold item from existence by decon, thus making the remaining gold mats even fewer, and according to the so-called laws of supply and demand you made the remaining gold mats more expensive. Gold mats are not a durable good, they are not in the category of refrigerator or automobile, able to be used and resold in their entirety. They are consumed by the upgrade process and leave zero trace of having ever existed after the deconstruct process. They are, economically, a consumable item. Sorta like frozen cheeseburgers - they can be stored in the freezer (bank) for a while, are consumed by the user, and when their usefulness is done the remains are discarded down the drain (toilet). It's not a perfect metaphor, but no metaphor is ever perfect.

In terms of the economy, all these exploiters did was put a lot of a consumable item into circulation. As a consumable item, the large number will work its way through the system and eventually all of the exploited gold mats will be consumed by upgrading or deconning gear.

So, the economy is not ultimately harmed in any manner by this. If it experiences any sort of a significant wobble, that wobble is only temporary and will be fine in time, as the mats work their way through.

I hope that people stop waving the bloody shirt of The Economy. It seems to me that those people are upset because they feel personally wronged, rather than being actually damaged by those exploits.

I couldn't give to craps about the exploiters getting rich. They are only making personal gains, I'm not being affected. The only way it could possibly hurt me is if I buy tempers pff them, oh wait. They sell them cheaper than what regular farmers would sell them for.. Thanks for the deal!

I have lost so much respect for ZOS. At first I thought they are getting ahead of this and addressing the issue. Now I see nothing but cheap gold mats everywhere. I have kicked anyone from my guild that did this and will continue to do so. But my problem is what is a guild supposed to do when other guilds members have taken advantage of this and did not have the items removed. These guilds that have leaders who did this are sitting on HUNDREDS of gold mats. HUNDREDS. This is going to contribute to inflation on the traders. I also find it even more sad that guilds that have hundreds of these mats in there bank are not deleted from the game outright. I cannot fathom why ZOS thought it would be acceptable to ban these people for only 72 hours and then allow them to keep all the mats. Frankly its just bad business.

I also know of many people who did this on alt accounts and then mailed items to there main. Why was this not tracked and both accounts banned?

Why is it that those that did not take advantage of this are now disadvantaged? I see one guild I'm in with literally hundreds of d wax and t alloys as well as kutas. Why not mail those that were not banned a gold amount if you are not intending on removing the mats? Why not offer them anything? I don't feel I'm owed anything but I do feel as if you have spit in the face of all your customers who did play the game as intended and did not cheat. This was not an exploit this was cheating plain and simple and 72 hours is nothing for the amount of mats these people acquired.

Sad really ZOS. really sad. Any respect I had for you has since been lost. I will seriously consider any future purchases what reason do I have to spend money on a game where I will be disadvantaged indirectly by the devs actions.

Moglijuana wrote: »

Sigh, I guess there was no point in helping the Devs out and making them aware of the exploit...Well... Now I can't wait for DB to come out with a bunch of new bugs/exploits. I'm just going to use them all and keep quiet. Screw trying to help the community out, I'll just take ZoS's lead and f**k em right in the arse!

I feel the same way man. reported people for cheating and tried to clean my guild of those that did and have a sense of honor but then I find that none of that matters because they get to keep the stuff anyways.

What sickens me more then anything is the thought that I invested soo much money into this game and yet the dev ZOS doesn't even have the decency to explain there actions or offer us an explanation as to WHY the Mats where not removed from the game.

Could we please get an explanation or something as to why the mats where left in the game? Please!

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

ZENIMAX handled the issue really well.

rewarding exploiters is not a good thing ZOS.

And how do I know? It is quite obvious if people sell materials 2k lower than usual all of the sudden in all zone chats lol.

At least now everyone know what to do the next time such an "opportunity" arises... just hope it doesn't involve a ridiculously expensive NPC

And this is probably why they were not really punished. Can't be punishing the people who pay 50$ for a half functioning convenience item.

Cryptical wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I have some old economics qualifications so I will take a swing....

While the immediate effect may seem good (i.e. Cheaper materials) the long term impact can be compared to printing a bunch of banknotes and just pumping them into the game economy when they should not be there.

It cannot be compared to printing greenbacks because when you use cash you don't have a 90% risk of it disintegrating into dust.
Walk into a store and drop 8 dollars to purchase a widget. Then get back in line to return the widget and get your 8 dollars returned to you. The conversion of 8 dollars into a widget and back doesn't lose any value.
Walk up to a crafting station and drop 8 tempers to purchase gold color for your gear. Then go back to the station and you CANNOT hand back your gold color to receive those 8 tempers returned to you. Best you can hope for is 1 or 2 of your 8 tempers is salvaged from decon. The conversion of 8 tempers into an object and back DOES lose value. You lose nearly all of the value at the crafting station, while you could do the buy/return conversion of $8 to a widget all day long until you die of starvation and NEVER lose value in the process.

Thus, the increased number of tempers is not comparable to printing new currency.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

The result is that there is more game money in circulation but that game money is still going to be spent on a limited supply of goods - gear and mats etc. - so you get inflation in the game economy and that vr16 ring of agility you had your eye on goes up 20k.

No, you swapped the effects backwards. The game money (gold) stayed nearly the same while it was the supply of goods (the gold mats) that increased. That's not price inflation, that's price DEflation.

And STILL you ignore the fact that you are basing this on our real world economy, where our money doesn't disappear when handed to a merchant and doesn't disappear when taxed... But in the game economy the gold DOES disappear from existence when you hand it to a merchant or pay a bounty.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

For the cheater that is fine, he has his extra cash... for the seller of scarce gear that is good, he can charge more.... for everyone else it sucks because goods they could afford before are now more expensive but mobs aren't suddenly dropping more gold... oh, and those cheap mats, they've gone now and even those prices are back up even higher...

Except the number of gold mats increased, therefore it is LESS rare than it used to be, meaning for the seller of (previously) scarce mats it was not good because prices went down - and then only temporarily.

And it is pure speculation that the return to previous levels of gold mats will cause prices to be higher than before. Remember, it was an injection of digital objects, not digital cash... Meaning that people who benefit from cheaper mats right now may well no longer be customers seeking those mats later. Resulting in LESS demand than before. Meaning fewer people willing to pay those previous prices. Meaning the prices from a month or two ago may not be reached again. But, just like your pure speculation this is also pure speculation, and also depends on what Zos does in the meantime.

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

People are always going to play the game market... buying and selling is just another aspect, some enjoy it, others ignore it but as long as it is honest then everyone has the same chance to profit or not.

But exploits like this can hurt everyone except the cheats because it skews prices and causes fake inflation. There is a reason why many capitalist nations can treat market fraud more seriuosly than crimes of violence... breaking the rules of the game hurts the game as a whole...

I get the feeling you follow the chicago school perception of economics - that the supply/demand interaction is entirely controlled by the supply side economics. It isn't going to hold water at this time.

You don't seem to get it... The thing is that with more gold available to exploiters, they will value it less and be willing to drop more of it to get desirable items. People sitting on a pile of gold they can't possibly spend in a lifetime will drop increasing amounts of it, so that shiny rare ring that cost 200k yesterday may cost 500k or 1kk tomorrow, simply because in-game gold lost some of its value. I've seen this happen in other games. It's real. [EDIT to clarify] Maybe the analogy with printing money wasn't the best one. But a large concentration of in-game gold in a restricted class of people can ALSO drive inflation by devaluing the gold for that class, which then impacts the whole community since sellers will take advantage of it.

And The Game Economy isn't even the main reason I get worked up about this. I'm more annoyed about the basic unfairness of rewarding cheaters.