PvE guards again...

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · March 2016

Watching the PTS post I had up hopes for good balanced chances this update so much so that I resubed only to find PvE guards now have reasonably high health but can still hit with 100% your health in one shot and are still unkillable why?

Why keep this in game I really don't want to run every time I see a guard by all rights I should be able to kill them and take the consequences that come with killing guards with ever that may be. Take much of their health while leaving them in God Mode is crazy.

mertusta · March 2016

Welcome to zos logic, they allowed us to attack to guards however we are not allowed to kill them. lol

cote-bmsb16_ESO · March 2016

ZOS hates fun. Thats why we cant kill guards.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2016

I would hope that "Immortal Guards" will be fixed/changed once The Dark Brotherhood releases...

I mean, it's one thing to have to run from the Guards or to have them be unkill-able when you're just a regular character. It's also conceivable to have immortal guards with Thieves Guild, as most Thieves will run from guards rather than engage them.

But the Dark Brotherhood are murders. They kill. For money. And giggles.

If a DB member gets sighted and accosted by a Guard, it's more than likely that said member would add the Guard to his/her kill count rather than flee. It is, after all, what they do.

So I would hope that the Guards become killable when the DB DLC/Base Game Patch comes out, but I'm not going to hold my breath either...

dimensional · March 2016

Because then you'd have groups of people taking out guards in entire zones which would break the risk/reward scenario of the justice system. It's pretty simple. I would be in favor of being able to incapacitate them momentarily through damage though.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

Because then you'd have groups of people taking out guards in entire zones which would break the risk/reward scenario of the justice system. It's pretty simple. I would be in favor of being able to incapacitate them momentarily through damage though.

If that's the only danger to the Guards, I'm OK with that.

If they didn't want to be guards, they should have invested in better knee armor...

Dagoth_Rac · March 2016

I think it would be too easy to cheese the justice system if guards could be killed. What would be consequences of killing a guard? Higher bounty? Who would collect it? Another guard? Just kill that guard, too. Send multiple guards? Kill them all. Send so many guards you cannot defeat them alone? Bring in guild mates to help kill them all. Bring in so many guards that no player group, no matter how big, can kill them? At that point, you have made both yourself and developers jump through a lot of hoops to just end up right back where we started - don't get caught, pay your bounty, or flee.

Menelaos · March 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

But the Dark Brotherhood are murders. They kill. For money. And giggles.

If a DB member gets sighted and accosted by a Guard, it's more than likely that said member would add the Guard to his/her kill count rather than flee. It is, after all, what they do.

Well, yes and no. Or to be more specific: No and no.
The DB does not kill, they carry out ritual assassination contracts (for gold). In the second era even more so than at the time of Skyrim. They are not mindless collateral slaughterers, however, and they also do not kill out of personal motives. I hope Zenimax will take that into account when they design the DB contract mechanics.

If a guard tries to stop them while they carry out their contract, however, I would think they can get quite mean. But it's just not their prime goal to kill for a bodycount.

idk · March 2016

I fail to see the logic where the OP is willing to face the consequences of killing a guard, whatever it may be, but is unwilling to face the consequences of being caught by a guard while having a bounty.

Whatzituyah · March 2016

Again why can't the guards fight Molag Bal? Why do we "Heroes" have to do it if we can die? They can't die and they have a one shot kill move. #zoslogic

Just a thought what if after you kill so many guards a "elite guard" would spawn. Whats the difference? They would be almost impossible to kill and hit like a train also scale to the highest level criminal around where it spawns.

dimensional · March 2016

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Again why can't the guards fight Molag Bal? Why do we "Heroes" have to do it if we can die? They can't die and they have a one shot kill move. #zoslogic

Why does anyone fear death in a world with soul gems? It's a game. Expect game-logic; every single one of them has it.

Thevampirenight · March 2016

They should make them killlable but very hard to do so, and with a very high bounty for doing it, maybe one achievement and title to go with it. Maybe an achievement for shooting one of them in the knee.
Of course the main reason they made them unkillable is they feared that people would exploit this. Maybe change it if one guard dies another one runs up ten seconds later, so you have to run. Guard reinforcements could also be added that show up if the guard is low on health. So basically your not contending with one guard but other guards that run up to help the poor guard. Yes they should be well trained guards but not unkillable.

Gedalya · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

Because then you'd have groups of people taking out guards in entire zones which would break the risk/reward scenario of the justice system. It's pretty simple. I would be in favor of being able to incapacitate them momentarily through damage though.

Arrow to the knee incapacitate skill for the Dark Brotherhood skill line? Thoughts?

Whatzituyah · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Again why can't the guards fight Molag Bal? Why do we "Heroes" have to do it if we can die? They can't die and they have a one shot kill move. #zoslogic

Why does anyone fear death in a world with soul gems? It's a game. Expect game-logic; every single one of them has it.

In that case it sure does a great job about breaking game series immersion thats known for its immersion.

dimensional · March 2016

Whatzituyah wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Again why can't the guards fight Molag Bal? Why do we "Heroes" have to do it if we can die? They can't die and they have a one shot kill move. #zoslogic

Why does anyone fear death in a world with soul gems? It's a game. Expect game-logic; every single one of them has it.

In that case it sure does a great job about breaking game series emersion thats known for its emersion.

I could point out 100 things in every single TES game that breaks immersion (emersion lol).

Whatzituyah · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

dimensional wrote: »

Whatzituyah wrote: »

Again why can't the guards fight Molag Bal? Why do we "Heroes" have to do it if we can die? They can't die and they have a one shot kill move. #zoslogic

Why does anyone fear death in a world with soul gems? It's a game. Expect game-logic; every single one of them has it.

In that case it sure does a great job about breaking game series emersion thats known for its emersion.

I could point out 100 things in every single TES game that breaks immersion (emersion lol).

Does every one of those things have to do With Maiq the Liar?

dimensional · March 2016

No, none of them do. Video games are not accurate simulations of the real world, no matter how hard you try. People should expect games to behave like... well, games. It's kind of unreasonable to pick at every little detail if it breaks immersion, because you can't find a single video game that behaves exactly how the world (any world, even with its own self-consistent internal logic) is supposed to.

Whatzituyah · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

No, none of them do. Video games are not accurate simulations of the real world, no matter how hard you try. People should expect games to behave like... well, games. It's kind of unreasonable to pick at every little detail if it breaks immersion, because you can't find a single video game that behaves exactly how the world (any world, even with its own self-consistent internal logic) is supposed to.

This is true but when you poke your sword at something you expect it to atleast be damaged/wounded.

Dagoth_Rac · March 2016

Thevampirenight wrote: »

They should make them killlable but very hard to do so, and with a very high bounty for doing it, maybe one achievement and title to go with it. Maybe an achievement for shooting one of them in the knee.
Of course the main reason they made them unkillable is they feared that people would exploit this. Maybe change it if one guard dies another one runs up ten seconds later, so you have to run. Guard reinforcements could also be added that show up if the guard is low on health. So basically your not contending with one guard but other guards that run up to help the poor guard. Yes they should be well trained guards but not unkillable.

But "elite guards" and "guard reinforcements" seems to asking for a lot more activity and a lot more stress on servers just to end up right back where we started. At some point, you will be overwhelmed and have to flee to an outlaw refuge. Which is what happens now. Why go through all the trouble of delaying the inevitable? And it has to be inevitable that the bounty be enforced at some point. Otherwise it is just free gold and loot with no risk.

dimensional · March 2016

I agree, that's why I suggested a middle ground; we don't want anything to break the risk/reward of the justice system by having all the guards killed off at any given time by a group of feisty players. So instead, just let them be incapacitated temporarily similar to the unkillable characters in games like Skyrim. When they take 100% of their health in damage, they drop to one knee and have to heal up before they can move or attack again.

Thevampirenight · March 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

They should make them killlable but very hard to do so, and with a very high bounty for doing it, maybe one achievement and title to go with it. Maybe an achievement for shooting one of them in the knee.
Of course the main reason they made them unkillable is they feared that people would exploit this. Maybe change it if one guard dies another one runs up ten seconds later, so you have to run. Guard reinforcements could also be added that show up if the guard is low on health. So basically your not contending with one guard but other guards that run up to help the poor guard. Yes they should be well trained guards but not unkillable.

But "elite guards" and "guard reinforcements" seems to asking for a lot more activity and a lot more stress on servers just to end up right back where we started. At some point, you will be overwhelmed and have to flee to an outlaw refuge. Which is what happens now. Why go through all the trouble of delaying the inevitable? And it has to be inevitable that the bounty be enforced at some point. Otherwise it is just free gold and loot with no risk.

They could also add a much worse punishment for killing guards, if you kill a guard you get a special bounty that will allow them to take gold out of your bank itself, as well as all your tvs stored into it. So they could discourage killing them. Just a suggestion or, they can take all crafting materials you collected, if you can't pay the bounty they will steal items from you.

BalgusFlinn · March 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think it would be too easy to cheese the justice system if guards could be killed. What would be consequences of killing a guard? Higher bounty? Who would collect it? Another guard? Just kill that guard, too. Send multiple guards? Kill them all. Send so many guards you cannot defeat them alone? Bring in guild mates to help kill them all. Bring in so many guards that no player group, no matter how big, can kill them? At that point, you have made both yourself and developers jump through a lot of hoops to just end up right back where we started - don't get caught, pay your bounty, or flee.

Make it so you cannot bank/vendor/assistant. There you go, no more cheese. Kill a guard, no bank for you, until your heat goes down. Unkillable guard, are u kidding me, i took out MOLAG BAL, FOR PEATS SAKE! Should have just sent the guards in i guess!

Whatzituyah · March 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Thevampirenight wrote: »

They should make them killlable but very hard to do so, and with a very high bounty for doing it, maybe one achievement and title to go with it. Maybe an achievement for shooting one of them in the knee.
Of course the main reason they made them unkillable is they feared that people would exploit this. Maybe change it if one guard dies another one runs up ten seconds later, so you have to run. Guard reinforcements could also be added that show up if the guard is low on health. So basically your not contending with one guard but other guards that run up to help the poor guard. Yes they should be well trained guards but not unkillable.

But "elite guards" and "guard reinforcements" seems to asking for a lot more activity and a lot more stress on servers just to end up right back where we started. At some point, you will be overwhelmed and have to flee to an outlaw refuge. Which is what happens now. Why go through all the trouble of delaying the inevitable? And it has to be inevitable that the bounty be enforced at some point. Otherwise it is just free gold and loot with no risk.

You can say that about WoW aswell why kill npcs in WoW when you know reinforcements which are max level btw come and kill you? The answer is its fun to do so even with no rewards.

Universe · March 2016

Thevampirenight wrote: »

They should make them killlable but very hard to do so, and with a very high bounty for doing it, maybe one achievement and title to go with it. Maybe an achievement for shooting one of them in the knee.
Of course the main reason they made them unkillable is they feared that people would exploit this. Maybe change it if one guard dies another one runs up ten seconds later, so you have to run. Guard reinforcements could also be added that show up if the guard is low on health. So basically your not contending with one guard but other guards that run up to help the poor guard. Yes they should be well trained guards but not unkillable.

I agree.
I hope that someday guards will be killable.
The fact they are unkillable isn't even lore wise.
How can a mere guard defeat heroes of great renown with the slightest effort ?

They should be hard to kill(2 bars of difficulty) with 150k-300k health, veteran 16 group bosses.
An experienced and skilled player should be able to solo one of them, but it will be easier to defeat in a small group.
It could be exploited so a short respawn time and reinforcement sounds like a good solution.

The fact that guards are unkillable is one of the main reasons, people refrain from breaking the law.
Invincible guards is just too much of a threat, so the fear of breaking the law is too great.

Uriel_Nocturne · March 2016

Menelaos wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

But the Dark Brotherhood are murders. They kill. For money. And giggles.

If a DB member gets sighted and accosted by a Guard, it's more than likely that said member would add the Guard to his/her kill count rather than flee. It is, after all, what they do.

Well, yes and no. Or to be more specific: No and no.
The DB does not kill, they carry out ritual assassination contracts (for gold). In the second era even more so than at the time of Skyrim. They are not mindless collateral slaughterers, however, and they also do not kill out of personal motives. I hope Zenimax will take that into account when they design the DB contract mechanics.

If a guard tries to stop them while they carry out their contract, however, I would think they can get quite mean. But it's just not their prime goal to kill for a bodycount.

No, you misunderstand me.

I'm not implying that the DB are mindless mass murders. They do indeed perform the ritual murders for the Night Mother and Sithis that has made them so feared. They also don't quit until a contract has been fulfilled. If one Brother/Sister falls, they keep throwing Brothers/Sisters at the target until they're successful.

But it's also well documented in the Lore that they have zero problem killing anyone who gets in their way. Either in fulfilling a contract, or in their getaway after they've killed their target. The Guards in the cities would fall into this category.

Therefore, it's zero stretch of the imagination that if a guard tried to apprehend a Dark Brother/Sister, said assassin would increase their body count by one due to meddling Guard inquiries.

And yes, they do keep a body count. In case you hadn't noticed, the morals and pride of the Brotherhood allows them to employ assassins for whom this number would be important. For bragging rights amongst their colleagues if for no other reasons.

BalgusFlinn · March 2016

Thevampirenight wrote: »

They should make them killlable but very hard to do so, and with a very high bounty for doing it, maybe one achievement and title to go with it. Maybe an achievement for shooting one of them in the knee.
Of course the main reason they made them unkillable is they feared that people would exploit this. Maybe change it if one guard dies another one runs up ten seconds later, so you have to run. Guard reinforcements could also be added that show up if the guard is low on health. So basically your not contending with one guard but other guards that run up to help the poor guard. Yes they should be well trained guards but not unkillable.

This also isnt a bad idea, but no xp/loot for the guards.

Whatzituyah · March 2016

BalgusFlinn wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think it would be too easy to cheese the justice system if guards could be killed. What would be consequences of killing a guard? Higher bounty? Who would collect it? Another guard? Just kill that guard, too. Send multiple guards? Kill them all. Send so many guards you cannot defeat them alone? Bring in guild mates to help kill them all. Bring in so many guards that no player group, no matter how big, can kill them? At that point, you have made both yourself and developers jump through a lot of hoops to just end up right back where we started - don't get caught, pay your bounty, or flee.

Make it so you cannot bank/vendor/assistant. There you go, no more cheese. Kill a guard, no bank for you, until your heat goes down. Unkillable guard, are u kidding me, i took out MOLAG BAL, FOR PEATS SAKE! Should have just sent the guards in i guess!

My argument exactly but it is a game.

Whatzituyah · March 2016

dimensional wrote: »

I agree, that's why I suggested a middle ground; we don't want anything to break the risk/reward of the justice system by having all the guards killed off at any given time by a group of feisty players. So instead, just let them be incapacitated temporarily similar to the unkillable characters in games like Skyrim. When they take 100% of their health in damage, they drop to one knee and have to heal up before they can move or attack again.

I kind of like the idea plot important characters did this in the games.

Forsaken_Toyz · March 2016

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I think it would be too easy to cheese the justice system if guards could be killed. What would be consequences of killing a guard? Higher bounty? Who would collect it? Another guard? Just kill that guard, too. Send multiple guards? Kill them all. Send so many guards you cannot defeat them alone? Bring in guild mates to help kill them all. Bring in so many guards that no player group, no matter how big, can kill them? At that point, you have made both yourself and developers jump through a lot of hoops to just end up right back where we started - don't get caught, pay your bounty, or flee.

Not really. In right system killing guard would be interesting. As soon as you kill a guard, you will get mega bounty and then next guard will summon help, let's say some elite squad, for killing which you will need raid of 30-40 people. Or 5 ppl party for first try. Then you will get super mega bounty and bigger squad. That would be fun.

Also I don't understand, why we can't attack people with bounties over their heads? This would be epic fun. Killed one, grabbed all stolen stuff, fenced it

And get paid by local government for bringing justice.

FleetwoodSmack · March 2016

According to FTC the guard was dead!

20881938318EA478F6DB1A2E822287284D77BB82

AFrostWolf · March 2016

I for one wish that they treated stealing and murder in the traditional Elder Scrolls way.

If you commit a crime but remove the witness you shouldn't get a bounty. If you get a bounty it shouldn't go down in price. You either pay it off or go to jail. Once in jail you are given 1 chance at escaping via stealth/lockpicking. If you fail that you have to "serve your sentence". Serving your sentence can pass the "time" in a short fast forward where your skills decrease/Xp is lost. It would be the class/weapon skill lines that take a hit or it could be in the form of losing champion exp relative to the bounty.