Roots may need their turn with the nerf bat?

Tavore1138

Didn't want to be left out of the 'X needs a nerf' threads but... also a serious point.

The counter to people repeatedly using roots used to be to dodge out of them. There was a time when the meta was talon spam and either banner or bats and the counter was to roll dodge a couple of times and get the hell out of the aoe - because otherwise you would die. Many threads of that time extolled the values of 'learn to roll dodge n00b'. In time people did learn to dodge and that, along with some other changes, made that meta go away.

With the recent nerf to roll dodge the rather predictable consequence is that root spamming is making a come back in PvP with a vengeance because root has no immunity cool down and is relatively cheap it can be used to hold people in the range of aoe they would once have been able to escape and they can simply keep pressing that button while draining resources simply because the way to escape it has been removed by the designers.

My feeling is that roots are going to be the new meta and it will be a boring meta because it makes combat more static and dull. I would say it hurts stamina builds (and it does) but it also hurts magicka builds with their inherently low stamina pool as well who will be able to get out of maybe a couple of roots before finding themselves unable to move out of the danger area or block incoming damage. Stamina build may be able to sacrifice the vastly increased cost to move out of 3 or even 4 of these but then will also be unable to block or use any skills.

I hate calling for nerfs, I'd much rather see a creative solution to a problem rather than a blanket nerf but this is a direct consequence of a nerf that was applied and other than ZOS going back and finding a more nuanced solution for the perceived problem of people dodging things a lot then a solution to root spamming is going to be needed to avoid PvP becoming very stale.

Asmael

What about... well...

Reverting dodge roll nerf?

Answer to an issue by a buff to its counter, to not the mechanic itself.

Nuff said.

Tavore1138

Asmael wrote: »

What about... well...

Reverting dodge roll nerf?

Answer to an issue by a buff to its counter, to not the mechanic itself.

Nuff said.

I do not disagree, personally have the cost increase to dodge kick in after 3 uses in 5 seconds would make more sense but in that we have the current situation we need a change to deal with the consequences of the change. Yours is as good as any but then people would be up in arms about perma rollers again.

Jprip88b16_ESO

when there is no perma dodge there is no need to nerf root's... there is a reason perma dodge got fixed since root was useless at that point in the game

Tavore1138

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

when there is no perma dodge there is no need to nerf root's... there is a reason perma dodge got fixed since root was useless at that point in the game

Yes there is because now there is no counter to roots so it can be spammed both to permaroot players and cause damage, no-one should have that much power n one button without anyway for players to defend. Clearly you miss the days where DK was the unquestioned easy mode option.

Asmael

If you had issues with perma dodge rollers in 1.6...

- Petrify / Fossilize
- Lava whip
- Surprise Attack / Concealed
- Velocious curse
- Focused charge (any morph)
- Jesus beam
- Eclipse
- Talons
- Inhale
- Impulse
- Mass Hysteria
- Mines
- Rune prison

I could go on...

Jprip88b16_ESO

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

when there is no perma dodge there is no need to nerf root's... there is a reason perma dodge got fixed since root was useless at that point in the game

Yes there is because now there is no counter to roots so it can be spammed both to permaroot players and cause damage, no-one should have that much power n one button without anyway for players to defend. Clearly you miss the days where DK was the unquestioned easy mode option.

The counter to roots is dodge.. u get rooted u dodge, or u stay its a 2 way street and the choice is your's befor the game was all about spamming stuff.. now its more tactical like it should be

if there is anything they should do its problery to raise the immunity timer on skills like Root, and Big CC's

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

Asmael wrote: »

If you had issues with perma dodge rollers in 1.6...

- Petrify / Fossilize
- Lava whip
- Surprise Attack / Concealed
- Velocious curse
- Focused charge (any morph)
- Jesus beam
- Eclipse
- Talons
- Inhale
- Impulse
- Mass Hysteria
- Mines
- Rune prison

I could go on...

almost all of those were because of a bug that let certain single target/channeled attacks hit through dodge roll.

Actually there is another counter to roots. any cleanse (tenplar purify, purge), forward momentum, rapids, and shuffle. some are less practical like spamming rapids or a stamina build trying to spam purge. but roots do have counters, not just dodge roll.

Tavore1138

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Jprip88b16_ESO wrote: »

when there is no perma dodge there is no need to nerf root's... there is a reason perma dodge got fixed since root was useless at that point in the game

Yes there is because now there is no counter to roots so it can be spammed both to permaroot players and cause damage, no-one should have that much power n one button without anyway for players to defend. Clearly you miss the days where DK was the unquestioned easy mode option.

The counter to roots is dodge.. u get rooted u dodge, or u stay its a 2 way street and the choice is your's befor the game was all about spamming stuff.. now its more tactical like it should be

if there is anything they should do its problery to raise the immunity timer on skills like Root, and Big CC's

There *is* no immunity timer on roots and that is what makes spamming them possible. If there was a timer on roots then at least you could have the roll dodge cooldown timer run before you were rooted again. Nor can roots be blocked.

Right now if you roll out of the first root you simply get rooted again instantly and then you dodge costs start excalating fast. I run with 36k stamina, 1.7k regen and just tested being able to dodge 6 times begore running dry. 3 dodges cost me over 11-12k so a non stamina build will be dry after that... so 3 roots and you can then just hit people at you leisure and they won't even be able to block you.

Doesn't seem much of a 'fight' at that point

Asmael

We need to stop this nerfing BS.

Softcaps removed, perma dodge rollers appear.
Dodge roll gets nerfed.
Roots are now OP.
Talons got nerfed (hopefully being reverted).

Then people will complain about anti-snares, and they'll get nerfed.
Even then, people will find something to complain about, and something else will get nerfed.

Can we stop this already?

Tavore1138

Asmael wrote: »

We need to stop this nerfing BS.

Softcaps removed, perma dodge rollers appear.
Dodge roll gets nerfed.
Roots are now OP.
Talons got nerfed (hopefully being reverted).

Then people will complain about anti-snares, and they'll get nerfed.
Even then, people will find something to complain about, and something else will get nerfed.

Can we stop this already?

I agree with that - the problem with any nerf is that if all the consequences are not considered then you end up giving too much advantage to another skill which in turn needs a nerf and so on until everything is dull and cookie cutter.

The tendency in ESO at times seems to be for the devs to identify something that may (or may not) be a problem and then nerf it into the ground hard and fast instead of making gentle tweaks over the course of several patches to get to a balance point.

Personally I hate nerfs but equally I hate being unable to move and take part in combat because of the consequences of another nerf - so do I keep quiet and stop playing or comment in the hopes that they will do something like put an immunity timer on roots, for example?

I never had an issue with streakers or rollers - if people used combat escape skills to escape me in combat then good for them, I'll go kill someone else instead. But some people can't seem to cope unless they win every time so they call for nerfs on escape skills (see all the current threads on cloak, a skill that has been working tolerably well for all of 3 weeks, and ZOS already saying that will be nerfed soon) but the result of those nerfs is other skills become OP in their turn and then they too need a nerf.

The answer is to first ask the question of whether something is a problem and then, if it really is, do the absolute minimum to fix it.

Another example is the no stamina regen while blocking change - a change that doesn't even solve the issue of perma-blockers casting ranged magicka skills while blocking with staffs AND regenrating macgicak without a problem but does make tanking very tough for all but the most twitchy players with the most lag free connections.

WillhelmBlack

They could just roll back to 1.6 and make everyone happy.

Wollust

The nerfing posts are getting out of control.

Maulkin

Reverting the dodge roll nerf would be insidious at the moment.

I think a better solution would be after a dodge roll you gain a small time of root immunity, like 2". It has to be shorter than the cooldown on dodge, otherwise people will just learn to dodge on cooldown and make themselves completely immune to roots in the process.

revonine

There was one particular DK last night in the Arena district who would do nothing but re spawn immediately come back down run into the group and spam nothing but talons talons talons.

This has what it's become...trolling with roots. Man it was irritating.

Tavore1138

Dodge roll does not make a player immune to roots, they still get rooted and take damage but they are then able to react and escape the root before taking the full dot or the full impact if whatever ground effect or aoe follows the root. Roll dodge is the 'break free' for roots and msking it prohibitively expensive to use just enables easy mide for root users.

As someone pointed out there are other costly ways of breaking a root but they tend to the crazy costs - and with other nerfs it is not the existence of other options that has driven the nerf merely the ability to spama skill indefinitely as you now can with roots.

Once again I don't like nerfs but if you make a heavy nerf to the main practical route out of roots then roots themselves need a change to allow for it.

Alucardo

It's a vicious circle unfortunately. Roll dodge those endless sieges into a root, roll dodge out of that root into a siege circle, roll dodge away from that.. no stamina. Revert roll dodging nerf - people will become acrobats and perma-tumble all over the place. The other option, nerf roots, and people will get up in arms how you nerfed their roots (look what happened to DKs talons). Even now ZOS are considering reverting that nerf because of the uproar. There is no elegant solution.
That said, the best one I've heard so far (third comment) is having the dodge roll fatigue kicked in after rolling 3 times in 5 seconds, so you're really only punishing those spamming it, not everyone under every circumstance. I would be absolutely fine to see how this plays out.

Forestd16b14_ESO

Nerf cloak and then we'll talk.

OdinForge

Lol.

These nerf posts are just ridiculous. The next DLC will see us fighting with pool toys.

Alucardo

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Nerf cloak and then we'll talk.

Cloak is not a root. Get out now.

Strider_Roshin

I like the dodge roll cool down; however I don't think it should activate when dodge rolling out of a root. You shouldn't be punished for defending yourself.

Armitas

As a root user I am now, for the first time, experiencing people staying in my roots for their full duration. Roots actually work now. But I do understand your situation and brought up the same prediction on the pts.

It's a complex issue to be sure. I'd like my roots to do their job but I also don't want to see people perma rooted.

timidobserver

My class doesn't have a root, so I don't care if they get nerfed

Dredlord

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

I like the dodge roll cool down; however I don't think it should activate when dodge rolling out of a root. You shouldn't be punished for defending yourself.

This is actually a not a bad idea.

This coupled with all AOE roots being able to be blocked would solve this problem.

Tavore1138

Armitas wrote: »

As a root user I am now, for the first time, experiencing people staying in my roots for their full duration. Roots actually work now. But I do understand your situation and brought up the same prediction on the pts.

It's a complex issue to be sure. I'd like my roots to do their job but I also don't want to see people perma rooted.

It's the problem with fast mobile combat like this game was designed with - you root, I roll out, you stun, I break free, you hit, I block, you drop a ground aoe, I roll twice to get out of range and switch bars for a flying blade, you block, I ambush, you break free and so it goes - both players trying to get position, both players chipping away until one makes a mistake or runs out of resource.

Or that's how it should be anyway until ZOS drop a huge nerf on a mechanic and another mechanic becomes a lot stronger as a result, leading to more cried for that mechanic to be nerfed in turn etc etc.

The dodge roll nerf was too heavy and too limiting to it's proper use in combat and as a result it has opened up a new way for other players to abuse roots - not all players do and not all players will (any more than all players stacked stamina regen and rolled around cyrodiil like marbles). But enough will that threads like this will pop up increasingly until something is done.

As @Odinforge says the worst case is we all fight each other with an identical stick using a single skill that we all have - we're not there yet but when crying for changes we need to start suggesting grown up solutions with nuance. Those solutions HAVE to allow for use of skills in PvE too... I haven't been in SO since the roll nerf but maybe one of you can tell me how it impacts stamina builds when Mantikora drops his geysers and you NEED to roll dodge 2 or 3 times in quick succession to beat the mechanic?

For roll dodge I suggested if you use more than 3 times in 5 seconds then the 33% increase starts to apply - that would allow free use in combat without allowing it to be spammed forever.

For cloak I'd suggest cost increases after 3 casts within 10 seconds (i.e. allow use for periodic repositions in combat, for stealthing past mobs and for trying to escape) - otherwise what is the point of even having the skill, you'd be better off just taking it away like they did with sparks and putting something else new in it's place.

For roots I'd suggest applying the same type of immunity timer as is done for other forms of CC.

And so on - a nerf, if needed, must keep the skill viable for it's intended purpose.

DovresMalven

Better idea, remove all skills and damage from the game
Fashion contests instead of battles

Joy_Division

Got to hop on that nerf bandwagon and chime in on something that inconveniences your playstyle huh?

Unlike say, sorc shield stacking, roots are actually easy to counter.

If you are magicka build, efficient purge/cleanse. If you are a stamina build, slot shuffle, use forward momentum, rapid maneuvers, or that 3k stamina regen to roll out of them. Or if you up against a eviscerated DK, just block and lol them.

Asmael

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

As @Odinforge says the worst case is we all fight each other with an identical stick using a single skill that we all have

Wrecking Blow says hello.

We haven't reached that point, but we're getting to it.

Tavore1138

Don't mention *that two handed skill* you will just get in trouble.

Ffastyl

Saint_JiubB14_ESO wrote: »

Actually there is another counter to roots. any cleanse (tenplar purify, purge), forward momentum, rapids, and shuffle. some are less practical like spamming rapids or a stamina build trying to spam purge. but roots do have counters, not just dodge roll.

Joy_Division wrote: »

If you are magicka build, efficient purge/cleanse. If you are a stamina build, slot shuffle, use forward momentum, rapid maneuvers, or that 3k stamina regen to roll out of them. Or if you up against a eviscerated DK, just block and lol them.

Allow me to be third to bring these up:

Forward Momentum
Shuffle
Rapid Maneuvers
Efficient Purge
Purifying Ritual

All built-in counters to snares and roots. The first three also grant immunity to snares and roots that last for several seconds. And to top it off, only one of those is a class restricted ability!

Armitas

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

For roots I'd suggest applying the same type of immunity timer as is done for other forms of CC.

And so on - a nerf, if needed, must keep the skill viable for it's intended purpose.

I think this is the right direction but it needs to have it's own specific immunity and not a global immunity. A root like talons doesn't disable anyone like a knockdown or a stun from which you can be burst down. If you are rooted you are still free to attack or heal etc, you just can't move. So if it gave full immunity you are handing your opponent immunity to strong CC via weak CC. We need it to give immunity to only roots.

So in a nut shell if I cast roots and you break free (added option) or sit for the full duration you gain a specific immunity to roots for x seconds. If you roll out you are free but no immunity. While immune to roots you can be knocked down, or stunned because that is a separate immunity. This way I get my root and my opponent gets his break, and I don't give him high level immunity for a low level CC.