Not enough resource management for Stamina players in PvE trials/dungeons

BugCollector · October 2015

As in the title. For example, in Sanctum Ophidia, once you have like 4 or more stamina players it becomes impossible to keep their stamina resources up, since (at the Serpent) you can only throw so many spears.

My suggestion is to make the other (useless) morph from Elemental drain a skill that gives Stamina back instead of Magicka.

Van_0S · October 2015

Well, now your noticing it?
They nerf the whole stamina, for no reason.

Xantaria · October 2015

just use heavy attacks

Kuratius · October 2015

I think that's what evil hunter, master resto staves and the redguard race are for.

Tavore1138 · October 2015

Sadly OP this is, at least in part, the result of the roll dodge nerf you were very vocal in obtaining in the first place - many people, myself included, warned that this and the other stamina nerfs would have unintended consequences in PvE content because of the importance of being able to quickly get out of the way of various boss mechanics.

Zinaroth · October 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Sadly OP this is, at least in part, the result of the roll dodge nerf you were very vocal in obtaining in the first place - many people, myself included, warned that this and the other stamina nerfs would have unintended consequences in PvE content because of the importance of being able to quickly get out of the way of various boss mechanics.

This has nothing to do with raid groups not being able to keep stamina DPSers rescources up while having ton of possibilities to feed magicka users the rescource they need to keep DPSing.

Kuratius wrote: »

I think that's what evil hunter, master resto staves and the redguard race are for.

Can't expect everyone who goes stamina to be Redguards and the stamina gain from master staff is minor to say the least.

Xantaria wrote: »

just use heavy attacks

Yeah imagina if we would start telling that to magicka users aswell. They cry even when we ask them to keep Elemental Drain up themselves.

Tavore1138 · October 2015

Zinaroth wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Sadly OP this is, at least in part, the result of the roll dodge nerf you were very vocal in obtaining in the first place - many people, myself included, warned that this and the other stamina nerfs would have unintended consequences in PvE content because of the importance of being able to quickly get out of the way of various boss mechanics.

This has nothing to do with raid groups not being able to keep stamina DPSers rescources up while having ton of possibilities to feed magicka users the rescource they need to keep DPSing.

Kuratius wrote: »

I think that's what evil hunter, master resto staves and the redguard race are for.

Can't expect everyone who goes stamina to be Redguards and the stamina gain from master staff is minor to say the least.

Xantaria wrote: »

just use heavy attacks

Yeah imagina if we would start telling that to magicka users aswell. They cry even when we ask them to keep Elemental Drain up themselves.

It really does have a lot to do with it actually - prior to changes stamina builds were pretty much able to keep our own resources going so temps needed to chuck spears for tanks and maybe run restoring aura for the group and not a lot else for the stamina folks. The various rises in stamina costs and reduction in stamina regen have simply made this a problem where it was not before.

AhPook_Is_Here · October 2015

Drag a lamia to the dps stack and pop it, then use repentance on the bodies of your group, then rez them really quick with kagrenic's set.

Starshadw · October 2015

This is the big problem - and big inequality - between magicka and stamina, and why I wish they hadn't started tweaking their system so as to allow for "stacking" builds.

Because stamina is the resource that MUST be used for things like roll-dodging and breaking free, as it stands, any player who chooses to stack stamina over magicka is going to have far more difficulty than a player who chooses to stack magicka over stamina, especially in long fights, because they have no choice but to use their skill resource for basic maneuvers.

About the only way to fix this would be to add in a third resource - one used solely for things like sprinting, roll-dodge, and breaking free. Perhaps based off of the number of points a player puts in Health in terms of boosting the number past the amount one gets from normal level progression. Adding in a third resource would then allow stamina builds to do what magicka builds can already do now: save their skill resource for actual skills.

dodgehopper_ESO · October 2015

Starshadw wrote: »

This is the big problem - and big inequality - between magicka and stamina, and why I wish they hadn't started tweaking their system so as to allow for "stacking" builds.

Because stamina is the resource that MUST be used for things like roll-dodging and breaking free, as it stands, any player who chooses to stack stamina over magicka is going to have far more difficulty than a player who chooses to stack magicka over stamina, especially in long fights, because they have no choice but to use their skill resource for basic maneuvers.

About the only way to fix this would be to add in a third resource - one used solely for things like sprinting, roll-dodge, and breaking free. Perhaps based off of the number of points a player puts in Health in terms of boosting the number past the amount one gets from normal level progression. Adding in a third resource would then allow stamina builds to do what magicka builds can already do now: save their skill resource for actual skills.

This reiterates a point I've been making a while. I have a topic on the matter actually:
forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/211441/a-suggestion-towards-balance-between-health-magicka-and-stamina#latest

Zinaroth · October 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

It really does have a lot to do with it actually - prior to changes stamina builds were pretty much able to keep our own resources going so temps needed to chuck spears for tanks and maybe run restoring aura for the group and not a lot else for the stamina folks. The various rises in stamina costs and reduction in stamina regen have simply made this a problem where it was not before.

As far as I know there were no changes to stamina costs or nerfs to reduction possibilities.
Besides you didn't mention these in your first comment, only dodge rolling.
Furthermore dodge roll still costs the same, it is only increased if you dodge roll again after four seconds, if you need to dodge roll this much in dungeons or trials you or your group is doing something wrong.

No proper healing templar runs Restoring Aura, they go for the Repentance morph, since the buff from Restoring Aura doesn't stack with regeneration from potions. They are the same buffs.

Prior to whatever change has come since Trials were introduced keeping stamina up was a problem if you wanted to do good DPS. I have been raiding Trials since they came out at the highest level (so competing on trial leaderboards), and magicka users have always been able to be assisted with magicka rescource constantly through Mystic Orb which affects entire raid, Siphon Spirit which affects entire raid, Elemental Drain which effects entire raid or even back in 1.5 with Spell Symmetry spamming. Our only choise for stamina users have always been Luminous/Blazing Spear spamming which can only be used by one guy or Repentance which only hits 6 people, so you just pop it and pray it hits the stamina guys. Not to mention it needs dead mobs and some of the adds on trial fights can't be Repentanced.

But once again I reiterate; this has nothing do do with the nerf to dodging which was very much needed for PvP just like the nerf to permanently blocking.

I think you're taking an unconsequential problem and trying to link it to something you have an opinion on should be changed. The two are not related. If you feel the dodge roll nerf was over the top that is fair enough but it is not related to the subject OP posted.

BEZDNA · October 2015

If you have good support templar with you who gives you spears and repetance you will never have any stam issues eaven with full weapon damage jewely + use pots on CD.

Zinaroth · October 2015

BEZDNA wrote: »

If you have good support templar with you who gives you spears and repetance you will never have any stam issues eaven with full weapon damage jewely + use pots on CD.

Depends on your race choise, but you're mostly correct. However with Spears and Repentance as the only options, this become such a bigger chore in Trials than keeping magicka users full on rescources. During group content like dungeons keeping stamina users full on stamina if they know what they are doing isn't really a problem indeed.

BugCollector · October 2015

Zinaroth wrote: »

BEZDNA wrote: »

If you have good support templar with you who gives you spears and repetance you will never have any stam issues eaven with full weapon damage jewely + use pots on CD.

Depends on your race choise, but you're mostly correct. However with Spears and Repentance as the only options, this become such a bigger chore in Trials than keeping magicka users full on rescources. During group content like dungeons keeping stamina users full on stamina if they know what they are doing isn't really a problem indeed.

Exactly

Tavore1138 · October 2015

Zinaroth wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

It really does have a lot to do with it actually - prior to changes stamina builds were pretty much able to keep our own resources going so temps needed to chuck spears for tanks and maybe run restoring aura for the group and not a lot else for the stamina folks. The various rises in stamina costs and reduction in stamina regen have simply made this a problem where it was not before.

As far as I know there were no changes to stamina costs or nerfs to reduction possibilities.
Besides you didn't mention these in your first comment, only dodge rolling.
Furthermore dodge roll still costs the same, it is only increased if you dodge roll again after four seconds, if you need to dodge roll this much in dungeons or trials you or your group is doing something wrong.

No proper healing templar runs Restoring Aura, they go for the Repentance morph, since the buff from Restoring Aura doesn't stack with regeneration from potions. They are the same buffs.

Prior to whatever change has come since Trials were introduced keeping stamina up was a problem if you wanted to do good DPS. I have been raiding Trials since they came out at the highest level (so competing on trial leaderboards), and magicka users have always been able to be assisted with magicka rescource constantly through Mystic Orb which affects entire raid, Siphon Spirit which affects entire raid, Elemental Drain which effects entire raid or even back in 1.5 with Spell Symmetry spamming. Our only choise for stamina users have always been Luminous/Blazing Spear spamming which can only be used by one guy or Repentance which only hits 6 people, so you just pop it and pray it hits the stamina guys. Not to mention it needs dead mobs and some of the adds on trial fights can't be Repentanced.

But once again I reiterate; this has nothing do do with the nerf to dodging which was very much needed for PvP just like the nerf to permanently blocking.

I think you're taking an unconsequential problem and trying to link it to something you have an opinion on should be changed. The two are not related. If you feel the dodge roll nerf was over the top that is fair enough but it is not related to the subject OP posted.

Well, if we are talking specifics just one example of a place I do find the dodge roll hurts is on Manti... If you get the rings then you need to dodge roll out, personally I do this twice before running out of the third, you then need a block so no regen and then if you are doing the no hole version you need another sprint and roll.... 3 rolls, sprints and blocks with raised costs and reduced regen does make a difference and that's running 36k stamina and around 1.5k regen.

S1ipperyJim · October 2015

It's frankly idiotic to have casting of skills use the same pool of resources as movement, blocking, break free, and roll dodge, compared with magicka which is reserved purely for casting. Add to this the unbalanced zero stamina regen while blocking and dodge roll fatigue and yes it isn't really balanced right now for stam users.

Tavore1138 · October 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

It really does have a lot to do with it actually - prior to changes stamina builds were pretty much able to keep our own resources going so temps needed to chuck spears for tanks and maybe run restoring aura for the group and not a lot else for the stamina folks. The various rises in stamina costs and reduction in stamina regen have simply made this a problem where it was not before.

As far as I know there were no changes to stamina costs or nerfs to reduction possibilities.
Besides you didn't mention these in your first comment, only dodge rolling.
Furthermore dodge roll still costs the same, it is only increased if you dodge roll again after four seconds, if you need to dodge roll this much in dungeons or trials you or your group is doing something wrong.

No proper healing templar runs Restoring Aura, they go for the Repentance morph, since the buff from Restoring Aura doesn't stack with regeneration from potions. They are the same buffs.

Prior to whatever change has come since Trials were introduced keeping stamina up was a problem if you wanted to do good DPS. I have been raiding Trials since they came out at the highest level (so competing on trial leaderboards), and magicka users have always been able to be assisted with magicka rescource constantly through Mystic Orb which affects entire raid, Siphon Spirit which affects entire raid, Elemental Drain which effects entire raid or even back in 1.5 with Spell Symmetry spamming. Our only choise for stamina users have always been Luminous/Blazing Spear spamming which can only be used by one guy or Repentance which only hits 6 people, so you just pop it and pray it hits the stamina guys. Not to mention it needs dead mobs and some of the adds on trial fights can't be Repentanced.

But once again I reiterate; this has nothing do do with the nerf to dodging which was very much needed for PvP just like the nerf to permanently blocking.

I think you're taking an unconsequential problem and trying to link it to something you have an opinion on should be changed. The two are not related. If you feel the dodge roll nerf was over the top that is fair enough but it is not related to the subject OP posted.

Well, if we are talking specifics just one example of a place I do find the dodge roll hurts is on Manti... If you get the rings then you need to dodge roll out, personally I do this twice before running out of the third, you then need a block so no regen and then if you are doing the no hole version you need another sprint and roll.... 3 rolls, sprints and blocks with raised costs and reduced regen does make a difference and that's running 36k stamina and around 1.5k regen.

Now I don't do epic Hodor level DPS but good enough to be running SO and hard modes, but pre-IC I was always able to sustain stamina DPS between potions, cost reduction enchants and points in Warlord (and I have around 350 cp so not crazy numbers there either).

Since IC I struggle more even with higher regen.

Zinaroth · October 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

It really does have a lot to do with it actually - prior to changes stamina builds were pretty much able to keep our own resources going so temps needed to chuck spears for tanks and maybe run restoring aura for the group and not a lot else for the stamina folks. The various rises in stamina costs and reduction in stamina regen have simply made this a problem where it was not before.

As far as I know there were no changes to stamina costs or nerfs to reduction possibilities.
Besides you didn't mention these in your first comment, only dodge rolling.
Furthermore dodge roll still costs the same, it is only increased if you dodge roll again after four seconds, if you need to dodge roll this much in dungeons or trials you or your group is doing something wrong.

No proper healing templar runs Restoring Aura, they go for the Repentance morph, since the buff from Restoring Aura doesn't stack with regeneration from potions. They are the same buffs.

Prior to whatever change has come since Trials were introduced keeping stamina up was a problem if you wanted to do good DPS. I have been raiding Trials since they came out at the highest level (so competing on trial leaderboards), and magicka users have always been able to be assisted with magicka rescource constantly through Mystic Orb which affects entire raid, Siphon Spirit which affects entire raid, Elemental Drain which effects entire raid or even back in 1.5 with Spell Symmetry spamming. Our only choise for stamina users have always been Luminous/Blazing Spear spamming which can only be used by one guy or Repentance which only hits 6 people, so you just pop it and pray it hits the stamina guys. Not to mention it needs dead mobs and some of the adds on trial fights can't be Repentanced.

But once again I reiterate; this has nothing do do with the nerf to dodging which was very much needed for PvP just like the nerf to permanently blocking.

I think you're taking an unconsequential problem and trying to link it to something you have an opinion on should be changed. The two are not related. If you feel the dodge roll nerf was over the top that is fair enough but it is not related to the subject OP posted.

Well, if we are talking specifics just one example of a place I do find the dodge roll hurts is on Manti... If you get the rings then you need to dodge roll out, personally I do this twice before running out of the third, you then need a block so no regen and then if you are doing the no hole version you need another sprint and roll.... 3 rolls, sprints and blocks with raised costs and reduced regen does make a difference and that's running 36k stamina and around 1.5k regen.

There is no reason at all to dodge roll on the World Breaker mechanic in SO, your group is using a flawed tactic then. At most sprinting could be a good idea, and that's only for 2-3 seconds each World Breaker. The blocking can be quite penalizing though indeed, but you can also just use a defensive class ability that uses magicka instead, then you won't need to block unless your health is super low.

BugCollector · October 2015

Oh, and btw, the useless Energy Orb should increase stamina regen on synergy activation, just like its counterpart, Mystic Orb.

What do you think?

Zinaroth · October 2015

BugCollector wrote: »

Oh, and btw, the useless Energy Orb should increase stamina regen on synergy activation, just like its counterpart, Mystic Orb.

What do you think?

And Spear should give everyone stamina who stands in it when it is picked up, including the caster.

BugCollector · October 2015

Zinaroth wrote: »

BugCollector wrote: »

Oh, and btw, the useless Energy Orb should increase stamina regen on synergy activation, just like its counterpart, Mystic Orb.

What do you think?

And Spear should give everyone stamina who stands in it when it is picked up, including the caster.

Good idea

ADarklore · October 2015

Kuratius wrote: »

I think that's what ... the redguard race are for.

Or Bosmer: 21% Stamina Regen and +3% Stamina. With Redguard you're stuck only using melee attacks to regen Stamina and then only once every 5/s, but with Bosmer, you get that large Stamina regen with melee OR range.

Jeckll · October 2015

First off, if you have Stamina issues in Sanctum Ophidia, you have:

. bad Templars (sry mates, love you all)
. bad resource management
. low CP
. enchanted all Weapon Dmg on Jewelry instead of trying some Cost Reduction

You have to roll dodge a lot? In SO? Where? I think I completed Hard mode a billion times and I never have to roll dodge. Only exceptions: I mess up or someone else messes up. Solution is not to buff Stamina Recovery, but to stop messing up! As others mentioned here, there are tactics without having to spend your primary resource for defenses. It's not a Stamina issue.

You block all the time vs trash packs? Why? try to block when it counts, not because you are lazy.
Repentance is the 1win button vs trash packs. it's free, it's great, it instantly refills my stamina.
Also dont blindly spamm Steel Tornado but make use of Synergies as well.

Vs Single Target bosses, Spears are great, but you can also resort to Rapid Strikes if you dont have a lot of CP yet. You can use in infinitely without Stamina issues. You might get lower DPS but it's better than Heavy Attacks, right?

In general, yes - please give us more options to sustain as Stamina users as we are quite dependant on Templars while Magicka Users can run with any class healer.

But just because something is a bit harder doesnt mean it's not fair. "impossible to keep... up" is just a bit too much imho.

Tankqull · October 2015

i might be a heretic here but what about actually having some setbonis used for stamina reg and a few jewel anchants with cost reduction or reg as you can easily match the same number in weapon dmg as caster have spelldmg while having significant amounts of stamina reg (does not count for tanks though but they have other options than can be used)

Zinaroth · October 2015

Tankqull wrote: »

i might be a heretic here but what about actually having some setbonis used for stamina reg and a few jewel anchants with cost reduction or reg as you can easily match the same number in weapon dmg as caster have spelldmg while having significant amounts of stamina reg (does not count for tanks though but they have other options than can be used)

This is pretty much not an option because if you want to compete with magicka DPS (who can go all out spell damage because we can spoon feed them magicka) you have to...

Jeckll wrote: »

enchanted all Weapon Dmg on Jewelry instead of trying some Cost Reductionquote

Which is why cost reduction on jewelry isn't an option.

So in general:

Jeckll wrote: »

yes - please give us more options to sustain as Stamina users as we are quite dependant on Templars while Magicka Users can run with any class healer.
But just because something is a bit harder doesnt mean it's not fair. "impossible to keep... up" is just a bit too much imho

As I pointed out earlier in the thread aswell.

Jeckll · October 2015

Zinaroth wrote: »

This is pretty much not an option because if you want to compete with magicka DPS (who can go all out spell damage because we can spoon feed them magicka) you have to...

Personal opinions are neither facts nor arguments.

Zinaroth · October 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

This is pretty much not an option because if you want to compete with magicka DPS (who can go all out spell damage because we can spoon feed them magicka) you have to...

Personal opinions are neither facts nor arguments.

This not a personal opinion, it is a known fact.
Ask anyone in Hodor.
If you want to compete on the highest level as stamina you cannot invest in rescource management if there is an option to go for more offense.
They can be fed Spears but this is much more bothersome than throwing an Orb that affects 6 people or keeping a debuff up on the boss.

BugCollector · October 2015

Zinaroth wrote: »

Jeckll wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

This is pretty much not an option because if you want to compete with magicka DPS (who can go all out spell damage because we can spoon feed them magicka) you have to...

Personal opinions are neither facts nor arguments.

This not a personal opinion, it is a known fact.
Ask anyone in Hodor.
If you want to compete on the highest level as stamina you cannot invest in rescource management if there is an option to go for more offense.
They can be fed Spears but this is much more bothersome than throwing an Orb that affects 6 people or keeping a debuff up on the boss.

Finally someone who walks in Hermaeus Mora's footsteps!

Jeckll · October 2015

Zinaroth wrote: »

This not a personal opinion, it is a known fact.
Ask anyone in Hodor.
If you want to compete on the highest level as stamina you cannot invest in rescource management if there is an option to go for more offense.
They can be fed Spears but this is much more bothersome than throwing an Orb that affects 6 people or keeping a debuff up on the boss.

So your guild is defining what is "fact" now?
Didnt know you are any more accomplished in Trials than the other raid guilds. I give you that in Single Target encounters, Magicka does have an edge with certain classes but it'S not because of sustain.

Any Redguard can keep up a Single Target Rotation with 3x Weapon Damage and without relying on spears. Just as Magicka DPS has to choose a certain race for maximum efficiancy, so does Stamina DPS.

As I said, I'd love to have more options to get Stamina back, so I'm surely not the guy who wouldnt love it. Just your tone is a bit to drastic...and known Hodor facts are not nessessary the whole truth. I love your Stamina players and respect them, but allowing other peoples perspective doesnt hurt, does it?

Zinaroth · October 2015

Jeckll wrote: »

I love your Stamina players and respect them, but allowing other peoples perspective doesnt hurt, does it?

Nope not at all but then don't adress my perspective with words like these:

Jeckll wrote: »

Personal opinions are neither facts nor arguments.

We basically agree on everything so let's end the argument here.

Tavore1138 · October 2015

Zinaroth wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Zinaroth wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

It really does have a lot to do with it actually - prior to changes stamina builds were pretty much able to keep our own resources going so temps needed to chuck spears for tanks and maybe run restoring aura for the group and not a lot else for the stamina folks. The various rises in stamina costs and reduction in stamina regen have simply made this a problem where it was not before.

As far as I know there were no changes to stamina costs or nerfs to reduction possibilities.
Besides you didn't mention these in your first comment, only dodge rolling.
Furthermore dodge roll still costs the same, it is only increased if you dodge roll again after four seconds, if you need to dodge roll this much in dungeons or trials you or your group is doing something wrong.

No proper healing templar runs Restoring Aura, they go for the Repentance morph, since the buff from Restoring Aura doesn't stack with regeneration from potions. They are the same buffs.

Prior to whatever change has come since Trials were introduced keeping stamina up was a problem if you wanted to do good DPS. I have been raiding Trials since they came out at the highest level (so competing on trial leaderboards), and magicka users have always been able to be assisted with magicka rescource constantly through Mystic Orb which affects entire raid, Siphon Spirit which affects entire raid, Elemental Drain which effects entire raid or even back in 1.5 with Spell Symmetry spamming. Our only choise for stamina users have always been Luminous/Blazing Spear spamming which can only be used by one guy or Repentance which only hits 6 people, so you just pop it and pray it hits the stamina guys. Not to mention it needs dead mobs and some of the adds on trial fights can't be Repentanced.

But once again I reiterate; this has nothing do do with the nerf to dodging which was very much needed for PvP just like the nerf to permanently blocking.

I think you're taking an unconsequential problem and trying to link it to something you have an opinion on should be changed. The two are not related. If you feel the dodge roll nerf was over the top that is fair enough but it is not related to the subject OP posted.

Well, if we are talking specifics just one example of a place I do find the dodge roll hurts is on Manti... If you get the rings then you need to dodge roll out, personally I do this twice before running out of the third, you then need a block so no regen and then if you are doing the no hole version you need another sprint and roll.... 3 rolls, sprints and blocks with raised costs and reduced regen does make a difference and that's running 36k stamina and around 1.5k regen.

There is no reason at all to dodge roll on the World Breaker mechanic in SO, your group is using a flawed tactic then. At most sprinting could be a good idea, and that's only for 2-3 seconds each World Breaker. The blocking can be quite penalizing though indeed, but you can also just use a defensive class ability that uses magicka instead, then you won't need to block unless your health is super low.

So what do you do when the errupting rings target you? Just sprint? Blocking doesn't stop you get kicked into the sky and I am pretty sure immovable doesn't help?