Hiero_Glyph wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Lenikus wrote: »

Does a bonus anywhere between 0.1% and 25% helps you ?
Of course.

Does it help you a lot ? Now it depends on how many you got.

Well lets look at a couple of the passives.

Arcane Well takes a large number of champion points to unlock, but I have a hard time imagining that it could make a big difference if procd. Yes, it gives back magic, but, in my opinion, players are already able to have the regen they need without arcane well.

Also, look at shield expert. An increase of shield armor by 75% sounds huge, but an extra 1000 armor is only around an extra 1.5% damage mitigation (which comes out to be around .75% after certain diminished returns) and isn't that bag of a difference.

I'm open to the idea that if I had another 90 points into armor rating that I would be able to withstand more punishment, but I don't see that changing up my play style or what I'm able to do too much.

This is the mistake that so many make when thinking about CP as they individualize the system, not quantify it as a whole. When you can mitigate damage with additional armor, increases resists, regeneration, damage, how much damage you can block, reduce CC costs, etc. it all adds up to providing a significant advantage over another player without these bonuses, or at least as many of them. Also, there is a straight stat bonus granted from earning each CP so in addition to all of these things you get higher stats as well.

The problem is not with CP itself, but rather in the fact that you can eventually gain all of these bonuses on every character you have. This is game-breaking and while we are talking years worth of grinding for most, there are players that have 1k+ CP already. CP should be a strategic choice where deciding between reduced costs or increased regen is a difficult decision, not one where you just have to grind more until you get both. The idea of extended customization is great but CP only fulfills this initially and over time it just makes every character more similar to the next while punishing new players excessively. A year from now CP will be a bane to the game, not a benefit.

You bring up a good point about balance. If players with 1000 plus end up being way more powerful than average players, then I wonder, as the seasonal cap approaches the 3600 mark, how the developers will keep content and the champion point system in balance.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Groggpuffar wrote: »

Isn't it pretty self-explanatory? Better physical/spell resistance, reduced magicka/stamina cost, better heal, better regeneration.

I'm a total rookie at champion points as I do only have two (lol) but yes, it does make you more powerful

Well that is some peoples opinions, but really champion points can't be that big of a deal. It's not like players with champion points are better off than players without. Right?

0_o

Srsly?
I know you claim to be a "Rookie" at champion points and all, but do you know how to operate a calculator? If so go look at your stats screen and then punch in the percent bonuses to stats/damage/resistances..

Get back to us when you have the numbers for how much better your character will be with 300-1600 CP...

I will be here drinking coffee until you get back.
Run along now... Get to it.

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Groggpuffar wrote: »

Isn't it pretty self-explanatory? Better physical/spell resistance, reduced magicka/stamina cost, better heal, better regeneration.

I'm a total rookie at champion points as I do only have two (lol) but yes, it does make you more powerful

Well that is some peoples opinions, but really champion points can't be that big of a deal. It's not like players with champion points are better off than players without. Right?

0_o

Srsly?
I know you claim to be a "Rookie" at champion points and all, but do you know how to operate a calculator? If so go look at your stats screen and then punch in the percent bonuses to stats/damage/resistances..

Get back to us when you have the numbers for how much better your character will be with 300-1600 CP...

I will be here drinking coffee until you get back.
Run along now... Get to it.

Well lets look at the block expertise passive to which I have made a handy graph that displays the effectiveness of block expertise champion points.



My method of obtaining the above information was to find actual block cost at differing champion point levels of block expertise. What I found is that once a player has the bracing and fortress passive, they get diminished returns on further block cost reduction.

This is to say that, not only do players need more block expertise champion points to get a single point of effect, but that single point of effect is also diminished in the percent of block cost reduction that it actually adds.

For example, player A knows that it will take them more champion points to get the 25% block cost reduction of block expertise than it takes to get 1% block cost reduction from block expertise, but player A should also know that, in reality, as they approach the 25% block expertise mark that the diminished returns on block cost reduction approach and become 50%.

To answer your question, not only do I know how to use a calculator, but I also know how to use excel. My little bit of testing has showed me how small the effects of champion points can end up being in reality.

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Groggpuffar wrote: »

Isn't it pretty self-explanatory? Better physical/spell resistance, reduced magicka/stamina cost, better heal, better regeneration.

I'm a total rookie at champion points as I do only have two (lol) but yes, it does make you more powerful

Well that is some peoples opinions, but really champion points can't be that big of a deal. It's not like players with champion points are better off than players without. Right?

0_o

Srsly?
I know you claim to be a "Rookie" at champion points and all, but do you know how to operate a calculator? If so go look at your stats screen and then punch in the percent bonuses to stats/damage/resistances..

Get back to us when you have the numbers for how much better your character will be with 300-1600 CP...

I will be here drinking coffee until you get back.
Run along now... Get to it.

Well lets look at the block expertise passive to which I have made a handy graph that displays the effectiveness of block expertise champion points.



My method of obtaining the above information was to find actual block cost at differing champion point levels of block expertise. What I found is that once a player has the bracing and fortress passive, they get diminished returns on further block cost reduction.

This is to say that, not only do players need more block expertise champion points to get a single point of effect, but that single point of effect is also diminished in the percent of block cost reduction that it actually adds.

For example, player A knows that it will take them more champion points to get the 25% block cost reduction of block expertise than it takes to get 1% block cost reduction from block expertise, but player A should also know that, in reality, as they approach the 25% block expertise mark that the diminished returns on block cost reduction approach and become 50%.

To answer your question, not only do I know how to use a calculator, but I also know how to use excel. My little bit of testing has showed me how small the effects of champion points can end up being in reality.

Yeah run that on extra crit damage and crit damage reduction and get back to us.Cherry picking some silly block passive is hardly proving anything

I don't mean to be quarrelsome, but honestly, crit isn't that important to my role and I'm not that motivated to discover potential diminished returns with that stat.

That being said, think about this. Players now might be getting 'free crit' from champion points, but crit numbers on gear were lowered when going from 1.5 to 1.6. I can hardly imagine that such a change is a coincidence and that change impacts today's gear and balance. For example, players are considering using Scathing Mage at the moment, but how much more would players be interested in that set if it's spell critical set bonus values were the same as the 1.5 spell critical set bonus values?

Here's 2 examples to understand how CP's affect you.

Example 1(PVP): Player A is an Impulse spammer with a brand new master flame staff and 150cp's total.(thats 50 max per path) He puts 50 points into flame damage. He comes across Player B, who has 600cp's total.(thats 200 per path), who has put 200 points into flame mitigation. Player A now happily stands in the face of Player B and begins his Impulse spamming. Player B begins "/dance redguard" pausing to cast a vigor now and then. Player A now begins to have a look of bewilderment, and after depleting his entire magicka pool spamming his AOE, he pauses to stare. Player B then proceeds to destroy Player A with the 200cp he put into base physical damage, and once Player A is dead, he bows and leaves.

Example 2(PVE): Group A and B are going to fight evil flame boss X, who's flame damage is the nonstop scourge of all gamers.(i.e., 3rd boss in Vet White Gold Tower) Group A preps hard, put's there allotted 50 cp into flame mitigation and tops their resists all they can. They manage to get boss X to 80% before those 11k flame ticks overcome them. Group B all have over 600cp total and allot their 200 into flame mitigation as well as prep their gear for resists. Group B proceeds to slaughter boss X with their healer casting a heal in between latte sips to cover the negligible flame damage from the ticks.

[/sarcasm on] Oh yeah, thats skill that worked for Player B and Group B. [/sarcasm off]

We all know that early on in the presentation of the champion system, some folks got permanent enlightenment, and some others could stand at the bank and watch enlightenment turn on and off after 5 minutes. This *** the champion system from the get go, completely...

We all know that after the introduction of xp potions/scrolls, some have had them on continuosly for hardcore grind sessions. They aren't doing it for no reason, they are doing it for easy mode ESO. I don't mind this as much as they have had to invest alot in order to maintain those potion/scroll uptimes, and anybody can do it.

En Fim.. The fat man doesn't have to have skill to sit on a twinkie and crush it, he crushes it because he's fat.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Funkopotamus wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Groggpuffar wrote: »

Isn't it pretty self-explanatory? Better physical/spell resistance, reduced magicka/stamina cost, better heal, better regeneration.

I'm a total rookie at champion points as I do only have two (lol) but yes, it does make you more powerful

Well that is some peoples opinions, but really champion points can't be that big of a deal. It's not like players with champion points are better off than players without. Right?

0_o

Srsly?
I know you claim to be a "Rookie" at champion points and all, but do you know how to operate a calculator? If so go look at your stats screen and then punch in the percent bonuses to stats/damage/resistances..

Get back to us when you have the numbers for how much better your character will be with 300-1600 CP...

I will be here drinking coffee until you get back.
Run along now... Get to it.

Well lets look at the block expertise passive to which I have made a handy graph that displays the effectiveness of block expertise champion points.



My method of obtaining the above information was to find actual block cost at differing champion point levels of block expertise. What I found is that once a player has the bracing and fortress passive, they get diminished returns on further block cost reduction.

This is to say that, not only do players need more block expertise champion points to get a single point of effect, but that single point of effect is also diminished in the percent of block cost reduction that it actually adds.

For example, player A knows that it will take them more champion points to get the 25% block cost reduction of block expertise than it takes to get 1% block cost reduction from block expertise, but player A should also know that, in reality, as they approach the 25% block expertise mark that the diminished returns on block cost reduction approach and become 50%.

To answer your question, not only do I know how to use a calculator, but I also know how to use excel. My little bit of testing has showed me how small the effects of champion points can end up being in reality.

Yeah run that on extra crit damage and crit damage reduction and get back to us.Cherry picking some silly block passive is hardly proving anything

I don't mean to be quarrelsome, but honestly, crit isn't that important to my role and I'm not that motivated to discover potential diminished returns with that stat.

That being said, think about this. Players now might be getting 'free crit' from champion points, but crit numbers on gear were lowered when going from 1.5 to 1.6. I can hardly imagine that such a change is a coincidence and that change impacts today's gear and balance. For example, players are considering using Scathing Mage at the moment, but how much more would players be interested in that set if it's spell critical set bonus values were the same as the 1.5 spell critical set bonus values?

In other words you got nothing

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

1 is better than 0. 2 is better than 1. You're welcome.

Let's pretend that a player has 1% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 21.6 points.

Now lets pretend that a player has 2% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 43.2 points.

1.0 is only better than 0.2 to the same extent that a billionaire would be more rich if they had 1 more dollar. The billionaire would be more rich, but not significantly so.

Show me a billionaire that wouldn't take the dollar

Mitchblue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

1 is better than 0. 2 is better than 1. You're welcome.

Let's pretend that a player has 1% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 21.6 points.

Now lets pretend that a player has 2% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 43.2 points.

1.0 is only better than 0.2 to the same extent that a billionaire would be more rich if they had 1 more dollar. The billionaire would be more rich, but not significantly so.

But it doesn't stop there.. If someone uses CP, lets say 500, and the other guy, we'll call him you, uses 0 CP. Then the difference is greater. Simple math really.

I think you have a point. Hypothetically though, if skill does make a big difference in how players are able to complete and compete in content, then at what champion point level do the bonuses from champion points really start to make that big of a difference?

We also have to imagine that players are going to quickly get maxed on how much champion points matter to them. A dps isn't going to need Heavy Armor Focus, so, eventually, their champion points will literally go to waste.

Mitchblue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

1 is better than 0. 2 is better than 1. You're welcome.

Let's pretend that a player has 1% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 21.6 points.

Now lets pretend that a player has 2% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 43.2 points.

1.0 is only better than 0.2 to the same extent that a billionaire would be more rich if they had 1 more dollar. The billionaire would be more rich, but not significantly so.

But it doesn't stop there.. If someone uses CP, lets say 500, and the other guy, we'll call him you, uses 0 CP. Then the difference is greater. Simple math really.

I think you have a point. Hypothetically though, if skill does make a big difference in how players are able to complete and compete in content, then at what champion point level do the bonuses from champion points really start to make that big of a difference?

We also have to imagine that players are going to quickly get maxed on how much champion points matter to them. A dps isn't going to need Heavy Armor Focus, so, eventually, their champion points will literally go to waste.

You said more powerful, the title of you post. Yes is the answer. Making a big difference? That's a different question entirely.. Maybe you need to make a new thread.

If anything the thread could be renamed 'more powerful in a significant way.' Some players have brought up very good points, but I have also shown quite a few of the passives to not really matter a whole lot.

All I know I rather have 32% crit instead of 20% crit. I rather have 1500 Magic regen over 1200 Magic regen. If people have the same number of CP it's a wash but I rather have than not.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

1 is better than 0. 2 is better than 1. You're welcome.

Let's pretend that a player has 1% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 21.6 points.

Now lets pretend that a player has 2% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 43.2 points.

1.0 is only better than 0.2 to the same extent that a billionaire would be more rich if they had 1 more dollar. The billionaire would be more rich, but not significantly so.

But it doesn't stop there.. If someone uses CP, lets say 500, and the other guy, we'll call him you, uses 0 CP. Then the difference is greater. Simple math really.

I think you have a point. Hypothetically though, if skill does make a big difference in how players are able to complete and compete in content, then at what champion point level do the bonuses from champion points really start to make that big of a difference?

We also have to imagine that players are going to quickly get maxed on how much champion points matter to them. A dps isn't going to need Heavy Armor Focus, so, eventually, their champion points will literally go to waste.

You said more powerful, the title of you post. Yes is the answer. Making a big difference? That's a different question entirely.. Maybe you need to make a new thread.

If anything the thread could be renamed 'more powerful in a significant way.' Some players have brought up very good points, but I have also shown quite a few of the passives to not really matter a whole lot.

I disagree you cherry picked which ones that suited your argument and outright ignored others. In actuality you proved nothing

What champion point passives would you like to discuss?

Elfborn, Spell erosion, Elemental expert, spell shield, resistant, thaumaturge, mighty, piercing, precise strikes, elemental defender, Hardy, and Bastion. Each and every point into those passive will make one a more powerful player, Diminished returns or not you will deal more damage and take less.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Sithisvoid wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

1 is better than 0. 2 is better than 1. You're welcome.

Let's pretend that a player has 1% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 21.6 points.

Now lets pretend that a player has 2% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 43.2 points.

1.0 is only better than 0.2 to the same extent that a billionaire would be more rich if they had 1 more dollar. The billionaire would be more rich, but not significantly so.

But it doesn't stop there.. If someone uses CP, lets say 500, and the other guy, we'll call him you, uses 0 CP. Then the difference is greater. Simple math really.

I think you have a point. Hypothetically though, if skill does make a big difference in how players are able to complete and compete in content, then at what champion point level do the bonuses from champion points really start to make that big of a difference?

We also have to imagine that players are going to quickly get maxed on how much champion points matter to them. A dps isn't going to need Heavy Armor Focus, so, eventually, their champion points will literally go to waste.

You said more powerful, the title of you post. Yes is the answer. Making a big difference? That's a different question entirely.. Maybe you need to make a new thread.

If anything the thread could be renamed 'more powerful in a significant way.' Some players have brought up very good points, but I have also shown quite a few of the passives to not really matter a whole lot.

I disagree you cherry picked which ones that suited your argument and outright ignored others. In actuality you proved nothing

What champion point passives would you like to discuss?

Elfborn, Spell erosion, Elemental expert, spell shield, resistant, thaumaturge, mighty, piercing, precise strikes, elemental defender, Hardy, and Bastion. Each and every point into those passive will make one a more powerful player, Diminished returns or not you will deal more damage and take less.

What about dealing more damage and taking less damage in a significant way? When do you start to consider a bonus to make a big difference in how skilled players are able to complete and compete in content?

Any amount is significant. As long as my numbers go up i consider that a significant gain. If i sit to consider one point then im wasting time that could be spent earning my next one and they add up.

Well it's obvious from the title of the thread "Do Champion Points Really Help Players Get More Powerful?" that the answer is no.

I, as a Player, do not get more powerful due to Champion points. My character, on the other hand, probably will. Skill makes the player, gear, skill points, morph, Champion points etc make the character.

Surak73 wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Well that is some peoples opinions, but really champion points can't be that big of a deal. It's not like players with champion points are better off than players without. Right?

Of course they aren't, like a man with a Ferrari is not a better driver than a man with a Ford Fiesta. However, the man with a Ferrari usually arrives first...

Victus wrote: »

Well it's obvious from the title of the thread "Do Champion Points Really Help Players Get More Powerful?" that the answer is no.

I, as a Player, do not get more powerful due to Champion points. My character, on the other hand, probably will. Skill makes the player, gear, skill points, morph, Champion points etc make the character.

These are both interesting perspectives to my question. Thanks to both of you for the interesting responses.

This is possibly the strangest post I've ever read.

Champion points mean every thing if you know what you're doing. .... and the people saying "player skill and gear mean more than 1000 champion points" seriously don't know what they're talking about.

For an example, a vet 14 with 55 points in stamina and the best gear with no CP could get to maybe around 3200 weapon damage.... and be an extremely good player.

A vet 14 with 1k champion points would have about 330 CP stacked into mighty..... giving him possibly 4k weapon damage even with a white void steel great sword and no set bonus'.

This guy with no skill could literally crit rush into someone, land wrecking blow and the fight is over.... where is the skill in that.

Same goes with any class.....

A templar could have no gear, toppling charge someone and spam puncturing sweep and literally do the same thing.

I'm not saying it would be impossible for someone with no champion points to kill someone with 1000.... but cp really are a game changer.... the skilled player could out perform this guy using his 1 million coins worth of gear, tri regen provisions, using kiting with a bow and playing his class extremely well involving well timed combos and the use of all abilities..... but this guy with 1k CP could literally land 1 lucky hit and end it all right there, with no skill involved.


So yes..... CP mean everything, and if you think otherwise you're deluded.