Roots may need their turn with the nerf bat?

Tavore1138 · September 2015

Purge and maneuvre are very costly to conter a spammanle skill, momentum requires two handed and shuffle does snares not roots as far as I understood (although I could be wrong).

Even so there were many many counters to dodge roll and massive numbers of counters to cloak - that has not stopped people complaining about tham and getting nerfs actioned or promised. Don't see why roots should be spared the treatment as they are also very annoying and can be spammed.

Tavore1138 · September 2015

Armitas wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

For roots I'd suggest applying the same type of immunity timer as is done for other forms of CC.

And so on - a nerf, if needed, must keep the skill viable for it's intended purpose.

I think this is the right direction but it needs to have it's own specific immunity and not a global immunity. A root like talons doesn't disable anyone like a knockdown or a stun. If you are rooted you are still free to attack or heal etc, you just can't move. So if it gave immunity you handing your opponent immunity to strong CC via weak CC. We need it to give immunity to only soft CC.

So in a nut shell if I cast roots and you break free (added option) or sit for the full duration you gain a specific immunity to roots for x seconds. If you roll out you are free but no immunity. While immune to roots you can be knocked down, or stunned.

That sounds workable. As long as they don't then nerf break free

eventide03b14a_ESO · September 2015

We need to remove roots, snares, interrupts, stuns, gap closers, and invisibility. Then we need to also reduce the damage of light attacks, heavy attacks, all DoTs, and add casting time to all instant spells. Furthermore we need to introduce a 2 second global cool down on all abilities. We also need to increase the cost of Bolt Escape by 500% each cast, reduce all wards by an additional 50% and make hardened ward work only if you use the /dancealtmer emote.

olsborg · September 2015

Theres other ways to get rid of a root other then dodge, ill name just two here. Shuffle and Purge.

Tavore1138 · September 2015

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

We need to remove roots, snares, interrupts, stuns, gap closers, and invisibility. Then we need to also reduce the damage of light attacks, heavy attacks, all DoTs, and add casting time to all instant spells. Furthermore we need to introduce a 2 second global cool down on all abilities. We also need to increase the cost of Bolt Escape by 500% each cast, reduce all wards by an additional 50% and make hardened ward work only if you use the /dancealtmer emote.

All sensible ideas BUT to make it really work we need to reduce all the armour and weapon enchants and set bonuses that might impact on any of the skills and make sure that all players are the same level with the same HP/SP & MP.

eventide03b14a_ESO · September 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

We need to remove roots, snares, interrupts, stuns, gap closers, and invisibility. Then we need to also reduce the damage of light attacks, heavy attacks, all DoTs, and add casting time to all instant spells. Furthermore we need to introduce a 2 second global cool down on all abilities. We also need to increase the cost of Bolt Escape by 500% each cast, reduce all wards by an additional 50% and make hardened ward work only if you use the /dancealtmer emote.

All sensible ideas BUT to make it really work we need to reduce all the armour and weapon enchants and set bonuses that might impact on any of the skills and make sure that all players are the same level with the same HP/SP & MP.

I didn't consider that. Hopefully they release more crown store costumes as well so we forget that we were supposed to be playing a game with combat.

Waffennacht · September 2015

I'll just say what EVERY SINGLE NB says, "you have a potion as a counter"

So just like every NB ever, there are counters so therefore the idea of a nerf idea should be dismissed.

Or they can make a set that deals unstoppable dmg to a root user. Welcome to the sorcs world.

Stop nerfing the game.

1Grumpy_dunmer1 · September 2015

An immunity would be fine but roots are all magicka dk has left. : (

HungryHobo · September 2015

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I like the dodge roll cool down; however I don't think it should activate when dodge rolling out of a root. You shouldn't be punished for defending yourself.

Ohh yea. Reset dodge roll CD when rooted, or reduce it by 2 seconds for every root applied

Junglejim82 · September 2015

Alucardo wrote: »

It's a vicious circle unfortunately. Roll dodge those endless sieges into a root, roll dodge out of that root into a siege circle, roll dodge away from that.. no stamina. Revert roll dodging nerf - people will become acrobats and perma-tumble all over the place. The other option, nerf roots, and people will get up in arms how you nerfed their roots (look what happened to DKs talons). Even now ZOS are considering reverting that nerf because of the uproar. There is no elegant solution.
That said, the best one I've heard so far (third comment) is having the dodge roll fatigue kicked in after rolling 3 times in 5 seconds, so you're really only punishing those spamming it, not everyone under every circumstance. I would be absolutely fine to see how this plays out.

Too much common sense in this post . These aren't the most toxic forums I've seen but definitely the most childish Nerf happy ones. And the dev team enable it. No cost scaling for dodge till after the third roll sorts alot of issues with this poorly handled change

jrkhan · September 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I hate calling for nerfs, I'd much rather see a creative solution to a problem rather than a blanket nerf but this is a direct consequence of a nerf that was applied and other than ZOS going back and finding a more nuanced solution for the perceived problem of people dodging things a lot then a solution to root spamming is going to be needed to avoid PvP becoming very stale.

My suggestion:
If the player is rooted, that dodge roll should not be affected by, or count towards, the dodge roll cost increase.

Dodge rolls performed while not rooted continue to work as they do today.

That way, if you are chain rooted - it's somewhat more likely that you'll be able to roll out.

Waffennacht · September 2015

Then why even bother having roots in existence? If you can perma break it.... then its just stupid. Its like, "hey a resource spell... that doesn't drain their resources... great..."

jrkhan · September 2015

Waffennacht wrote: »

Then why even bother having roots in existence? If you can perma break it.... then its just stupid. Its like, "hey a resource spell... that doesn't drain their resources... great..."

Well, that's quite the hyperbole.

Why bother creating gap closing abilities if you can spam root and prevent it from ever being used?
Why bother creating stun abilities if players can just use immovable/insta cc break?

I was just suggesting that dodge roll fatigue not apply if you'd been rooted (similar to bash causing increased damage if it actually interrupts something)

It would not be free in either case.

rordogg · September 2015

I main a DK and i've actually never understood why their isn't some sort of short immunity from being rooted again if you break out of it.

Waffennacht · September 2015

jrkhan wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Then why even bother having roots in existence? If you can perma break it.... then its just stupid. Its like, "hey a resource spell... that doesn't drain their resources... great..."

Well, that's quite the hyperbole.

Why bother creating gap closing abilities if you can spam root and prevent it from ever being used?
Why bother creating stun abilities if players can just use immovable/insta cc break?

I was just suggesting that dodge roll fatigue not apply if you'd been rooted (similar to bash causing increased damage if it actually interrupts something)

It would not be free in either case.

Exactly that's why they changed it, you can't immovable forever, gap closing is for a fleeing opponent, to me not apart of combat. Also means they lost and should have the hardest time fleeing.

Emma_Overload · September 2015

The solution this problem is to make roots work like other CCs: click Break Free and get several seconds of CC immunity.

The roll dodge to unroot was always counter-intuitive anyway... it's time they just got rid of it.

Tavore1138 · September 2015

Dodge roll is still needed to get free of area effects in both PvE and PvP - not to mention SO where you NEED to be able to perform 3 dodge rolls in quick succession without killing your resources.

ZOS failed to think this one all the way through, which is often the danger with nerfs - they can lead to other skills being more powerful than intended, in this case roots. Nerfing roots is not an ideal solution, giving them some sort of immunity timer once countered like stuns is a better option than a harsh nerf, possibly taking a more balanced approach on dodge itself removes the need altogether - but right now things are out of whack and something needs doing.

Domander · September 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

when there is no perma dodge there is no need to nerf root's... there is a reason perma dodge got fixed since root was useless at that point in the game

Yes there is because now there is no counter to roots so it can be spammed both to permaroot players and cause damage, no-one should have that much power n one button without anyway for players to defend. Clearly you miss the days where DK was the unquestioned easy mode option.

The counter to roots is dodge.. u get rooted u dodge, or u stay its a 2 way street and the choice is your's befor the game was all about spamming stuff.. now its more tactical like it should be

if there is anything they should do its problery to raise the immunity timer on skills like Root, and Big CC's

There *is* no immunity timer on roots and that is what makes spamming them possible. If there was a timer on roots then at least you could have the roll dodge cooldown timer run before you were rooted again. Nor can roots be blocked.

Right now if you roll out of the first root you simply get rooted again instantly and then you dodge costs start excalating fast. I run with 36k stamina, 1.7k regen and just tested being able to dodge 6 times begore running dry. 3 dodges cost me over 11-12k so a non stamina build will be dry after that... so 3 roots and you can then just hit people at you leisure and they won't even be able to block you.

Doesn't seem much of a 'fight' at that point

Actually as of right now, petrify and the 2 sorc roots are the only unblockable ones.

Petrify requires that the target not be CC immune
mines require that the target hit them
Encase does no damage unless morphed to do so

Knowledge is power

AND NO, roots do not need to be nerfed, people need to get the F off the nerf train.

Tavore1138 · September 2015

But even if, for instance, talons is blockable you would have to know it was about to be cast in order to block it OR you would have to be holding block in anticipation which with the change to stamina regen is no longer a viable option. Knowledge is one thing, the ability to extrapolate from knowledge is also handy.

So, sadly, roots do need reviewing with a possible downward tweak in mind.

Sarousse · September 2015

There are 2 spells that makes you immune to root/snares : use them. Roots are good as they are.

Tavore1138 · September 2015

Sarousse wrote: »

There are 2 spells that makes you immune to root/snares : use them. Roots are good as they are.

That's all very well and equally true for bolt escape, roll dodge or cloak which have more counters than roots do, the issue (we were tokd) with them was that they were spammable. Roots are also spammanle and should not get a special exemption.

I would however be equally happy to see previous and currently considered nerfs deslt with on this basis and rolled back or dropped.

I am no fan of nerfs but if nerfs are how this game is going than all spammable combat skills must eventually be subjevt to them.

Emma_Overload · September 2015

Sarousse wrote: »

There are 2 spells that makes you immune to root/snares : use them. Roots are good as they are.

The only ones I can think of cost tons of stamina that I don't have. Are there any magicka spells that can do this?

jorgeh401b14_ESO · September 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Didn't want to be left out of the 'X needs a nerf' threads but... also a serious point.

The counter to people repeatedly using roots used to be to dodge out of them. There was a time when the meta was talon spam and either banner or bats and the counter was to roll dodge a couple of times and get the hell out of the aoe - because otherwise you would die. Many threads of that time extolled the values of 'learn to roll dodge n00b'. In time people did learn to dodge and that, along with some other changes, made that meta go away.

With the recent nerf to roll dodge the rather predictable consequence is that root spamming is making a come back in PvP with a vengeance because root has no immunity cool down and is relatively cheap it can be used to hold people in the range of aoe they would once have been able to escape and they can simply keep pressing that button while draining resources simply because the way to escape it has been removed by the designers.

My feeling is that roots are going to be the new meta and it will be a boring meta because it makes combat more static and dull. I would say it hurts stamina builds (and it does) but it also hurts magicka builds with their inherently low stamina pool as well who will be able to get out of maybe a couple of roots before finding themselves unable to move out of the danger area or block incoming damage. Stamina build may be able to sacrifice the vastly increased cost to move out of 3 or even 4 of these but then will also be unable to block or use any skills.

I hate calling for nerfs, I'd much rather see a creative solution to a problem rather than a blanket nerf but this is a direct consequence of a nerf that was applied and other than ZOS going back and finding a more nuanced solution for the perceived problem of people dodging things a lot then a solution to root spamming is going to be needed to avoid PvP becoming very stale.

seting up an aoe ult/ability with a root is a good thing, whats the point of it if your target can always avoid it.

Waffennacht · September 2015

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

I am no fan of nerfs but if nerfs are how this game is going than all spammable combat skills must eventually be subjevt to them.

Spammable spells is the whole reason they don't have a cool down. If you change all spamming you defeat the purpose that the devs were going for.

leepalmer95 · September 2015

jorgeh401b14_ESO wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Didn't want to be left out of the 'X needs a nerf' threads but... also a serious point.

The counter to people repeatedly using roots used to be to dodge out of them. There was a time when the meta was talon spam and either banner or bats and the counter was to roll dodge a couple of times and get the hell out of the aoe - because otherwise you would die. Many threads of that time extolled the values of 'learn to roll dodge n00b'. In time people did learn to dodge and that, along with some other changes, made that meta go away.

With the recent nerf to roll dodge the rather predictable consequence is that root spamming is making a come back in PvP with a vengeance because root has no immunity cool down and is relatively cheap it can be used to hold people in the range of aoe they would once have been able to escape and they can simply keep pressing that button while draining resources simply because the way to escape it has been removed by the designers.

My feeling is that roots are going to be the new meta and it will be a boring meta because it makes combat more static and dull. I would say it hurts stamina builds (and it does) but it also hurts magicka builds with their inherently low stamina pool as well who will be able to get out of maybe a couple of roots before finding themselves unable to move out of the danger area or block incoming damage. Stamina build may be able to sacrifice the vastly increased cost to move out of 3 or even 4 of these but then will also be unable to block or use any skills.

I hate calling for nerfs, I'd much rather see a creative solution to a problem rather than a blanket nerf but this is a direct consequence of a nerf that was applied and other than ZOS going back and finding a more nuanced solution for the perceived problem of people dodging things a lot then a solution to root spamming is going to be needed to avoid PvP becoming very stale.

seting up an aoe ult/ability with a root is a good thing, whats the point of it if your target can always avoid it.

The fact they increased dodge roll costs without changing roots is the reason you can drain anyone of their stamina by spamming 1 skill.

Waffennacht · September 2015

Unless your build can just take it and keep going. Like templar or sorc... you don't Have to avoid it.

I bet if you got your cc immunity you would still be pissed you could be rooted, break free, then be knocked down until roots immunity is up... aka as is we can go around immunity to keep you perma stuck. We is control mage, deal with it. You just don't like being stuck either in roots or on ground.