NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

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F7sus4 wrote: »

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

With the removal of the Veteran Ranks...

• What will become of the Skill Points and Attribute Points we gained?
• What level will the VR crafting materials be adjusted to and how will this effect the level 50 and below materials?
• What will become of the costumes we unlocked and how will they be unlocked in future?
• What will the level of VR zones be adjusted to and how will this effect content within those zones? E.g. Craglorn Trials.

I asked the exact same questions at the forums, like, 8 months ago. The conclusion that came from the discussion was that VR removal is utterly pointless and would break/flatten the game even more.

If we are all 50 and VR is removed ....it's removed...nothing to be broken if it's all gone

Lol, that'd be hilarious if it came to pass this way.

The thing is that they've been really vague on the subject, so we don't know the benefits, but we can sure think of plenty of negatives. Lack of info. just leads to misinformation and theories! Hence my thread and past threads by others lol.

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Enraged_Tiki_Torch wrote: »

My guess is because they said the Champion Point system was meant to replace Veteran Ranks, content and items would be based on what tier in the champion point system your account is in verses your current character level. Example instead of having to be v15-16 to wear Molag Kena armor, your character would have to have 300 CP. Dungeons would scale based on how many CP the group leader has. Crafted materials would be the same way, as higher level materials are already used to create higher level items. Skill points awarded after so many CP earned (10 as example).

When it comes to CP tiers, it would be like 0-100 would be tier 1, 101-200 would be tier 2, and so on. Then possibly have it so players would instance with other players in the same tier as them.

Problem I think is if this is what ZoS meant, I cant think of a game which uses this mechanic. Everything is level-based which is tested and proved to work. With this, they are shooting in the dark so I am sure they want to do it right. Rather have the dreadful VR level stick around until there confident with such an overhaul. Cant see it being just a simple transfer over from v16 to level 65, they could of done that by now.

Considering you can hit VR14 with less than 100 CP, scaling that would be extremely disruptive.

It really comes down to what the exp values would be for levels and CP. Currently we know that they're working on a CP exp curve of sorts, so you'll gain them faster during the lower CP ranks.

Any such changes in accumulation rates won't solve the problem because they won't give the benefits to already existing characters. Just like my v10 when I return for TU. It got a measly 30 CP for 10 veteran levels. The points should have matched the number of CP you would get for the level assuming all the leveling was done with enlightenment. 3 CP per vet level was a joke.

This would be even worse if I could no longer use my current gear because I don't have enough CP.

I also don't see how this is any better than vet levels. It is much easier to reach the max vet level than it would be to reach the next CP gear tier. You are suggesting replacing 1 vet level of grinding with 100 CP of grinding to get new levels of gear? How is that an improvement?

The CP approach is great when creating alts. No need to level an alt (I assume you would still need to get to 50) to use better gear because CP are account-wide. But for people who are trying to keep pace with a single character, it is just making things more painful.

The VR levels have been raised twice since ZoS stated a desire to remove/replace them.

They have re-acted to popular demand by many players who have expressed an extreme dislike for the VR ranks.

However, that was some time ago and we have seen changes to the game that make VR ranks less hateful.

I think the VR ranks are here to stay because it would be too much of a re-write when the game is only just beginning to expand through DLC.

Just because ZoS may have expressed an intention to do something to the game does not in any way make that incumbent on them to do it. They may prefer to adjust, modify or improve the way VR ranks are attained with a minimum need to grind for the XP.

I myself am VR 15 and have only started the 5th area of Cadwell's gold. I have never grinded for XP and I have not played other than PvE and solo. In other words, I have found that there is sufficient XP from questing and crafting (Dailies) to reach VR 16 without the need to grind, team up with others and do serious dungeons and PVP stuff.

The long held argument (not by me) by so many that there just isn't enough XP in questing to fulfil 16 VR ranks no longer holds true, therefore any compelling reasons on ZoS to remove the VR ranks is lessened with the passage of time and the release of major patches for all and DLC for those who want it. There is also the promise of more expansion work to come right up to 2018!

I just do not see how ZoS would even want to re-work their game now. Every hour and cent into re-working levelling up would be wasted and better spent in moving the game forward with interesting and anticipated realistic goals such as the Dark Brotherhood, the Thieves' Guild and completion of the Justice system. We need this to make ESO look and feel more like an Elder Scrolls game. The game isn't complete until this work is done. There have been so many problems with the launch and re-working of ESO up till June of this year that it is only now that we can see an opportunity for ESO to grow properly. Any attempts at rolling back the game in respect of VR ranks is only going to delay what we all want to see.

I think ZoS have spent a LOT of time and effort re-writing their game in response to public opinion only to be told later that they didn't like what they had done (Tutorial BETA Vs tutorial now anyone?)

The OP raises some good points for discussion but it based on a supposition that the VR ranks will be removed as though that was carved in stone or somehow a given. I think that ZoS will keep their VR ranks and all the tons of stuff that comes with it (good and bad) in favour of moving this stuttering, will-it-happen-or-will-it-not-game into a new dimension that it ought to have reached by now but hasn't because of major delays in production.

What we need now is a new "Road Ahead" announcement that speaks of commitment and reassurance that ESO has an attractive future based on ES lore and customer satisfaction, that has a reasonable expectation of becoming reality rather than false hope promises based on nothing other than popular demands for something to be removed which would be better with improvement instead of replacing it.

In fact, I should have put this video into my original post. I'll do that now.

Of course there is this....

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/222505/whats-with-the-vr-17-vr-18-enchant-achievement-on-pts#latest

Perhaps they will apply the Veteran Ranks to items only?

For example in the vid I posted, Matt says that we'll be back to level 50. So instead of our characters having these Veteran Ranks, perhaps all the items from equipment to crafting mats will have the "Veteran Rank" tag instead, as a way to differentiate between the items power. So VR will ultimately become the "Item level", if you understand this concepts from previous MMOs.

This seems like a valid explanation to @NewBlacksmurf concerns about the new Enchanting Runes. I think it may go the way I have explained, to me it makes sense. At the very least it's a possibility.

Riko_Futatabi wrote: »

Perhaps they will apply the Veteran Ranks to items only?

For example in the vid I posted, Matt says that we'll be back to level 50. So instead of our characters having these Veteran Ranks, perhaps all the items from equipment to crafting mats will have the "Veteran Rank" tag instead, as a way to differentiate between the items power. So VR will ultimately become the "Item level", if you understand this concepts from previous MMOs.

This seems like a valid explanation to @NewBlacksmurf concerns about the new Enchanting Runes. I think it may go the way I have explained, to me it makes sense. At the very least it's a possibility.

that makes a lot of sense and I'd welcome that type of change open arms.....AS LONG AS THEY do something first on silver and gold zones.

If nothing else is opened up....those areas are an Achilles heel to me.

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Vet rank removal will never happen as they need that mechanic for gear grabs.

Current ranks can still be used as a "gear grab" as you put it, without the need for leveling. My post above explains that, but I'll explain it here anyway, for clarity.

This is my assumption on how this can work entirely:

• Veteran Ranks will be removed as a form of leveling for Characters.
• The Champion System will be the vertical progression used to further empower your Character.
• All current and future items for end game will have a "Veteran Rank" as a tag to differentiate the power of those items. (Similar to "Item Levels" for those that are familiar with previous MMOs)

Most that deny the removal, haven't informed themselves enough or don't try to understand how it could work. This was the reason I created this thread, because it's going to happen some time after Orsinium is released and probably more closer to, but before any of the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood content.

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

With your suggestion....perhaps instead of VR leveled gear the items could contain some lore around vestige levels being that we begin as a vestige in this story until we fight to get our souls back.

If they remove VR levels I think an armor indicator makes sense but the indicator used shouldn't be VR in my opinion

Yeah, I understand. The reason I think they might keep the VR label is because of clarity. It translates well from raw crafting mats, to refined materials and then the final product. But I guess it doesn't necessarily need to be labelled VR, but something that can be clear through the whole crafting process.

Another thought, if they did remove all the level indicators from all the mats pre-50 and VR. Then all that's left is the name of the material and that makes sense. The indicator of the items power is the name of the material. It's almost too simple lol!

This might also work for dropped loot and quest rewards or any unique boss item etc. All they'd have to do is label the item with the crafting material relevant to its power. Seems a little iffy, but it can sort of work for this.

Now that they are officially capping the champion points. I have no problem with the veteran ranks personally.

Mojmir wrote: »

Should have removed vet ranks and converted them to cps,50/ rank

Uhh, so people with 8 maxed out alts should have 6,400 more champion points than a lvl 49 player?

Solariken wrote: »

Everyone always makes this discussion way more complicated than it needs to be.

GOAL: sync all end-game players to the same "season" of gear grinding.

SOLUTION (Imperial City update is my example):

1. Reduce all VR players to level 50.
2. When Imperial City releases, allow all level 50 players immediate access to and ability to wear Voidsteel-equivalent crafting material and gear.
3. Players use this gear to play Imperial City content to get the next tier of gear and materials (Rubedite, etc - 2 tiers currently, for VR 15 and VR 16).
4. Next major content update, all level 50 players gain access to Rubedite, etc and use it to start the grind through the next-current tiers.

Grinding XP needs to stop at level 50. People want to play with their friends, not be gated more and more from doing so with each new content release.

As a side note, the Champion system needs a slight overhaul to be compatible with this (or any) primary progression system. The system itself is a fine mechanic for deeper character customization but is game-breaking in its current state. The "Hardy" passive is a great example - this type of passive should max out at something like 5%. Otherwise, there will be insurmountable imbalance in both PvE and PvP.

Your idea with this for mats...just remove any level attachments to all mats and require X amount of mats to a level and allow the mats to just be styles within each motif as they are now

Champion system. Do you perceive the cap idea as a solution?

Solariken wrote: »

Everyone always makes this discussion way more complicated than it needs to be.

GOAL: sync all end-game players to the same "season" of gear grinding.

SOLUTION (Imperial City update is my example):

1. Reduce all VR players to level 50.
2. When Imperial City releases, allow all level 50 players immediate access to and ability to wear Voidsteel-equivalent crafting material and gear.
3. Players use this gear to play Imperial City content to get the next tier of gear and materials (Rubedite, etc - 2 tiers currently, for VR 15 and VR 16).
4. Next major content update, all level 50 players gain access to Rubedite, etc and use it to start the grind through the next-current tiers.

Grinding XP needs to stop at level 50. People want to play with their friends, not be gated more and more from doing so with each new content release.

This is essentially how I see them addressing gear as well.

Sorry if I am necroing, but I just saw this in a video and I just had to share:
[img][/img]

On topic, I agree with @Solariken :

Solariken wrote: »

Everyone always makes this discussion way more complicated than it needs to be.

GOAL: sync all end-game players to the same "season" of gear grinding.

SOLUTION (Imperial City update is my example):

1. Reduce all VR players to level 50.
2. When Imperial City releases, allow all level 50 players immediate access to and ability to wear Voidsteel-equivalent crafting material and gear.
3. Players use this gear to play Imperial City content to get the next tier of gear and materials (Rubedite, etc - 2 tiers currently, for VR 15 and VR 16).
4. Next major content update, all level 50 players gain access to Rubedite, etc and use it to start the grind through the next-current tiers.

Grinding XP needs to stop at level 50. People want to play with their friends, not be gated more and more from doing so with each new content release.

...

Dubhliam wrote: »

Sorry if I am necroing, but I just saw this in a video and I just had to share:
[img][/img]

On topic, I agree with @Solariken :

Solariken wrote: »

Everyone always makes this discussion way more complicated than it needs to be.

GOAL: sync all end-game players to the same "season" of gear grinding.

SOLUTION (Imperial City update is my example):

1. Reduce all VR players to level 50.
2. When Imperial City releases, allow all level 50 players immediate access to and ability to wear Voidsteel-equivalent crafting material and gear.
3. Players use this gear to play Imperial City content to get the next tier of gear and materials (Rubedite, etc - 2 tiers currently, for VR 15 and VR 16).
4. Next major content update, all level 50 players gain access to Rubedite, etc and use it to start the grind through the next-current tiers.

Grinding XP needs to stop at level 50. People want to play with their friends, not be gated more and more from doing so with each new content release.

...

WOW gets an increased level cap every expansion and even a level boost as pre-order bonus so i'd say it depends on who you are and what you're accustomed to. I'd wager alot of players in this game aren't accustomed to that though.