Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I think you guys are overreacting. Anyone who was killing NB without magelight before is still going to kill them now. As a magsorc I struggled to find space on my bar for inner light in PvP. With the update I was hopeful that I could slot it on the back bar and still have the passives active on my main bar.

That is not the case.

Anyone who was not slotting it due to space issues, will still not be slotting it in the Thieves Guild update.

Xeven, I think, is correct here.

In its current state, you would be crazy as a Magicka build to not slot this ability. It will be the most powerful PVP ability in the game. Stam builds will even run it for the Empower and detection ability. Sorcs didn't slot it before because they need entropy for the Empower buff, which they can now drop for this. They also would have to double bar it before, which they no longer do. They will no longer take 5% reduced Magicka, and will get 2% increased Magicka and Mag regen. You will passively get 56% resistance to stealth attacks and immunity to stuns from stealth. You will get a way to expose NB's and other stealthed enemies withing 12 meters.

People didn't have room for it before, but I guarantee they will ALL find room for it now.

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I think you guys are overreacting. Anyone who was killing NB without magelight before is still going to kill them now. As a magsorc I struggled to find space on my bar for inner light in PvP. With the update I was hopeful that I could slot it on the back bar and still have the passives active on my main bar.

That is not the case.

Anyone who was not slotting it due to space issues, will still not be slotting it in the Thieves Guild update.

Xeven, I think, is correct here.

In its current state, you would be crazy as a Magicka build to not slot this ability. It will be the most powerful PVP ability in the game. Stam builds will even run it for the Empower and detection ability. Sorcs didn't slot it before because they need entropy for the Empower buff, which they can now drop for this. They also would have to double bar it before, which they no longer do. They will no longer take 5% reduced Magicka, and will get 2% increased Magicka and Mag regen. You will passively get 56% resistance to stealth attacks and immunity to stuns from stealth. You will get a way to expose NB's and other stealthed enemies withing 12 meters.

People didn't have room for it before, but I guarantee they will ALL find room for it now.

I think that's being a little dramatic... People who were already using it (again... because ALL of you NB kept telling us to) now gain an empower bonus on cast, awesome, now it doesnt feel like a waste of space or JUST a NB counter. It was already providing a 56% damage reduction from stealth, it was also already giving the crit bonus. The part that changed was it no longer removes 5% of max magicka and you have to cast it for the revealing effect. Which, I might add, also protected your allies, but that part seems to be removed. most of what you hate about this ability was already part of it, but now I don't have to take a -5% magicka just to deal with NBs, and I'm no longer losing out on an empower bonus for slotting it instead of Entropy just because I need a counter to NBs.

As a Magicka User, what other single ability provides more utility and buffs/debuffs than Radiant Magelight in PVP (in its PTS form)?

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I think you guys are overreacting. Anyone who was killing NB without magelight before is still going to kill them now. As a magsorc I struggled to find space on my bar for inner light in PvP. With the update I was hopeful that I could slot it on the back bar and still have the passives active on my main bar.

That is not the case.

Anyone who was not slotting it due to space issues, will still not be slotting it in the Thieves Guild update.

Xeven, I think, is correct here.

In its current state, you would be crazy as a Magicka build to not slot this ability. It will be the most powerful PVP ability in the game. Stam builds will even run it for the Empower and detection ability. Sorcs didn't slot it before because they need entropy for the Empower buff, which they can now drop for this. They also would have to double bar it before, which they no longer do. They will no longer take 5% reduced Magicka, and will get 2% increased Magicka and Mag regen. You will passively get 56% resistance to stealth attacks and immunity to stuns from stealth. You will get a way to expose NB's and other stealthed enemies withing 12 meters.

People didn't have room for it before, but I guarantee they will ALL find room for it now.

I think that's being a little dramatic... People who were already using it (again... because ALL of you NB kept telling us to) now gain an empower bonus on cast, awesome, now it doesnt feel like a waste of space or JUST a NB counter. It was already providing a 56% damage reduction from stealth, it was also already giving the crit bonus. The part that changed was it no longer removes 5% of max magicka and you have to cast it for the revealing effect. Which, I might add, also protected your allies, but that part seems to be removed. most of what you hate about this ability was already part of it, but now I don't have to take a -5% magicka just to deal with NBs, and I'm no longer losing out on an empower bonus for slotting it instead of Entropy just because I need a counter to NBs.

As a Magicka User, what other single ability provides more utility and buffs/debuffs than Radiant Magelight in PVP (in its PTS form)?

Again, it was doing most of that, already. Is what you're really angry at, the empower effect? or the fact it'll keep you from cloaking for 5 seconds? Here's the ability you're so scared of in it's current state:

Summon a mote of magelight to enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by 10.
The mote also reveals hidden or invisible enemies, prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 50% for you and nearby allies.
While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5%

Now here's where it's fixed:

[Activate to] Summon a mote of magelight to reveal hidden or invisible enemies.[up to 12m for 5 seconds]
[while slotted] enhance your spellcasting, granting you Major Prophecy, which increases your Spell Critical rating by 10. prevents being stunned by stealth attacks, and reduces damage from stealth attacks by 56% for you and nearby allies.
While toggled, your Max Magicka is reduced by 5% [Casting has a 100% chance of granting Empower, increasing the damage of your next attack by 20% as long as it's activated within 5 seconds.]

So tell me what your real issue is with the ability.

They're just crying because they can't 1-shot gank PvErs in the sewers anymore, lol. Nothing more than that, really.

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Imagine if they changed Expert Hunter to:

1) When slotted gives 10% weapon crit just (already part of the ability)
then added
2)When slotted gives 56% damage reduction from initial hit when attacked
3)Adds 2% Max Stam and 2% Stam Regen
4)When activated, attacks on enemies within 12 meters ignore damage shields for 5 seconds
5)When activated grants empower

Would people think this was OP? Or would people think this is a reasonable counter to shields?

Every stamina build would run this and so would a good amount of Magicka builds.

I am not saying cloak doesn't need changes (maybe add a cost increase when spammed). And yes, camo hunter needs to be fixed (people have asked for this for a long time, including me). But just making these changes would balance things instead of eliminating stealth from the game.

Or make one morph of magelight provide damage reduction and increased detect, but only give crit and empower to the other morph which doesnt have a 56% damage reduction and stun immunity from stealth. Make it so it wouldn't be such an obvious choice that every Magicka build will run in PVP..

You keep comparing the new inner light to other abilities.... and this latest version is worse than the last. It'd be like me saying "Imagine if they changed cloak to [insert innerlight abilites with cloak's effects] it's not exactly a valid comparison.

As it's been stated here, a lot of people are over-reacting, ambush and lotus fan have a 22m range! at best radiant magelight is going to give us 12, so, you'll still have 10m worth of room to attack from stealth. It just means now you wont be able to immediately cloak RIGHT after the initial attack to do it again. This is even assuming the person you're attacking even has radiant cast. It'd be just as easy to move your gank spot just a bit further back from the keep, where a person would think it's safe enough not to warrant a re-cast. Who's stopping while on horseback to recast it? hardly anyone... and that's when you get them. The rest of the bonuses afforded by magelight were pretty much already part of the ability. Now it's just an empower proc with a useful cloak check.

Do you remember when us Sorcs would burst damage, shield up, burst damage, streak away, regain resource and repeat? wasn't that annoying? that's literally what the NBs were doing and instead of nerfing your ability by adding an additional cost per cast (which wouldnt have worked, it'd be like adding additional cost to cast hardened ward) they just made one of the counters more appealing so more people would slot it.

Here's where you're wrong (at least according to the tooltip).

"The Radiant Magelight morph will continue to prevent you from being stunned by stealth attacks, and will reduce damage from stealth attacks while slotted as a morph effect. Activating it also increases the radius of the activated reveal to 12 meters, and reduces the cost."

What part of this says anything about range of attacks? While slotted means it does not have to be activated for the affect. This will be in affect as long as it is on your bar whether you are on foot or on your horse. This is 56% damage resistance and stun immunity from ANY stealth attack, whether its a Snipe/Ambush from 28 meters, or Surprise attack from 1 meter.

and that's literally what the non PTS version of radiant already does. So how is that any different? they changed "while toggled" to "while slotted" and when it was a toggle effect it was on both bars, and constantly on, and all you NB told us to use the skill, you're complaining about an aspect that was already in effect.

The only major difference here is 2 fold:

1. No visual queue that someone has this buff effect ( the biggest issue imo)
2. The ability can now lock out stealth AND invisibility for 5 seconds indefinitely, with smart usage. (this one requires more testing before I say anything)

The fact that it is "while slotted" is fine with me. However to promote dynamic and tactful gameplay everyone needs to know these buffs are active, as it has always been. So while the skill hasn't changed much, it's impact on gameplay has changed drastically.

I'm actually all for folks having counters to stealth play. I feel it makes my ganks/encounters much more interesting and dynamic. But we all should know if someone is immune to stuns or reducing your damage by 56%.

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I think you guys are overreacting. Anyone who was killing NB without magelight before is still going to kill them now. As a magsorc I struggled to find space on my bar for inner light in PvP. With the update I was hopeful that I could slot it on the back bar and still have the passives active on my main bar.

That is not the case.

Anyone who was not slotting it due to space issues, will still not be slotting it in the Thieves Guild update.

Xeven, I think, is correct here.

In its current state, you would be crazy as a Magicka build to not slot this ability. It will be the most powerful PVP ability in the game. Stam builds will even run it for the Empower and detection ability. Sorcs didn't slot it before because they need entropy for the Empower buff, which they can now drop for this. They also would have to double bar it before, which they no longer do. They will no longer take 5% reduced Magicka, and will get 2% increased Magicka and Mag regen. You will passively get 56% resistance to stealth attacks and immunity to stuns from stealth. You will get a way to expose NB's and other stealthed enemies withing 12 meters.

People didn't have room for it before, but I guarantee they will ALL find room for it now.

You people that are flipping out over magelight empower need to imply some logic and look at it objectively. Empower is only good if it is activated with a high damage ability. (Wrecking blow/Ambush)

Ask yourself this. Would you rather spend two global cooldowns and get a 20% damage bonus on a single ability, or would you rather spend two global cooldowns on two full damage abilities?

The optimal answer is that it's almost always better to spend those cooldowns on damage abilities. The empower on magelight is almost worthless. That magelight buffed frag you just casted was a DPS loss. You're gimping yourself.

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

@catalyst10e

Heres the problem:

In it's current state, people need to make a choice. They can choose to have the Radiant Morph which gives reduced damage from stealth and detection, at the expense of dealing damage (-5% Magicka). They also do not have Empower, so they need to slot Entropy for that. They also need to choose if they are willing to double bar the ability to actually make it effective as a toggle, unless they are willing to toggle after every bar swap. This forces people to make decisions: Do I have enough bar space to double bar this? Do I have enough bar space to have Magelight and Entropy (Empower)? Am I willing to give up some damage (Inner Light), for some defense(Radiant Magelight)?

These choices lead some to choose inner light over radiant magelight to increase damage over increasing defense. Or they may decide to not even slot it, and slot Entropy instead to get empower. Either way, a small percentage of people choose the Radiant Magelight morph and run it constantly in PVP.

Now with this change you take away all those choices. You eliminate the need to double bar it, and can just put it on your main damage bar, and then throw your Major Sorcery Buff on your back bar. By giving it Empower you no longer need space for Magelight and Entropy, so Entropy will be dropped. You buff the detect feature (12 meter radius and force players out of stealth for 5 seconds) to make it more appealing in general. You turn Radiant Magelight in to a "must-have" ability for every Magicka user in PVP since it only takes up one space and does so much.

So now, you will have most if not all Magicka users (assume 50% of players) running with the ability, and with it they will have 56% resistance to STEALTH attacks (Not to be confused with CLOAK)

Stealth isn't just an NB thing, it's an element of the game. Two races (Khajiit and Wood Elf) are designed as stealth characters with bonuses to stealth damage, and can capitalize off of stealth damage as ANY class (Not just NB). Stealth is just fundamentally a part of combat, and even without racial or class damage bonuses their are inherent advantages to attacking from stealth.

When you create an environment where the majority of people are 56% resistant to stealth attacks, you ruin an entire element of the game. Why would anyone, ever, attack from stealth if you have a 50% chance of doing 56% less damage than if you were not in stealth?

Some people don't like gankers or a stealthy play-style. Other people come to this game exactly for that type of play-style. Because cloak was somewhat OP, should they create an ability that ruins stealth?

I don't like getting ganked anymore than the next guy. At the same time, I get a certain satisfaction from killing a ganker in combat. Its just part of the game, and surprise can be an exciting element to the game.

If they are going to do this, then maybe they should just eliminate the entire mechanic of stealth, and let everyone just run around exposed with no element of surprise. No one will ever be ganked again, and people can just line up shoulder to shoulder and fight head on with never having to worry about some ganker lurking around. Maybe some would enjoy this more....Maybe a lot of people would get bored and find a different game to play.

There's hardly a choice to be made there, the real choice is "do you PVE or PVP? because if it's PVP, congrats you get an ability that not only reduces your max magicka, (your primary stat) but you'll also need to sacrifice DPS by putting it on both bars if you want to avoid getting ganked. or just pick the inner light, and enjoy a bit extra damage, but still have it take up 2 slots. Especially for a sorc who already has tons of toggle effects, if it wasn't for overloads third bar, I'd effectively have 1 bar with hardened ward, frags, and something to proc frag, while the rest is taken up. No other class in the game restricts you this much just to deal with them. Good on you if your build allowed you to slot it twice, most do not, and if anything this change should make you happier you no longer HAVE to slot it twice and open your build up to other options as well.

even if 100% of the playerbase decided to slot this skill, so what? It hasn't stopped you before from ganking. Have any of you honestly seen a glowing ball surrounding someone and thought "I'll let this one pass". I've never read a forum post complaining that RML having a reduce stealth damage ability being OP, I've only ever read all the NB yelling there's tons of counters to people who cloak and use stealth. One of those counters now doesnt require I slot it twice and make me weaker. I'd be inclined to agree with your point if it was more widely used in other skills, such as DK's reflect, if slotting relfect had to be on both bars, and/or reduced your max stamina, you'd have a case. However, RML was the best option we had against stealth and it made you way weaker to use it, how's that fair? What other skill that's designed to be a counter, has that kind of a drawback?

I disagree that this will somehow replace entropy. Entropy still has it's uses. For instance, the healing aspect, the empower, I'd like to see if someone can confirm stacking elemental expert and thaumaturge will cause ti to deal more damage since it's both magic damage and a DoT, aren't DoTs able to get around shields now? (going off memory) so it will still have it's place, possibly in different types of builds. NOW the real new choice for magelight is, do you want a 5m radius and more magicka, or 12m radius and no additional magicka? Magelight is the stealth counter, it should counter stealth. I will agree 5 seconds is a bit of a long time to not allow any cloaking/stealthing, but that just means you guys will have to adjust like the rest of us did.

You're complaining about having 56% of your damage reduced to a person who has had 100% of my damage reduced when I empower my frag at a DK or sword and board and watch it fly back at me. I have no sympathy for your loss of damage when I've literally been killed by my own skills. AND I know what you're going to say, that it's just a DK thing, and that it'd be like 50% of the player base having that skill, it's not the same, yatta yatta yatta, this is my own personal feelings on the matter.

You act like they are in fact removing the entire mechanic.... it's just your bonus stealth damage on the magicka side of the player base... Like I said, I have to be careful to not just blindly attack a DK, or anyone running sword and board... welcome to the gameplay the rest of us have been playing. We all agree ganking isn't fun on the receiving end, but that's a direct aspect of stealth and not cloak. a surprise attack is still possible, again, you're just going to lose out on some of your bonus damage, against some of the playerbase. It sounds like you're mad more people will be slotting it, when its exactly the outcome NBs asked for. They told everyone, use RML, this is what it would feel like if everyone used it, this is exactly the compromise we all discussed that didnt involve a direct nerf to cloak, or your other abilities.

Xeniph wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Imagine if they changed Expert Hunter to:

1) When slotted gives 10% weapon crit just (already part of the ability)
then added
2)When slotted gives 56% damage reduction from initial hit when attacked
3)Adds 2% Max Stam and 2% Stam Regen
4)When activated, attacks on enemies within 12 meters ignore damage shields for 5 seconds
5)When activated grants empower

Would people think this was OP? Or would people think this is a reasonable counter to shields?

Every stamina build would run this and so would a good amount of Magicka builds.

I am not saying cloak doesn't need changes (maybe add a cost increase when spammed). And yes, camo hunter needs to be fixed (people have asked for this for a long time, including me). But just making these changes would balance things instead of eliminating stealth from the game.

Or make one morph of magelight provide damage reduction and increased detect, but only give crit and empower to the other morph which doesnt have a 56% damage reduction and stun immunity from stealth. Make it so it wouldn't be such an obvious choice that every Magicka build will run in PVP..

You keep comparing the new inner light to other abilities.... and this latest version is worse than the last. It'd be like me saying "Imagine if they changed cloak to [insert innerlight abilites with cloak's effects] it's not exactly a valid comparison.

As it's been stated here, a lot of people are over-reacting, ambush and lotus fan have a 22m range! at best radiant magelight is going to give us 12, so, you'll still have 10m worth of room to attack from stealth. It just means now you wont be able to immediately cloak RIGHT after the initial attack to do it again. This is even assuming the person you're attacking even has radiant cast. It'd be just as easy to move your gank spot just a bit further back from the keep, where a person would think it's safe enough not to warrant a re-cast. Who's stopping while on horseback to recast it? hardly anyone... and that's when you get them. The rest of the bonuses afforded by magelight were pretty much already part of the ability. Now it's just an empower proc with a useful cloak check.

Do you remember when us Sorcs would burst damage, shield up, burst damage, streak away, regain resource and repeat? wasn't that annoying? that's literally what the NBs were doing and instead of nerfing your ability by adding an additional cost per cast (which wouldnt have worked, it'd be like adding additional cost to cast hardened ward) they just made one of the counters more appealing so more people would slot it.

Here's where you're wrong (at least according to the tooltip).

"The Radiant Magelight morph will continue to prevent you from being stunned by stealth attacks, and will reduce damage from stealth attacks while slotted as a morph effect. Activating it also increases the radius of the activated reveal to 12 meters, and reduces the cost."

What part of this says anything about range of attacks? While slotted means it does not have to be activated for the affect. This will be in affect as long as it is on your bar whether you are on foot or on your horse. This is 56% damage resistance and stun immunity from ANY stealth attack, whether its a Snipe/Ambush from 28 meters, or Surprise attack from 1 meter.

and that's literally what the non PTS version of radiant already does. So how is that any different? they changed "while toggled" to "while slotted" and when it was a toggle effect it was on both bars, and constantly on, and all you NB told us to use the skill, you're complaining about an aspect that was already in effect.

The only major difference here is 2 fold:

1. No visual queue that someone has this buff effect ( the biggest issue imo)
2. The ability can now lock out stealth AND invisibility for 5 seconds indefinitely, with smart usage. (this one requires more testing before I say anything)

The fact that it is "while slotted" is fine with me. However to promote dynamic and tactful gameplay everyone needs to know these buffs are active, as it has always been. So while the skill hasn't changed much, it's impact on gameplay has changed drastically.

I'm actually all for folks having counters to stealth play. I feel it makes my ganks/encounters much more interesting and dynamic. But we all should know if someone is immune to stuns or reducing your damage by 56%.

You have at least, the best argument against the change, in that I sort-of agree, not being able to see specifically who has it is a bit unfair. I will however counter that point with what I mentioned earlier, about DKs, as a Sorc, I can't tell who's a DK right off the bat from a distance, nor do I know if they've got reflect slotted. Werewolves and vamps have no visual queue for who's slotted camo hunter. Theres no visual queue when someone is in stealth and gets the bonus damages from being in stealth (not that there should be on that one) I'm just saying there's a lot of abilities that don't give a visual queue, and in the case of camo hunter, not only do you not see if they have it, it's telling them who they can deal more damage to.

To your second point, I feel like this could push the class into some more diversity, and weed out those who use cloaking as a crutch. I've fought some amazing NB who rarely used cloak. mix it up, rapid maneuver away, get some harness magicka, immovable, bone shield, healing ward action going... vigor is going to be easier to get now, caltrops snare, fear, maybe now we'll see some interesting shadow image builds.

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

@catalyst10e

Heres the problem:

In it's current state, people need to make a choice. They can choose to have the Radiant Morph which gives reduced damage from stealth and detection, at the expense of dealing damage (-5% Magicka). They also do not have Empower, so they need to slot Entropy for that. They also need to choose if they are willing to double bar the ability to actually make it effective as a toggle, unless they are willing to toggle after every bar swap. This forces people to make decisions: Do I have enough bar space to double bar this? Do I have enough bar space to have Magelight and Entropy (Empower)? Am I willing to give up some damage (Inner Light), for some defense(Radiant Magelight)?

These choices lead some to choose inner light over radiant magelight to increase damage over increasing defense. Or they may decide to not even slot it, and slot Entropy instead to get empower. Either way, a small percentage of people choose the Radiant Magelight morph and run it constantly in PVP.

Now with this change you take away all those choices. You eliminate the need to double bar it, and can just put it on your main damage bar, and then throw your Major Sorcery Buff on your back bar. By giving it Empower you no longer need space for Magelight and Entropy, so Entropy will be dropped. You buff the detect feature (12 meter radius and force players out of stealth for 5 seconds) to make it more appealing in general. You turn Radiant Magelight in to a "must-have" ability for every Magicka user in PVP since it only takes up one space and does so much.

So now, you will have most if not all Magicka users (assume 50% of players) running with the ability, and with it they will have 56% resistance to STEALTH attacks (Not to be confused with CLOAK)

Stealth isn't just an NB thing, it's an element of the game. Two races (Khajiit and Wood Elf) are designed as stealth characters with bonuses to stealth damage, and can capitalize off of stealth damage as ANY class (Not just NB). Stealth is just fundamentally a part of combat, and even without racial or class damage bonuses their are inherent advantages to attacking from stealth.

When you create an environment where the majority of people are 56% resistant to stealth attacks, you ruin an entire element of the game. Why would anyone, ever, attack from stealth if you have a 50% chance of doing 56% less damage than if you were not in stealth?

Some people don't like gankers or a stealthy play-style. Other people come to this game exactly for that type of play-style. Because cloak was somewhat OP, should they create an ability that ruins stealth?

I don't like getting ganked anymore than the next guy. At the same time, I get a certain satisfaction from killing a ganker in combat. Its just part of the game, and surprise can be an exciting element to the game.

If they are going to do this, then maybe they should just eliminate the entire mechanic of stealth, and let everyone just run around exposed with no element of surprise. No one will ever be ganked again, and people can just line up shoulder to shoulder and fight head on with never having to worry about some ganker lurking around. Maybe some would enjoy this more....Maybe a lot of people would get bored and find a different game to play.

There's hardly a choice to be made there, the real choice is "do you PVE or PVP? because if it's PVP, congrats you get an ability that not only reduces your max magicka, (your primary stat) but you'll also need to sacrifice DPS by putting it on both bars if you want to avoid getting ganked. or just pick the inner light, and enjoy a bit extra damage, but still have it take up 2 slots. Especially for a sorc who already has tons of toggle effects, if it wasn't for overloads third bar, I'd effectively have 1 bar with hardened ward, frags, and something to proc frag, while the rest is taken up. No other class in the game restricts you this much just to deal with them. Good on you if your build allowed you to slot it twice, most do not, and if anything this change should make you happier you no longer HAVE to slot it twice and open your build up to other options as well.

even if 100% of the playerbase decided to slot this skill, so what? It hasn't stopped you before from ganking. Have any of you honestly seen a glowing ball surrounding someone and thought "I'll let this one pass". I've never read a forum post complaining that RML having a reduce stealth damage ability being OP, I've only ever read all the NB yelling there's tons of counters to people who cloak and use stealth. One of those counters now doesnt require I slot it twice and make me weaker. I'd be inclined to agree with your point if it was more widely used in other skills, such as DK's reflect, if slotting relfect had to be on both bars, and/or reduced your max stamina, you'd have a case. However, RML was the best option we had against stealth and it made you way weaker to use it, how's that fair? What other skill that's designed to be a counter, has that kind of a drawback?

I disagree that this will somehow replace entropy. Entropy still has it's uses. For instance, the healing aspect, the empower, I'd like to see if someone can confirm stacking elemental expert and thaumaturge will cause ti to deal more damage since it's both magic damage and a DoT, aren't DoTs able to get around shields now? (going off memory) so it will still have it's place, possibly in different types of builds. NOW the real new choice for magelight is, do you want a 5m radius and more magicka, or 12m radius and no additional magicka? Magelight is the stealth counter, it should counter stealth. I will agree 5 seconds is a bit of a long time to not allow any cloaking/stealthing, but that just means you guys will have to adjust like the rest of us did.

You're complaining about having 56% of your damage reduced to a person who has had 100% of my damage reduced when I empower my frag at a DK or sword and board and watch it fly back at me. I have no sympathy for your loss of damage when I've literally been killed by my own skills. AND I know what you're going to say, that it's just a DK thing, and that it'd be like 50% of the player base having that skill, it's not the same, yatta yatta yatta, this is my own personal feelings on the matter.

You act like they are in fact removing the entire mechanic.... it's just your bonus stealth damage on the magicka side of the player base... Like I said, I have to be careful to not just blindly attack a DK, or anyone running sword and board... welcome to the gameplay the rest of us have been playing. We all agree ganking isn't fun on the receiving end, but that's a direct aspect of stealth and not cloak. a surprise attack is still possible, again, you're just going to lose out on some of your bonus damage, against some of the playerbase. It sounds like you're mad more people will be slotting it, when its exactly the outcome NBs asked for. They told everyone, use RML, this is what it would feel like if everyone used it, this is exactly the compromise we all discussed that didnt involve a direct nerf to cloak, or your other abilities.

Xeniph wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Imagine if they changed Expert Hunter to:

1) When slotted gives 10% weapon crit just (already part of the ability)
then added
2)When slotted gives 56% damage reduction from initial hit when attacked
3)Adds 2% Max Stam and 2% Stam Regen
4)When activated, attacks on enemies within 12 meters ignore damage shields for 5 seconds
5)When activated grants empower

Would people think this was OP? Or would people think this is a reasonable counter to shields?

Every stamina build would run this and so would a good amount of Magicka builds.

I am not saying cloak doesn't need changes (maybe add a cost increase when spammed). And yes, camo hunter needs to be fixed (people have asked for this for a long time, including me). But just making these changes would balance things instead of eliminating stealth from the game.

Or make one morph of magelight provide damage reduction and increased detect, but only give crit and empower to the other morph which doesnt have a 56% damage reduction and stun immunity from stealth. Make it so it wouldn't be such an obvious choice that every Magicka build will run in PVP..

You keep comparing the new inner light to other abilities.... and this latest version is worse than the last. It'd be like me saying "Imagine if they changed cloak to [insert innerlight abilites with cloak's effects] it's not exactly a valid comparison.

As it's been stated here, a lot of people are over-reacting, ambush and lotus fan have a 22m range! at best radiant magelight is going to give us 12, so, you'll still have 10m worth of room to attack from stealth. It just means now you wont be able to immediately cloak RIGHT after the initial attack to do it again. This is even assuming the person you're attacking even has radiant cast. It'd be just as easy to move your gank spot just a bit further back from the keep, where a person would think it's safe enough not to warrant a re-cast. Who's stopping while on horseback to recast it? hardly anyone... and that's when you get them. The rest of the bonuses afforded by magelight were pretty much already part of the ability. Now it's just an empower proc with a useful cloak check.

Do you remember when us Sorcs would burst damage, shield up, burst damage, streak away, regain resource and repeat? wasn't that annoying? that's literally what the NBs were doing and instead of nerfing your ability by adding an additional cost per cast (which wouldnt have worked, it'd be like adding additional cost to cast hardened ward) they just made one of the counters more appealing so more people would slot it.

Here's where you're wrong (at least according to the tooltip).

"The Radiant Magelight morph will continue to prevent you from being stunned by stealth attacks, and will reduce damage from stealth attacks while slotted as a morph effect. Activating it also increases the radius of the activated reveal to 12 meters, and reduces the cost."

What part of this says anything about range of attacks? While slotted means it does not have to be activated for the affect. This will be in affect as long as it is on your bar whether you are on foot or on your horse. This is 56% damage resistance and stun immunity from ANY stealth attack, whether its a Snipe/Ambush from 28 meters, or Surprise attack from 1 meter.

and that's literally what the non PTS version of radiant already does. So how is that any different? they changed "while toggled" to "while slotted" and when it was a toggle effect it was on both bars, and constantly on, and all you NB told us to use the skill, you're complaining about an aspect that was already in effect.

The only major difference here is 2 fold:

1. No visual queue that someone has this buff effect ( the biggest issue imo)
2. The ability can now lock out stealth AND invisibility for 5 seconds indefinitely, with smart usage. (this one requires more testing before I say anything)

The fact that it is "while slotted" is fine with me. However to promote dynamic and tactful gameplay everyone needs to know these buffs are active, as it has always been. So while the skill hasn't changed much, it's impact on gameplay has changed drastically.

I'm actually all for folks having counters to stealth play. I feel it makes my ganks/encounters much more interesting and dynamic. But we all should know if someone is immune to stuns or reducing your damage by 56%.

You have at least, the best argument against the change, in that I sort-of agree, not being able to see specifically who has it is a bit unfair. I will however counter that point with what I mentioned earlier, about DKs, as a Sorc, I can't tell who's a DK right off the bat from a distance, nor do I know if they've got reflect slotted. Werewolves and vamps have no visual queue for who's slotted camo hunter. Theres no visual queue when someone is in stealth and gets the bonus damages from being in stealth (not that there should be on that one) I'm just saying there's a lot of abilities that don't give a visual queue, and in the case of camo hunter, not only do you not see if they have it, it's telling them who they can deal more damage to.

To your second point, I feel like this could push the class into some more diversity, and weed out those who use cloaking as a crutch. I've fought some amazing NB who rarely used cloak. mix it up, rapid maneuver away, get some harness magicka, immovable, bone shield, healing ward action going... vigor is going to be easier to get now, caltrops snare, fear, maybe now we'll see some interesting shadow image builds.

I'm not sure what you mean with Wings or Camo hunter, as you can clearly see if those abilities are active. Wings not only has an obvious cast, but a visible frontal red shield while it's active. Camo only get's bonus damage when the buff is active (casted) and also adds a very visible whitish effect on weapons. Unless you meant the crit bonus "while slotted" in which case I am not asking that either magelight show the spell crit buff. I can clearly see that with my addon already.

So while I see what you are trying to get at, all of the situations you cited currently do have some sort of visual before you engage combat if the effect is active. Aside from the bonus to being in stealth, but we can both agree it would defeat the purpose of stealth if you saw them every time without active participation.

ProbablePaul wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Anyone test Inner Light on the PTS?

That patch notes made it sound like it is no longer a toggle, and gives Spell Crit and 5% magicka for being slotted...

So what does the actual ability do now when you activate it?

One of my biggest frustrations with this is that there is no limitation on use whatsoever; it's not common to have 10 nightblades standing together, but for the sake of example, consider that there are a group of people standing together and stealthed. One person could stealth/cloak into a group of people that are hidden/stealthed, use this one skill and reveal EVERYONE in stealth in that radius, and prevent one class' use of a primary ability, nightblades using cloak.

What's going to prevent people from just running 8 meters apart and spamming this ability all over the place? This is completely negating the purpose of being a stealthing class, or playing with the intention of being a stealther.

For the sake of argument on your example, any group in stealth that lets anyone, single person or group, get within 12m and hasn't yet attacked them deserves to not be allowed to stealth for 5 seconds... Worse if its just a pure DPS who is using inner light as its only an 8m radius... Steel tornado is 11m in radius, anyone who is getting into steel tornado range is going to get hit with something and its going to knock then out of stealth anyways.

I just want to get this across.

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Imagine if they changed Expert Hunter to:

1) When slotted gives 10% weapon crit just (already part of the ability)
then added
2)When slotted gives 56% damage reduction from initial hit when attacked
3)Adds 2% Max Stam and 2% Stam Regen
4)When activated, attacks on enemies within 12 meters ignore damage shields for 5 seconds
5)When activated grants empower

Would people think this was OP? Or would people think this is a reasonable counter to shields?

Every stamina build would run this and so would a good amount of Magicka builds.

I am not saying cloak doesn't need changes (maybe add a cost increase when spammed). And yes, camo hunter needs to be fixed (people have asked for this for a long time, including me). But just making these changes would balance things instead of eliminating stealth from the game.

Or make one morph of magelight provide damage reduction and increased detect, but only give crit and empower to the other morph which doesnt have a 56% damage reduction and stun immunity from stealth. Make it so it wouldn't be such an obvious choice that every Magicka build will run in PVP..

You keep comparing the new inner light to other abilities.... and this latest version is worse than the last. It'd be like me saying "Imagine if they changed cloak to [insert innerlight abilites with cloak's effects] it's not exactly a valid comparison.

As it's been stated here, a lot of people are over-reacting, ambush and lotus fan have a 22m range! at best radiant magelight is going to give us 12, so, you'll still have 10m worth of room to attack from stealth. It just means now you wont be able to immediately cloak RIGHT after the initial attack to do it again. This is even assuming the person you're attacking even has radiant cast. It'd be just as easy to move your gank spot just a bit further back from the keep, where a person would think it's safe enough not to warrant a re-cast. Who's stopping while on horseback to recast it? hardly anyone... and that's when you get them. The rest of the bonuses afforded by magelight were pretty much already part of the ability. Now it's just an empower proc with a useful cloak check.

Do you remember when us Sorcs would burst damage, shield up, burst damage, streak away, regain resource and repeat? wasn't that annoying? that's literally what the NBs were doing and instead of nerfing your ability by adding an additional cost per cast (which wouldnt have worked, it'd be like adding additional cost to cast hardened ward) they just made one of the counters more appealing so more people would slot it.

Here's where you're wrong (at least according to the tooltip).

"The Radiant Magelight morph will continue to prevent you from being stunned by stealth attacks, and will reduce damage from stealth attacks while slotted as a morph effect. Activating it also increases the radius of the activated reveal to 12 meters, and reduces the cost."

What part of this says anything about range of attacks? While slotted means it does not have to be activated for the affect. This will be in affect as long as it is on your bar whether you are on foot or on your horse. This is 56% damage resistance and stun immunity from ANY stealth attack, whether its a Snipe/Ambush from 28 meters, or Surprise attack from 1 meter.

and that's literally what the non PTS version of radiant already does. So how is that any different? they changed "while toggled" to "while slotted" and when it was a toggle effect it was on both bars, and constantly on, and all you NB told us to use the skill, you're complaining about an aspect that was already in effect.

You could tell who was actually using RML though and not attempt to kill them. Now it's just a guessing game. This is the real issue. You could avoid RML but now you have to gamble.

I don't really care about the mage light change's. 5 second's not being able to cloak is not an issue when you can heal and cc. The cost of proc'ing magelight is 2.5k on a light Armour build which is still pretty significant. It's also another action someone has to proc while im applying pressure. Not a big issue.


No RML indication is a bit of an issue for me. The little Orb should be present while slotted and have another effect to show it's been activated.

ProbablePaul wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Anyone test Inner Light on the PTS?

That patch notes made it sound like it is no longer a toggle, and gives Spell Crit and 5% magicka for being slotted...

So what does the actual ability do now when you activate it?

One of my biggest frustrations with this is that there is no limitation on use whatsoever; it's not common to have 10 nightblades standing together, but for the sake of example, consider that there are a group of people standing together and stealthed. One person could stealth/cloak into a group of people that are hidden/stealthed, use this one skill and reveal EVERYONE in stealth in that radius, and prevent one class' use of a primary ability, nightblades using cloak.

What's going to prevent people from just running 8 meters apart and spamming this ability all over the place? This is completely negating the purpose of being a stealthing class, or playing with the intention of being a stealther.

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

The problem is it has so many upsides and no downsides to running it, so 50% or more of PVPers will slot it.

It used to provide 10% crit, reduce magic by 5%, and provide stealth detect and 56% resistance from stealth attacks. This made players choose between this morph which is more defensive and reduces your damage, and caused many to opt for Inner Light which gave crit and 5% more magicka, but did not have the stealth detect/56% reduced stealth damage. It was also a toggle, which meant you needed to double bar it in most situations, unless you were very good at reactivating when bar swapping which deterred alot of players from using it to preserve bar space.

Now you don't take reduced magic, they buffed the detect ability, it gives Empower, and you no longer have to toggle/double bar it. Its going to be too good in PVP to not put it on your bar.

This will effect way more than just NB's. Any attacks from stealth are reduced 56% for any class. No one will even want to attack from stealth anymore if there is a 50%+ chance the guy on the receiving end has 56% resistance to that attack. Why even go into stealth if chances are your attack will be gimped compared to being out of stealth?

This is a great point, and it makes me think I should reroll a dunmer or something. The changes to stamina, and stealth traits kind of gimp bosmer as a whole. With how spammable magelight is going to be, cloak isn't going to be much of an option, people are going to find ways to exploit the *** out of this. Both of the traits i chose bosmer for are not very useful anymore; stamina NB builds could go by the wayside, and stealth damage is going to be hindered by this immensely if everyone is running it, which they will be. I wonder how khajiits feel about this?

Tyrion87 wrote: »

No, when the changes are eventually applied, the balance will be finally restored.
For a long time we've been experiencing a huge advantage of NBs over any other class. The cloak + ambush are (soon: were) the pain in the arse of 30% of players playing classes other than the NB. Yeah, approx. 70% of chars I see in PvP (especially in Imperial City) are the NBs (check the polls on the forum). This fact just speaks for itself: this class is now the easiest-to-play and the most OP. It is obvious that it needs a nerf to restore the balance to the game (or rather to PvP). It's also understandable that people who play the NBs are opposing the changes but it's just inevitable. That issue has been talked about for a long time.
The changes made to magelight are really a clever way to do so. NBs will be still attractive though. The stealth detection from inner light will require its cast so basically the NBs can hide behind the cloak just before the first attack which is enough.

So, have 2 slots taken up just so you can execute a stealthed critical attack? ***, if that's the case, make cloak last ten seconds.

Consider too that they are increasing sprint speed from 30% to 40% as well. Imagine everyone in the area spreading out and spamming this ability. There won't be much of a point in using cloak anymore. Not to mention, stealth detection radius is so retardedly large that anytime someone is even seen in stealth, everyone will start spamming this ability. Stealth is going to be obviated, to a point that it might only be useful in PvE, or hiding at a distance - which anyone can do. What class am I playing again? 'Dark sorcerer' or maybe a 'dark mage'? I thought I was a stealthing class.


ZOS, if you're going to do this, fix abilities that allow classes to perma stun, and maybe a couple of other things. Make us more of a stealthing class, not less of one.

Possible solutions, or just my suggestions:

• Give this ability a major cooldown; 20+ seconds.
• Make other people in the vicinity unable to use the ability for a period, when someone else near them has used it, to prevent spamming.
• If you're gonna remove the usefulness of cloak altogether; Give nightblades stronger detection radius passives to make it easier to stay hidden UNTIL we're revealed. As it stands stealth is already weak, this change completely destroys it. I am all about preventing cloak spam, but damnit, let me be a stealther who can stay hidden, until I am revealed.
• Give us the ability to resist the ability, don't make it work 100% of the time, make it work 50% of the time.
• Make the duration of the lasting effects randomized between 1 and 5 seconds.

The most frustrating part about this whole change is that there are methods to combat cloak spammers, but people don't know how to defend against it. In my opinion, the fix for that is education, not changing a class.

So many tears in this post, I'll just do you a favour and tell you what to do like the NB's love to do on live, L2P.
Magelight is fine the way it is atm in the pts, just learn to play and adjust.

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

I just want to get this across.

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

catalyst10e wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Imagine if they changed Expert Hunter to:

1) When slotted gives 10% weapon crit just (already part of the ability)
then added
2)When slotted gives 56% damage reduction from initial hit when attacked
3)Adds 2% Max Stam and 2% Stam Regen
4)When activated, attacks on enemies within 12 meters ignore damage shields for 5 seconds
5)When activated grants empower

Would people think this was OP? Or would people think this is a reasonable counter to shields?

Every stamina build would run this and so would a good amount of Magicka builds.

I am not saying cloak doesn't need changes (maybe add a cost increase when spammed). And yes, camo hunter needs to be fixed (people have asked for this for a long time, including me). But just making these changes would balance things instead of eliminating stealth from the game.

Or make one morph of magelight provide damage reduction and increased detect, but only give crit and empower to the other morph which doesnt have a 56% damage reduction and stun immunity from stealth. Make it so it wouldn't be such an obvious choice that every Magicka build will run in PVP..

You keep comparing the new inner light to other abilities.... and this latest version is worse than the last. It'd be like me saying "Imagine if they changed cloak to [insert innerlight abilites with cloak's effects] it's not exactly a valid comparison.

As it's been stated here, a lot of people are over-reacting, ambush and lotus fan have a 22m range! at best radiant magelight is going to give us 12, so, you'll still have 10m worth of room to attack from stealth. It just means now you wont be able to immediately cloak RIGHT after the initial attack to do it again. This is even assuming the person you're attacking even has radiant cast. It'd be just as easy to move your gank spot just a bit further back from the keep, where a person would think it's safe enough not to warrant a re-cast. Who's stopping while on horseback to recast it? hardly anyone... and that's when you get them. The rest of the bonuses afforded by magelight were pretty much already part of the ability. Now it's just an empower proc with a useful cloak check.

Do you remember when us Sorcs would burst damage, shield up, burst damage, streak away, regain resource and repeat? wasn't that annoying? that's literally what the NBs were doing and instead of nerfing your ability by adding an additional cost per cast (which wouldnt have worked, it'd be like adding additional cost to cast hardened ward) they just made one of the counters more appealing so more people would slot it.

Here's where you're wrong (at least according to the tooltip).

"The Radiant Magelight morph will continue to prevent you from being stunned by stealth attacks, and will reduce damage from stealth attacks while slotted as a morph effect. Activating it also increases the radius of the activated reveal to 12 meters, and reduces the cost."

What part of this says anything about range of attacks? While slotted means it does not have to be activated for the affect. This will be in affect as long as it is on your bar whether you are on foot or on your horse. This is 56% damage resistance and stun immunity from ANY stealth attack, whether its a Snipe/Ambush from 28 meters, or Surprise attack from 1 meter.

and that's literally what the non PTS version of radiant already does. So how is that any different? they changed "while toggled" to "while slotted" and when it was a toggle effect it was on both bars, and constantly on, and all you NB told us to use the skill, you're complaining about an aspect that was already in effect.

You could tell who was actually using RML though and not attempt to kill them. Now it's just a guessing game. This is the real issue. You could avoid RML but now you have to gamble.

I don't really care about the mage light change's. 5 second's not being able to cloak is not an issue when you can heal and cc. The cost of proc'ing magelight is 2.5k on a light Armour build which is still pretty significant. It's also another action someone has to proc while im applying pressure. Not a big issue.


No RML indication is a bit of an issue for me. The little Orb should be present while slotted and have another effect to show it's been activated.

Oh come now, have you ever honestly seen the glowing ball and just let them pass? As a sorc who slotted this skill already, I can tell you I was still jumped all the time.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO wrote: »

ProbablePaul wrote: »

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

Anyone test Inner Light on the PTS?

That patch notes made it sound like it is no longer a toggle, and gives Spell Crit and 5% magicka for being slotted...

So what does the actual ability do now when you activate it?

One of my biggest frustrations with this is that there is no limitation on use whatsoever; it's not common to have 10 nightblades standing together, but for the sake of example, consider that there are a group of people standing together and stealthed. One person could stealth/cloak into a group of people that are hidden/stealthed, use this one skill and reveal EVERYONE in stealth in that radius, and prevent one class' use of a primary ability, nightblades using cloak.

What's going to prevent people from just running 8 meters apart and spamming this ability all over the place? This is completely negating the purpose of being a stealthing class, or playing with the intention of being a stealther.

MrTarkanian48 wrote: »

The problem is it has so many upsides and no downsides to running it, so 50% or more of PVPers will slot it.

It used to provide 10% crit, reduce magic by 5%, and provide stealth detect and 56% resistance from stealth attacks. This made players choose between this morph which is more defensive and reduces your damage, and caused many to opt for Inner Light which gave crit and 5% more magicka, but did not have the stealth detect/56% reduced stealth damage. It was also a toggle, which meant you needed to double bar it in most situations, unless you were very good at reactivating when bar swapping which deterred alot of players from using it to preserve bar space.

Now you don't take reduced magic, they buffed the detect ability, it gives Empower, and you no longer have to toggle/double bar it. Its going to be too good in PVP to not put it on your bar.

This will effect way more than just NB's. Any attacks from stealth are reduced 56% for any class. No one will even want to attack from stealth anymore if there is a 50%+ chance the guy on the receiving end has 56% resistance to that attack. Why even go into stealth if chances are your attack will be gimped compared to being out of stealth?

This is a great point, and it makes me think I should reroll a dunmer or something. The changes to stamina, and stealth traits kind of gimp bosmer as a whole. With how spammable magelight is going to be, cloak isn't going to be much of an option, people are going to find ways to exploit the *** out of this. Both of the traits i chose bosmer for are not very useful anymore; stamina NB builds could go by the wayside, and stealth damage is going to be hindered by this immensely if everyone is running it, which they will be. I wonder how khajiits feel about this?

Tyrion87 wrote: »

No, when the changes are eventually applied, the balance will be finally restored.
For a long time we've been experiencing a huge advantage of NBs over any other class. The cloak + ambush are (soon: were) the pain in the arse of 30% of players playing classes other than the NB. Yeah, approx. 70% of chars I see in PvP (especially in Imperial City) are the NBs (check the polls on the forum). This fact just speaks for itself: this class is now the easiest-to-play and the most OP. It is obvious that it needs a nerf to restore the balance to the game (or rather to PvP). It's also understandable that people who play the NBs are opposing the changes but it's just inevitable. That issue has been talked about for a long time.
The changes made to magelight are really a clever way to do so. NBs will be still attractive though. The stealth detection from inner light will require its cast so basically the NBs can hide behind the cloak just before the first attack which is enough.

So, have 2 slots taken up just so you can execute a stealthed critical attack? ***, if that's the case, make cloak last ten seconds.

Consider too that they are increasing sprint speed from 30% to 40% as well. Imagine everyone in the area spreading out and spamming this ability. There won't be much of a point in using cloak anymore. Not to mention, stealth detection radius is so retardedly large that anytime someone is even seen in stealth, everyone will start spamming this ability. Stealth is going to be obviated, to a point that it might only be useful in PvE, or hiding at a distance - which anyone can do. What class am I playing again? 'Dark sorcerer' or maybe a 'dark mage'? I thought I was a stealthing class.


ZOS, if you're going to do this, fix abilities that allow classes to perma stun, and maybe a couple of other things. Make us more of a stealthing class, not less of one.

Possible solutions, or just my suggestions:

• Give this ability a major cooldown; 20+ seconds.
• Make other people in the vicinity unable to use the ability for a period, when someone else near them has used it, to prevent spamming.
• If you're gonna remove the usefulness of cloak altogether; Give nightblades stronger detection radius passives to make it easier to stay hidden UNTIL we're revealed. As it stands stealth is already weak, this change completely destroys it. I am all about preventing cloak spam, but damnit, let me be a stealther who can stay hidden, until I am revealed.
• Give us the ability to resist the ability, don't make it work 100% of the time, make it work 50% of the time.
• Make the duration of the lasting effects randomized between 1 and 5 seconds.

The most frustrating part about this whole change is that there are methods to combat cloak spammers, but people don't know how to defend against it. In my opinion, the fix for that is education, not changing a class.

So many tears in this post, I'll just do you a favour and tell you what to do like the NB's love to do on live, L2P.
Magelight is fine the way it is atm in the pts, just learn to play and adjust.

Sorta like how all the Sorcs were with crittable shields? And that change made it in didn't it? I'd be a bit careful with the l2p spam for the moment. It's a bit early.

Jules wrote: »

Sorry kids, every skill and every build needs a counter.

Ganky NB, meet Inner Light.

I'm guessing that I could probably be your grandfather in a bunch of states!

Cloak/Stealth already has so many counters. That's not the issue here. RM already had a stealth counter built into it. But you had to pick offense or defense for the morph. Making the base activate a very potent anti stealth/cloak counter is just bad design.

Xeniph wrote: »

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Sorry kids, every skill and every build needs a counter.

Ganky NB, meet Inner Light.

I'm guessing that I could probably be your grandfather in a bunch of states!

Cloak/Stealth already has so many counters. That's not the issue here. RM already had a stealth counter built into it. But you had to pick offense or defense for the morph. Making the base activate a very potent anti stealth/cloak counter is just bad design.

Jules knows this is over the top. And if everyone were to be honest, they all do. No visual queue and a 5 second skill lockout, is the wrong direction this needed to go. This won't make it to live without an adjustment or 2.

Well, if all skills should have visuals when active then I should see a visual whenever cloak is active on someone, right?
Just so all skills got some visual, can't be fair to have cloak be an exception, right?
As otherwise It'll be unfair as it got no visuals.