Magicka Templar DPS Thaumaturge - but I want spell critical not weapon!!

EgoRush · May 2015

Apologies if a topic on this exists - I wasn't able to find it if so.

Magicka Templar DPS builds that focus around Puncturing Sweep, Radiant Oppression, Blazing Spear and Solar Barrage, all of which do magic damage, are at a disadvantage to other magicka classes that rely on elemental damage due to the Champion System.

We want the 12% spell crit (Spell Precision), but we also want points in Thaumaturge to boost our abilities in the way magicka DKs can with Elemental Expert. However, we have to split our points between 2 trees and unlock a bunch of passives that do nothing for our builds.

This issues similarly extends to magicka Nightblades and Sorcerers who have many class skills that do magic damage.

Does it make sense to have magic damage in what is essentially a physical hitting tree of the Champion System?

I want magic damage to be moved to The Apprentice. Poison and disease can stay where they are - these are essentially physical damages anyway right? E.g. maybe alter Elemental Expert to simply increase damage with spells rather than only the elements? Perhaps a bad suggestion *shrug*.

Then magicka Templars can rule the world better contend in end-game PvE content.

LameoveR · May 2015

Sorc's got only 4 class skills that deals magic damage. 2 of them in separate skill trees.
NBs prefer stamina builds.
DKs benefits from Fire Damage.
Your Templar must deal with it. Put 30 CP in Blessed for better healing +1 into Spell Precision, other into Thaumaturge.
Yep, life is pain.

r.jan_emailb16_ESO · May 2015

EgoRush wrote: »

Does it make sense to have magic damage in what is essentially a physical hitting tree of the Champion System?

Of course not, but what did you expect

I understand why it is split from the elemental damage stuff, but yeah.

Stannum · May 2015

Look you cannot focus CP on one constellation for every build. And really i do not see any problems for magika templars/NBs as you can invest to spell erosion or elfborn to open spell presision (and both are very usefull for magika builds) and then invest to Thaumaturge.

RoyJade · May 2015

You need a lot more CP to have both spell precision and your skill damage increase than Dk or pve sorc (pvp one use magicka damage ability) indeed. Another bonus giving to DK.
I now have 76 cp in the mage constellation, so I can have a decent amount of point in elfborn/spell erosion/elemental damage (as a sorc) and 10 points in staff expert and now some points in thaumaturge. But before, I've seen my force shock growing better and better, when my crystal shard gain only a very small amount of damage.

And just for logic : magicka damage in physical tree, no. But magicka damage caused by stamina build, no again (or just a little). I hope ZOS will change that soon.

lolo_01b16_ESO · May 2015

EgoRush wrote: »

Does it make sense to have magic damage in what is essentially a physical hitting tree of the Champion System?

Yes it does make sense as there is a difference between magic damage and damage caused by skills that cost magica. A magicka user needs to spend points in the ritual to get his magic damage increased, a stamina user needs to spent points in the apprentice to get spell penetration to increase his magic damage.

PKMN12 · May 2015

considering the templar is meant to be about divine power and such, it only makes sense that a lot of their powers use elemental damage.

EgoRush · May 2015

LameoveR wrote: »

Sorc's got only 4 class skills that deals magic damage. 2 of them in separate skill trees.
NBs prefer stamina builds.
DKs benefits from Fire Damage.
Your Templar must deal with it. Put 30 CP in Blessed for better healing +1 into Spell Precision, other into Thaumaturge.
Yep, life is pain.

Only 4 skills? That's nearly an entire bar. When DPS rotations can be based around as few as 2-3 skills I don't see how this is a counterargument at all, irrespective of them being in different trees.
NBs prefer stamina builds is a generalisation - I know NBs that do magicka builds too, why can't both be a viable option?
Deal with it by putting 30 points into Blessed??? I'm not sure that will do much to help a magicka DPS build.
Thanks for the contribution though!

r.jan_emailb16_ESO wrote: »

I understand why it is split from the elemental damage stuff, but yeah.

Yeah I can understand it being separate to elemental damage, but it is a pain to have it split from a constellation clearly designed for magicka builds

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

Look you cannot focus CP on one constellation for every build. And really i do not see any problems for magika templars/NBs as you can invest to spell erosion or elfborn to open spell presision (and both are very usefull for magika builds) and then invest to Thaumaturge.

Most DKs spam all their points into Elemental Expert over Elfborn and Spell Erosion because the gains they get are much more fruitful. Spell Erosion is useless in some circumstances and Elfborn gives less of a damage bonus than Thaumaturge if you remove the Spell Precision passive from the equation. Ergo, Templar cannot utilise the Champion System as well as a DK.

By shifting points from The Apprentice into The Ritual I'm gaining some useless passives over great ones like Foresight and Arcane Well because we're forced to split. I know it's a bit of a whinge, and I'm biased towards Templars, but what stamina build focuses on doing magic damage? Magic/magicka in my eyes :P

EgoRush · May 2015

PKMN12 wrote: »

considering the templar is meant to be about divine power and such, it only makes sense that a lot of their powers use elemental damage.

Haha have you read the tool tip for Radiant Oppression? Something like "burn them with a ray of holy fire........deals magic damage". Makes sense. Our only elemental attack is Vampire's Bane/Reflective Light. All the other class skills scale off magic damage.

EgoRush · May 2015

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Yes it does make sense as there is a difference between magic damage and damage caused by skills that cost magica. A magicka user needs to spend points in the ritual to get his magic damage increased, a stamina user needs to spent points in the apprentice to get spell penetration to increase his magic damage.

This doesn't make sense to me

I understand the difference between magic damage and damage caused by skills costing magicka. But why on earth would a stamina user need to spend points in The Apprentice to get spell penetration for his magic damage? Wouldn't a stamina user be dealing physical damage. Also, Spell Erosion only counts for spells I think, not physical attacks, so a stamina user benefits nothing from this. They can spam all their points into The Ritual quite happily

lolo_01b16_ESO · May 2015

EgoRush wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Yes it does make sense as there is a difference between magic damage and damage caused by skills that cost magica. A magicka user needs to spend points in the ritual to get his magic damage increased, a stamina user needs to spent points in the apprentice to get spell penetration to increase his magic damage.

This doesn't make sense to me I understand the difference between magic damage and damage caused by skills costing magicka. But why on earth would a stamina user need to spend points in The Apprentice to get spell penetration for his magic damage? Wouldn't a stamina user be dealing physical damage. Also, Spell Erosion only counts for spells I think, not physical attacks, so a stamina user benefits nothing from this. They can spam all their points into The Ritual quite happily

Depending on the fight 30%+ of the damage I deal with my stamina nb is magic or elemental damage, so I need spell penetration.

Stannum · May 2015

EgoRush wrote: »

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

Look you cannot focus CP on one constellation for every build. And really i do not see any problems for magika templars/NBs as you can invest to spell erosion or elfborn to open spell presision (and both are very usefull for magika builds) and then invest to Thaumaturge.

Most DKs spam all their points into Elemental Expert over Elfborn and Spell Erosion because the gains they get are much more fruitful. Spell Erosion is useless in some circumstances and Elfborn gives less of a damage bonus than Thaumaturge if you remove the Spell Precision passive from the equation. Ergo, Templar cannot utilise the Champion System as well as a DK.

Not every build ideally fits the game mechanics. DK can synergies destro and class skills as most of them do elemental dmg and Templars and NB cannot. Sorcs can synergies storm calling with staves but cannot dark magik. The more CP you invest the less is influence, so in the long run Elfborn and Spell Erosion points will add more effect then taumaturge or elemental expert.

EgoRush · May 2015

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Depending on the fight 30%+ of the damage I deal with my stamina nb is magic or elemental damage, so I need spell penetration.

Ah I get it. Then yes, you're in a similar predicament of the CP system not working optimally for us yet

dancing.in.the.webeb17_ESO wrote: »

Not every build ideally fits the game mechanics. DK can synergies destro and class skills as most of them do elemental dmg and Templars and NB cannot. Sorcs can synergies storm calling with staves but cannot dark magik. The more CP you invest the less is influence, so in the long run Elfborn and Spell Erosion points will add more effect then taumaturge or elemental expert.

Yeah you're right that this is a redundant argument once we have enough CP to max out a few things, but my impatience at grinding CP makes me want to whinge about it. I swear the developers of this game all run DKs as their main chars - they often seem to come out on top :P good job I have a DK almost battle ready now.

olsborg · May 2015

The CP system isnt exactly that logical (to me)

EgoRush · May 2015

olsborg wrote: »

The CP system isnt exactly that logical (to me)

I suppose they are trying to promote diversity with builds. We just need to be clever about how we make the most of it in the early days. Once we've all grinded for a year it'll be moot as everyone will have everything unlocked and will become gods in the current content.

I suppose new content will be progressively more difficult to reflect CP progression - but they what do new players do? Fail to attempt the latest content until they are 6-8 months further down the grind?

F7sus4 · May 2015

EgoRush wrote: »

Does it make sense to have magic damage in what is essentially a physical hitting tree of the Champion System?

No, it doesn't.

And it's actually quite funny, since when I provided feedback on that before/around 1.6 launch (here), no one really seemed to understand the obvious issue. You started to show up now, however. A bit too late.

But yeah, the bonuses each constellation provides should complement what you're actually investing your Champion Points in. All they do, is providing random (and mostly useless) bonuses.

Mayrael · June 2015

Y its kind of anoying that again magica based classes are kicked in... brain, but i rly dont count on any change.

Alcast · June 2015

My Idea of ZOS creating the CP system.

"Ok, Magicka...hmmmm..What do we need Ele expert, spell pene, more crit etc etc.....then when the tree was full." >>>

"Holy mother we forgot Magic damage type, well *** happens, lets put it in the physical tree, nobody will notice anyway. Also doesnt matter because we are aiming at casuals and they will not give a flying f.... nor will they ever notice."

Same *** for Stamina builds, Why do I have to put points into Spellpenetration and Elemental damage for Ultimates? da f..

ZOS has so much logic it doesnt even make sense for us anymore!

Zorgon_The_Revenged · June 2015

Bring back the "LOL" button for this entire topic please ZOS

PBpsy · June 2015

A short history lesson.
What has actually happened was this:

-ZOS decided to make game.
-ZOS decided to follow the Stam & Magicka TES model without almost nothing else that made that system "work" in those game.
-ZOS decided to add 4 classes.
-ZOS did not make 3 of those 4 classes lame ass fighter , lame ass ranger and lame ass rogue.
-ZOS thought that people will just build around those 4 classes and stamina/magicka.
-ZOS launches game
-75%+ of players want to play a lame ass fighter , lame ass ranger and lame ass rogue.
-75%+ of players do not like using the blue bar since their favorite color is green
-due to various reasons using the blue stuff is most efficient.
-the people that get killed in pvp with their not very efficient lame ass fighters , lame ass rangers and lame ass rogues start whining.
-ZOS starts to buff Stamina and nerf the blue stuff.
-for a short period it seems that ZOS knows what they are doing and stam increases in power without major magicka nerfs.
-ZOS looses track of what they re doing and even starts to destroy entire systems.
-ZOS claims that their adjustments are incremental but in truth most is a mess. Some skill get nerfed once to maybe a acceptable level. Immediately entire systems are changed making those previously nerfed skills completely useless.ZOS never actually take time to look back at their previous changes and see if those changes are still reasonable under the new model.
-ZOS removes dynamic ultimate generation.All the build diversity of pve is eliminated. Stack SP or WP and use meteor every 40 seconds or so. End group content is reduced to DPS DPS DPS even more than before.None of the actual problems that were supposed to be fixed are fixed.
-ZOS introduces champ system. Main goals are of course how to make magicka builds more awkward to play and manage and how to make people use more heavy attacks.Huge success.
....
The console wait dark ages.....

......Certain DOOOMMMM......

F7sus4 · June 2015

Zorgon_The_Revenged wrote: »

Bring back the "LOL" button for this entire topic please ZOS

Yeah, it would be a nice idea, so you could get a proper amount of them for the brilliant insight that you provided.

Alcast wrote: »

"Ok, Magicka...hmmmm..What do we need Ele expert, spell pene, more crit etc etc.....then when the tree was full." >>>

"Holy mother we forgot Magic damage type, well *** happens, lets put it in the physical tree, nobody will notice anyway. Also doesnt matter because we are aiming at casuals and they will not give a flying f.... nor will they ever notice."

^ this!

Cinbri · June 2015

Don't see a big deal here.C'mon main templar problem is survivability and main strength no negate it is healing. You need to stack Aprrentice as templar anyway with your first magicka CP it also giving you 12% spell crit, so it working for templars, not against.

Alcast · June 2015

Cinbri wrote: »

Don't see a big deal here.C'mon main templar problem is survivability and main strength no negate it is healing. You need to stack Aprrentice as templar anyway with your first magicka CP it also giving you 12% spell crit, so it working for templars, not against.

woo what?

Most of Templar skills(Mage builds) are magic damage type which is thaumaturge which is in the ritual for Stamina builds.

Only fire damage is from reflective light