The dark secrets of P2W...
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Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Spottswoode wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
People being able to buy better equipment irl is irrelevant to this equation. ZOS deliberately selling advantages is the crux of the discussion.
The advantages ZOS sold are for everyone.
Do not want to pay?
Ok, have no benefits.
What is the concept?
They want an entire company dedicated to the development and maintenance of a product and everything is free?
This is private, not public.
Create, maintain and develop it has a cost and must generate profits.
They are given the opportunity to participate with no monthly cost and above have the luxury of putting conditions?
In the world of private luxury services, the more it pays better benefits are obtained.
If ZOS decide that your product has to have optional payments that benefit those who acquire it is more than ok.
They have a business which is aimed at generating profits and anything that can incorporate to the game is an imbalance because the balance does not exist.
They are not breaking any fragile balance of fair competition as it does not exist.
In an MMORPG the P2W exists in many respects outside the company and that this (which is a business) decides to incorporate others, it's more of the same.
You can not break a balance that never existed.
You want to be the best of a payment service, paid.
I would imagine all those who are against payment in their jobs, working for free.
O addressing their business and delivering their merchandise for free and customers also dare to question them and criticize them.
Everyone wants everything for free, fast and efficient and also want to decide how to do and what is right and what is wrong.
I wonder if they are consistent with that mindset and let others be well with you.
I do not think so.
If you want people to read what you write then dont use the formatting you are using, most people will give up reading it just like I did.Eliteseraph wrote: »Boosts which save time are NOT P2W, despite what some might have you believe. The only time that P2W actually applies is when someone can spend money to get power, items, or skills that aren't otherwise available through normal play, and are objectively better than what's available without paying.
Nothing I've seen in the crown store falls into the category of P2W. Gaining exp more quickly doesn't count. Getting a horse early doesn't count.
I suppose an argument could be made for any class/any race, or imperial being P2W, but it would be a very weak one.
Really, anyone that complains about the current options in the crown store are just being petty.
As long as the crown store only sells time-saving or cosmetic items we're fine. As long as zenimax doesn't skew the exp rate to artificially encourage buying boosts we're fine.
The DLC content and how that's handled remains to be seen, however. But at the moment ESO is most definitely not P2W.
So someone does not gain power by having more cp then someone else due to the money they pay?
The problem with my writing is that I do not speak English, I speak Spanish.
I make a great effort to participate and make myself understood.
Regarding your question, if the purchase of CP is available for money, then, is available to all users who want to be competitive in a service that is private and is based on the billing and revenue generation.
Did not pay for?
Okay, you can also play and have fun with others.
Play cooperatively do not fun, because your only satisfaction is to be the best?
Okay, pay.
You want the whole package, free.
A company with hundreds of employees dedicated to deliver a product that requires no monthly maintenance and upgrade cost for you to be the best and no one can take advantage of you.
You speak more then one language and English is not your first language, thats awesome! Sorry if I came off like a jerk.
Saying what you said though proves it to be p2w. You just said someone could pay to be competitive.
I dont want the package free. I wanted this game to stay sub. They chose to go b2p and they chose to put in a cash shop saying it wont be p2w. It is going to go p2w and even you think that as you just said, what you just said...
Its not up to me to pay money if its p2w because I didnt want it b2p. It is up to them to keep their word and not add p2w items to the shop.
Lets be honest though, everyone with half a brain knew it would be p2w sooner or later or else they would make no money to stay running.
Dead game is dead.Edited by Hortator Mopa on 23 March 2015 06:112 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Spottswoode wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
People being able to buy better equipment irl is irrelevant to this equation. ZOS deliberately selling advantages is the crux of the discussion.
The advantages ZOS sold are for everyone.
Do not want to pay?
Ok, have no benefits.
What is the concept?
They want an entire company dedicated to the development and maintenance of a product and everything is free?
This is private, not public.
Create, maintain and develop it has a cost and must generate profits.
They are given the opportunity to participate with no monthly cost and above have the luxury of putting conditions?
In the world of private luxury services, the more it pays better benefits are obtained.
If ZOS decide that your product has to have optional payments that benefit those who acquire it is more than ok.
They have a business which is aimed at generating profits and anything that can incorporate to the game is an imbalance because the balance does not exist.
They are not breaking any fragile balance of fair competition as it does not exist.
In an MMORPG the P2W exists in many respects outside the company and that this (which is a business) decides to incorporate others, it's more of the same.
You can not break a balance that never existed.
You want to be the best of a payment service, paid.
I would imagine all those who are against payment in their jobs, working for free.
O addressing their business and delivering their merchandise for free and customers also dare to question them and criticize them.
Everyone wants everything for free, fast and efficient and also want to decide how to do and what is right and what is wrong.
I wonder if they are consistent with that mindset and let others be well with you.
I do not think so.
If you want people to read what you write then dont use the formatting you are using, most people will give up reading it just like I did.Eliteseraph wrote: »Boosts which save time are NOT P2W, despite what some might have you believe. The only time that P2W actually applies is when someone can spend money to get power, items, or skills that aren't otherwise available through normal play, and are objectively better than what's available without paying.
Nothing I've seen in the crown store falls into the category of P2W. Gaining exp more quickly doesn't count. Getting a horse early doesn't count.
I suppose an argument could be made for any class/any race, or imperial being P2W, but it would be a very weak one.
Really, anyone that complains about the current options in the crown store are just being petty.
As long as the crown store only sells time-saving or cosmetic items we're fine. As long as zenimax doesn't skew the exp rate to artificially encourage buying boosts we're fine.
The DLC content and how that's handled remains to be seen, however. But at the moment ESO is most definitely not P2W.
So someone does not gain power by having more cp then someone else due to the money they pay?
The problem with my writing is that I do not speak English, I speak Spanish.
I make a great effort to participate and make myself understood.
Regarding your question, if the purchase of CP is available for money, then, is available to all users who want to be competitive in a service that is private and is based on the billing and revenue generation.
Did not pay for?
Okay, you can also play and have fun with others.
Play cooperatively do not fun, because your only satisfaction is to be the best?
Okay, pay.
You want the whole package, free.
A company with hundreds of employees dedicated to deliver a product that requires no monthly maintenance and upgrade cost for you to be the best and no one can take advantage of you.
You speak more then one language and English is not your first language, thats awesome! Sorry if I came off like a jerk.
Saying what you said though proves it to be p2w. You just said someone could pay to be competitive.
I dont want the package free. I wanted this game to stay sub. They chose to go b2p and they chose to put in a cash shop saying it wont be p2w. It is going to go p2w and even you think that as you just said, what you just said...
Its not up to me to pay money if its p2w because I didnt want it b2p. It is up to them to keep their word and not add p2w items to the shop.
Lets be honest though, everyone with half a brain knew it would be p2w sooner or later or else they would make no money to stay running.
Dead game is dead.
The problem you mention:
Pay to be competitive.
It is more complex than you think, for example, to be competitive must be able to play, to play you have to pay for the initial copy of the game.
The user who wants to play but can not afford the copy of the game, can not compete, all those who bought the game, paid to compete, also you can buy guides and extra physical material and have a small advantage, you are paying to win.
All this is provided by ZOS, and is a pay to be competitive because without participating can not compete.
Externally, there are other pay to win that always existed and that make it impossible to get a fair game environment, why bother with P2W just want to incorporate the company when there are many others that are uncontrollable?
Achieving a state of equity? You can not achieve full equality, controlling only one half.
And as it is impossible to control all factors, the result is that you'll never have equity, so why so much trouble?
Again, MMORPG = fun
Professional tournament = Competitiveness and equity0 -
Spottswoode✭✭✭✭✭
Irrational by your own logic.
The advantages ZOS sold are for everyone.
Do not want to pay?
Ok, have no benefits.
All entirely irrelevant to the point, which is....
What is the concept?
They want an entire company dedicated to the development and maintenance of a product and everything is free?
This is private, not public.
Create, maintain and develop it has a cost and must generate profits.
Selling advantage to the highest payer is unethical in an MMORPG. Period. There is no room for debate. The latent balance of the gaming world or world at large is not a relevant topic to the P2W equation.They are given the opportunity to participate with no monthly cost and above have the luxury of putting conditions?
In the world of private luxury services, the more it pays better benefits are obtained.
If ZOS decide that your product has to have optional payments that benefit those who acquire it is more than ok.
They have a business which is aimed at generating profits and anything that can incorporate to the game is an imbalance because the balance does not exist.
They are not breaking any fragile balance of fair competition as it does not exist.
In an MMORPG the P2W exists in many respects outside the company and that this (which is a business) decides to incorporate others, it's more of the same.
You can not break a balance that never existed.
You want to be the best of a payment service, paid.
I would imagine all those who are against payment in their jobs, working for free.
O addressing their business and delivering their merchandise for free and customers also dare to question them and criticize them.
Everyone wants everything for free, fast and efficient and also want to decide how to do and what is right and what is wrong.
I wonder if they are consistent with that mindset and let others be well with you.
I do not think so.
All irrelevant. At this point you're just trolling.Proud Player of The Elder Bank Screen Online.
My khajiit loves his moon sugar.
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Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Oh my.. conspiracy theories. I read FEMA and illuminati. Now I need to play Deus Ex again (the original)٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."1 -
luciole78Soul ShrivenI think a lot of people in that thread did not really experience a p2w game really! A bit of xp boost here and there won`t necessary turn the game as p2w ,well not in the sens I did experience on other game. But if they want to take that road , this game will effectively dying for me.
On p2w game all pvp content become unplayable for people that cannot afford to spend hundredsss... of dollars a month in them game **and I am not even close to exaggerates here! PVP become unplayable because even if you afford time and even some money in the game ,you become food for those hungry players and you are nothing else than that. Of course even without a p2w system , you will have player killing you like nothing for multiple reason , but you surely have more chance to improve and be efficient at some point and will be able to compete with majority of players.
On p2w game, even pve content at some point become unplayable , they make some content that only people who spend tones of money in game to be able to complete them.
On p2w game , crafting is useless ! Then what`s the point of even create a crafting system , when everybody can found everything better on the dollars store?
A subscription is a way better system in general , yes you pay to play the game and I am fine with that , but you have access to the whole content and this is how it should always be. B2P model is also good , I do not mind buying extra content separately or paying the ESO plus subscription.I do not mind either the crown store if everything on it is mostly cosmetic item with no special value. I have really no issue spending some money in a game that I enjoy , but I still draw a line.
The xp boost could also be fine in the crown store , as long as somehow we should be able to craft them in the game play also.
Crafting should always be the way to found better item , and should be improve to always make it worth it. An initial purpose of game is to play it , and enjoy it , but mostly feeling that what you do is worth it also at some point. A mmo game is playing with other players and helping each others , and the major part of those game beside combat is the economy of the game itself.
Then when you start introducing more and more p2w element you just destroy the whole economy of the game on top of destroying the purpose of even playing the game in the first place. I mean all the element are important on a game and maybe some people do not see it on the same perspective , because what they like are maybe just fighting...I do not know.
Buying for new content its all fine , and it`s not p2w and not even close. First the new paid dlc will be same fare for everyone , and unless Zenimax start introducing 1000$ of new content every month **who seriously won`t happen** well this become more of a choice. People who was ready to pay the subs in the first place won`t have any issue or to pay the ESO plus or the to pay the new content. And for the people who wasnt interested of paying subs , they can still enjoy the basic of the game and if they want more buying all content or only the one they are interested on , but this is an options they will have. For a casual players not having all the new content at released might not bother them much , as they might not even have time to played them. And paid dlc can always drop price after released.
Sorry I am doing a romance here, but to resume , if your vision of players who spend money on game have more advantage compare to people who doesnt *of course the person who will be interested of investing money will always have an advantage and this is just seriously logical and should always be like that* But those advantages should resume of having more content,cosmetics item and some convenient item that does not completely interfere with the whole purpose of the game and that's all.
Paying for new content that will be playable , compare to having it for free unplayable unless you spend tone of money for power well I prefer the first options. Become way more healthy for my pocket and respect more the purpose of playing a game itself. It's also more respectful if a company relayed on making money by selling new content/cosmetic they develop and work hard to make , compare to selling you power .. that will seriously be an easy road to take. And this is why the future of ESO is scary a bit.
Will see!
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Folkb✭✭✭✭✭I'm curious what people's take on Subs vs non-subs is when it comes to the P2W argument.1
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Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in4 -
You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
and why? those few that are able to do so will reach CAP sooner.... but we will all be there too.
If someone has the ability to invest resources like time and money into this, then more power too them.
The only people who are going to complain about cash shop items are people who really WOULD BUY IT-- BUT CANT AFFORD IT.
All you people complaining about cash shop items are people who don't have the money to do so, yet the reality is this--
prior to last week all you complainers were paying for a subscription.
Ok-- so now that TU is here, have you continued your subscription?
If so, then you too have access to the supremely overpowered items (OF WHICH I SEE TWO-- ya TWO ITEMS! ATM)
as well.
If you chose to stop your subscription, well you now have that life breaking difference maker of surplus cash available to you.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.1 -
tallenn✭✭✭While I agree with the OP that time is just as much of an advantage as money, this whole discussion has no real bearing on ESO. There is nothing remotely akin to P2W in the crown store at this time.
Even if something is introduced that some people consider P2W, then the market will decide whether it should be allowed. If enough people are against it, and quit playing, ZOS' bottom line will suffer. If on the other hand enough people either don't consider it to be P2W or are ok with P2W, they will do just fine. However, I'm very skeptical they'll introduce anything like that.
The market will determine what's ok and and what's not, and that's as it should be.0 -
Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Spottswoode wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hortator Mopa wrote: »One person plays 15 hours a day vs one person who plays 2 hours a day:
ZOS - "Well we want to even the game and make one player the same as the other by adding exp potions"
Reason that logic will fail.
One person who plays 15 hours a day with exp potions vs one person who plays 2 hours a day with exp potions.
Its the same but now they have exp potions and the balance does not happen. The only people who win are the people getting paid to add items.
GG us.
One person who play 15 hours a day with 20 latency and 200 FPS vs one person who play 15 hours a day with 300 latency and 40 FPS.
ZOS does not give anything to anyone, but by an external economic difference there is only one winner ...
The only people who win are the people getting the best performance conection and Pc, and this in your concept is not P2W...
It is stupid to think that external situations is anything close to in game situations. Someone with no arms is going to be worse then someone with 17 arms HOWEVER p2w elements only relate to in game situations.
In this case IN GAME ONLY relates to what a p2w equates to.
Thus anything in game through real currency offering a element of power over someone else relates to a CLEAR p2w.
Stop trying to do the "OH BUT BUT BUT SOMEONE WITH NO ARMS IS WORSE" argument when it relates in no way to the in game elements which of course is the true p2w discussion.
A last generation computer and internet connection are external things that directly affect the speed of information management video game which decides who hits and who does not.
The speed of data transfer and graphics processing affects everything related to the ingame.
Not only affects ingame things, affects the whole game completely.
Money invested in the store is something external, which can affect something within the game.
I see no difference, even I see much more advantageous to having better equipment.
In your opinion, who has more money to spend on the computer and the connection, is clearly paying to win and it's something you'll never be able to handle.
People being able to buy better equipment irl is irrelevant to this equation. ZOS deliberately selling advantages is the crux of the discussion.
The advantages ZOS sold are for everyone.
Do not want to pay?
Ok, have no benefits.
What is the concept?
They want an entire company dedicated to the development and maintenance of a product and everything is free?
This is private, not public.
Create, maintain and develop it has a cost and must generate profits.
They are given the opportunity to participate with no monthly cost and above have the luxury of putting conditions?
In the world of private luxury services, the more it pays better benefits are obtained.
If ZOS decide that your product has to have optional payments that benefit those who acquire it is more than ok.
They have a business which is aimed at generating profits and anything that can incorporate to the game is an imbalance because the balance does not exist.
They are not breaking any fragile balance of fair competition as it does not exist.
In an MMORPG the P2W exists in many respects outside the company and that this (which is a business) decides to incorporate others, it's more of the same.
You can not break a balance that never existed.
You want to be the best of a payment service, paid.
I would imagine all those who are against payment in their jobs, working for free.
O addressing their business and delivering their merchandise for free and customers also dare to question them and criticize them.
Everyone wants everything for free, fast and efficient and also want to decide how to do and what is right and what is wrong.
I wonder if they are consistent with that mindset and let others be well with you.
I do not think so.
If you want people to read what you write then dont use the formatting you are using, most people will give up reading it just like I did.Eliteseraph wrote: »Boosts which save time are NOT P2W, despite what some might have you believe. The only time that P2W actually applies is when someone can spend money to get power, items, or skills that aren't otherwise available through normal play, and are objectively better than what's available without paying.
Nothing I've seen in the crown store falls into the category of P2W. Gaining exp more quickly doesn't count. Getting a horse early doesn't count.
I suppose an argument could be made for any class/any race, or imperial being P2W, but it would be a very weak one.
Really, anyone that complains about the current options in the crown store are just being petty.
As long as the crown store only sells time-saving or cosmetic items we're fine. As long as zenimax doesn't skew the exp rate to artificially encourage buying boosts we're fine.
The DLC content and how that's handled remains to be seen, however. But at the moment ESO is most definitely not P2W.
So someone does not gain power by having more cp then someone else due to the money they pay?
The problem with my writing is that I do not speak English, I speak Spanish.
I make a great effort to participate and make myself understood.
Regarding your question, if the purchase of CP is available for money, then, is available to all users who want to be competitive in a service that is private and is based on the billing and revenue generation.
Did not pay for?
Okay, you can also play and have fun with others.
Play cooperatively do not fun, because your only satisfaction is to be the best?
Okay, pay.
You want the whole package, free.
A company with hundreds of employees dedicated to deliver a product that requires no monthly maintenance and upgrade cost for you to be the best and no one can take advantage of you.
You speak more then one language and English is not your first language, thats awesome! Sorry if I came off like a jerk.
Saying what you said though proves it to be p2w. You just said someone could pay to be competitive.
I dont want the package free. I wanted this game to stay sub. They chose to go b2p and they chose to put in a cash shop saying it wont be p2w. It is going to go p2w and even you think that as you just said, what you just said...
Its not up to me to pay money if its p2w because I didnt want it b2p. It is up to them to keep their word and not add p2w items to the shop.
Lets be honest though, everyone with half a brain knew it would be p2w sooner or later or else they would make no money to stay running.
Dead game is dead.
so lets sum this up.
There are people complaining who like this game.
The game is a product, that has real people who work for the company that produce this product.
Those people have lives, and as such need INCOME TO SUPPORT THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.
So.... what Im failing to comprehend here is that all you people who are complaining like the idea of a FREE GAME, but don't give a damn about keeping the game viable; as the game has obvious financial needs of the people who make it?
So--- all you complainers-- if you are currently employed, why don't you go tell your employer that you do not need to be monetarily compestated for your time at work, and you will be there free gratis.
The point is this---
you like the game.
you WERE PAYING YOUR SUBSCRITION UP UNTIL A WEEK AGO
and if you chose to stop-- then enjoy what benefits that entails.
If you chose to continue-- THEN YOU TOO!!!
HAVE IN GAME CURRENCY TO BUY THESE ITEMS!
All you complainers oout there are the people who cultivate the LACK mentality.
You know why the rich are rich? because they overcome all the worldly BS and plow through the nay sayer obsticles to achieve monetary wealth.
All im seeing here are the naysayers who are the same people who are bitching and moaning about how 'other' people are lucky and have more than them.Edited by kokoandshinb14a_ESO on 23 March 2015 13:040 -
ragespell✭✭✭You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
MMORPG haven't an infinite growth. I would say it is asymptotic.
And there is the fact that people who stay home and play 16h/day haven't the income to chug potions.
So, in my view OP is right: do you have time to play? Good for you, now you can do it for free.
Do you work and have some money to spare? Good for you and for the guy who play all day for free: you'll be strong as him but you'll have to pay for everybody else.
It's a win/win scenario IMHO.Edited by ragespell on 23 March 2015 13:060 -
I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.
Im not sure what @DDuke is saying here....
as my interpretation of PAY TO WIN (P2W) as described here is cheating? Correct me if im wrong, and I apologize upfront, but the introduction of the cash shop, even IF exp pots make it in, isnt P2W.
It might be PAY to achieve faster, or PAY to achieve because I don't have the huge amount of time to invest in this because most of my time is spent earing real world currency, and as a result, when I do get to play this, that currency I earned leaves me with a few extra dollars ( like $14 dollars a month) to buy something in the cash shop.Edited by kokoandshinb14a_ESO on 23 March 2015 13:151 -
minnisville✭✭Im a forum lurker. I come in and see what other's are talking about, and sometimes walk away with some useful knowledge.
Today, I find myself replying. Why you ask? Because I am the first to jump into a forum and try and slam down a p2w store if it's a game I think has potential and shouldn't need a p2w store. (most, if not all, of those games are initially f2p to begin with)
But. OP, this is far from any p2w I have ever seen. XP pot's are far from any kind of p2w....Yes, they may let your neighbor get to the "end" quicker than you, but does that mean they can play better than you? Just because they get to the end faster, doesn't mean "they win". If reaching the end of a story line in a mmorpg is your "I win" button, you may want to rethink your reason in playing a mmorpg.
xp pot=no p2w
horse=no p2w
costume=no p2w
pet=no p2w
Most magical uber massive "death to all" sword, in store=p2w
Best ever armor that costs 100$ and no one can damage, in store=p2w
I believe that ESO has so far, and will continue to, made the best decision with going the B2P route. And, as long as they leave out weapons, armor, fighting pets, "better than in game money" horses, "better than you you get in game" anything, out of their store...They will never be a P2W!
You should really go out and try and find a heavy p2w game and try it, before trying to argue that ESO is a p2w.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
MMORPG haven't an infinite growth. I would say it is asymptotic.
And there is the fact that people who stay home and play 16h/day haven't the income to chug potions.
Quite the stereotypes you have there.
Increasingly large amounts of people are working from home/self-employed these days, and then there's the rich people and kids who use their parents' credit cards.
You couldn't be more wrong and what you write just comes off presumptuous.So, in my view OP is right: do you have time to play? Good for you, now you can do it for free.
Do you work and have some money to spare? Good for you and for the guy who play all day for free: you'll be strong as him but you'll have to pay for everybody else.
It's a win/win scenario IMHO.
It would be true, if people playing 16 hours a day weren't also able to use those potions.
The only thing this creates, is that it allows people with money gain a significant advantage in power over people without money, regardless of how much both play the game.
Needless to say, this is P2W and I can't really see the point in arguing against it. It is like saying 2+2=5.Edited by DDuke on 23 March 2015 13:371 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭minnisville wrote: »Im a forum lurker. I come in and see what other's are talking about, and sometimes walk away with some useful knowledge.
Today, I find myself replying. Why you ask? Because I am the first to jump into a forum and try and slam down a p2w store if it's a game I think has potential and shouldn't need a p2w store. (most, if not all, of those games are initially f2p to begin with)
But. OP, this is far from any p2w I have ever seen. XP pot's are far from any kind of p2w....Yes, they may let your neighbor get to the "end" quicker than you, but does that mean they can play better than you? Just because they get to the end faster, doesn't mean "they win". If reaching the end of a story line in a mmorpg is your "I win" button, you may want to rethink your reason in playing a mmorpg.
xp pot=no p2w
horse=no p2w
costume=no p2w
pet=no p2w
Most magical uber massive "death to all" sword, in store=p2w
Best ever armor that costs 100$ and no one can damage, in store=p2w
I believe that ESO has so far, and will continue to, made the best decision with going the B2P route. And, as long as they leave out weapons, armor, fighting pets, "better than in game money" horses, "better than you you get in game" anything, out of their store...They will never be a P2W!
You should really go out and try and find a heavy p2w game and try it, before trying to argue that ESO is a p2w.
How can you reach "the end", when there is no end? As stated, it takes on average 9-10 years (do you realize how long time this is?) to reach "the end" of current CPs. They can (and most likely will) add more CPs before that.
When there is no (realistic) end, it simply means paying for more power, period. After a year, this is the difference between two people: someone who spent thousands in potions, and someone who didn't:
-5.3% Stamina Costs Spells/Abilities
+4.5% Stamina Regeneration
+5.1% more Healing Reduction
+5.8% Light/Heavy Attack Damage
+9% Physical Critical Strike damage
+5.9% Armour Penetration
+1.2% Spell Resistance
-6.9% DoT damage taken
-5% Poison/Disease/Magic damage taken
-5% Flame/Frost/Shock damage taken.
When killed, heal Allies within 8m by X
50% reduced Gathering times
Better items from Treasure Chests
15% chance to return X damage to attacker when blocking a melee attack, 5 second cooldown
What if "uber massive death to all sword" with these bonuses was put into the Cash Shop January 2016, for same price those potions would have cost?
Sure, it would cost you thousands, but both the cause ($$$) and the effect (power) are same.Edited by DDuke on 23 March 2015 13:461 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Bleeped it to prevent ban, use your imagination. Hopefully it is better then your logic.
This community is bad. All I have to say about the BLEEP going on in this thread about how BLEEP people are. I dont even care if a mod gets angry that I am saying people are BLEEP.
No logic is found in this forum and to be banned from it would be a blessing tbh.
Go on play the game, someone with more cp then someone else isnt a p2w, apparently.
BLEEPing BLEEP lol...
ALSO:
Someone above said that only people who cant afford to buy the exp potions would complain.
1) are you a BLEEPing BLEEP? That means its p2w
2) my views are coming from someone who is going to keep sub and pay for the p2w items, I have more then double the cp most have due to grinding already and the potions are going to help me more then most of the BLEEPs defending them being put in. I dont think you understand hardcore players like me who already get 1CP per 9-12 minutes EVEN WITH THE GRIND NERFS will get them even faster when its with exp potions.
But hey what ever I will just crush your souls in pvp (even though I suck at pvp, thus p2w) and beat all your trial times. Have fun BLEEPs.
tldr: I have a awesome job and get paid a heap while also having heaps of time off. I will be able to drink these potions 24/7 at grind spots that already give me a cp per 9-12 minutes. Have fun vs'ing me in pvp. I suck and will still beat you. Also I wont ad any of you to my groups or trials because soon only people who are abusing exp potions and cp stacked will get into trials. Have fun with future eso, I will but I was hoping we all could. LFM 300+ CP (no invites for anyone without x item and x item and x item all active) ~ pstEdited by Hortator Mopa on 23 March 2015 14:131 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.
Some people can not win by ordinary means and become carried away by his friends to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to exploit bugs in the game rather than inform them and not use them just to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek professionals who climb them level their characters, in exchange for real money to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to have the best technological benefits to gain advantage over a large number of users who can not afford such expenditure and be better than them.
Some people can not win by normal means and invest an amount of unhealthy time, and not recommended by health organizations and even the company itself, on the computer to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means (yes, pay for benefits in a private service is right and who pay do something completely logical and normal) and oppose the use of anything that might allow others to achieve goals that they know they will not be able to achieve.0 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.
Some people can not win by ordinary means and become carried away by his friends to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to exploit bugs in the game rather than inform them and not use them just to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek professionals who climb them level their characters, in exchange for real money to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to have the best technological benefits to gain advantage over a large number of users who can not afford such expenditure and be better than them.
Some people can not win by normal means and invest an amount of unhealthy time, and not recommended by health organizations and even the company itself, on the computer to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means (yes, pay for benefits in a private service is right and who pay do something completely logical and normal) and oppose the use of anything that might allow others to achieve goals that they know they will not be able to achieve.
AND EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID IS EXTERNAL TO THE GAME
not a internal item you can pay for and put in by the game designers.
LOLOL thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
0 -
Betahkiin✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.
Some people can not win by ordinary means and become carried away by his friends to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to exploit bugs in the game rather than inform them and not use them just to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek professionals who climb them level their characters, in exchange for real money to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to have the best technological benefits to gain advantage over a large number of users who can not afford such expenditure and be better than them.
Some people can not win by normal means and invest an amount of unhealthy time, and not recommended by health organizations and even the company itself, on the computer to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means (yes, pay for benefits in a private service is right and who pay do something completely logical and normal) and oppose the use of anything that might allow others to achieve goals that they know they will not be able to achieve.
AND EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID IS EXTERNAL TO THE GAME
not a internal item you can pay for and put in by the game designers.
LOLOL thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
But everything has the same effect.
It is ridiculous what your stance.
It bother you that the company (which has the right to do what they want) can incorporate things that already exist externally.
It makes no sense.
It's more of the same, only comes from one who really has the right to do so, the company that owns the product being used.
You're giving me the reason.
Is complaining about just wanting to complain.
Your reasoning is that anyone can alter the equity and equal externally using money or other means to drive you to be the best, but if it does so through the service itself is wrong?
It's fun.0 -
Moiskormoimi✭✭✭✭Oh ffs. There is no conspiracy. At some point and time, the Crown Store will have p2w elements in it. It has to to attract whales and fast transaction types something to open their wallets to and so ESO can make profit. It's inevitable and it will happen. Get over it.
The only thing the past subs need to look at it is whether the crown store becomes so p2w that it dominates gameplay, i.e. legendary gear in the cash shop for x time, potions that elevate damage, mounts that give unfair advantages, etc. and the regular player has no hope of catching up to those that can spend indefinitely. See Archeage for a better example.0 -
ragespell✭✭✭Bottom line: I have money you have time. Let our skills talk.
And for who have both: good for them. There are always luckier men1 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭You are missing a crucial point here:
There are also people who play a lot and pay a lot.
When these elements of P2W appears, it ruins the game for the whole demographic who plays a lot, but is unwilling to throw in thousands of $$$.
Meanwhile, you give the casual people who don't play much the illusion they can catch up.
The real winners are the Credit Card Warriors, who play 16 hours a day chugging potions.
I don't care about other people catching up to me, that's ok.
But if they can surpass me & win, because on top of playing as much as I do they drink potions non-stop and gain 50% more, that's simply wrong and I can't see how someone wouldn't consider it P2W.
MMORPG haven't an infinite growth. I would say it is asymptotic.
And there is the fact that people who stay home and play 16h/day haven't the income to chug potions.
Quite the stereotypes you have there.
Increasingly large amounts of people are working from home/self-employed these days, and then there's the rich people and kids who use their parents' credit cards.
You couldn't be more wrong and what you write just comes off presumptuous.So, in my view OP is right: do you have time to play? Good for you, now you can do it for free.
Do you work and have some money to spare? Good for you and for the guy who play all day for free: you'll be strong as him but you'll have to pay for everybody else.
It's a win/win scenario IMHO.
It would be true, if people playing 16 hours a day weren't also able to use those potions.
The only thing this creates, is that it allows people with money gain a significant advantage in power over people without money, regardless of how much both play the game.
Needless to say, this is P2W and I can't really see the point in arguing against it. It is like saying 2+2=5.
[...]
Lol just lol.Hortator Mopa wrote: »I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.
Some people can not win by ordinary means and become carried away by his friends to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to exploit bugs in the game rather than inform them and not use them just to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek professionals who climb them level their characters, in exchange for real money to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means and seek to have the best technological benefits to gain advantage over a large number of users who can not afford such expenditure and be better than them.
Some people can not win by normal means and invest an amount of unhealthy time, and not recommended by health organizations and even the company itself, on the computer to go further than others.
Some people can not win by normal means (yes, pay for benefits in a private service is right and who pay do something completely logical and normal) and oppose the use of anything that might allow others to achieve goals that they know they will not be able to achieve.
AND EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID IS EXTERNAL TO THE GAME
not a internal item you can pay for and put in by the game designers.
LOLOL thinkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk.
But everything has the same effect.
It is ridiculous what your stance.
It bother you that the company (which has the right to do what they want) can incorporate things that already exist externally.
It makes no sense.
It's more of the same, only comes from one who really has the right to do so, the company that owns the product being used.
You're giving me the reason.
Is complaining about just wanting to complain.
Your reasoning is that anyone can alter the equity and equal externally using money or other means to drive you to be the best, but if it does so through the service itself is wrong?
It's fun.
ok lets do it your way. In the real world I can come into your house and steal everything you own.
So it should be ok for them to ad that to the game right?
Going by YOUR logic I should be able to access your bank and take everything I want
awesome you are smart.
[Moderator Note: Removed moderated quote]Edited by ZOS_UlyssesW on 23 March 2015 15:161 -
Kragorn✭✭✭✭✭
Clearly by any definition of P2W which covers the case where the paying out of real-world cash gains you an advantage a sub. is P2W: it amuses me that many who scream XP pots are P2W are subscribers ...I'm curious what people's take on Subs vs non-subs is when it comes to the P2W argument.0 -
ZOS_AlanGadminHi guys, it's fine to be critical or disagree, but please remember to keep your posts civil and constructive. Additionally, as covered in the forum rules, conspiracy theories tend to attract and escalate problems. They also risk attracting unwanted attention.
Edited by ZOS_AlanG on 23 March 2015 15:01Forum Rules | Promoting Constructive Discussion | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Help Site
I’ve moved to a new position and I am no longer active on this forum. For assistance, please check the resources linked above1 -
Hortator Mopa✭✭✭✭Hi guys, it's fine to be critical or disagree, but please remember to keep your posts civil and constructive. Additionally, as covered in the forum rules, conspiracy theories tend to attract and escalate problems. They also risk attracting unwanted attention.
I'm going to laugh at people. Then I am going to drink a laugh potion and do it 50% better for the next 2 hours.5 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I just already hate the massive influx of the cry babies who have come to the game. This was every other sentence is Zone Chat last night "Now that this PoS game is free I can finally play it as much as I want" (that was one person) "yes this garbage is now free, pvp here I come I will be emp!" (that was a seperate person) "Glad I bought this laughable game and never got past 30 days free time. Now that its free to play I can play all damn day!!! YES!)" (and that was another person) it kept going on and on like this, the people who will be buying these items from the cash shop are the ones who refused to pay 15 a month "because it cost to much" but will gladly drop 20-40 dollars a month on cosmetics.
I just dont know what to do anymore lol Do you see what you did to your game @ZOS_ seriously......this is what you let in
They seem to be on the forums as well, defending their right to P2W.
Some people can't win by normal means, so they refuse to play the whole game until they can cheat.
Makes me sad, really. This is why I think some regulation & rules on the MMO industry would go a long way on alleviating these issues. That is a whole another topic however.
Some people can not win by ordinary means and become carried away by his friends to go further than others.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean ganking people Xv1 or getting carried through dungeons by your guild/group? That is called teamplay, nothing too uncommon or unfair in MMOs. That is also available for you, free of charge, at any time.
Refusing it is like wanting to win a football match alone, then crying unfair when you lose 20-0.Some people can not win by normal means and seek to exploit bugs in the game rather than inform them and not use them just to go further than others.
Yes, and these people should be banned as they are cheating, as long as it truly is cheating. People also tend to use the word "exploit" for anything legit they couldn't benefit from (due to lack of knowledge or time).Some people can not win by normal means and seek professionals who climb them level their characters, in exchange for real money to go further than others.
Sure. Also considered cheating, report these people.Some people can not win by normal means and seek to have the best technological benefits to gain advantage over a large number of users who can not afford such expenditure and be better than them.
External equipment required to profess the hobby/profession of gaming. Not having it (or not having good equipment) is like trying to play tennis with a broken bracket. Sure, you can still play, but you should get a new one
Now, how have XP Boosters suddenly become necessary equipment for gaming? I must've missed that.Some people can not win by normal means and invest an amount of unhealthy time, and not recommended by health organizations and even the company itself, on the computer to go further than others.
Again, grind2win is not my ideal for a healthy game either, and this is what you people should direct your critique at. Not the gamers playing a lot, because they a) have to (ugh...), or b) enjoy it.Some people can not win by normal means (yes, pay for benefits in a private service is right and who pay do something completely logical and normal) and oppose the use of anything that might allow others to achieve goals that they know they will not be able to achieve.
I'm sorry, I did not really catch what you were trying to say there
Hablo español tambien, si quieres explicar lo que intentabas decir con la ultima frase.Edited by DDuke on 23 March 2015 15:060 -
Moiskormoimi✭✭✭✭Hortator Mopa wrote: »Hi guys, it's fine to be critical or disagree, but please remember to keep your posts civil and constructive. Additionally, as covered in the forum rules, conspiracy theories tend to attract and escalate problems. They also risk attracting unwanted attention.
I'm going to laugh at people. Then I am going to drink a laugh potion and do it 50% better for the next 2 hours.
It's posts like these that make me miss the lol button.0
This discussion has been closed.