The dark secrets of P2W...
-
Lukati_K✭✭✭Why, someone who has and invests much time can be better?
Why, someone who has and invests a lot of money can not be?
We all have 24 hours in the day. The people that 'have more time to play' don't actually have more time. They choose to spend their time in a different manner. Some game, some work, some have families, but its all their time, and their choices.
We don't, however, all have the same wages.
I think it's clear that time offers a much more even playing field. Those who don't have time, well, you only have yourselves to blame, no?
Edited by Lukati_K on 23 March 2015 15:104 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
MMORPG haven't an infinite growth. I would say it is asymptotic.
And there is the fact that people who stay home and play 16h/day haven't the income to chug potions.
Quite the stereotypes you have there.
Increasingly large amounts of people are working from home/self-employed these days, and then there's the rich people and kids who use their parents' credit cards.
You couldn't be more wrong and what you write just comes off presumptuous.So, in my view OP is right: do you have time to play? Good for you, now you can do it for free.
Do you work and have some money to spare? Good for you and for the guy who play all day for free: you'll be strong as him but you'll have to pay for everybody else.
It's a win/win scenario IMHO.
It would be true, if people playing 16 hours a day weren't also able to use those potions.
The only thing this creates, is that it allows people with money gain a significant advantage in power over people without money, regardless of how much both play the game.
Needless to say, this is P2W and I can't really see the point in arguing against it. It is like saying 2+2=5.
People who can stay home and play and spend thousands of $ are a little minority.
I bet that the people who keep screaming p2w, are just fat guys who live in their mama's basement.
I know it's hard for you to accept that EVEN in this virtual reality you won't be special anymore.
But here is the good news: you will be still special in tamriel, because there is nothing that others can buy that will make them stronger than you.
Lol just lol.Hortator Mopa wrote: »I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.
Some people can not win by ordinary means and become carried away by his friends to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to exploit bugs in the game rather than inform them and not use them just to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek professionals who climb them level their characters, in exchange for real money to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to have the best technological benefits to gain advantage over a large number of users who can not afford such expenditure and be better than them.
Some people can not win by normal means and invest an amount of unhealthy time, and not recommended by health organizations and even the company itself, on the computer to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means (yes, pay for benefits in a private service is right and who pay do something completely logical and normal) and oppose the use of anything that might allow others to achieve goals that they know they will not be able to achieve.
AND EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID IS EXTERNAL TO THE GAME
not a internal item you can pay for and put in by the game designers.
LOLOL thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
But everything has the same effect.
It is ridiculous what your stance.
It bother you that the company (which has the right to do what they want) can incorporate things that already exist externally.
It makes no sense.
It's more of the same, only comes from one who really has the right to do so, the company that owns the product being used.
You're giving me the reason.
Is complaining about just wanting to complain.
Your reasoning is that anyone can alter the equity and equal externally using money or other means to drive you to be the best, but if it does so through the service itself is wrong?
It's fun.
ok lets do it your way. In the real world I can come into your house and steal everything you own.
So it should be ok for them to ad that to the game right?
Going by YOUR logic I should be able to access your bank and take everything I want
awesome you are smart.
I do not understand your logic.
The virtual world of Tamriel is neither the house nor the bank of any user.
It belongs to the company, all the contents and rights belong to them.
All that is offered as a service, is theirs.
When accessing a benefit within the game you can not get anything to anyone because no user owns nothing.
As a user (depending on the usage agreement) wanted the privilege of using the services, at no time do you own anything.
Nothing is yours, got no rights to any content.
So your example is wrong.
My house is my private property, not a service and as such have the right to withdraw kindly if you try to enter.
What we have in the bank is my property, I can only use and if someone tries to take something without authorization will kindly stopped.0 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Mountain_Dewed wrote: »I peed a little^amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hi guys, it's fine to be critical or disagree, but please remember to keep your posts civil and constructive. Additionally, as covered in the forum rules, conspiracy theories tend to attract and escalate problems. They also risk attracting unwanted attention.
I'm going to laugh at people. Then I am going to drink a laugh potion and do it 50% better for the next 2 hours.
It's posts like these that make me miss the lol button.
1 -
Moiskormoimi✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
MMORPG haven't an infinite growth. I would say it is asymptotic.
And there is the fact that people who stay home and play 16h/day haven't the income to chug potions.
Quite the stereotypes you have there.
Increasingly large amounts of people are working from home/self-employed these days, and then there's the rich people and kids who use their parents' credit cards.
You couldn't be more wrong and what you write just comes off presumptuous.So, in my view OP is right: do you have time to play? Good for you, now you can do it for free.
Do you work and have some money to spare? Good for you and for the guy who play all day for free: you'll be strong as him but you'll have to pay for everybody else.
It's a win/win scenario IMHO.
It would be true, if people playing 16 hours a day weren't also able to use those potions.
The only thing this creates, is that it allows people with money gain a significant advantage in power over people without money, regardless of how much both play the game.
Needless to say, this is P2W and I can't really see the point in arguing against it. It is like saying 2+2=5.
People who can stay home and play and spend thousands of $ are a little minority.
I bet that the people who keep screaming p2w, are just fat guys who live in their mama's basement.
I know it's hard for you to accept that EVEN in this virtual reality you won't be special anymore.
But here is the good news: you will be still special in tamriel, because there is nothing that others can buy that will make them stronger than you.
Lol just lol.Hortator Mopa wrote: »I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.
Some people can not win by ordinary means and become carried away by his friends to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to exploit bugs in the game rather than inform them and not use them just to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek professionals who climb them level their characters, in exchange for real money to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to have the best technological benefits to gain advantage over a large number of users who can not afford such expenditure and be better than them.
Some people can not win by normal means and invest an amount of unhealthy time, and not recommended by health organizations and even the company itself, on the computer to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means (yes, pay for benefits in a private service is right and who pay do something completely logical and normal) and oppose the use of anything that might allow others to achieve goals that they know they will not be able to achieve.
AND EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID IS EXTERNAL TO THE GAME
not a internal item you can pay for and put in by the game designers.
LOLOL thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
But everything has the same effect.
It is ridiculous what your stance.
It bother you that the company (which has the right to do what they want) can incorporate things that already exist externally.
It makes no sense.
It's more of the same, only comes from one who really has the right to do so, the company that owns the product being used.
You're giving me the reason.
Is complaining about just wanting to complain.
Your reasoning is that anyone can alter the equity and equal externally using money or other means to drive you to be the best, but if it does so through the service itself is wrong?
It's fun.
ok lets do it your way. In the real world I can come into your house and steal everything you own.
So it should be ok for them to ad that to the game right?
Going by YOUR logic I should be able to access your bank and take everything I want awesome you are smart.
I do not understand your logic.
The virtual world of Tamriel is neither the house nor the bank of any user.
It belongs to the company, all the contents and rights belong to them.
All that is offered as a service, is theirs.
When accessing a benefit within the game you can not get anything to anyone because no user owns nothing.
As a user (depending on the usage agreement) wanted the privilege of using the services, at no time do you own anything.
Nothing is yours, got no rights to any content.
So your example is wrong.
My house is my private property, not a service and as such have the right to withdraw kindly if you try to enter.
What we have in the bank is my property, I can only use and if someone tries to take something without authorization will kindly stopped.
Not to split hairs here, but nothing is really yours in reality either. Homes have been seized for various reasons(not just foreclosure), and as we saw in The Great Depression, what you have in the bank means next to nothing in extremes (and with regard to the government). It's an illusion entirely that what is 'yours' is actually yours.
That said, online gaming is a service and there are expectations by both the consumer and the business. When those are not met, or are altered (in some cases, illegally), then we have a problem.0 -
lichmeister✭✭✭every mmo is P2W in some regard, thanks to the friendly neighbourhood goldfarmers. it really cant be helped even in the absence of an in-house cash store since its almost impossible to completely eradicate goldfarming (without a cash store
)
ESO has come a long way in their battle against GFs but im sure they are still out there: happily selling certain players an in-game advantage for hard cash.
everything i have seen in the store so far is purely cosmetic or inferior to player-made/-earned equivalents.
the concept on an experience potion in most games is far from P2W since once you hit the level cap they are useless. If ESO experience potions affect champion point earnings then that is troublingly close to P2W since a 50% boost is significant over the supposed 9+ year mountain that is the current CPS.1 -
EQBallzz✭✭✭✭✭
✭Spottswoode wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
People being able to buy better equipment irl is irrelevant to this equation. ZOS deliberately selling advantages is the crux of the discussion.
Exactly. What is with these bogus arguments about computer equipment and latency? That has nothing to do with P2W. Basically, the argument being made is that because there are external variables that nobody can control we might as well be OK with ZOS adding internal elements in the form of P2W items that we can control because...logic?1 -
Sevalaricgirl✭✭✭✭✭Not to mention that this game is not a race. What does it matter if someone beats you to end game and has to wait for others to get there.
It baffles me that there is this mad rush and "competition" to beat others to end game and such, that's a "win". It is? Really? The only win here is PvP. Getting to the end of the game fastest gives you what...bragging rights? Who cares...really.Edited by Sevalaricgirl on 23 March 2015 15:171 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Hi guys, it's fine to be critical or disagree, but please remember to keep your posts civil and constructive. Additionally, as covered in the forum rules, conspiracy theories tend to attract and escalate problems. They also risk attracting unwanted attention.
I Understand.
I changed the title to avoid confusion, thanks for the warning.0 -
maryriv✭✭✭✭This is a subject for intensive discussions on the forums of any video game.
For me, winning in this kind of video games is fun.
I like the exploration, discovering new things, have options that slightly alter the story line, feeling that my character is gradually increasing its power, participate in informal and spontaneous group events where the main objective is to help each other and not establish elitist barriers of performance where those who do not meet certain standards are left aside.
To access to all of these gaming experiences, i need to pay.
A single payment in the case of wanting to live these experiences with limited content (initial purchase of the game).
Several payment or a monthly subscription to secure the extension of such gaming experiences to all possible contents (individual purchase of future DLC or a subscription that guarantees its acquisition more certain benefits).
In all cases, to feel that I'm winning, I have to pay and I agree to do so.
You can not expect access to a luxury good (since this is not about consumption of basic need to survive) involving investment and dedication for free.
Now, considering what many others often call win, well, I think the pay may be acceptable.
Why?
First we see that refer these people to win:
¨Being the most powerful character, best of all in game¨
Now considering this premise and remembering that this is a luxury (entertainment-oriented private service) which gives the option to play for free, it is not illogical to think that those who access to pay (being this optional) acquire more power to those they decided to play for free.
In short, all those who choose to play for free, they do at the expense of those who pay.
A service that can be considered a luxury, is not financed with good intentions.
When the power of a character is measured never takes into account the time spent and the mechanical used by the user to achieve.
In many cases, those who make it, to the end have much free time and at times incur in faults as the use of game content to achieve.
Then, a factor as free time, which is external to the game itself may be an imbalance, but money does not?
A user who has an extreme amount of time has the right to be better than someone who has little time but with money to pay?
Both qualities are unrelated to the product, any belongs to the game, each one is independent and unique to each individual, but one is well regarded and other widely rejected.
I have enough experience in the gaming world to know that 24 hours sitting at the computer can be very favorable in achieving a powerful character against someone who may only play one hour daily.
Why, someone who has and invests much time can be better?
Why, someone who has and invests a lot of money can not be?
If you are against allowing the money to be influential, then being ethically consistent, they should ask the same about the amount of time a player can devote daily to his character.
Then, no external factor may favor the evolution of a character, only the ability of each individual on equitable terms.
As you know it is something that will never happen, so, back to what was said earlier.
If you want to be the best in a service that can be considered a luxury and we all know it exists because of the collection of money, then put money.
Greetings!
Edit: Title name, by suggestion of ZOS_AlanG
Careful, I pointed out in a post that the crown store potions were more powerful than crafted ones and I got a 3 day ban over frivolous accusations, meanwhile others who did the exact things I did did not get a ban.
They don't like problems being pointed out in ways like this.2 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
MMORPG haven't an infinite growth. I would say it is asymptotic.
And there is the fact that people who stay home and play 16h/day haven't the income to chug potions.
Quite the stereotypes you have there.
Increasingly large amounts of people are working from home/self-employed these days, and then there's the rich people and kids who use their parents' credit cards.
You couldn't be more wrong and what you write just comes off presumptuous.So, in my view OP is right: do you have time to play? Good for you, now you can do it for free.
Do you work and have some money to spare? Good for you and for the guy who play all day for free: you'll be strong as him but you'll have to pay for everybody else.
It's a win/win scenario IMHO.
It would be true, if people playing 16 hours a day weren't also able to use those potions.
The only thing this creates, is that it allows people with money gain a significant advantage in power over people without money, regardless of how much both play the game.
Needless to say, this is P2W and I can't really see the point in arguing against it. It is like saying 2+2=5.
People who can stay home and play and spend thousands of $ are a little minority.
I bet that the people who keep screaming p2w, are just fat guys who live in their mama's basement.
I know it's hard for you to accept that EVEN in this virtual reality you won't be special anymore.
But here is the good news: you will be still special in tamriel, because there is nothing that others can buy that will make them stronger than you.
Lol just lol.Hortator Mopa wrote: »I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.
Some people can not win by ordinary means and become carried away by his friends to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to exploit bugs in the game rather than inform them and not use them just to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek professionals who climb them level their characters, in exchange for real money to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to have the best technological benefits to gain advantage over a large number of users who can not afford such expenditure and be better than them.
Some people can not win by normal means and invest an amount of unhealthy time, and not recommended by health organizations and even the company itself, on the computer to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means (yes, pay for benefits in a private service is right and who pay do something completely logical and normal) and oppose the use of anything that might allow others to achieve goals that they know they will not be able to achieve.
AND EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID IS EXTERNAL TO THE GAME
not a internal item you can pay for and put in by the game designers.
LOLOL thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
But everything has the same effect.
It is ridiculous what your stance.
It bother you that the company (which has the right to do what they want) can incorporate things that already exist externally.
It makes no sense.
It's more of the same, only comes from one who really has the right to do so, the company that owns the product being used.
You're giving me the reason.
Is complaining about just wanting to complain.
Your reasoning is that anyone can alter the equity and equal externally using money or other means to drive you to be the best, but if it does so through the service itself is wrong?
It's fun.
ok lets do it your way. In the real world I can come into your house and steal everything you own.
So it should be ok for them to ad that to the game right?
Going by YOUR logic I should be able to access your bank and take everything I want awesome you are smart.
I do not understand your logic.
The virtual world of Tamriel is neither the house nor the bank of any user.
It belongs to the company, all the contents and rights belong to them.
All that is offered as a service, is theirs.
When accessing a benefit within the game you can not get anything to anyone because no user owns nothing.
As a user (depending on the usage agreement) wanted the privilege of using the services, at no time do you own anything.
Nothing is yours, got no rights to any content.
So your example is wrong.
My house is my private property, not a service and as such have the right to withdraw kindly if you try to enter.
What we have in the bank is my property, I can only use and if someone tries to take something without authorization will kindly stopped.
Not to split hairs here, but nothing is really yours in reality either. Homes have been seized for various reasons(not just foreclosure), and as we saw in The Great Depression, what you have in the bank means next to nothing in extremes (and with regard to the government). It's an illusion entirely that what is 'yours' is actually yours.
That said, online gaming is a service and there are expectations by both the consumer and the business. When those are not met, or are altered (in some cases, illegally), then we have a problem.
But as long as the illusion created remain and stay declared in tangible documentation with legal weight, are my property.
Unlike game content where no illusion openly declares that something may belong to you.
ZOS has the power to create illusions in this virtual world, if ZOS says something can buy, then you can buy and rightly so.
0 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
✭You guys are still at it, nice. Here I thought this was going to be a boring maintenance.
I look at the good that can come from exp pots and the bad and in my opinion, the good greatly out weighs the bad. I don't think that this game was designed to cater solely to the top 5% of players, therefor the small amount of negative impact that exp pots will have on them is negligible in my opinion, compared to the benefits for everyone else.
The Good:
- Players with less time to play can make up for it by buying exp pots and maximizing the benefits while they play.
- Players who don't enjoy grinding because it keeps them away from pvp, but still want to remain competitive, can use them to minimize the time they feel obligated to grind.
- Players can compensate for taking their time with content, pvping, and not wanting to grind, by taking exp potions while they quest, pvp or or whatever they enjoy doing in game.
- Players can level alternate characters faster or catch up to their friends in-order to play the same content. (doesn't really apply to cp)
- Zenimax makes more money, employees are happier, they are more motivated to work on new content and game improvements and can higher more employees for future projects.
The Bad:
- Some rare individuals will not eat, sleep or use the bathroom, whilst chugging exp potions 24/7 so that they can have an advantage over the other players who don't eat, sleep or go to the bathroom but don't chug exp potions.
- 2 people who put the same amount of in-game effort into their characters, one using exp pots and one not, will not reap the same benefits.
- Players without extra money to pay for exp potions may feel at a disadvantage.
The Rest:
- I think it's safe to assume, that unless these potions cost 50-100 crowns, most people will not be using them that often.
- There are so many factors that go into who wins, that the stat increases that come with an extra few hundred CP are not going to make or break a player, in my opinion.
And that is just off the top of my head, I'm sure other players could add to each category.
Are exp boosters a form of pay to win? That's a matter of opinion.
Are exp potions a form of pay for a slight advantage over others? Absolutely.
Does that advantage = win? Only in the most rare and extreme cases.
Will exp potions make more players happy than mad? We have yet to see, but I believe so.
Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade1 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
What about people who have both time and money? This in no way evens the playing field just because you want it to be true.This is reason why do boosts are okay. I mean zos or any mmo have to be able to carter the casual gamers to hard core gamers with lots of time to play if they so choose. There is nothing wrong with the casual gamer who perhaps because of work or other rl issues can't play as much as others. Not to mention the money that is gained by company for players paying for a xp booster help keep game content coming and supporting the game.
If a user can use their free time to highlight, then others also have the right to use money to do so.
Some will say, I have no money to invest.
But then what about those who do not have time to invest?
Generally to users do not have time, other users often say they engaged in something else or just not play.
Well, this premise also be applied to those who do not invest money, engage yourself in something else or do not play.
You want to touch the sky with your hands?
You want to play in the first league?
Perfect, knowing that this game is not financed with air, to the great experience, ability and skill you have as player join the economic investment, and ready to be the best.
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eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Nice try. Except the game does scale in accordance to hardware settings. And every game has a minimum requirements to play. Not every game however will ask for your money in order to advance your character faster. When you can get more XP for the same amount of time for doing the same thing you are also spending less on consumable things like:Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.- Repair costs.
- Potions used.
- Food and drink consumed.
To name a few.:trollin:0 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
✭eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »What about people who have both time and money? This in no way evens the playing field just because you want it to be true.
For an even playing field, there are First Person Shooters or better yet, Monopoly.Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade0 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I'm curious what people's take on Subs vs non-subs is when it comes to the P2W argument.
I would stay subbed whether they offered this or not. This game was supposed to be sub based and I started playing with that expectation. They can give any rewards they want to paying members as far as I'm concerned, it's the micro transactions I take exception to.:trollin:0 -
Craven_Killmore✭✭✭another one of these threads, another who cares if people pay money in a video game from me.2
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camarillagreb17_ESOSoul ShrivenEXP boosts are not P2W for the simple reason that no matter how much money you spend on them we will all get where you are eventually.
They do not offer an exclusive benefit and frankly if you are worried about 1v1 balance in Cyrodiil your are probably playing the wrong game.0 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭camarillagreb17_ESO wrote: »EXP boosts are not P2W for the simple reason that no matter how much money you spend on them we will all get where you are eventually.
They do not offer an exclusive benefit and frankly if you are worried about 1v1 balance in Cyrodiil your are probably playing the wrong game.
Lolz.0 -
desciviib14_ESO✭✭✭Every game with a free element has players who complain about not being able to do as well as players who financially support the game. The more you financially support the more you should get back from it, its a simple property of economics unless the discussion were risk investment; which it is NOT. Im not sure from what ground a person stands on to say that those who financially support a product or company should not receive advantages over those who do not. If I invest 200k in start-up and another backer invests 500k, are they not entitled to a bigger piece? I support but less than they do so I receive less in return and they receive more; it's pretty simple. Adding fairness to the equation is .....silly, it's absolutely irrelevant. Not to be a *** but the truth is that there would be no free game if it weren't for the financial supporters. If a person is a financial supporter but still disagrees then they do have a right to an opinion but those who do not financially support really should not have any bearing on the discussion.
I hope they do add many things to the store, whether those things are "P2W" I am absolutely indifferent to though I would probably use xp potion if there's not something else more interesting to spend my crowns on. Kinda depends on whats available. Im not interested in this imaginary race that some seem to put themselves in. For those who do compete; buy a potion if you wanna keep up with another who's using a potion....problem solved. It's not my problem or anyone else's what your financial situation is whether it be unable or unwilling to spend money.
Lastly, they haven't even given any indication of whether this is gonna actually be a thing or if it was something they just toyed with.
There is nothing here of interest to any nations; as a matter of fact, there is nothing here but people.0 -
camarillagreb17_ESOSoul ShrivenHortator Mopa wrote: »camarillagreb17_ESO wrote: »EXP boosts are not P2W for the simple reason that no matter how much money you spend on them we will all get where you are eventually.
They do not offer an exclusive benefit and frankly if you are worried about 1v1 balance in Cyrodiil your are probably playing the wrong game.
Lolz.
I expected some intelligent argument against my points but by choosing to answer with a simple "Lolz" shall I assume that you have none?Edited by camarillagreb17_ESO on 23 March 2015 15:480 -
Ley✭✭✭✭✭
✭camarillagreb17_ESO wrote: »EXP boosts are not P2W for the simple reason that no matter how much money you spend on them we will all get where you are eventually.
They do not offer an exclusive benefit and frankly if you are worried about 1v1 balance in Cyrodiil your are probably playing the wrong game.
Just a heads up, when I tried that same argument I was told my opinion didn't matter because clearly I didn't know what I was talking about, but I do completely agree with you.
Edit: I feel like I predicted the future, with that lolz.Edited by Ley on 23 March 2015 15:48Leylith - MagSorc | Leyloth - StamPlar | Leynerd - MagPlar | Leylit - StamBlade | Ley Eviticus - StamDK | Leydor - MagDen | Leylum - StamSorc | Leylux - MagBlade1 -
If you are all so worried about someone having a leg up on you because they used a potion to get more CP points than you did then take the CP point benefits out of Cyrodil all together. If ZOS has the tech and no how to bolster lowbie when they zone in, then this should be an easy switch to flip on and off. Then no one has to worry about facing off against the Credit Card Warrior that has no life and plays all day. There is no pvp outside of cyrodil, so the only thing that could happen is you run across this person in a random dungeon and they help you out...and you probably wouldnt even notice the difference anyway. If you are paying that much attention to what someone else is doing instead of playing your own game then your here for the wrong reasons.1
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Donum-Dei✭✭✭You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
You know what, I can barely care of those who like to pay to win. Many people are way ahead of many people that play this game, I never see the reason to even bother to really be expecting some change in any case of gameplay that can cause me know that fact. <----(that is my point of view because I play in my time an as I want to play) I never feel the reason to be sad because other are having better advantage.
What I don't like about pay to win is when it became ridicules, really ridicules like paying for wedding dresses that does not give nothing and paying for customs that I can find in game and can't be enchanted and are the same. When they sell stupid objects that really are useless. They do not give the opportunity for those who really want real objects that can be more than just vanity stupidity (that is just to much) I know the majority of the gamers like that stuff, but what happen with the half of the gamers that really want good stuff?
And to talk about what you refereed about...
"But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it"
I get that, they should be allowing those who buy those stuff for giggles, have some kind of regulation or catch to their own use for advantage over others that don't use that. But then again then they will be against the freedom from those who pay for it, and they might get really mad because the items regulate the purpose of what the item offers so they can't be so over the top or like you guys say OP
The real problem is yet again the unnecessary stuff that are in the CS that only can be bought via that implementation. Stuff that they could have been in game, and make them rarely items that can be found in bosses or randomly, then that could be the perfect equality for all gamers, those who play a lot and those who don't play much.Edited by Donum-Dei on 23 March 2015 15:530 -
eventide03b14a_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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You're partially correct. Though ZOS has done a remarkable job on reducing their ability to actually be effective in the game. The problem is though, that these gold farmers are not sanctioned by ZOS and are in fact in violation of the EULA. What's more is that no amount of gold is going to give you an XP boost in the game.lichmeister wrote: »every mmo is P2W in some regard, thanks to the friendly neighbourhood goldfarmers. it really cant be helped even in the absence of an in-house cash store since its almost impossible to completely eradicate goldfarming (without a cash store )
ESO has come a long way in their battle against GFs but im sure they are still out there: happily selling certain players an in-game advantage for hard cash.
everything i have seen in the store so far is purely cosmetic or inferior to player-made/-earned equivalents.
the concept on an experience potion in most games is far from P2W since once you hit the level cap they are useless. If ESO experience potions affect champion point earnings then that is troublingly close to P2W since a 50% boost is significant over the supposed 9+ year mountain that is the current CPS.
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DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭camarillagreb17_ESO wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »camarillagreb17_ESO wrote: »EXP boosts are not P2W for the simple reason that no matter how much money you spend on them we will all get where you are eventually.
They do not offer an exclusive benefit and frankly if you are worried about 1v1 balance in Cyrodiil your are probably playing the wrong game.
Lolz.
I expected some intelligent argument against my points but by choosing to answer with a simple "Lolz" shall I assume that you have none?
Perhaps he explained it with a "Lolz.", because it has been proven over & over again how this is not the case. When you arrive at point X, Player 2 who was using potions will already be at Point Z, significantly stronger than you.
And it goes on and on in this infinite power creep.
There will be no point where you are equal, even if you play equal amounts of time. Why? Because $$$.
What many people here are trying to do is claim it isn't P2W, this has been proven scientifically wrong, so it's like arguing 2+2=5.
At this point, I believe people are just seeking justification for them gaining significant advantages over others with their $$$ by falsely claiming it's not P2W. That, or it's a case of cognitive dissonance.1 -
linoge63✭✭✭jasonquigley646_ESO wrote: »If you are all so worried about someone having a leg up on you because they used a potion to get more CP points than you did then take the CP point benefits out of Cyrodil all together. If ZOS has the tech and no how to bolster lowbie when they zone in, then this should be an easy switch to flip on and off. Then no one has to worry about facing off against the Credit Card Warrior that has no life and plays all day. There is no pvp outside of cyrodil, so the only thing that could happen is you run across this person in a random dungeon and they help you out...and you probably wouldnt even notice the difference anyway. If you are paying that much attention to what someone else is doing instead of playing your own game then your here for the wrong reasons.
Agreed, well said.
P2W only really has neg impacts to PVP...In PVE, if my time is spent away from the game making out of game money while someone else is making in game money...well? Why shouldnt i support the game YOU are enjoying more hours than i am by spending out of game money to play with you..and help you in delves etc? If you are centered in self rather than on others and therefore off balance and lacking in core self power, then what I do has zero effect on you except...positive.
To reiterate,
1) my out of game money supports the game you can spend endless hours enjoying and that support can ensure its continuence. MMO game investors will decap the game if there is no return faster than i can swallow a power potion.
2) By enhancing my ability to empower myself in PVE i can more readiy be of help with bosses and raids etc with YOU.
PVP itself is the source of most inter player dynamic issues...give them thier own server and have them run around with equal equip etc so no one can whine and boohoo and the winner can truly gain self esteem via the win...and really, isnt that what drives PVP'er to the game? (innocent blinks)
Edited by linoge63 on 23 March 2015 16:010 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭jasonquigley646_ESO wrote: »If you are all so worried about someone having a leg up on you because they used a potion to get more CP points than you did then take the CP point benefits out of Cyrodil all together. If ZOS has the tech and no how to bolster lowbie when they zone in, then this should be an easy switch to flip on and off. Then no one has to worry about facing off against the Credit Card Warrior that has no life and plays all day. There is no pvp outside of cyrodil, so the only thing that could happen is you run across this person in a random dungeon and they help you out...and you probably wouldnt even notice the difference anyway. If you are paying that much attention to what someone else is doing instead of playing your own game then your here for the wrong reasons.
Agreed, well said.
P2W only really has neg impacts to PVP...In PVE, if my time is spent away from the game making out of game money while someone else is making in game money...well? Why shouldnt i support the game YOU are enjoying more hours than i am by spending out of game money to play with you..and help you in delves etc? If you are centered in self rather than on others and therefore off balance and lacking in core self power, then what I do has zero effect on you except...positive.
To reiterate,
1) my out of game money supports the game you can spend endless hours enjoying and that support can ensure its continuence. MMO game investors will decap the game if there is no return faster than i can swallow a power potion.
2) By enhancing my ability to empower myself in PVE i can more readiy be of help with bosses and raids etc with YOU.
PVP itself is the source of most inter player dynamic issues...give them thier own server and have them run around with equal equip etc so no one can whine and boohoo and the winner can truly gain self esteem via the win...and really, isnt that what drives PVP'er to the game? (innocent blinks)
There is the whole aspect of competitive PvE as well (world firsts, leaderboards, who has the best DPS, "difficult" content and anything they add in the future). They might not be a thing for you, but for many people they are.
Wanting P2W gone only from the content where it concerns you is selfish to say the least.Edited by DDuke on 23 March 2015 16:060 -
camarillagreb17_ESOSoul Shrivencamarillagreb17_ESO wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »camarillagreb17_ESO wrote: »EXP boosts are not P2W for the simple reason that no matter how much money you spend on them we will all get where you are eventually.
They do not offer an exclusive benefit and frankly if you are worried about 1v1 balance in Cyrodiil your are probably playing the wrong game.
Lolz.
I expected some intelligent argument against my points but by choosing to answer with a simple "Lolz" shall I assume that you have none?
Perhaps he explained it with a "Lolz.", because it has been proven over & over again how this is not the case. When you arrive at point X, Player 2 who was using potions will already be at Point Z, significantly stronger than you.
And it goes on and on in this infinite power creep.
There will be no point where you are equal, even if you play equal amounts of time. Why? Because $$$.
What many people here are trying to do is claim it isn't P2W, this has been proven scientifically wrong, so it's like arguing 2+2=5.
At this point, I believe people are just seeking justification for them gaining significant advantages over others with their $$$ by falsely claiming it's not P2W. That, or it's a case of cognitive dissonance.
Oh no you are totally wrong. I'm not the one who's gonna buy EXP boosts. I prefer to spend my crowns on mounts and outfits.
You may have been right if there wasn't a cap on Champion Points but there is, even if the gain after the first few points is so minimal.
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Grao✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is reason why do boosts are okay. I mean zos or any mmo have to be able to carter the casual gamers to hard core gamers with lots of time to play if they so choose. There is nothing wrong with the casual gamer who perhaps because of work or other rl issues can't play as much as others. Not to mention the money that is gained by company for players paying for a xp booster help keep game content coming and supporting the game.
The problem isn't the casual player. How can't any of you see that?
The problem is the hardcore gamer that will get those potions, drink it on CD and get so much stronger then anyone else in the game it will basically impossible to compete, not only on the PvE leaderboards, but specially in PvP. You guys probably didn't go to the PTS and tried out characters with maxed out CPs, so let me tell you, they can solo vet dungeon bosses and sometimes raid bosses if they are DKs or Templars. Solo 12 man content.
Now, consider two guys, both starting with 0 CPs, one drinks the potions and one doesn't. When player A, the potion dude reaches 3600 CPs, player B will have 2700 points, if you think those 900 Points make so little difference you have no clue how MMOs work. Don't be fooled by Zenimax's statements saying the CPs have diminished return, even with diminished return, those 900 points are a world of difference.
On top of this problem, here is something else for you to consider. They are not just offering this exp potion; to force players to buy tons of those, they are lowering exp gain from any kind of grind in the game, which is ridiculous considering this is a MMO. Quests are very limited in this game. there are actually very few quests. The repeatable quests are beyond boring and don't give nearly enough exp... Why? Exp pots... It is all to force us into buying them.1
This discussion has been closed.