Harder to escape as a NB in 1.6 and here the main reason

rendolpheb16_ESO · March 2015

1. Detect potion
Those potions last for 40 sec in patch 1.6.X instead of 10-12 sec in patch 1.5.X.

Detect potion are made to detect someone that is hidden when you have a good idea where he is. 10-12 sec in 1.5 was fine, because you had 1-2 attemps to reveal a cloaked ennemy. If you failed to find him he had the chance to run away and you wasted your detect potion.

But in 1.6, you can litteraly chase a NB with this potion on you and he will use all his magicka to dark cloak away from your 20m detection aura. 40 sec is way too long ...

ZoS should bring it down to 10-12 sec IMO.

2. Radiant Destruction

This new so much loved skill from Templar are one of the easiest way to keep revealed any NB. I love to jump and burst someone in a zerg and have a possibility to run away even if the chance are small to survive. But in 1.6, any templar just need to keep the Beam on you and you can never break it. It should work like Soul Strike. You should be able to break the Radiant Destruction by using Dark Cloak.

Once a templar flag you with that beam, there is no possible escape other then killing him, but you know, NB like to run away from zerg when they feast on their prey

3. Detected timer

I don't know for you guys, but I stay way much longer Detected in 1.6 then 1.5. Sometimes it take more then 3 minutes and I'm not joking here. Hiden in the mountain holding block and waiting. Trying to kill 1 wolf on the way still not help. Kinda random and longer then 1.5.

4. TTK is faster in 1.6

This point is obvious if you play PvP in 1.6 and I don't see this as an issue, because as a NB I like the way burst build have a chance against high defensive and substain build. In 1.5 I remember that stam burst build had literraly no chance against a decent player that play a substain build with shield / block or heal.

I'm happy with the TTK been faster, but I had to mention it too as a reason why it's harder to escape.

If ZoS could fix point 1, 2 and 3, roaming in Cyrodiil would be less frustrating as a NB.

Thanks for reading and feel free to add any of your points down here.

Grim13 · March 2015

I'd be ok with the 40 seconds if they made it so it only detected hidden players. Cloak should beat detect pots imho.

rendolpheb16_ESO · March 2015

Grim13 wrote: »

I'd be ok with the 40 seconds if they made it so it only detected hidden players. Cloak should beat detect pots imho.

Yep this could be another good alternative.

Your suggestion would make NB even stronger however.

TheBucket · March 2015

Yea. I was running potion builds a lot. Even Iagree that its to long

Grim13 · March 2015

rendolpheb16_ESO wrote: »

Grim13 wrote: »

I'd be ok with the 40 seconds if they made it so it only detected hidden players. Cloak should beat detect pots imho.

Yep this could be another good alternative.

Your suggestion would make NB even stronger however.

Yes and no.

Yes, because it would give a NB a genuine shot at getting away should he string more than one together (remember, Cloak still has to actually work first lol) and manage to outmanoeuvre his pursuers.

..and No, because the 40 seconds would still outlast the number of Cloaks a NB could string together... and, of course, Cloak still has to actually work first.

The_Drexill · March 2015

I agree with most of your post, though I'm ok with the detect pots. I do notice myself "Detected" for 3-5 minutes at times, no rhyme or reason... completely out of combat. And yes, Dark Cloak should stop a channeled spell.

Velcon · March 2015

Number 2 is my only problem. Bashing 2-3 templar in a 6 man group is too hard. I guess ZOS wants Cyrodiil to be all group play. Any group is now forced to kill templars first

Poxheart · March 2015

Until detect pots are change I suggest using immovable speed pots to counter. Coupled with the hasty retreat bow passive you can run far enough away that you should be able to LoS & then stealth. On Saturday my group chases some speed pot using NB that ran faster than a streaking Sorc.

It's not the perfect solution, but it's a work around until some changes are made.

ScruffyWhiskers · March 2015

Crippling grasp is now my go to speed boost. I've been trying double take out as well.

Elusive mist seems slower than before but that's probably just me. The text says that you are immune to control effects or something like that but snare and talons still seem to work on me when in mist form.

Biggest change to NB escape/evansion is stam drain while sneaking. Maybe it's just me but I am pretty sure they adjusted the stam drain for moving while stealthed as well. You run out of stam very quickly and I could almost swear that it gets worse the more you level up the first legerdemain skill. Nothing I can prove but it seems very different. Need somebody with a scientific mind to look at it.

Grim13 · March 2015

Honestly, it seems to me as if ZOS are trying to kill the whole Cloak / Stealth aspect of many a NB's playstyle.

1) They make 40 second detect pots.
2) They make an Alliance War Support skill that reveals hidden players.
3) They still haven't seen fit to fix Cloak and it's myriad problems.

What's next?

Wait until we all cease using Cloak and then replace it? lol

..and pretend it never happened?

rendolpheb16_ESO · March 2015

ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »

Crippling grasp is now my go to speed boost. I've been trying double take out as well.

Elusive mist seems slower than before but that's probably just me. The text says that you are immune to control effects or something like that but snare and talons still seem to work on me when in mist form.

Biggest change to NB escape/evansion is stam drain while sneaking. Maybe it's just me but I am pretty sure they adjusted the stam drain for moving while stealthed as well. You run out of stam very quickly and I could almost swear that it gets worse the more you level up the first legerdemain skill. Nothing I can prove but it seems very different. Need somebody with a scientific mind to look at it.

Elusive Form doesn't stack with Rapid Manoeuver anymore in 1.6. Elusive form give you immunity on Hard CC like Immovable do.

Snare and Immobilize always works on Elusive Form, because they are soft CC.

I suggest you take some times and do some pickpocketing in cities. You can have up to 40% sneak reduction as passif with this. By doing some math you could possibly walk stealth without any stam cost.

7 medium = 49% cost sneak reduction
Passif rank 4 Legerdemain = 40% cost sneak reduction
Champion system = 11%

100 cost sneak reduction.

Ffastyl · March 2015

The Devs have mentioned this as well as other forum-goers;
Invisibility is a tricky mechanic, as it is often set to break under a myriad of circumstances from taking damage to healing. This make invisibility almost useless save as a preemptive disengage. The most common fix for this is to make invisible players also invulnerable. No damage will get through to break the cloak. This fix would not go well in a competitive environment, as Dark Cloak would become the new Mist Form but without your abilities and healing negated.
ZOS has avoided Dark Cloak because it is such a fine fence to walk and neither side has something nice to fall on.

Grim13 · March 2015

Ffastyl wrote: »

The Devs have mentioned this as well as other forum-goers;
Invisibility is a tricky mechanic, as it is often set to break under a myriad of circumstances from taking damage to healing. This make invisibility almost useless save as a preemptive disengage. The most common fix for this is to make invisible players also invulnerable. No damage will get through to break the cloak. This fix would not go well in a competitive environment, as Dark Cloak would become the new Mist Form but without your abilities and healing negated.
ZOS has avoided Dark Cloak because it is such a fine fence to walk and neither side has something nice to fall on.

I COMPLETELY DISAGREE.

All Zenimax have to do is make Cloak so that it only breaks when the player using it attacks someone from it. Damage to the Cloaked player shouldn't break it.

FFS! It's a scant 3 seconds of invisibility that has numerous counters already.

Vizier · March 2015

Ffastyl wrote: »

The Devs have mentioned this as well as other forum-goers;
Invisibility is a tricky mechanic, as it is often set to break under a myriad of circumstances from taking damage to healing. This make invisibility almost useless save as a preemptive disengage. The most common fix for this is to make invisible players also invulnerable. No damage will get through to break the cloak. This fix would not go well in a competitive environment, as Dark Cloak would become the new Mist Form but without your abilities and healing negated.
ZOS has avoided Dark Cloak because it is such a fine fence to walk and neither side has something nice to fall on.

This is total hogwash. They have not avoided cloak and stealth. They have been actively engaged in totally dismantling cloak as a viable skill. Even in it's previous broken state some of us adapted and used it well combining it with speed so we could get away and break line of sight after spamming this very expensive 3 second skill. It was working for the most part.

Now? It is difficult in the extreme. 40 seconds to reveal EVERYTHING with a detection potion is too long and it's too cheap. Give a detection pot to a sorc streaking around or someone with rapid maneuvers and OMG. Good Night. No chance. Cloak should trump all detection methods. It should break on damage IMO but NOT for a dot or negative effect. If they can't do that then no damage should reveal the NB until the spell wears out. Detection pots should also have a visual effect that let those in the area it's been used.

DeLindsay · March 2015

Vizier wrote: »

Detection pots should also have a visual effect that let those in the area it's been used.

They could add that UI that the senche Tigers have in the Shadowfen quest area where you have to sneak around in a disguise but can't get to close to the Senche or they'd notice you. It's a little blue circle over their head iirc.

rendolpheb16_ESO wrote: »

7 medium = 49% cost sneak reduction
Passif rank 4 Legerdemain = 40% cost sneak reduction
Champion system = 11%

100 cost sneak reduction.

Yeah it doesn't quite work like that but it would be such a low Stamina cost that it would SEEM perma, so close enough. The Champion System is a % of what you already have, not a straight stackable value. Even with 7 Medium Sneak costs very little so adding the 40% from Legerdemain would reduce the cost to something like 2-3 Stamina/sec. You could get it low enough that all you'd have to do is pause for 2 seconds for regen to kick back in and have another long distance sneak marathon.

Tankqull · March 2015

Poxheart wrote: »

Until detect pots are change I suggest using immovable speed pots to counter. Coupled with the hasty retreat bow passive you can run far enough away that you should be able to LoS & then stealth. On Saturday my group chases some speed pot using NB that ran faster than a streaking Sorc.

It's not the perfect solution, but it's a work around until some changes are made.

this in combination with retreting maneuver you are faster than horses completly cc imune and gone in a heart blink.

what i think should be done is making cloaked NB undetectable by anything so they have to activly counter antistealth tools.

rendolpheb16_ESO · March 2015

Vizier wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

The Devs have mentioned this as well as other forum-goers;
...
Now? It is difficult in the extreme. 40 seconds to reveal EVERYTHING with a detection potion is too long and it's too cheap. Give a detection pot to a sorc streaking around or someone with rapid maneuvers and OMG. Good Night. No chance ...

This^

It's a question of time before all Sorc run around with detect potion and reveal everything.

rendolpheb16_ESO · March 2015

rendolpheb16_ESO wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

Ffastyl wrote: »

The Devs have mentioned this as well as other forum-goers;
...
Now? It is difficult in the extreme. 40 seconds to reveal EVERYTHING with a detection potion is too long and it's too cheap. Give a detection pot to a sorc streaking around or someone with rapid maneuvers and OMG. Good Night. No chance ...

This^

It's a question of time before all Sorc run around with detect potion and reveal everything.

Digiman · March 2015

Half and Half. While I think Radiant is really ridiculously OP the potions on the other hand are fine. They require ingredients and are limited in fuctionality.

Don't want to make something completely useless, especially when we have reveal flare and such.

As for getting away it isn't that hard to run like lightening behind something like everyother class to escape.

Most of the NB running just sit there or spend so much time thinking they could get away just because they are nightblades that they don't realize I am on their ass taking them apart where they would have a better chance trying to take me out.

If you can't gain distance against the target the best thing to do is to outlast them till you find an opening.

rendolpheb16_ESO · March 2015

Digiman wrote: »

Half and Half. While I think Radiant is really ridiculously OP the potions on the other hand are fine. They require ingredients and are limited in fuctionality.

Don't want to make something completely useless, especially when we have reveal flare and such.

As for getting away it isn't that hard to run like lightening behind something like everyother class to escape.

Most of the NB running just sit there or spend so much time thinking they could get away just because they are nightblades that they don't realize I am on their ass taking them apart where they would have a better chance trying to take me out.

If you can't gain distance against the target the best thing to do is to outlast them till you find an opening.

You definetly don't play a NB and know nothing about alchemy.

Detect potion are cheap to buy or create.

40sec detection when the cooldown on potion are 45 sec could mean you can have a perma detect 20m radius. Those who don't understand why detect potion are OP miss a core mechanic of the game, especially on NB.

When a NB try to vanish you just have to pop your detect potion and spam charge until your lovely zerg arrive to finish what you can't do by yourself.

This is only the a basic application of detect potion and I see more ''elaborate'' counter to stealther in 1.6. Like sorc on detect potion doing a sweap streak in the area. Trust me that detect potion is real pain for it's duration. I've experienced some counter NB on perma detect potion stealthing around the zerg to find any hidden ennemy.

The problem is not the fact that you can be detected by a detect potion that bother me, but it's duration that is totally stupid.

cozmon3c_ESO · March 2015

i agree that detect pots need to be returned to there 10 sec duration like in 1.5, they were strong even then. 40 second detect pots is just over the top and remove there situational use that made them balanced'er'ish, lol.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · March 2015

5. Cloak is the ability that has had and still has the most bugs associated with it in the game.

rendolpheb16_ESO · March 2015

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

5. Cloak is the ability that has had and still has the most bugs associated with it in the game.

I didn't make a point out of it, because we had this problem before 1.6. But I agree with you that this skill isn't top notch.

AltusVenifus · March 2015

I've personally stopped using the skill because potion invis + speed is 11 seconds long. It is the only viable escape for me.

Lava_Croft · March 2015

A year later, it's still Dark Joke.

Kode · March 2015

I agree with OP.

As a Nightblade I have come to terms with our lackluster ability to defend or self heal. This isnt a debate over that though... because we have evasion. We can dark cloak.
Given that every class has skills which define their defense, I would dare say that dark cloak defines Nightblade... And yet unlike any other class, our ability can be negated by a potion... and it is buggy as hell.
If Templars suddenly had crits hitting them through blazing shield, or if Green Dragon Blood couldn't be cast when your opponent was channeling an ability on you (like radiant destruction), those classes would be broken. And yet because Dark Cloak isn't conventional defense... it doesnt get the attention those skills would get. Yet is is a nightblade's most defining ability. If we are designed to be high offense and low defense, our very nature (and dare I even say lore in an RPG) is to avoid damage by not making ourselves a target. We choose our next opponent, we engage.

As previously stated. I believe radiant destruction should break when the target cloaks, cut and dry... exactly the way it breaks soul strike.
Dark cloak should not be defeated by potions.

Vizier · March 2015

Grim13 wrote: »

I'd be ok with the 40 seconds if they made it so it only detected hidden players. Cloak should beat detect pots imho.

I'd be Ok with that too but I really believe they need to up the time to 5-6 seconds for cloak spell duration.