Do Champion Points Really Help Players Get More Powerful?

The_Conquerer

Yes

a game like this barely requires skill every player and every class im pvp pretty much run the exact same thing and the people who always win 1vX battles are the guys with 200+ champion points. If you honestly think you could compete with someone with 200 cp and you having none you will get recked every single time no question about it. Just invest all your CP wisely.

RazielSR

Yes

The question itself seems a joke. The whole turn the game had with cp was just for zos to earn more money with exp pots and future p2w items. All the people saying no is spending 100€ or $ every month with exp pots and grinding 8 hours a day.

k2blader

Yes

Anyone voting no needs to eat more brain food. :-)

Also, can't tell if the OP is trying to be "funny."

anitajoneb17_ESO

No

k2blader wrote: »

Anyone voting no needs to eat more brain food. :-)

Also, can't tell if the OP is trying to be "funny."

The "No" could actually be interpreted as a yes. But a yes to what ? That remains to be determined. Because, as you could notice, there are diminishing returns on the "No". From a certain level and beyond, it becomes a "yes", but that is also inversely impacted by the level of funniness that OP is trying to achieve (or not) and whatever is left of popcorn in his place and our places. Does popcorn count as brain food ?

Krycek89

Regardless of if CP means nothing or happens to mean something, 1.5 was the best patch yet. [/quote]

You didn't answer the question, just diverted it- are you a politician?

I ask again; at via your comments i am lead to believe that you are in the court that "CP doesn't make you stronger"

Then i would assume you would also want cp removed.

Krycek89

Suru wrote: »

Of course, no one can really refute that CP makes a player stronger. Whether it is damage, sustain or mitigation. They all lead to a player being stronger. Predictable poll is predictable. If you have CP tho, you spend the time,effort and dedication to reach that level of CP, therefore SHOULD be stronger.

Not everyone has 12 hours a day to sit and smash their faces upon a keyboard grinding mobs, do they?

Kronosphere

No

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Mitchblue wrote: »

1 is better than 0. 2 is better than 1. You're welcome.

Let's pretend that a player has 1% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 21.6 points.

Now lets pretend that a player has 2% block cost reduction. That would reduce their block cost by 43.2 points.

1.0 is only better than 0.2 to the same extent that a billionaire would be more rich if they had 1 more dollar. The billionaire would be more rich, but not significantly so.

But it doesn't stop there.. If someone uses CP, lets say 500, and the other guy, we'll call him you, uses 0 CP. Then the difference is greater. Simple math really.

I think you have a point. Hypothetically though, if skill does make a big difference in how players are able to complete and compete in content, then at what champion point level do the bonuses from champion points really start to make that big of a difference?

We also have to imagine that players are going to quickly get maxed on how much champion points matter to them. A dps isn't going to need Heavy Armor Focus, so, eventually, their champion points will literally go to waste.

You said more powerful, the title of you post. Yes is the answer. Making a big difference? That's a different question entirely.. Maybe you need to make a new thread.

If anything the thread could be renamed 'more powerful in a significant way.' Some players have brought up very good points, but I have also shown quite a few of the passives to not really matter a whole lot.

ok i will bite, though i still think your trolling... that or you have a really weird way of trying to prove a point..

take 2 players of equal skill (exactly) and equal ping, both standing on equal terrain. they are 100% identical in every way other than the fact one has more cp.

now it may not decide a fight EVERYTIME but putting it this way you know which one you would put money on to win. the one with a bit more cp. sure if they both have dodge abilities the RNG may make the weaker one win also crit rng the weaker one may get lucky even with lower crit chance from having no cp in crit but still do it enough times and the one with more cp will perform better.

blergh cant believe i answered this seriously.. so gross.

p.s. LOL at the guy who thinks people like sypher etc 1vx ONLY because they have 200 more cp.. whatever helps you sleep at night @The_Conquerer

Violynne

Yes

CP definitely buffs characters, though you may not notice it immediately because of the "0.2%" increased leveling. Get these numbers to start rounding to whole numbers and you can definitely tell the difference.

If you're in doubt, do this:
Spend CP in something like improved weapon damage. Get it to 10%. Play for a while. Then, pay some gold and reset the skill tree to something else.

If you don't notice the change after this, well, I don't know how you couldn't.

Ironically, one of my best CP points (and I forget where it's at) is the passive that unlocks after spending 20 skill points where it gives me a 10% chance at doubling my mats. This has been a blessing I never considered would have a huge impact.

Imagine picking up an Aspect rune and netting two Kuta stones. Hell yeah! Too bad it's only happened to me once.

I'm only focused on three CP points:
Armor (which really helps given I'm wearing light)
Damage from staff
Magicka, magicka, magicka, magicka. I have so much magicka I don't even sweat running out.

Tabre

No

No, LT, there is no cure for nub.

tplink3r1

Yes

Yes, and i like it.

Dru1076

Yes

Lots of factors affect how well you do in this game. But yes...champion points do help. To suggest otherwise is a little foolish, no offence. If they didn't, they would not exist.

delushin

I get excited when I see a Z has posted but that is now losing its class as it is never directed to the topic or answering things we are asking, its always just a boot up the backside.

MamaDruid

Well done @Personofsecrets, well done.

Egonieser

Yes

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I'm having a hard time understanding the effects of champion points. I'm told that my stats, regeneration, and penetration will all go up if I invest champion points into certain specifications.

I really don't understand how that happens though. Is it really true that I will be more powerful with more champion points? Becoming more powerful due to have more champion points would have tons of repercussions. I mean, I would be doing more damage, doing more healing, and taking less damage. I just have a hard time accepting that.

Yes and no.

Yes - they can give you huge buffs to every single aspect of your character IF you have a huge quantity of them
No - individually the point gives you neglegable increase that you otherwise would not notice, hence we go back to the point above.

There are a total of 3600 points. Means 20% increase to every single aspect, stat, increase, decrease of your skills/regens/reduction costs/armour penetrations/sneak/sprint/dodge etc and when all summed it up - it gives a huge power advantage. Because unlike armour and items/attributes you gain during leveling/gearing only give you increases to that some particular aspects of your build, whereas champion points can be used to give you increases to all your characters stats, except from obviously increasing your magicka/stamina/health/damage directly, but rather making them more efficient.

And before you know it, there will be people hitting that mark, as ZoS horribly underestimated the time it takes to achieve it, especially for people who have no life apart from their gaming life.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Yes

Flameheart wrote: »

Although your remarks to your vote sound pretty unhonest to me (you behave like a suprised child, that just realized that there is no Santa Claus, sorry this hard to believe for a 5-star-poster...), because just having a look on the system and investing some points into it makes it clear...

Most of my favorite 5-star posters are banned...

I have to admit I like the system, because it's an alternative to further character developement other MMOs do not offer (there the system is called -> get max lvl -> grind gear mostly by raiding -> wait for lvl cap raise and cry on the forum because all your hard earned gear is worthless now), but I see disadvantages too.

WAIT WAIT WAIT

So the benefits of the champion system, and the reason you support it, is that it PREVENTS level cap raise and gear grabs??????


Lets me say this one more time to be clear. You consider the Champ system to be horizontal progression (because it has multiple trees) and it PREVENTS gear grabs????.

I DONT EVEN...

We are told: A subscription fee will ensure higher quality content and constitent new content release
We get: Game breaking bugs that last for a year, no consistent content release, eventual switch to B2P model.

We are told: The champion point system will keep us from constant level cap increases and gear grabs.
We get: Constant level increases and gear grabs.

It seems to me that whenever ZOS adds or changes systems in this game, we get the downsides of BOTH choices.

Sausage

Yes

MMORPG has always been about character progression. I dont honestly get how this thread got 4 pages tbh.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

Well, really it comes down to player skill. It's not like a group of players that have many champion points, but are unskilled, are going to be better off than players who have few champion points, but are very skilled.

Tell me one thing. When you see someone on the top of the leader boards do you think that they must be skilled or do you think that they must have some small champion point advantage over other players. I mean, in a group of 12 people, so what if one of them has 1000 champion points - that one player couldn't make the raid a higher score just by themselves. Could they?

The point is that high CP and low skill means you're bad, but on a higher level. If you have two equally skilled groups and one has higher CP, this group will be better without question.

And as for the argument that you get much more from your gear than from your CP, you have to see the whole picture. More CP allows for OTHER gear choices, making you stronger than the person without this choice. For example, CP increase your sustain, lower your costs and increase healing/damage of your skills. You get much more effective, and since you don't have to get sustain from your gear anymore you can go for higher damage.

How anyone can see this as everything but a gain in power...

I think that I am starting to come around. Answer me this though.

Could this champion point "power gain" effect be seen in a group or raid? I mean, a dungeon like Veteran White Gold Tower is easy and I can't imagine that champion points could possibly make a difference for a group that is trying to complete it. It's not like 40 points into elemental defender is really going to protect a lesser skilled player against any of the bosses in that dungeons.

I remember when CP was first introduced and they gave 75 CP for everyone at vr14, vet dungeons became alot easier.

Personofsecrets

Sausage wrote: »

MMORPG has always been about character progression. I dont honestly get how this thread got 4 pages tbh.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

Well, really it comes down to player skill. It's not like a group of players that have many champion points, but are unskilled, are going to be better off than players who have few champion points, but are very skilled.

Tell me one thing. When you see someone on the top of the leader boards do you think that they must be skilled or do you think that they must have some small champion point advantage over other players. I mean, in a group of 12 people, so what if one of them has 1000 champion points - that one player couldn't make the raid a higher score just by themselves. Could they?

The point is that high CP and low skill means you're bad, but on a higher level. If you have two equally skilled groups and one has higher CP, this group will be better without question.

And as for the argument that you get much more from your gear than from your CP, you have to see the whole picture. More CP allows for OTHER gear choices, making you stronger than the person without this choice. For example, CP increase your sustain, lower your costs and increase healing/damage of your skills. You get much more effective, and since you don't have to get sustain from your gear anymore you can go for higher damage.

How anyone can see this as everything but a gain in power...

I think that I am starting to come around. Answer me this though.

Could this champion point "power gain" effect be seen in a group or raid? I mean, a dungeon like Veteran White Gold Tower is easy and I can't imagine that champion points could possibly make a difference for a group that is trying to complete it. It's not like 40 points into elemental defender is really going to protect a lesser skilled player against any of the bosses in that dungeons.

I remember when CP was first introduced and they gave 75 CP for everyone at vr14, vet dungeons became alot easier.

Well, quite a few of the mechanics, such as with Praxin Douare and High Kinlord Rillis, were changed and made easier.

Sausage

Yes

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Sausage wrote: »

MMORPG has always been about character progression. I dont honestly get how this thread got 4 pages tbh.

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

You get increased stats/other bonuses without any downside. How would this not make you stronger?

Well, really it comes down to player skill. It's not like a group of players that have many champion points, but are unskilled, are going to be better off than players who have few champion points, but are very skilled.

Tell me one thing. When you see someone on the top of the leader boards do you think that they must be skilled or do you think that they must have some small champion point advantage over other players. I mean, in a group of 12 people, so what if one of them has 1000 champion points - that one player couldn't make the raid a higher score just by themselves. Could they?

The point is that high CP and low skill means you're bad, but on a higher level. If you have two equally skilled groups and one has higher CP, this group will be better without question.

And as for the argument that you get much more from your gear than from your CP, you have to see the whole picture. More CP allows for OTHER gear choices, making you stronger than the person without this choice. For example, CP increase your sustain, lower your costs and increase healing/damage of your skills. You get much more effective, and since you don't have to get sustain from your gear anymore you can go for higher damage.

How anyone can see this as everything but a gain in power...

I think that I am starting to come around. Answer me this though.

Could this champion point "power gain" effect be seen in a group or raid? I mean, a dungeon like Veteran White Gold Tower is easy and I can't imagine that champion points could possibly make a difference for a group that is trying to complete it. It's not like 40 points into elemental defender is really going to protect a lesser skilled player against any of the bosses in that dungeons.

I remember when CP was first introduced and they gave 75 CP for everyone at vr14, vet dungeons became alot easier.

Well, quite a few of the mechanics, such as with Praxin Douare and High Kinlord Rillis, were changed and made easier.

I see but this is still odd thread.

Cookiethief

Yes

I have 200 CPs and good gear, I fought someone with 1200 cps same level and class, pretty much felt like there was nothing I could do

subbssb14_ESO

Yes

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Champion points have a direct impact on players ability to complete and compete in content. Everyone knows this.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2246850/#Comment_2246850

Personofsecrets wrote: »

I'm really hoping that you all can explain to me how champion points make a player more powerful. I just am not getting it.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/216290/do-champion-points-really-help-players-get-more-powerful

This thread may provide interesting discussion, but let's be clear here. You can make up your own minds about what the OP's intentions are for yourselves.

Everything I would say on this topic has already been beaten to death. Yes CPs make you stronger, and yes it is significant. Your overall combat ability is made up of many factors, skill is by far the largest factor of course, which has a very high ceiling. Your level and attributes are also important but they have a cap to how much they can increase. Your gear makes a big difference, not just for the stats but for the 5 piece special bonuses that can sometimes make a build possible. Ability to get gear is tied to level as well but because most of the best gear are random drops from chests/containers/npcs, there is some "climbing" to do to get to the top of the gear "ladder"...

Then we come to CP. The limit on CP at 3600 points is so high that for the current time they might as well be limitless since no one is close to the cap, however because of diminishing returns you could say that the bonuses become negligible between players at some number X before the cap. However this is not entirely true because having more points lets you unlock more of the constellation bonuses, which can be a more significant difference than the passives themselves after a while because of the diminishing returns. My point is that CPs effectively are levels beyond the max level, the difference between someone with zero points and someone with 400, combining all the small benefits from all the CP trees (max health, magic, stam, regens, cost reduction, damage increases, crit chance, crit damage/heals, heal procs, snare procs, damage reductions, damage procs, resist penetration, etc) can end up being a 15-20% increase in your overall combat effectiveness. With 1000 CP how much higher will it go? Maybe only 30% because of diminishing returns, I don't know yet.

Is a 15-20% increase to your overall combat power significant? Yes absolutely. Is it more than player skill? No, of course not.
But you already knew that OP.

EDIT: corrected formatting mistake

Personofsecrets

subbssb14_ESO wrote: »

Is a 15-20% increase to your overall combat power significant? Yes absolutely. Is it more than player skill? No, of course not.
But you already knew that OP.

You bring up a great point. Players have to be extremely skilled to play this game. If we could rate skill of players, then it would be like every point of skill causing every corresponding champion point to be negligible.

kalimar44

Yes

Checkout this site. http://deltiasgaming.com/2015/02/23/eso-champion-system/

radiostar

Yes

It might be hard to feel the effects 1-50 b/c your raw char is more than adequate to get through the questing at those levels, with all the rewards and drops and treasure chest gear. But in VR it does make a difference, even with the major nerfs Z has done to us. The more CP the better!

Personofsecrets

kalimar44 wrote: »

Checkout this site. http://deltiasgaming.com/2015/02/23/eso-champion-system/

You bring up an excellent resource. I was discussing tanking with @Deltia on stream and the end of the discussion involved him saying how tanking has gotten much easier since the introduction of champion points and because of that drop in difficulty the stamina regeneration nerf was justifiable.

This brings us to an interesting question.

If players are just going to be nerfd once they achieve greater strength with their champion points, then, at the end of the day, did those champion points really help make players more powerful? If we are just going to be nerfd whenever things become too easy, then it seems like champion points are a really silly thing to bother to get.

I mean, I thought that the entire point of champion points was to get stronger, but I'm not really seeing that with tanking @ZOS_RichLambert . I'm especially not seeing it if us tanks are going to suffer severe nerfs as soon as we pass the next arbitrary threshold, established by the streaming community, of what is too easy and not fun for tanks. That feels really wrong. Really, really wrong.

MamaDruid

Interesting times. In Warcraft the raiders seemed to dictate change for some time. Are we now in the age of the streamer? I'm sure there's someone for whom it feels right.

Tabre

No

Personofsecrets wrote: »

You bring up a great point. Players have to be extremely skilled to play this game. If we could rate skill of players, then it would be like every point of skill causing every corresponding champion point to be negligible.

LMAO

Bhakura

Yes

Even if a CP is only 0.1% increase, a player with 300 points in a stat then an other with 10 points in same stat is theoretically far stronger.
So most definitely yes, on paper.

Bhakura

Yes

ontheleftcoast wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

RoyJade wrote: »

You got some good increase with CP (more healing, more damage, more regen, less cost) from 15 to 25% depending of the star, plus the constellation bonus (12% critical mainly). But the main change is that each time you spend a CP, you get some stat. I don't remember how many exactly, perhaps a +25 for each CP (red = life, blue = magicka, green = stamina).

Yea, I just added a point and got 18 magic. I don't get how that makes me more powerful though.

One point isn't as much as one level of XP, granted. But a little more magicka means your spells are a little more powerful. Not a lot, but some. And you also made the other toons in your stable stronger. Because it doesn't matter which toon gains the CP, all them can use it. So a sorcerer can use his points to buff his staff light attacks and his magicka regen and light armor and your stamina NB can use theirs to buff bladed weapon damage, stamina regen, and medium armor. That's pretty amazing. Grind on one toon and make up to 8 of them better? Umm, what's not to love about that?

huh? How is getting cp on one toon make others better?

Reverb

Yes

This statement is from 1.6, but still rings pretty true:

Reverb wrote: »

Because my Barrier is so strong that my team is almost impervious to damage; because my spell cost is so low and my regen so high that I can cast nonstop and never run out of mana; because my armour and spell resistance is so high that even if you get through my stacked shields, you will be as effective as a gnat....unless you have even more CP than me and can slice right through those protections. And those are just some examples.

And even with the claimed diminishing returns, you will never catch up with me. Just as I will never catch up with those who have a lot more CP than I do.

BlackEar

No

This is funny.